SparedTurkey
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Posts posted by SparedTurkey
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Personally, I think any character on that show did much better when the writers were not paying too much attention to them. And Sue never stopping being so awful was more of a throwback to the show's black comedy roots IMO.
I do also appreciate that this show did include LGBT characters but I think it's importance was/is grossly overstated. Kurt, Finn and Blaine couldn't ever do anything wrong and always, always, won. While I guess in a way it is good 2 gay dudes got the lion's share of the limelight (with a straight white male FWIW) it was always at the expense of every other character. Women. Lesbians. POC. You know, the usual. Who were always written poorly in comparison
QuoteThe downside of that, though, was the show's attempt to make me feel sorry for her when she was outed in front of half the school because she finally made fun of Finn's weight one too many times
One of those things is not like the other just quietly.
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Not a current topic, but considering it is the anniversary of Glee's pilot episode airing or whatever, I thought I'd ask - now the dust has settled how d you think it didwhere do you think this show will end up being regarded as a depiction of LGBT themes? I mostly paid attention to Santana/Brittany and definately stopped after season 3 (with the odd exception for obvious reasons). I think they may have done an okay-ish job with Santana when all is said and done but that was definately unintention. Unlike many shows, she did end up with the girl of her dreams (lookinFaking it).
I grew to dislike Kurt and the story they were telling about him - though it was much much better in the first 13 episodes. And I really didn't like that his main adversary was a closeted gay teen. I thought that was the wrong message.
Thoughts?
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"Rapey" is not a word, and its use makes a mockery of the very real crime of rape. And "actual" rape as opposed what? Is that like that Republican politician a few years ago talking about "real" rape?
Seriously? Yes, if you read my posts, clearly I am just like a republican who only believes in 'real' rape. Whatever that may be.
Or perhaps, upon rereading the conversation and what I actually wrote, you'll see I merely declined to engage with the proposition that the 'male gaze' is 'rapey' preferring to use that word (if I have to, considering it is not a real word even though I didn't actually make it up) and all variations thereof when discussing sexual violence.
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I said the term 'male gaze' has a tone to it, because then you get into objectification, because of course a guy can't look at a partially-clothed woman without turning into an out-of-control sex maniac. Even if its only in his head.
Of course any discussion of 'male gaze' is related to objectification and it should be. However the last part of that sentence is deliberately inflamatory and designed to imply men are getting the rawest deal out of it. Men have been the cause of it and have been objectifying women for ages and being called out on it now should happen. Not every instance of female nudity is the result of the male gaze - but most is. If pointing that out makes people uncomfortable - good. They may eventually realise there is a problem and it may change. Although I won't get my hopes up.
I prefer to use terms like 'rapey' in discussions of actual rape so I will be leaving that alone.
I don't know, mostly I just find it absurd that American TV takes out the sex and leaves in the violence, which in itself is inherently hypocritical.
Perhaps it is representative of puritanical American values - you know, like the ones that inspire people to tell Kim Kardashian to put her clothes back on?
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I think there's no right answer to this. If you cast all white men, the folks who want more women and people of color in starring roles yell about sexism, but if you cast people who are not white men and kill them off, then many of the same people yell because the white guys didn't die. Which I guess would....be the preferred scenario? I don't know.
As someone else pointed out that is completely side-stepping the point. No one is arguing that all white male leads should die. The point is the female and/or POC characters are usually not as developed as the leading white male and their deaths are just used to further his story or his character. Find a show where women and POC are written well treated equally and you'll find less complaining when anyone is killed - like Spartacus.
The answer is that it is up to the writers and creators to decide what happens to their characters. I find it chilling that people are trying to dictate artistic expression because something makes them feel bad or doesn't meet with their approval. Censorship, whether practiced by government or social justice warriors is equally unacceptable.
That is...completely ridiculous and deserves all the calling out it gets. It's not censorship to say you don't like something, to explain why or to encourage people to be better.
I suppose there's such a thing as too much nakedness. Kim Kardashian, for instance, should wear more clothes when she's in public and stop taking nude pictures of herself.
Male and female naked bodies are not equal and have never been viewed as such. Pecs don't equate to boobs and won't until people stop viewing women as either a Madonna or a Whore. I don't particularly like any Kardashian but they can wear or not wear whatever they want and can take whatever pictures they want. They aren't making anyone look at it.
