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SueB

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Posts posted by SueB

    S09.E01: I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here

    in Supernatural

    Thinking some more on the season opening montage, they foreshadowed the major theme of the season big time.  We ended S8 with 'hugging it out in a church' but it wasn't really resolved.  So S9 just broke apart the Winchesters and put the brotherly love into question.  No wonder it ended in complete disaster.  Makes me REALLY curious for what happens in the S10 opening montage. 

    • Love 1

    Supernatural Survival Game

    in Supernatural

    -- Something Wicked

    -- The Benders

    + Faith

     

    52 - Pilot
    49 - Scarecrow
    16 - Faith

    15 - Something Wicked
    12 - The Benders

    09 - Dead in the Water

     

    GANKED:
    Route 666
    Bugs
    Provenance
    Dead Man's Blood
    Hook Man
    Nightmare
    Asylum
    Wendigo
    Hell House
    Bloody Mary
    Home
    Salvation
    Shadow
    Phantom Traveler
    Devil's Trap
    Skin

    S09.E01: I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here

    in Supernatural

    I rewatched.  The Dean at the start of this season versus the Dean at the end is a shocking difference.  And it's so telling that the voiceover from Charlie is that there is nothing the Winchesters can't do when they work together.  Combined with "Who Do You Love" as the song.  ANVILS! 

     

    I think Crowley stinking it up in that trunk is when he started planning revenge. 

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

     

    There is no way to spin this that works for me where Dean's entire arc has not been rendered meaningless :(:(:(

    Oh I think there are plenty of good ways to spin it ultimately that has Dean rising from the ashes. 

     

    On culpability -- well how culpable are souls that are ultimately tortured into a demon?  Since most earned themselves a ticket to Hell, getting turned into a demon is a byproduct so they kinda own it.  But not all demons are mindless evil.  Meg seemed to be capable of true loyalty (to Lucifer but ... work with me). And then she made her cause Team Free Will.  Mostly because they were simultaneously Team Screw Crowley.  But still... some demons seem capable of some agency.  And Cain clearly was seeking forgiveness for his past acts.  

     

    So does Dean DESERVE to be turned into a demon?  Well he took on the Mark of Cain, which was given to Cain by Lucifer.  Dude was playing with fire.  Period.  He did it for the right reasons but road to hell is paved with them.  But Dean's heart was still good.  He wasn't trying for power for power's sake.  So...even though he got burned by the fire that he played with (the Mark), doesn't mean he can't be saved from it ultimately. 

     

    So, once again, it's Dean's unique strength of character IMO that will ultimately serve him.  He KNOWS right from wrong.  Unerringly most of the time.  What he lacks is faith in his own worthiness.  That's the journey he needs to go on.  To BELIEVE he deserves to be saved.  I would love that if that was the outcome of this story. 

     

    ACK!  You caught me speculating.  No promises that the writers are remotely thinking of this.

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    I don't really even understand how this has happened. I thought that, in order for the whole 'black eyes' thing to happen, you had to have been possessed, from outside, by the smokey essence of a demon from hell. This clearly did not happen for Dean. So, when he was killed, was his soul ejected but then boomeranged back into his body as a damned/demony soul due to the MoC? If so, how? And did the anti-possession tattoo not work because, even damaged/altered, it still was DEAN'S soul, not a third party's?

    As Morrigan2575 said, he's not possessed, he BECAME a demon as is a different breed like Cain. In First Born when Dean asked Crowley, "what do you mean he 'became' a demon", Crowley cleverly changed the subject from HOW he became a demon to how deadly he was (the omission he was referring to in 9.23) .  He's no longer human, he's a different species.  He has retained the same corporeal form with the Mark branded into him.  And that is about all the "facts" we have.  Even if we didn't have the occasional LOLcanon issue, they made Cain's original story so very very vague that they can go in a hundred different directions.  Plus Dean's circumstances are not the exact same as Cain's.

     

    Differences:

    - Cain made a DEAL. He agreed to go to Hell if Abel could go to Heaven.  Dean agreed to take on the Mark to kill Abaddon.  He blatantly did NOT want to know the consequences but he didn't actually sign away his soul.  I think that's important.

    - Cain murdered Abel.   Dean didn't murder an innocent (although I still think the #Thinman kill was close because he could have chosen to capture vs kill, it wasn't with the Blade).

