[Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard]

Except the odd thing is that they hadn't ever actually established Red as lesbian. All her previous relationships that they've shown were with men. She flirted heavily with men and was dating Billy/Gus-Gus during the curse, but even before that she had the boyfriend she unintentionally killed when she was a wolf, when they thought he was the wolf and he was chained up while she wasn't. Then there seemed to be some flirting/bonding with Whale, and in a deleted scene she was giving Hook an appreciative look. They didn't give even the slightest hint that she might have a different orientation or might be questioning her orientation until they brought her back to spark with Mulan last fall. It was like they just picked the only unattached recurring female character to pair with Mulan, only to then pull a bait-and-switch and throw her at Dorothy, instead. So that makes it come across like "if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, maybe you're a lesbian." If Dorothy was her first same-sex attraction, then there needed to be even more development to get from zero to True Love.

 

 

I don't remember there being any development in terms of establishing Red as same-sex attracted. And I am really tired of shows that have women (always women - never men) suddenly decide to have a lesbian relationship when they've never shown any interest in the same sex before. I don't see any male characters suddenly having a homosexual romance out of nowhere. I could touch on the reasons why but I might start ranting and that never looks good.

 

 

I thought I was the only one confused by Red's sudden lesbianism. There were no indicators of it in her previous relationships. She was the town slut before the curse if I'm remembering correctly. Well according to granny anyway.

 

 

I never said she wasn't bisexual. I said she'd never shown any same-sex attraction before that I'd seen. And this ongoing "women are all secretly bisexual" crap TV has been feeding us is annoying as hell.

 

 

I completely agree with you about how shows push the all women are secretly bisexual, or at least we all want to experiment thing. That is male fantasy not reality.

 

it adds to the wondering, why wasn't it Mulan and Dorothy. They have at least hinted at an interest in women in Mulan with the whole Aurora thing. So it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue. I'd love to know why they decided to use Red for this storyline.

 

 

That pretty much says it all.  It was so undeveloped, it could practically have been anybody.  Merida and Dorothy.  Rapunzel and Mulan.  Red and the Blind Witch.  It just felt random.

 

 

I suppose I can hand wave the fact that Ruby was written and shown as being into men, flirty, etc., as being a part of the curse. Just as the curse broke apart couples, it could have given her that sort of background where she was in constant search for a good time with men rather than true and lasting love. It would certainly derail her happiness, as the Evil Queen was wanting to do (remove all the happy endings)

 

Sorry, but this is a longer answer, because there are a lot of things to explain, as there are a lot of things not seen.

 

Red is not lesbian, she is bisexual. Unless she would identify herself now as lesbian, as Willow did on Buffy after she fell in love with Tara.

 

Did they had to establish her as bisexual from season 1 on, or at least earlier than this episode? I ask the question differently: Did they explicitly establish her as heterosexual? Did Red ever say she was exclusively into guys?

 

She had a romance with Peter, now she is in love with Dorothy.

 

They showed Red flirting with Gus during the curse, and maybe even they had dates, but in my opinion that was rather left open. It was Gus who after the curse approached her first, wanted them to get to know each other now as their true selves, so he wanted to ask her out. But Red was hesitant about it, and saved by Belle from the awkward moment and having to explain, why she wasn't open to a date at least for the time being. Possible Red was just a bit scared to date Gus because of her being a wolf, remembering what had happened with Peter, and not that night, she sensed she was going to turn. Or maybe as well, though Gus was a nice guy, she was not into him.

 

Whale flirted with Ruby during the curse, but didn't look to me as if Ruby liked it much. And while they sure had a moment of understanding later in season 2, which maybe could have led to more someday, it was at that point just a moment of understanding. Red had an open way with people (astoundingly, given how people sometimes treated her), connected with Belle very fast for example, and with Snow.

 

Red was during the curse shown as a woman many saw as rather easy girl, young, attractive, saucy, working as waitress at a dinner, rebellious and extrovert - classical. The kind of woman many see think has to be a slut. Of course, such a woman is seen as a flirt, even if she might be just nice and friendly to people. She might have just tried to have some fun in life and make working as waitress in this small town for herself somehow bearable. I know how I spiced up hours in boring phone customer service with being flirty with people on the phone - doesn't mean I was seriously interested in or attracted to any, and most certainly not, that I was looking for a romance with any of them. And some guys flirted with me, unasked for, maybe because I was nice (nice and friendly as the job demands) or maybe because my husky and deeper voice made them picture a redheaded or blonde our whatever vamp.

 

I know, that some people saw the possibility of Ruby finding Belle attractive. RedBeauty is something some people ship. If you look for it on Tumblr you sure will find some romantic interpretations of gifs of scenes between those two.

 

Red was a character that was seen by some early as being a character who could be bisexual. Many might say, that's just subtext reading, but what do you think queer people do in real life? We're used to look for very subtle hints and signs because it's not that long that in some places tolerance has increased. It's still frowned at even by more tolerant people when gay, lesbian, bisexual people show their affections more openly. It can be still even dangerous to do so, regardless of tolerance, attacks still happen. As well LGBTQI people still have to fear, that employers might not tolerate them and fire them, or that they might get not a job. Protection against discrimination at work, schools, business is not law even in all of the U.S., despite marriage equality now reached. It is something I think many don't realize about subtext reading: It's not just about that things weren't shown, couldn't be shown on screen, and that there is still a lack of representation on screen, but that it is a matter as well of everyday offscreen real life for queer people. Right, some are quite flashy on CSD parades, but in everyday life many more are still very subtle and guarded. So seeing a fictional character, we take every subtle gesture, that can be read in one or the other way, as possible sign, see potential while many other don't.

 

Furthermore, in our societies we are used to seeing things in certain ways, leading us to assume certain things, we are biased, often enough we are not even aware of it. There are societal images and common ways in society to see things, what is seen as being normal. There is a term for that in this case, it's heteronormativity. We see a woman have a romance with a man, and unless it is explicitly expressed otherwise we assume, she is heterosexual because of that. She has to have to show at least some hints, signs and at best say it for most people to accept without much astonishment and doubts, that she is bisexual, when at some point later she is falling in love with a woman. She doesn't even need to have any relationship or flirt, and still most people would assume without much of a thought, that she's into guys, that is what is normal in the view of most people. And in the case a woman is with a woman, when people first meet her, most assume without much of thought, she has to be lesbian. Although if she later dates a guy, then it was just a phase, an experiment, and now she is back into being into only guys. Statistically it might be right to assume, someone is heterosexual, but when it comes down to the individual, you never can be sure, to which group that person belongs, can be one or the other or something different. But we are used to assume that people are heterosexual until proven otherwise. As a bisexual I have experience that often enough not even telling is prove enough for some, you have to have dates with women and men to have the right to claim, you are bisexual. And even then some people tell you, it might be just a phase, especially young people get to hear that.

 

If on a show, in fiction a man shows interest in a man, a woman in a woman without any hints, without any forewarning, people often say that it was contrived, forced, at best that it was coming out of the blue. You never have to hint at someone to be heterosexual, because we normally assume they are. At best then we say, that relationship came out of the blue, but not that their sexual orientation did.