The concept of female nudity as it relates to TV is based on the idea that its simply to attract the male gaze, and while that's not inaccurate, there can be a certain, well, tone to the term male gaze.
So men are offended by the term 'male gaze' now? Good to know. I'll add it to the list of things oppressing them on a daily basis.
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Rewatching the first season a few things stand out:
1) Bill was always an arrogant, chauvinistic tool from the pilot to the end. He never grew or changed. He just was the same thing from beginning to end. He didn't have any respect for any of his wives. In that respect he is as similar to any of the Compound men. Ben however, wasn't always an ass. He was just a normal teenage boy in the beginning but eventually changed to becoming just like Bill. Not a positive.
2) After watching how paranoid they were about being revealed as polygamists in the first season there is just NO way they would run for Senate. They were terrified Pam + Carl knew about them and immediately went on the offensive. And that was just when they were worried about opening a second store
3) Barb and Marjie irritated me always, but I always wanted them to run away and be free from the beginning. And to take Nicki to counselling because of course she was damaged after being Roman's daughter, JJ's ex and then sold like chattel to Bill. And for Sarah to run away to university with Heather. Heather always deserved a better Henrickson than Ben.
4) There is just NO way they would escape criminal/legal consequences after their Senate run. Nicki for sure would be investigated for her part on the Roman trial. No WAY would that be left alone. Margie's age wouldn't be able to be swept under the rug with a new ID - the media would have found that out within a week.
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I wish there were people around for a rewatch. This was a very well made show for the most part.
Bill is such a selfish asshole. He reminds me so much of Jim Bob Duggar it's scary. The fact that he drug his family into the spotlight with no consideration for the effects it would have on their income, Don, the kids, the wives, etc. is mind-blowing.
He truly is. And got worse with every passing season. I couldn't ever tell who I felt worse for out of anyone around him. Except Frank. And you could tell Ben was just going to turn into the spittig image - it would have been good to see more of Barb's reaction to that.
Rhonda was hilarious...and sad. I wonder how true to life that was.
I have a soft spot for Nikki...before they made her ridiculous.
I do with Barb and Margene had left together - much like Sarah.
There is absolutely no way Bill would have gotten through an election campaign without the polygamy leaking. No way at all.
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They did Monica Reyes dirty in this episode. There is no way the character last left in 2000 would have followed CSM without nasty nasty blackmail in play. No. Way. She loved Scully way too much, delivered William among possible-nasty aliens/their followers, helped spring Mulder from prison....I can only assume she had a reason - like she knew CSM was onto Williams' whereabouts and joined him to spy/save William when needed. That's the only way I can reconcile it. That and they were banking on a season 11 because there is no way Scully would hear her confession of working for CSM and still call her a friend...let alone a trusted one.
Thats my hope anyway because if not...that would be exactly the role for Marita...who was turned away because they 'didn't have a part for her'.
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I think Stef has been shown to change a little, especially since the convo with Lena in the last finale. She has been more responsive to being challenged - about the mastectomy and this episode about her anger. In an earlier season she wouldn't have listened to anyone about much. I don't mind her not listening to the kids' opinions because they tend to be wrong.
And even though Jesus looks 23 and is hanging out with a 30-year-old looking friend, he is still only supposed to be 15? So I'd be pissed if I was his parent coming home drunk....of course I hold an unpopular opinion of thinking the show lets Brandon get away with too much, considering the pot episode (which did Stef know about? Because if not that at least shows some continuity with Lena how being too critical). And I would be more pissed he was knowingly going back to Gabe with all those consequences at play.
And really, Callie's bill support is going to blow up in her face. And they dont have enough reason for why she is throwing Rita under the bus for the lady from The Practice. Shes not more charismatic that Rita and Rita has proved her knowledge and her metal - which is why Callie I assume organised a fundraiser for her not 2 weeks ago in this timeline?
I still love Mariana, dislike her taste in men.
Not interested in the whole trigger thing - but to the poster above I assume this episode included a warning about suicide because it directly showed a suicide attempt and they are legally required to put out a warning about that. At least they are in Australia.
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Maybe I don't know anything about having a sibling - but if one of my parents had just died (leaving aside any notion of suicide) and my sibling told me I was the reason for it...well, I would have nothing more to do with that person ever. I don't care how sad they are.