    - Cain committed suicide. Dean was murdered.  Now Dean certainly entered into the confrontation w/ Metatron like a man on a suicide mission BUT even beatedn bloody he was still grabbing the blade to try and kill Metatron. 

    When it comes to matters of the soul, I really think the show has been consistent that intent matters. Dean was considered the Righteous Man in hell, even though he sold his soul.  God granted Dean Salvation (per Joshua) even after the torture.  So, the 64000 question is the state of Dean's soul IMO?

     

    Lilith, Azazel, Allastair, Crowley, Abaddon, etc.. were are standard issue demons of greater power.  I say "standard issue" because they smoked out.  They had to have a meat suit to be corporeal.  Their soul was twisted in Hell to become demons whose form appears as black/red smoke.

     

    My speculation: Dean's soul, like Cain's was more "infected" than "twisted".  The Mark, to use the oft-referenced drug analogy, pumped killer poison into their veins. This "poison" was metaphysical.  It has both a physical element and a supernatural element.  The physical side effects were obvious, the supernatural element was ... PERHAPS... a poisoning of the metaphysical soul. 

     

    As I stated earlier... they can go in a 100 directions w/ Dean at this point. Maybe he's rabid to start off with and then gets control?  Maybe he's "Dean" unchained right from the start.  Maybe he's a Crowley puppet at the beginning.  IDK.  They'll go for the most drama, the most heart-rending, and most shocking approach they can think of I suspect.   

    Supernatural Survival Game

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by SueB

    Back from a three-day vacation...A moment of silence for "Skin".  It had a fantastic start and kickass twists... OTOH, I have permanent mental teeth trauma from seeing this episode it so it eventually had to be killed off IMO....

     

    Pilot --

    Faith +

    Something Wicked --

     

    51 - Pilot
    50 - Scarecrow

    20 - Faith

    18 - Something Wicked
    16 - The Benders
    13 - Dead in the Water

     

    GANKED:
    Route 666
    Bugs
    Provenance
    Dead Man's Blood
    Hook Man
    Nightmare
    Asylum
    Wendigo
    Hell House
    Bloody Mary
    Home
    Salvation
    Shadow
    Phantom Traveler
    Devil's Trap
    Skin

    S09.E23: Do You Believe In Miracles?

    in Supernatural

     

    OL. I wasn't saying you were wrong, I wasn't sure. I remember salt keeps demons at bay but not that it would kill them or anything.  Dean tortured Alastair with salt and holy water but it didn't kill him.  So I think it damages but doesn't kill?

    I think this is right.

     

    Thinky thoughts based on another watching:

    - I find Crowley incredibly fascinating right now.  Moose HATES him at this point.  While Dean is obviously willing to work with him.  But he didn't take too kindly to being treated like demon minion #3.  And does being "Winchestered" mean that you are always a second class citizen to Sam and Dean if you are not Sam or Dean?  In which case -- I want him to commiserate with Castiel who was thrown out of the bunker in 9.03.  Anyway, I've read theories about how turning Dean into a demon was a long con by Crowley for revenge.  That he views Dean as a version of trainable hellhound-like weapon.  I'm not sure I buy that.  I've always found Crowley to be honest in his dishonesty.  He will absolutely exploit loopholes (just for the hell of it) but generally sticks to his agreements.  They've really emphasized that this year.  So the loophole with the Mark was 1) not telling Dean he played him to get the Mark in the first place, and 2) failing to mention precisely how and why Cain became a demon.  But when he said he didn't know how it was going to turn out --- I believed him. 

    - Which leads me to 'What was it about not eating the Cheeseburger that let Crowley believe Dean would resurrect as a demon?'  He knew Dean was yakking due to MoC influence.  Was it because Dean should have been hungry and his body was transforming away from needing food?  IDK.  But there's something there.  He also 'suspected' when Dean summoned him.  Was it because Dean summoned him or the yak smell when he got in the room? Yak smell implied physical transformation.  Just the choice to summon Crowley implies something to do with volition. So if the hope Crowley got was due to Dean's choice, then what did not eating the Cheeseburger mean?  That Dean was single minded (NOT a news flash)?     I'd appreciate any thoughts on this conundrum; did Crowley suspect Dean would resurrect "demon" due to the choices Dean was making or the physical transformation Crowley was witnessing?