 

The writers didn't need to show hints earlier, aside that many might have missed such hints anyway unless they were as obvious as Red telling, she's attracted to a woman, or showing her cuddling with one unmistakably intimately (otherwise, people could still claim, it was only friendship), because most people are rather blind to such hints if they are not looking for someone being bisexual or lesbian. As explained above, it's common not to look for it.

 

See, I say, even if a character is shown with a boyfriend/girlfriend so far all times, you still can be bisexual unless the character herself/himself identifies as being exclusively into men/women and never has any doubts about it. That is what makes more diversity possible with a lot less useless effort of tons of planning over a couple of episodes or even seasons. It makes it possible to work with characters who already are a part of the story, who you don't have to introduce to the world. Otherwise, the only way you could achieve more diversity in this matter, aside from planning and establishing it unmistakably from the very beginning, is to bring in new characters. And looking at how reactions are now towards Dorothy you then risk as much people saying, they only brought the character in to fulfill some representation quota. Even a show like Sense8 is accused by people of forcing queer characters into a story, of being contrived, and that show is very much about diversity and those characters were introduced as queer from the beginning, it is an integral part of who they are but by far not all they are. Some complaint, that there was too much gay in the show, too much about being gay, the characters should be at least just queer by the way and their queerness not that much a part of their stories. never can do it right.

 

There is nothing unrealistic of people discovering even late in their lives, that they can be attracted to someone of the same gender. Some people know early, they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, some might have a hunch, but never have a surrounding supporting it but more blocking the very idea of it. Others indeed never felt so far attracted but then there is that one woman giving them feelings they as a woman never had for women. Some talk about their attractions, many don't, so there are a lot of people, even close friends, family, who have no idea until they do show up with someone of the same gender

 

A&E obviously had no concrete plans from day 1 on, not over the course of now 4 seasons, who and how to work into a show a (happy) queer couple. Sadly. I don't know if they would have come to that without some pressure, without it being quite visible that the show has fans among LGBTQI. Maybe it is even a sad attempt to appease queer fans, hoping in vain even the most determined SwanQueen fans would take it at least somewhat well. Expectations ran high, and they didn't do much to calm them down, to keep things open and not spoil too much, so it has somewhat the taste of queerbaiting. The characters are not main characters, they are not even that important or at least regular for a half season story arc, and the story is still a sideshow. And different from what most expected it was done pretty much all in one single episode, a sort of Snowing replica in fast motion, which the writers I guess thought of as brilliant idea, but was taken rather as cheap and uncreative copy by many, not least because of glaring plot holes or (from some people's point of view) inexplicable development of things.

 

If it were Red's first time to be attracted to a woman would that have needed more development from zero to true love? No, why should that be on this show where fairy dust can predict true love? Where a dance is all that it takes to fall in love? Red had been romantically involved with someone before, so why shouldn't she have a sense what her feelings are for Dorothy? Because feeling love for a woman would be any different? Because loving a woman is something that she couldn't have imagined happening to her? Why should that be? Because the Enchanted Forest is as much of a place like ours, where lesbian, gay love is something a majority of people still treats as something special, something different from the norm, the norm that is men and women falling in love and marrying? Would be more of a story have been important in the reality of the characters or is it more about the reality of the audience? Obviously, plenty of people struggle to embrace the love of two women regardless if they have been introduced or shown ages before as being attracted to women or not. Is it, that most of the audience would need more time to wrap their heads around something that they hadn't considered before, that Red might be not just into guys, as they so readily assumed because of our society suggesting it's normal? Is it the characters or the audience who need time to get that Red is not the hot heterosexual but a hot bisexual woman, and in love with now Dorothy and not some guy, who was just dropped into the scenery?

 

Yes, they made use of one of the at the moment unattached recurring characters, they could have used even two of them, Mulan and Red. Does that mean, if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, you have to become the lesbian? Why should that be? Would it have been better if they would have taken one of those attached to a guy right now, break their relationship up, Emma or Regina for example? Make them discover, oh, sorry, dear Hook, or dear Robin, I was wrong, you're a good guy, but my true love is this woman I now met, sorry? Or would it have been better to throw just some one-off new characters in and be done with it, no burden with other expectations for the characters, other ships already blooming, no missing declarations of being attracted to women and men to give a warning of what to come. Right, they could have used Mulan instead, not be so overreaching and "turn" even a second recurring and liked character into a bisexual woman. Couldn' they have stick to that one, they already had with Mulan, and find one new character to not get even more in the way with head canons people have?

 

Aside from the usual shortcomings of this show, like uneven character development and uneven timing, plot dragging, missing important dialogues, magical solutions, etc., I only find it sad, that we don't get a queer couple, that is a regular part of the show now, and not at best just a dropping by on a spell once in a blue moon. So I don't call it big progress, but still appreciate, they gave us a queer true love's kiss having the power to break a curse. A kiss with the power to break a curse - for LGBTQI that can have a meaning going beyond a simple fairy tale love story. And even more, we have Red and Dorothy in love, and there is with Mulan one more women who had feelings for a woman and might find happiness with a woman. We have, aside from a lesbian-bisexual romance, now at the same time the friendship of two lesbian/bisexual women. They could have done much, much better, but for this show, for these writers, they did a lot.

 

Concerning bisexual women as TV trope and being ongoing. No, it's not ongoing, that women are portrayed as bisexual. What is ongoing, is that of the women shown in relationships with women many are are portrayed as being bisexual. Indeed, the "great" thing is, that this keeps these women available as material for the usual male protagonist, heroes of TV shows, most shows still are male-centric, and have at least one male lead and more likely no female co-lead even. It could even be good for a nice extra drama, of a guy freaking out about his girlfriend leaving him for a woman, what a downer for his masculinity. Quite regular can get even the impression, that those women are not even bisexual but bicurious, just experimenting, either as young college girls in their best years of figuring things out or as housewives in middle-life crisis

 

Katy Perry's famous song "I kissed a girl" is sadly a prime example of the common bicurious woman trope in pop-culture. It's an "experimental game" she sings, that she is not in love "tonight" and hopes her boyfriend doesn't mind it. In the music video she wakes up in the end in bed at the side of her sleeping boyfriend. And that song is called by some a lesbian hymn, ironic.

 

The problem is not, that if there are women falling in love with women at all that many of them are bisexual (it might be even realistic, that more are bisexual than lesbian), but that most of the bisexual woman don't have a happy ending with a woman, that if they are so lucky not to get killed, they are only temporarily with a woman and get back to the guy or get a guy as happy ending.

 

It doesn't mean that all women are in secret bisexual. Not all women are in fiction at some point loving woman, but most of the woman that are shown to be attracted to or in love with some either had before relationships with men, have afterward, or the relationship with the woman was an exception anyway. 28% of LGBTQI characters on scripted TV are bisexual (mind of the LGBTQI characters), among them twice as many women But There are still enough women around shown to have only relationships with men.