That said, this is the kind of story they should have for Henry. Not a distract-Elizabeth-from-her-job. But something grounded and more relatable than being Captain Arm-Candy-Most-Feelingist-Best Spy-Ever etc.
Although not loving that Henry knew about the 'Queen Elizabeth' nonsense and never said anything to anyone about it. In saying that, Stevie redeemed herself for me for not only being on Bess' side during that, but talking to her afterwards and then calling Uncle Whats-his-face?
I also love Blake. And Nadine. Which can stay. The rest, if they sing, maybe.
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I do appreciate that whatever ridiculous storyline happens on this show no matter how soapy or dumb...I love and really appreciate that on the show and in all media stuffs, that Sherri Saum and Teri Polo never ever give interviews or ever seem in photos for the show, and at media events - that they are ever uncomfortable with each other, need to pretend they are straight or anything dumb.
After growing up during the late 80's/90's and watching every single homosexual-character playing actor ever take great pains to assure their 'fans'/'audience' know they weren't gay or at all interested at all ever....if nothing else (which it is) this show is a lot different....and worth being acknowledged.
That said....More mum storylines!!!!! (sans cheating...it's just been done)
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This thread may get moved but oh well - here is my two cents.
2. Does it make sense that Commander Kate had too failed marriages? I am not sure how she would have crammed those marriages into her decorated past. Did her personality change along with her haircut? Should the deputy of national security be sporting cleavage in the situation room?
Why not and why does it matter? Marraiges aren't forever. A year here or a year there. Completely doable. Look at Hollywood. Plus, if the reason for the divorces were the time constraints of both jobs then its pretty easy to imagine a few divorces. Plus wasn't Kate like mid-late 30s?
I didn't see her with much cleavage unless you mean her dress for Ellie's wedding? I didn't think she was ever unprofessional.
3. Is Will a cad or did he really care about Kate? I am referring to the line where Kate asks what does all their sexually activity mean and Will says "that you are a really good date." Doesn't Kate realized that she is a 10 and Will is a 5, and two of those points thrown in for his steady job and height?
So, I don't like Will. I think it was a mismatch. Kate was much much better.
4. Does it make any sense to you that Tobey would have linked confidential information to the press? Do you think he is covering for someone?
I think he was - and I think Richard Schiff thought so at the time also. I vaguely remember the some agreement at TWOP being that he had done it on Jed's order. I personally wonder if the original storyline was for it to be CJ but it got changed at the last minute.
And no, it definately was not Andi. If Toby didn't have clearance for the information she sure as shit didn't either.
Maybe the brother's widow, but how would she have known it existed?
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So the question is - is a happy medium possible? If, in fact, the character goes through with terminating a pregnancy, no matter how questionable or even sleazy* the circumstances that brought the pregnancy about were, without wringing her hands about it, is she (read: the writers) required to never mention it again? If the subject isn't cause for soul searching, it also shouldn't be a cause for shame. Because while the scenario you're suggesting is both realistic and pragmatic, it also doesn't make good fodder for drama.
First - the scenario I suggested has nothing to do with with 'shaming' a woman for having an abortion - just the opposite.
Regarding a happy medium, yes it is possible and largely comes down the most common refrain in this thread - variety. Sure it is dramatic to have a slow song over an actress crying, or having a dramatic discussion about her options etc. It however, is not the only experience. Why was Claire in Please Like Me written the way she was? Because Josh Thomas knew he knew nothing really about the subject and, wait for it, asked and researched. That's why it was different than most other depictions. We don't have to be satisfied with the one abortion trope getting repeated over and over just because its 'dramatic'.
Put it this way - if abortion was treated in the same was as a white male on television, you can bet we would have had a number of different portrayals of the experience.
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Is Britain (or at least British television) more liberal on the subject in general?
I was guessing that Australian tv doesn't quite the same take on the event that American tv tends to.
For what it is worth, Australia (and as far as I can tell, England) hasn't made abortion a political issue in the same way America has. Australia never decriminalised abortion and the last big debate I remember was in the 2000s about whether we would let people have access to RU486 (we did, eventually). But we don't have an Australian version of Roe v Wade that every political candidate has to go through. Our abortion clinics aren't blown up or shot at (though, we do also have better gun laws than America does but yeah). And there was no scandal about Please Like Me's storyline.
Y'know, maybe its just my inner Abbie Carmichael talking, but I'm pro-choice and am still a little uncomfortable at the turn this discussion is taking. Far be it for me to suggest that all women change their minds about carrying pregnancies to term, but is it really that unbelievable that many women do, even fictional women?