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

     

    but the boys have made an Olympic sport out of needlessly hiding things from one another and it always turns out bad

    This one is pretty hard to miss though.  If Dean is anything but a cold corpse, he's going to have to explain being alive.  Sure, he could say "suddenly resurrected by Mark of Cain" but will he have to avoid Devil's Traps? I could see many things NOT working like they didn't against Alastair or YED.  But the Devil's trap bullet worked on Abaddon and Crowley.  So... hiding demon-ness in a completely warded bunker seems improbable.  Like, could he even get back in unescorted once he left?  

    Supernatural Survival Game

    in Supernatural

    + Faith

    -- Skin

    -- Something Wicked

     

    50 - Pilot
    49 - Scarecrow
    27 - Faith
    24 - Dead in the Water
    24 - Something Wicked
    17 - The Benders
    05 - Skin

     

    GANKED:
    Route 666
    Bugs
    Provenance
    Dead Man's Blood
    Hook Man
    Nightmare
    Asylum
    Wendigo
    Hell House
    Bloody Mary
    Home
    Salvation
    Shadow
    Phantom Traveler
    Devil's Trap

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    Yep. Black Eyed Boy.

     

    *sigh*

     

    To say they can go in a dozen different directions is an understatement.  I've come to learn that speculation without any spoilers just sets up misalighed expectations so I'll wait for S10 hints before speculating. 

    Supernatural Survival Game

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by SueB

    -- Something Wicked

    + Faith

    -- Skin

     

    49 - Scarecrow
    49 - Pilot
    25 - Dead in the Water
    25 - Faith
    22 - Something Wicked
    17 - The Benders
    11 - Skin

     

    GANKED:
    Route 666
    Bugs
    Provenance
    Dead Man's Blood
    Hook Man
    Nightmare
    Asylum
    Wendigo
    Hell House
    Bloody Mary
    Home
    Salvation
    Shadow
    Phantom Traveler
    Devil's Trap

    S09.E23: Do You Believe In Miracles?

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by SueB

     

    catrox14, have no fear.  The Winchesters have died more than anyone else and basically have an E-ZPass to make their roundtrips through heaven, hell and purgatory quicker.

    This.  It'll be okay.  I'm really curious to see how "Dean" is "Dean".  He was so utterly AWESOMELY Dean at the end. 

     

    ETA LOVED the ep.  More commentary post rewatch. 

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

     

    At this point, I am not prepared for Demon!Dean.  I am just so not. I am also not thrilled with the idea of a time reset or do-over or something else.  But then I'm also not in the least bit ready for Dean or Cas or Sam to die a really most sincerely dead death either.  But I also think one of the boys not dying would be cheating.

     

    Fuck this show. I love you, show.

     

    You tell 'em.  Hee.  I totally understand. 

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    Final shoe fell into place for me after listening to Women of Letter's podcast.  They mentioned a spoiler that Jared got Jensen's shoulder wet from crying.  In fact, I feel like this is so close that I'm keeping this spec under a spoiler tag.

     

    So if using a spoiler tag in the spoiler thread is a no-no, I'll delete it: But the WoL podcast led me in a direction both surprising and yet obvious:

    parenthesis inidicates (where I got the idea)

    - Dean kills Metatron so he feels he's done (me based on promo photo) OR he tries and can't with the blade (alt. theory... me)
    - Dean is so broken he tries to commit suicide or begs Sam to do it (WoL) but Sam won't let him (WoL) Thus proving Sam really wouldn't have made a different decision than Dean did in 9x01.
    - Saving Dean results in Dean going Demon-adjacent (WoL)
    My variant
    - Dean begs Sam to kill him as he's an out of control monster and a sobbing Sam, holding Dean and telling him how much he loves him, stabs him with an Angel blade. (Me...+last 5 seconds)
    - Dean dies briefly. (Me)
    - Dean opens his eyes and they are black (the entire internet + last second + eye opener).
    Cake & eat it too variant:
    - Dean begs Sam to kill him, Sam refuses, Dean impales himself on an Angel blade to prevent Sam from having to do it and Dean goes demon.

    THUS:
    - Sam wasn't really lying, under certain circumstances Sam would let Dean die. Just like Dean found his "line" in S4 when he said he would let Sam die rather than become a monster (When the Levee Breaks).
    - Dean's a demon, Sam has demonstrated his love, Cas is ... probably watching, and either Metatron is dead (most likely) or he's slipped off and Heaven is still closed.