 

Yes, there is a thing with the male gaze, where women being intimate with women is taken as titillating for men. There is in industry producing films just for that, making me cringe every time I see those women with their long fingernails, very obvious not made for and quite likely not by lesbians or bisexual women. Blue Is the Warmest Color was by some praised as good film but there was criticism as well that it was rather a very long male gaze movie not living up to the original graphic novel.

 

People find it less repelling to watch women be intimate (unless they use certain toys, Sense8 made some people feel uncomfortable, but I'm rather sure those people never have watched the British TV show Lipservice). They find the thought of women being intimate not as much as a threat, maybe because women are taken as less serious characters anyway, maybe because women are seen as more emotional and into people anyway, so female friendship might be a bit more intimate anyway without denying the normality of true, real love being usually between men and women. Meanwhile, men are less portrayed as bisexual, because many people believe that there hardly are bisexual men, they are only closeted gays, not yet ready to accept or stand by that they are into guys. It is a threat to masculine ideas of brotherhood. Bromance, okay, that is something that people can live with, guys being somewhat physical even but without the slightest idea of sexual interest. Men are not messy and undecided, they are straight, one way or the other, they can't be somewhere in between. Women are emotionally messy anyway, it's not as necessary to have a clear line there.

 

tl;tr

Saying, they never hinted at Red being bisexual, so what they did now is forced, is a view, falling for taking heterosexual as the normal, and everything else as something, that needs more elaborate introduction and explanation, so that everyone gets it. In my opinion, then it is not surprising when writers hesitate to write gay, lesbian, bisexual characters, because they need extra treatment one way or the other. You don't just have to make plausible, that they are in love with someone, but that this character is in love with a person of the same gender. We are still far, far away from a new normal.

[S05.E18: Ruby Slippers]

Except the odd thing is that they hadn't ever actually established Red as lesbian. All her previous relationships that they've shown were with men. She flirted heavily with men and was dating Billy/Gus-Gus during the curse, but even before that she had the boyfriend she unintentionally killed when she was a wolf, when they thought he was the wolf and he was chained up while she wasn't. Then there seemed to be some flirting/bonding with Whale, and in a deleted scene she was giving Hook an appreciative look. They didn't give even the slightest hint that she might have a different orientation or might be questioning her orientation until they brought her back to spark with Mulan last fall. It was like they just picked the only unattached recurring female character to pair with Mulan, only to then pull a bait-and-switch and throw her at Dorothy, instead. So that makes it come across like "if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, maybe you're a lesbian." If Dorothy was her first same-sex attraction, then there needed to be even more development to get from zero to True Love.

 

 

I don't remember there being any development in terms of establishing Red as same-sex attracted. And I am really tired of shows that have women (always women - never men) suddenly decide to have a lesbian relationship when they've never shown any interest in the same sex before. I don't see any male characters suddenly having a homosexual romance out of nowhere. I could touch on the reasons why but I might start ranting and that never looks good.

 

 

I thought I was the only one confused by Red's sudden lesbianism. There were no indicators of it in her previous relationships. She was the town slut before the curse if I'm remembering correctly. Well according to granny anyway.

 

 

I never said she wasn't bisexual. I said she'd never shown any same-sex attraction before that I'd seen. And this ongoing "women are all secretly bisexual" crap TV has been feeding us is annoying as hell.

 

 

I completely agree with you about how shows push the all women are secretly bisexual, or at least we all want to experiment thing. That is male fantasy not reality.

 

it adds to the wondering, why wasn't it Mulan and Dorothy. They have at least hinted at an interest in women in Mulan with the whole Aurora thing. So it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue. I'd love to know why they decided to use Red for this storyline.

 

 

That pretty much says it all.  It was so undeveloped, it could practically have been anybody.  Merida and Dorothy.  Rapunzel and Mulan.  Red and the Blind Witch.  It just felt random.

Taking this to the Relationship thread. And yes, all of the quoted. Prepare for a longer answer.

 

[Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"]

As was to be expected, that group is known well enough for their stance on LGBTQI. Possible that the flood of disgusted commentaries on FB was their work, not fans but trolls with political intentions.

[S05.E18: Ruby Slippers]

Exactly.  Does anyone ship Dorothy and Red considering they just met?  Whether you like the couples on OUAT or not, at least you can state that the relationships were allowed to evolve over time.  Charming and Snow, Regina and Robin, Belle and Gold, and certainly Emma and Hook.  Each has their shippers, but with Dorothy and Red, the writers gave us zero reason for ANYONE to ship them or even care about them in terms of Dorothy getting a TLK.  Just leave her there.  It's  not like she's developed this strong relationship with the Storybrooke characters.  It was SOO stupid to pair up Red and Dorothy.  Too stupid and utterly and completely contrived.

 

I disagree, not just because I did see some chemistry working between Red and Dorothy. Different perception, some see no chemistry, others do, not the first pairing where that happens. I still don't get much of a chemistry between Belle and Rumple, not even after all this time, don't see any kind of positive relationship there though sure can come up with reasons for both, and I still think Rumple had more mutual understanding and chemistry with Cora then he ever will have with Belle. I never saw much of a chemistry between Regina and Robin either. Think the story of Robin and Regina  was rather contrived, based mostly on this silly fairy dust moment, they didn't show how they fell in love the first time, only how they rediscovered it, and it had a bit of a rushed and forced feeling. But even for Regina and Robin I can come up with reasons, and from my point of view, that is a lot harder than seeing what could connect Dorothy and Red.

If it had been first and foremost physical attraction those two would have looked at each other differently in my opinion. Didn't saw them eyeing each other as hot and sexy, it was more about reading each other's feelings and thoughts, moments of understanding.

 

Some of the reasons or hints given why Red and Dorothy might feel attracted and like finding finally the one soul able to understand the other were even a bit on the nose maybe, but they put some into the episode. One misunderstood and nearly locked up by family, the other misunderstood and feared and hunted out of the village by the village people, and wouldn't say that Granny was that much of help, keeping things from Red at first and practically locking her up to keep things under control. Both have not much of a connection with their parents, one raised by her grandmother, the other only believed by her Aunt Em. Granny and Aunt Em seemed to be of the same batch, resolute, practical, both ending up with diners. Dorothy's and Red's new homes and friends were threatened and devasted, one by Zelena, the other by Regina. Dorothy feels like she has failed unable to protect the Scaregrow, and Red obviously as well is struggling with herself and effects on others, she said something about that to Snow. And Red was struggling where to find someone to feel at home with. Snow is busy, Granny never really made peace with the wolf side. Not to mention it might still weigh on Red that she killed her boyfriend, more or less her own mother (she didn't mention that to Dorothy), and likely feels a bit responsible for the death of Gus. Red mused at some point, if maybe that first Dark Curse, being stuck in magic-less Storybrook without memory of who they were, was not so bad. We never learned much what happened with her during the lost year in the Enchanted Forest, but we do know she began to feel out of place when back in Storybrook. Out of place is something Dorothy knows as feeling, I think.