Yes. As other people have pointed out fictional women are the creation of a writer's room (usually men) and their response to a pregnancy is to make whatever point the writer's want. And it's too much of a trope at this point for them to discuss abortion but not actually have a character go through it so as to not make the audience turn on her. Having their cake and eating it too
And you know, it would be nice to see it happen to someone, as a B story, where they find out they are pregnant and just get an abortion. No hand wringing, no soul searching - because trust me. Not every woman feels regret or needs to discuss whether or not she made the biggest mistake of her life. That is a story I would like to see.
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Me too. That takes some real guts. As for David, he's come a long way. He's grown up.
I dont really blame him for the response way back when the contracts at the time of the pilot were being signed, considering he was right at the time it was contracted - he was, technically (and however small it was) a bigger "star" than she was. It was, however, shitty for him to then follow through with all that crap about Demi Moore and whatever when she was renegotiating - especially when they were both done with the show but left her contracted through seasons 8&9 when he was free and clear. He should have taken a leaf out of the Friends booklet.
That said, good on Gillian Anderson for standing up for herself now, especially that she knows what she is worth and is not afraid to say it - before signing. They both made The X Files and there is absolutely no reason why Fox or whever should have even thought one was not worth as much as the other.
But more on topic - with every special, trailer or spoiler I get even more excited. I feel like this is going to be awesome.
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Does anyone know if the original idea for the leak story was for it to be CJ? It seemed more than implied at the end of season 6. Or was it just to infer a CJ/Greg Brock affair? It does seem like it suddenly switched gears when Toby decided to 'get a lawyer'.
Also, I love Margaret. I love that she was exactly the same assistant for CJ as she was for Leo. Her disdain when Babish ignored her directives was classic Margaret. I always wished that if I were in a position to have an assistant that it would be one like Margaret. Plus, her analysis of CJ's handwriting was hilarious and a slight callback to her assertion that she could forge both Leo's and the President's signature.
I also felt like Kate could do better than Will - but I liked him much better when he was running the campaign for the dead guy than when he was in the White House. Also, if he was so smart why the hell did he hitch his wagon to Russell?
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I don't like the overwhelming need to put the blame on the actress for JJ's rise to stardom and subsequent decline of the show's quality. I don't care if people don't like the character or how she has changed - I don't particularly either. But I don't think it is fair to blame the actress who has nothing to do with writing or producing the show. Would she like the changes and more screen time? I imagine absolutely -if for no other reason than it would be more protection than being summarily fired for not being young enough. But blaming her for the decline of he quality of the show - when it has been 11 years and the writers have been there for a huge number of years and don't have any original stories? Not fair. Unless AJ Cook has been secretly writing and executive-producing the show for the last 6 years - not her fault.
Also there is a disproportionate level of vitriol aimed at JJ/AJ Cook that is not levelled at Morgan/Shemar (who has been doing the same thing since day 1) or Hotch/Thomas (who also directs the show on occasion) or Matthew Gubler(who has written episodes since season 5). Plus, Prentiss used to bust down doors with Morgan - not much of a difference.
I'm not saying people need to love JJ. I don't like Morgan, Garcia or Gideon. I preferred JJ before season 6. But I am saying the actress does not deserve the blame for the way the show is going/how her character has been written.
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I liked Prentiss/anyone. I liked her with Hotch, Reid, Rossi, Penelope, Jordan. I thought she made Morgan tolerable. Not saying I wanted her to hook up with anyone, but it was nice. A solid representation of a working female character - able to get shit done without doing something she didn't want or 'allowing' it to happen or having to be 'in love' with someone. Also one of the only team members to stand up to Gideon. For whatever reason they thought he could do no wrong and I liked that she pointed out when he missed something.
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Love Chinga. It's funny and creepy and Scully has never looked better.
I love the Maine shirt, the jeans and an blazer.
Even more I love Mulder without Scully and Scully without Mulder. Where Scully runs through all paranormal theories she can think of and Mulder asks if the doll has a string in the back.
It is not the best episode at all but it is funny. And more than anything I love Stephen King's first draft, where Mulder and Scully are even more obviously having it off than anything....before 1013 got their mitts on it.
I know this ep gets a bad rep in fandom, but still. I will watch it.