    Of course if this is right ..sorry. If I'm wrong.. laugh at me because I deserve it.

    Supernatural Survival Game

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by SueB

    Faith +

    Skin --

    Something Wicked --

     

    47 - Scarecrow
    47 - Pilot
    28 - Dead in the Water

    27 - Faith

    25 - Something Wicked

    16 - The Benders

    14 - Skin

     

    GANKED:
    Route 666
    Bugs
    Provenance
    Dead Man's Blood
    Hook Man
    Nightmare
    Asylum
    Wendigo
    Hell House
    Bloody Mary
    Home
    Salvation
    Shadow
    Phantom Traveler
    Devil's Trap

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by SueB

     

    I don't agree that you should be able to change your species.

    Important safety tip.  I agree.  :)

     

    Since Jensen said "twist" and "shocked" in that TV fanatic interview (thanks for that BTW!), I think we'll be surprised. He's not prone to hype in general.  Although the "eye's open" (different interview) seems like a COMPLETE spoiler.  And Jared's emphasis on long-lasting? I'm still giving 10 to 1 odds: Demon Dean.

    S09.E22: Stairway To Heaven

    in Supernatural

    · Edited by SueB

    I think Dean is speculating.  On the other hand, he KNEW he'd kill Abaddon so maybe there is something in his mojo that gives him a sense of these things.  Obviously it kills Reaper-class Angels and injured Gadreel. 

     

    Little bits I picked up from finally getting to do a proper rewatch:

    - Dean turns away when Tessa impales herself.  He looked straight into Zacharia's eyes OTOH when he stabbed him thru the neck.  To me, that doesn't mean she shed a more powerful light but that he didn't want the kill.  Of course, whether or not he wanted the kill, he still has a killgasm.  (THERE, I said it, you ALL were thinking it.... Dean has a kill-gasm when the blade dumps whatever pleasure-mojo it dumps into his system.  Someone even pointed out he licks his LIPS at the end. As in... tasty).  That's like 6 kinds of wrong and 6 kinds of hot. 

    - Sam was coming back into the room and spotted Gadreel. So while I was unhappy he walked away from Dean (because it seemed a wee bit childish), upon reflection I think he walked away to figure out what Dean said (because he can't just take anything at face value now that he knows about the Mark's effect) and dump his stuff in his room.  Then he came back to continue working.  Whether or not he was going to argue the topic or discuss with Cas later we don't know because Gadreel showed up.

    - Jesus Christ Superstar was the musical Tessa was going to torch.  I kind thought those tunes were catchy... yeesh, Tessa...harsh.

     

    I wonder if Death is not bothering fixing this mess this time because he's done cleaning up "Team Free Will" messes.  I can see him not having much tolerance there. 

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

     

    I just find it so depressing that 'fangirls' have more creativity and skill with plot/characters than 'professional' writers...

    I'm just going to try (note, it's unlikely I'll live up to this) and NOT get to far into speculation land over the summer because you are right --- they surprise us everytime. Personally I LIKED the start of S8 and just wish we had more Purgatory flashbacks.  But I totally get MMV.

     

    I fully expect S9 to end DARK. 

    Supernatural Survival Game

    in Supernatural

    Faith +

    Something Wicked --

    The Benders --

     

    46 - Scarecrow
    45 - Pilot
    28 - Faith

    27 - Dead in the Water

    26 - Something Wicked
    18 - Skin
    15 - The Benders
    02 - Devil's Trap

     

    GANKED:
    Route 666
    Bugs
    Provenance
    Dead Man's Blood
    Hook Man
    Nightmare
    Asylum
    Wendigo
    Hell House
    Bloody Mary
    Home
    Salvation
    Shadow
    Phantom Traveler

    Spoilers With Speculation

    in Supernatural

    The only issue I have is that I don't really see black-eyed Dean as a big cliffhanger. I mean, I won't be disinterested to see where they go next, but I won't be on the edge of my seat all summer either. So, J2M are either way over-selling the finale or it's something really big which hasn't been suggested here yet, IMO.

    I'm not sure they know how much we've speculated on a Demon Dean. So, the first time you hear a concept wouldn't it be way more cool than if you'd been speculating on it for weeks? Mabe were just more prepared than they know?

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