There is a lot to connect over between Dorothy and Red in my opinion. But it's more about something, that similar experience can help with but is even possible without. We are attracted to people who seem to get us, whose emotions we understand with some ease and who seem to understand us. That doesn't mean that a grumpy person always understands a grumpy person better, the point is more the ability to read the other's emotions, thinking that you get their feelings really good and they get yours. And a lot of that impression we even get already in the first seconds of meeting someone. I saw that happening between Dorothy and Red in this episode.

I agree there was a lot rushed, the plot surrounding their meeting and the TLK in the end was not well written and full of holes, but I don't find their relationship and love contrived.

 

I thought the unbreakable curse was something entirely different from the sleeping curse, so I was hoping it was a state where Dorothy would be "dead" and in the Underworld because of that.

It could have blended into the overall arc of this second half a lot better. Or they could have done a far better world building to begin with. There once was the Netherworld, that room with red burning curtains, where those in a sleeping curse seemed to be stuck, and where those who have experienced the sleeping curse could still get to in a dream, so they were able to communicate over realms - remember that, some fictional weeks back? I remember people discussing interesting theories, what the Netherworld was, how it was connected to other things, bringing it in connection with the Wraith. Maybe someone even thought of Dantes Inferno and the different circles. Was it already brought up in discussions here where all this is seeing now the Underworld, if there might be a connection? I mean, after all in Greek mythology Thanatos, daemon of death is the twin of Hypnos, sleep, the sons of Nyx (night) and Erebos (darkness).

 

Find some way to connect the Netherworld (Sleeping Dorothy) with the Underworld and both with the Wraith and all of it with finding the key to beat Hades and free all souls. Story with Dorothy still could start pretty much as it did, but Red and Mulan land in the Underworld tracking Zelena, and because of them and connecting with Dorothy they finally find the way to get at Hades. And somewhere in between can get the TLK for Red and Dorothy. Sketchy idea, but there could have been ways to do more with the characters. Although might have mean, that it could be material enough for a whole season and not just half a season arc.

 

So don't get why they don't make use of such things. Or wait, sort of get it, shiny toy syndrome. 

 

 

[S05.E18: Ruby Slippers]

I think a lot of my issues with what they've done with Red come down to how contrived the entire setup was. 

 

I have an elaborate story in my head that makes much of it work okay, a least most of Red's motivations and feelings, but you are right, on screen, the way they presented it, it comes across as rather contrived. It's not just leaving blanks, things happening off screen, but that the jumps they made in the story for Red cry for explanations to be believable, and some things just are illogical.

 

Yeah, I know, world building, that thing that seems to bore or annoy writers so often, but the moment magic gives me headaches and confuses me, like why are people suddenly where they are , and why can't they go back the same way, an ill build magical world takes me out of the magic of the story. And when then character moments are as ill developed and just magically appear, it gets worse. Doesn't mean the characters couldn't have come to that point in their development, have those feelings, changed views, whatever, just that it's dropped on us like the house dropped on the Witch of the East. 

 

I still enjoyed this Ruby episode and her falling for Dorothy a lot, but I feel more like a kid getting a new lego set of bricks, which I now nicely can integrate into my very own creation in my very own playroom, which though means I will not come back for a while to the big official toy shop OUaT, until they might have a new set for the Red edition that is. I don't care anymore about the rest of their product line. I don't even care that much anymore, how they set up their Red edition, I make my own thing of it.

 

Not sure if that is a good way to keep audience numbers.

 

Shouldn't think too much about their screen version though, it likely gets worse and not better with looking at any of the story elements and character jumps any closer.

 

Like how Red got to the Underworld. The sad attempt of an explanation made little to no sense. Red had that piece of fabric from Dorothy's dress with her, couldn't find Dorothy, didn't know at all what happened to her, but did a tracking spell to find Zelena to find out? How could she track Zelena with that, wouldn' she have needed something from Zelena, or could she use any item (my memory has become scetchy about some details, only remember they did a tracking spell before)? But any item doesn' make sense to me. And then what? Growl Zelena into telling her where Dorothy is? And what about getting back maybe, an emergency way out if need be, like preparing a locator spell to get back to Mulan. Okay, heroes on OUaT regularly are bad at planning, and the plans of the bad are so overly elaborated that they have to fail. And realm jumping seems to be as easy by now as taking the next tram, or at least for some people, and only when it's convenient. Although Underworld is not like the usually realms, right, but what kind of status does it have then?

 

I really better stop thinking about this episode and should puff away into my own fan fiction realms ;-)

[LGBT Themes, Stories And Characters On TV]

I have no problem with the storyline. Besides Mulan and Red being lesbians, I saw little chemistry like I did between Mulan and Aurora. I don't want Mulan to settle for the next lesbian. Also, I personally appreciated that the show had more than two gay people.

 

Hm, I don't know, how those two would identify themselves, but we know that at least Red had a romance with a guy, Peter, so think we should assume that she is bisexual, or pansexual. Many think that Mulan had feelings for Philip as well and later for Aurora, so she might be bisexual too. For the sake of bivisibility.

 

I enjoyed the episode with Ruby and Dorothy falling in love as long as I kept out of my mind all the discussions around this show and the bigger picture of representation on screen. Maybe like 5 years ago I even would have cheered, great progress, but it feels all coming a bit late now.

 

I get that for fans it is very disappointing for a number of reasons: Rushed, the relationship was barely developed, Mulan was sidelined again, and it's doubtful how much of RedKansas will be shown in the future, if at all, very likely they are disappearing rather into off-screen happiness. Even if they might show up once in a while, we still won't get to see much of their relationship, it's unimportant for the main arc of the show, they are supporting characters and nothing more. I don't care much about SwanQueen and think it's moot to hope that it would ever become canon, but I very much understand the frustration, that main characters on OUaT are a failure in questions of diversity and better representation and thus is the show, even taking in account the supporting characters it doesn't get much better. While I never took what Kitsis and Horowitz said in interviews as a promise that they would seriously do anything going much beyond a one-off, many had a different expectation. The writers saying, it wouldn't be a special episode just meant, it wouldn't be a coming out story or LGBTQI centric drama, but a love story like any other just happening between two women (it was more likely happening between two women than two guys on this show). The show creators and most of the fans aren't talking the same language, not just in this case, failed expectations are rather normal for OUaT.

 

But nevertheless: it is great that we had now a fairy tale's true love kiss between two women showing their love on a family Sunday broadcast network prime time show. Reactions on OUaT's Facebook page and in some commentary sections of reviews are proof how much we still need even such things, even if it's not meeting all our expectations and is not the big step forward.

[Unpopular Opinions: Happily Ever After? Yeah, Right!]

I actually don't mind Merida and Dorothy as characters. I think it's a good thing to show different personalities of women in fiction and media, and that includes grumpy, cynical, and sometimes rough-around-the-edges women. 

 

There with you. Remember how people complained about Emma at first, and even more about JMO's acting, calling it wooden. I for one am quite glad that we get recently more edgy women on screen, be it Jessica Jones or Wynonna Earp and here Dorothy, but I have a thing for Noir film and I always wished to see more of those classical Noir types being genderswapped to mix up things, for new stories. Wonder if for many things really got too dark so there were looking for something more bubbly, but then again remembered what people said about Frozen Anna.