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Agreed. Yeah, digging shrapnel out of other people's kids doesn't give you a pass for refusing to go home to see your own kid. That's so NOT a thing you can make that kind of a deal about.
Well - to be fair - if he was up front about how he didn't want kids I think that makes him less of a deadbeat dad. And I don't think he would have been backwards in coming forward. Perhaps the wife should have gone and had a baby with someone that wanted to have kids. Otherwise - she knew what she was getting.
I swear last year this show would have had Ivan living out his new life in the USA as a proudly gay man. I like that this time it didn't end up such a fairytale. It couldn't have. There was too many issues there.
Also, I'm with those who doesn't think Elizabeth took her brother fly-fishing just to get info from her brother. I think it was a legitimate trying to repair damages thing but she couldn't let go what she learnt talking to him.
Also - loved her secret service's WTF look when they put their fishing lines in the car. I'd like an episode from their point of view. I reckon they would be gold.
I also liked that the ep had nothing with the two co-worker relationship crap. Made the show much much better.
Also - shouldn't Ostrov be Ostrovna? Don't Russian women have a feminine ending to their last names?
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I do not understand how Professor Arm Candy has a higher clearance than M-Sec. That just does not ring true at all - particularly when it involves bringing home ostracised Russian-Oliarch daughters and the potential impact that may have on current state affairs. There is no way she wouldn't be told if she asked.
That said - I love that their marriage isn't suffering for it. That would be boring and something I have seen before.
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I'm inclined to think Xena is Aries daughter for all the reasons dangled in front of us during that Furies episode.
....... So she's been making out with her dad for most of her life?
I know this show is messy and jumps with timelines - but no. Nope. No. It's not Game of Thrones
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(1) every baby needs his or her father;
Oh please. A baby needs one loving parent. Any more is a bonus, gender be damned. I'd rather see Finn become a parental figure - because the relationship is there and it would be funny - rather than damn another male character for 'political reasons'. Or because Rollins slept with the father. Hell. Amanda can do it alone - if Olivia can with all her baggage what stops her?
Course, after this episode, Rollins should just give away any idea of getting anyone from Altanta to help her.
And yeah, if Olivia and Stabler were never fired - or Amaro - there is no way she should be.
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I did love how in the first episode of S4 we see that Pacey has this need to be controlling over Joey outside of their summer sailing love fest. He tries to drag her away just b/c he doesn't want to deal w/ anybody anymore so he tries to keep her to himself and nobody else. I never thought they made a good pairing, and this just showed how bad they were together.
To be fair though.....who in the world would want to deal with Dawson. Ever?
LGBT Themes, Stories And Characters On TV
in Everything Else TV
Hmm yeah I don't agree with that interpretation and there was nothing about that storyline that painted Santana as a 'hero'. Rather, Finn remained the hero. Personally I found this storyline to be one of the worst on Glee ever and makes me hope it doesn't go down in history as even one of the best gay shows ever made.
Finn outed Santana because she made fun of him. While I don't condone bullying (even though Sue/Santana's verbal tirades did seem more like season 1 and is indicative of the fact the show didn't even know whether bullying should be taken seriously or used for comedy thats not the point) the show had a white, heterosexual male use a WOC's sexuality as a weapon. And what happened? Nothing to Finn. He never apologised to her and no other character pointed out to him that forcibly outing someone is never okay and borders on dangerous. Rather, he blackmailed her in to sitting in a Glee club lesson while everyone else sung to her when she was clearly not okay with it because HE wanted her too. This of course, is after Kurt asserting to Karofsky that he would never out him - after violent and physical bullying. Why? Because lesbians don't count and it's more important for men?
I find this storyline both sexist and homophobic. I think the interpretation that Santana deserved it to be equally repulsive. Why did Finn not go to Schue about the bullying? Figgins? Why did he find her being a lesbian something viable to use as a weapon? Particularly after all that happened with Kurt, his step-brother? Particuarly knowing the school was not even tolerant? Without knowing what Santana would face at home? But no - Finn knows best I guess.
Just to reiterate - I get that Finn lashed out because he was sad and frustrated and Santana shouldn't have teased him. But his response was inexcusable and disproportionate.
If even a show like Faking It can point out outing isn't okay - you would have thought Glee would have. Particularly as the show itself lauded itself as the best and most positive representation of LGBT themes and was changing the tv landscape. Well, maybe for gay white men only.