 

I like Dorothy. From what they gave us about her story on the show would say, she has some right to be angry at life and everyone. And many wanted to see Ruby with Frankenstein, and that was some angry at life, dark, broody guy, a prick, a piece of work.

[Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"]

When Ruby and Dirthy kissed you could almost hear a thousand bigots scream. Me I giggled in delight. I am not one of the people offended by the pairing. I am tickled.

 

Just spent a moment at the troll kindergarten known as IMDb message board. Always a fun place to go if you are in the good mood to just take it as hilarious stupidity what some are writing on there. Good for a laugh. If you're not in a good mood though, it's a place only to visit if you need some extra adrenalin kick and anger boost.

[Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard]

The reason there's a connection between how many people she's dated and not accepting the Ruby/Dorothy pairing is because with all those dates, Ruby was shown to be someone who liked people, and found them interesting, but didn't emotionally connect quickly, on a romantic level.    That makes sense after what happened with Peter, I guess.

 

Guessed it might be more something like that, but it sounded a bit different.

 

But I see Ruby differently. Think she was an open person, cheerful, adventurous, somewhat impulsive, connecting rather easily with people, and connecting emotionally. See how fast she connected with Snow. All that despite even being raised by her more controlled and cautious grandmother, who was like that for a good reason though. And then Red discovered that she was a werewolf, and she couldn't stop herself from killing her boyfriend Peter. Traumatizing experience, life changing, so she became hesitant about connecting with anyone like she had with Peter, understandably. But she missed that at the same time, because it's not her in basic character to be so reserved and controlled. Thus the rebellious side, emerging more pronounced again under the curse. Ruby has some fire, she enjoyed running wild as wolf, but with time came slightly more control over it. At the same time she is a sweet and observing person.

 

We saw Ruby connecting only once on a romantic level before, that was with Peter, and we didn't see how that started. In other cases it was more others trying to romantically connect with her, but sometimes there is just not that kind of interest there. There was that guy from the pack, but that was more some innuendo and the wild side for both. She liked Gus as person, but he might just not have given her that shiver and spark, regardless what a nice guy he was. With Whale there was a moment of opening up, sharing, butI didn't see that it had to get to a romantical level ever between those two, it was not there yet for sure IMO.

 

I am not saying, that a slower approach wouldn't have made any sense with Ruby as well, but neither do I think that her going that fast for Dorothy was implausible. She was hesitant even, but then there was Mulan giving her advice telling her not to make the same mistake she made and wait too long.

[The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why]

Sad news. Things can go so fast at times. And cancer is a beast.

Sorry for his family and friends.

[Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard]

Especially Ruby, who's been consistently a character who sparks with a lot of people, but doesn't actually emotionally connect in a long-term way.  Yes, that was likely for plot and drama reasons, but that made her a character with a lot of flirtations, almost-romances, and short relationships that never became serious.  

 

I know you are not thinking along that line, but still that argument comes in my ears quite close to what is called slut shaming. Not that anyone here is actually shaming Ruby for her behavior with full intention, but I do wonder why it should make any difference for true love and TLK how many people a person might have dated or flirted with before? If they had not connected or avoided to emotionally connect with someone before more intensely? That she might not have been more serious with others before doesn't mean that she can't be now serious with this one person.

 

I get that for many people time equals effort and effort equals quality, but that is not exactly how emotions work. Some experience emotions more intense than others. Some have some quite strong rather rational filters most of the time and their emotions are kinda leveled out. Others are intense but still only superficial and moving on fast.  For some it takes time to let themselves go at all. Others explode easily. Some are known as reserved but then with the right person in the right moment they all of a sudden let loose. You look at it as if has to work one and the same way for everybody, but that is not how I think it is, not in real life neither in the fictional world of OUaT. Love, true love is a very different experience for different people, it's not even always one and the same experience for the same person, it depends on the other and on context. A TLK depends on being ready to fully trust and commit in that very moment, it's a magical moment so it creates magic,it doesn't depend on how long you have worked on getting there. For some it might be possible just five minutes after they've met, others need time to find or build that level of trust and commitment inside of themselves. And then you need a good timing, because both have to have that emotional openness and trust to create the magic. 

 

Indeed Ruby hasn't connected on long-term level or shown any interest in a person on that level after Peter so far, that was plausible given her background and experience with Peter. But a lot has happened the past couple of months (it's now about 2 years since Regina's first dark curse was broken, is it?), things have changed. Ruby felt this need to look for the pack, And I think that very same urge to connect, to find her place could have pushed her with Dorothy now on the fast track. But okay, I liked Dorothy more than most here seem to do, didn't find her that terribly gruff, and I saw some chemistry working. As I don't think that TLK has anything to do with time and effort but lies in the moment.

 

If this is about Ruby and Dorothy getting it faster than main characters, well think that in this case it is the advantage of being the sideshow. Taking it slower would have meant to give two more characters more moments in the show, add more competition for screen time for the main ships. This fandom has some nitpickers recording things like that, how much time for who, people getting nervous or angry about any of the main couples getting more time than the others. You want to add another couple to that competition?

 

Yes, they ticked of the box, but with the distance I have by now to this show I can very much see that from their point of view they told a good love story and did what they promised to do. Different perceptions.

 

Funny thing for me is, that from the moment it turned out that Red/Ruby was herself the wolf I saw the potential of  LGBTQI storyline for this character, that was in season 1. Now I can't tell without any doubt if that was because I liked the character so much or if I fell in love with that character because I sensed early on something could be possible. Wishful thinking or a sixth sense. But it was one of the reasons why I was miffed when they didn't do much with Red in season 2 and pretty much gave up developing her character, because I didn't get how they could waste that potential. Not if they truly wanted to tell fairy tales in a new modern way.

 

And then they messed up their next chance with Mulan and Aurora right after. I already had only very little hope for Frozen, and some were hoping for that chance next then.

 

No, I never cared about SwanQueen or found that a good pairing, but I did see why some people saw something in it early on. The training of having to rely for a long time on nothing but subtext for this, you do see things a bit different. But that just by the way.

 

The show runners had a number of chances to do something better than this sort of underwhelming one off with Ruby and Dorothy. I don't buy at all into the speculations that Disney had not green-lighted any of the other possibilities, I do think that the writers never before seriously tried to do something. It was somewhere on their list of something to do sometime, and they sounded always rather annoyed to be asked that every time. They just didn't care enough. Don't need to be any nice about that. This love story was not satisfying, not all, It was nice when you watch it rather isolated and not caring about the big picture nor about the show, but that's it. Something for casual viewers at best.

[Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard]

From all the first reactions I've seen, this episode drove people away from incorporating LGBT couples more than it made them want more. I think viewers felt like their show was hijacked by a Very Special Message. I personally don't find it to be the worst thing ever (the rushed-ness was not new to the show), but it tried to address something important to many people and failed. It didn't do the characters nor LGBT viewers justice. It was just very disappointing.

 

Whenever people say something like that they feel, that their show was "hijacked" by a special message or for an "agenda", they usually are the kind of people claiming, they are otherwise oh so liberal and okay with gays and same sex marriage in real life, but complain why it has be pushed onto every show and especially their show, a family show. Those are people who don't want to see any iota of LGBTQI on their screen ever, it should stay where it never could cross their ways. That's the kind filling the Facebook page with commentaries at the moment, sounding less ugly but meaning it as ugly as those being more direct with their hate and opposition. It will never matter how much or how little or how at all shows incorporate LGBTQI characters and stories, those people will never accept it. And there likely will be people opposing any representation being more than a rather invisible background extra at best for years to come, but hopefully their numbers will dwindle and so they might shut up at some point.

 

Think you can do only harm, if portraying LGBTQI has sin and dangerous, as killing people, as mental illness, or don't make clear enough that your killer is not a killer because he is gay but just happens to be gay for example. That has done plenty of harm to how LGBTQI were perceived and still can do harm.

 

That OUaT with Dorothy and Red falls back pretty much on the onetime episode relationship for LGBTQI, even if they might return they hardly ever will be anything but a sideshow, doesn't harm I think, it is just no progress. It just is not what some people against all odds were somehow hoping for, so it mostly disappointed. Ruby Slippers is coming close to a one off episode, regardless that Red has been a fan favorite and recurring. That might have been something to wow in the first or second season, but at this point it just can't shed the mark of being just an afterthought. But I have seen some grateful commentaries and reactions, for more casual viewers of the show it might have been quite okay.

They did in a way, what they said, they made it like other true love stories on the show. I know, some understood what A&E said in an interview differently, but I never took them saying, that it would be something not different as love story from Snow and Charming or Hook and Emma as a promise that it would be any kind of a longer story, adding new regular characters, or bringing back character to regular level as it would be with Red, but more in the line of being a love that overcomes all obstacles, even curses and different realms, and having the power of a TLK as magical means, nothing more nothing less. They very much did that, although packed the development into one episode. It's a condensed version of Snowing before they married. From A&E's view and has they understood things they did everything right and as announced. That many fans understood something different and hoped for something different is nothing new, that kind of dissent is business as usual for this show.

 

That the show sees true love as something rather magical , hitting in an instant is what true love is on this show, at least between adult partners. It might take some struggle to get together, to overcome obstacles, for the lovers eventually to accept their feelings, but the feeling itself is something that doesn't need big effort, it's just there. Many might disagree that this is true love, but it's what it is that in the shows reality, that is how their world is build.

 

 

 

Maybe this is what the writers want, but I'm at the point of not caring if CS get a TLK. They've taken away the mystery and value of it. It used to be about fighting for your love and recognizing how much you love each other. Pretty much every other couple has had a TLK and some even after knowing each other 1 day and others even when they've never spoken. Yet we see CS constantly struggle and try for TLK only to be denied each time. Why?

 

Why shouldn't every couple have TLK? Does it have to be something rare to be special? Isn't it more important that it is special for those involved, the characters? And I get that it hurts a lot of CS fans that their favorites still didn't get that chance for TLK, but maybe it's worth to be something to save for a big final showdown of the final of all finals? I mean, what if they get it now, what should follow? How to top that? Doesn't it make those two way more special than others that they still haven't gotten it? The big final end game of the show? If they don't do that TLK right, that could be something making this show really jump the shark. Of course, dragging it is quite a risk too, a some point the tension expands until it explodes or disappears and people might not care anymore. The dilemma of focusing on relationship stories for any TV show, the moment you get happy ending, reach the peak of the relationship, most struggle to have any stories to tell left. So frequently either the chase is lasting and lasting, or the couple is broken up, separated again and again, to challenge their love anew, increasing the stakes every time. I think a TLK for CS would become only a cheap one if they don't make it something really special for them, it doesn't matter what they're doing with other couples. 

[S05.E18: Ruby Slippers]

At least they didn't kill Dorothy or Red or both shortly after. Something /sarkasmoff

 

Whatever the writers, A&E would have done, they couldn't win.

 

Maybe A&E were actually convinced they would do something not looking like a special episode, but it was rather foolish to think they could do that in the first place. Sure, the episode had threads of the overall story arcs for the main characters woven in, okay, but that was not the point, and that is something they probably didn't get. They could have avoided this feeling of a special episode, a special treat only, if they'd brought in Dorothy earlier, episodes before, and kept her around as recurring in the present timeline, involved in trying to find a way to beat Hades, practically making her an important character for the overall story arc of this part of the season, and stretched the story of her and Red falling for each other for more than one episode. Of course it's possible we might see them again, should hope, there would be enough reason, but with this show wouldn't expect it to happen. But wouldn't heal what they already did wrong.

 

They could have done better with Mulan and Red, because those two have been established characters on the show for a while, but still wouldn't have solved the problem, that even those two are pretty much sideshow and have been barely present. The only chance to do better would have been in this scenario as well to make them practical regulars for at least half a season if not more, bring them right in the middle of the main story arc, and give them more screentime, not as background lurkers and story tool for the main character but as essential for the bigger story arc.

 

Everything else quite simple just can't rid of the overtone of being just an afterthought and never anything more, as something for the LGBTQI fans as treat but not as being an integral part of the show. That is what A&E and some in the audience show never understood in all the heated discussions over the years. Yes, more representation is great and should be by now not even worth much of a question at all, it just should happen by the way, but sadly even that is not yet the case. What they now have done on OUaT might have been great maybe 5 years ago, or 10, but today it's not much of a progression, it's more a concession that a show like OUaT, created by as they claim open minded people, can't anymore go without at least one LGBTQI guest episode or some minor LGBTQI characters. I know lesbian, gays, bisexuals are still reveling a lot in subtext and all the little breadcrumbs we're used to get by now for pretty much a generation, but it's understandable that expectations are growing. Xena first aired 20 years ago, and the Canadian show Lost Girl showed over the past five years something different is possible, and Netflix Sense8 is pushing things further, and OUaT didn't nothing that impressive here. Only difference is, OUaT airs on one of the big U.S. broadcast networks, one that though is quite progressive seeing Grey's Anatomy, but OUaT is family program, that still is a corner in the TV world struggling to open up a tad more to diversity. Reason why so many of those reactionary people still feel so entitled to claim this as their world and now fill the Facebook page with their narrowminded views. Only reason why I thought it still made sense to keep a bit of pressure on OUaT to finally do something

.

That they said that it would be no special in interviews was hilarious and something I never took any serious, not after 4 seasons of experience with this show. I am by now more surprised, how many people are still clinging to that idea, that this show would ever give anything but a special LGBTQI treat at best for a few episodes, frankly, I think that ship has sailed some time ago, latest with 3rd season still not really getting anywhere in more diversity.

 

Aside though of the bigger picture of questions of better representation, more diversity on screen, and being less invested in this show by now and more of a very casual viewer, not caring about the main characters anymore and indifferent to their stories, I enjoyed Dorothy's and Red's love story as a onetime, one hour entertainment. I basically liked it. The love story was nice, even Kansas and Wolfie was something cute, yes cringeworthy, cheesy, but cute and cheesy go hand in hand quite often.

 

There might have been not the big on screen spark, but it worked well enough for me, and both actors, Meghan Ory and Teri Reeves did what they could with the little the script offered, tiny looks and awkwardness, there was something going on. Easy to miss when the faces are nearly frozen in the cold and with not so great lightning in the dark, but they tried.

 

I like Dorothy, but I think I get why a lot of people don't. Yes this Dorothy is seemingly wooden, rough, harsh, appearing bitter, but after all that she likely went through with Zelena commanding Oz is that any surprise? But that is the problem with head canon and being not told on screen. I saw her as being not the dreamy jolly child we know from the classical movie but a grown up Dorothy hardened by a wicked witch's pettish reign over the country, one who lost family, had not the happy times she got in other versions. Don't know if she will return, but so far think it's a bit of a pity that they made so little good use of Teri Reeves, she has some fighting skills. But this show likes to waste actors, don't they.

 

Dorothy and Red came somewhat out of the blue, but I didn't mind that they got to a TLK that fast, because taking it as rather stand alone episode. Furthermore I think, at the very core of OUaT is the idea of true love as something miraculous and magical and mostly instant, the big myth of our modern times, celebrated very much by Disney (next to the big parent/family true love and blood is thicker than wine thing). Yup, sometimes they dance around each other for a while to keep up tensions, the chase is after all the fun on screen not the finish, but many fictional romances share that idea of rather instant love on first sight. A lot of people believe that is all what fairy tales are about. OUaT is no different, never has been.

 

Thinking of how important first impressions indeed are when we meet new people, it's not even that far-fetched, just that in real life it takes for many longer to figure it out, that they have been hit, and even longer eventually to make it work to get into something that we would see as a truly lasting relationship and not just as an intense though sure great and happy crush.

 

As I see it the shows binds TLK, true love to something with deep impact, makes it something of magic, driven by magic as much as it can create magic. Magic is in OUaT something that some just have, some to some degree can achieve without being gifted (born) with it, it's something you need to learn to master and control eventually, and that can be hard work, but it's nothing really earned, you just have it basically or suddenly can do it at times. Why should true love, as being magical in its nature in this fictional world, be any different? And when people can do something magical without much of a training, see Emma, then why shouldn't it be as much possible that two people can have TLK without knowing each other even? Isn't a version of the tale of Sleeping Beauty even that the prince only heard rumors of her, never met her before? At least Dorothy and Red had a couple of hours, a field trip and some adrenalin rush to share. Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves had not that much more to spark their love in Speed, did they, although it didn't last, as we learned later, so okay, probably was no true love just intense love.

 

I don't think that they handle true love for Emma and Hook or Snow and Charming any different, it's insta-love and karma like, despite that we get with CS things kinda in slow motion, and had Snow and Charming as flashback story. The basic idea is the same for all on the show. It's not about how long they know each other, are together, not about any development, true love is there instantly, but it might be a struggle to get together and to actually live it. If there is a problem I think it is in the DNA already of this show.

 

I feel sorry for Mulan. Once again (they should rename the show, it's often repetitive) just the wing woman. I don't fancy turning everyone with a spark of mutual understanding into love birds, not just if the people in question have same gender though, I think we overdue it with different gender way more. I certainly would love to see some more great friendships, buddies, men or women on screen. So in a way Mulan and Red being good buddies is something nice too, even though I sure like many had fallen in love with the idea of those two becoming a couple. But as said, I think true love is at the core of this show, so Mulan deserves to find hers as much as anyone else. But again, with this show, the pessimism (or is that realism?) prevails for me, so I don't have much hope it will happen. If they would, well, I would be back for that episode, but sure not going to keep watching tons of by now rather boring sameness to get there.

 

I don't share the huge disappointment many seem to feel, partially because I have no high expectation for this show left anyway and most certainly not anymore in questions of more diversity. I don't see Dorothy and Red just as merely a token, but neither do I see it as great progressive step to give any big applause for it. It was overdue, it was average writing. As often with this show I think they had even a good idea, but were once more not that good in execution. Actors, costumes, props, score make it an enjoyable treat, but that can't quite overcome the lack of depth on this show.

[Madame Secretary In The Media]

Interesting and funny. Téa Leoni, Q&A Conversation SAG Foundation, Juni 2015, talking about Madam Secretary and acting (26:08)

 

Erich Bergen, Geoffrey Arend & Patina Miller, Interview January 2016 (23:46)

 

Can wonder, how they get anything done on set. ;-)

[S03.E07: Thirteen]

Well that's disappointing that they took the post down. I thought it was pretty spot on explanation of representation in general.

 

If I remember it correctly it was this short post about representation, right? It didn't disappear, just a different URL. To explain: When someone changes their Tumblr name, aka subdomain it results in a change of the url. While on Tumblr you barely will notice, when you go to your likes for example you still should find it, it effects any links posted elsewhere, like for example here in the forums, those links then are broken.

 

Have been lurking in this thread curious how reactions would be about the episode. The show didn't keep my interest at the beginning, but recently took a look at it again, when noticing the talk about Clexa. Had hoped for a different outcome, as seems many did, but after decades in TV show fandoms, and with view at things as a bisexual non-conforming woman, expected pretty much what unfortunately did happen.

 

As much as I can understand the development from a story telling point of view, even the choice of making the impact even more brutal by making the death rather random instead of heroic, there is this bury the gay / the lesbian trope. Much has already been said here about it. If you have only a very limited number of characters you feel represented by at all, then every single character lost is a significant loss. I get that it might not be easy to understand for those, who don't pay that much attention to lesbians or bisexual women on TV, because it's just not that important for them, that's okay, but maybe try a little thing: Write down spontaneously the first, let's say minimum 10 TV show pairings coming to your mind who had a happy ending or lasted for a longer time at least. Maybe add another 10 even, and 10 more then. And then take a look, how many same sex pairings are among them. 

 

 

As for the second article the claim that Lexa was killed to further the arc of straight characters (except in the broadest effects the entire canvass way, straights will be impacted is not straights will be benefited) doesn't hold a lot of water for me, since I see Lexa's death as servicing primarily Clarke's story and she is still a LGBT character, indeed she is the LEAD character and thus has as much if not more representational worth than Lexa. It doesn't excuse or justify HOW they went about sweeping a really great and meaningful character, off screen but I also think the trope as respects this show and these writers isn't as flagrant, given the context that this show still has a vibrant LGBT woman at it's center, and it still has another gay character in Miller, and Miller does have an on screen boyfriend, who I hope he gets to do more than hug at some point.  It feels like being an out Bisexual character IS in fact being treated as lesser kind of representation than being an out lesbian.

 

Indeed, Clark is still there, and a main character, and maybe it is hard now to forget that she was in love with a woman, I hope, but there is something that is known as bisexual erasure or invisibility. Indeed, it can look and sound in discussions about representation in media and fiction as if a bisexual person or character is taken as a kind of lesser representation. Bisexual men are the rarest unicorns of all, barely existing, a reason why I will love Torchwood and Captain Jack Harkness forever. For bisexual women the situation is a different one, they even appear quite often in fiction, but they have an uncanny habit to "lose" their bisexuality, in the perception of the audience at least or sometimes even in the narrative. Problem is, we believe what we see: A woman kissing a woman and ending up with her is a lesbian, a woman kissing a man is a heterosexual, a woman kissing a woman but later ending up with a man had a phase, a woman kissing a man and later ending up with a woman becomes a lesbian. Because we believe what we see, many often enough forget about the character being still bisexual regardless whoever they end up with as happy ending. Unless you explicitly let the character say again and again that she, or he, is bisexual. And even then there are people doubting, saying it was just a phase, either way.

 

The somewhat sad thing is, if Clark as a bisexual has a relationship with a man she is simply not representing an alternative to the still dominant happy romantic heterosexual relationships on screen, but is disappearing in rather more of the same. If she is in no relationship then her bisexuality is as invisible for representation. Clark as bisexual makes only a significant difference in visibility, in representation, when she is in a relationship with a woman. 

[The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why]

Something Kitsis said in the THR interview mentioned above:

 

We've done a Franz Kafka reference before and Cuckoo's Nest, but our audience really likes the fairy tales.

 

Does anyone here have an idea, what the Franz Kafka reference could have been? I just can't come up with anything.

I never minded them doing a wild mix of fictional characters and tales, twisting the stuff, but to me most of it doesn't look that much twisted at all, and increasingly less over the seasons. At best maybe it's somewhat twisted if your knowledge or focus is mostly limited to Disney tales. Even DC and Marvel comics have a richer world to offer if you go beyond they mainstream characters and big heroes. Certainly it's often not that much of a twist what this show shows if you have dug more into tales, the different retelling and variations tales often have experienced over time and in different places, and look around at mythologies, tales and fairy tales from all over the world. Focusing so much on the big Disney icons and few other pop-cultural fictional heroes is in my eyes a limited view on the rich world of tales, and I think their imagination shows some limits, maybe because of that.

 

It's pretty much a childlike approach that they are describing in the interview. They are grabbing the next best toys or the at the moment most favorite toys and throw them together in some wild ride of imagination without much of a thought. That could be okay, but I think at least a part of the audience struggles with that concept, the show as a silly show for rather silly entertainment with some aww!geek! moments and soap opera like romances. I once thought the show could have been a lot more and so got excited about it, but by now I think, it was never meant to be anything else but silly entertainment. I am not sure though if the writers even themselves have settled with that when reading that bit about a Kafka reference. Whatever they are thinking they are trying, the show is not sophisticated enough to make it as much of an intellectual pleasure as it might be as simple emotional one. The best these writers could do IMO for everyone's sanity is stop claiming that this show is about something more than superficial fairy tale-ish entertainment, stop saying that it's about hope or love or whatever.

 

By the way, what does Horowitz mean with "cul-de-sac"? No, seriously, I am wondering, guess it's quite sure not dead end, although that would make even sort of sense seeing the dead end of character development the show has become. Does he use it as another expression for (surprise) bag, or is it another way to say, that they pull things out of their butts?

[The Fall - General Discussion]

I agree that he's learned how to function in society by watching and mimicking, and also that his feelings for his wife and the general public are pretty shallow. However, I think he genuinely cares about his daughter. I think he actually loves her and enjoys spending time with her. If that's true, I think that's much more interesting than a straight-up psychopath who feels absolutely nothing for anyone.

 

Trying to get not too deep here into Spector's mind, but one thing, that I think I have to explain to go into Stella's mind and emotion and the idea of mirroring then. Psychopathy IMO doesn't mean being incapable of any emotions, it means a lack of empathy and often (maybe as consequence) either a lack of morality as well or a morality being very different from most, from average humans. It means to have little to no sense for the feelings of others. A psychopath still can develop feelings, even some sort of love for someone, I think, but it's different from what average people experience. I think it takes a lot more intellectual effort for a psychopath, he has to construct his world more with logic than average people to develop something like love and care for others, the feelings barely go deep in this, while a psychopath very well can develop feelings of hate, despise, disgust, envy, and get obsessive, that doesn't take much empathy. He has not what I would call a basic emotional frame that maybe keeps most of us from doing certain things. A psychopath can have feelings for someone but has likely little to no sense and regards for their feelings. Seeing where Spector hid his stuff and how he talked away his daughter's night terrors  I doubt he has much of a sense of her feelings nor regards for it. He certainly doesn't has the same "protective" feelings for his son, barely seem to notice him, I don't think it was random that he didn't want to see him as much as his daughter. When there is anything it is specifically Olivia, it's not kids in general, Stella nails that quite good I think in the interrogation. (dang, maybe should create a Spector thread, some more things to say about him, but not today)

 

By the way, Stella explicitly says she despises Spector, in episode 2x06, when Tom Anderson muses, she might have slept with him because he seems to resemble Spector in appearance, The way she said it didn't gave me the impression that she didn't mean it. But of course that won't be enough for others, could say she might after all lie even to herself in this.

 

I think I'm just so interested in the mirroring of Stella and Spector. It seems so deliberate, though I'll admit I don't think I fully understand what exactly the writer is trying to communicate with it. Maybe it's just the obvious: how can people so similar be so vastly different, where exactly is that line? But I don't know...I feel like there's more to it.

Where to draw the line is IMO already plenty to reflect on and wonder about. They might seem more alike than is comfortable, because what is the difference that keeps Stella from turning into a murdering, torturing criminal like Spector has become. Isn't it close to unbearable to think it might be just by chance, or just some slight differences at important points in their lives? It can't be such a thin line, can it be? What if it is something out of our control, what then justifies the verdicts given, aren't they mostly based on the idea, that we can act differently and have control? And some things might be not so different even, it's the context that matters as much. Could Stella have become under different circumstances Spector and Spector Stella?

But I think one of the things that differentiates Stella and Spector is in the end, that Stella is capable of compassion. Though I wouldn't say that Stella holds the feelings of others always in high regards, it is debatable, but at least she seems to have a sense of feelings others have. Can ask though, what is more reprehensible, to not have, be not able to develop a sense of other people's feelings or to choose to be ignorant to feelings of others at times even if it might be for good reasons.

 

This is a crime show, thriller, but we know from the start who is the criminal, the suspense is there in how do they get him, adding in the second season the question, will they safe Rose. The mirroring, showing Stella as the hunter of the killer, and Spector as the killer hunting for his next victim or getting back at Stella as defense, helps to create suspension and emotional impact. it confuses the otherwise clear defined roles, who is the hunter, who the hunted, even sometimes who has the moral ground.

[The Fall - General Discussion]

For sure! And aren't we all somewhat taken in with him? Isn't that one reason the show is successful, because he's this bizarre and fascinating dichotomy? How do both sides of this man exist in one person?

 

I wouldn't phrase it as being taken in with him. Intrigued, fascinated, seeing him as an intellectual puzzle to solve, interested to get into his mind in some way, maybe, but only to learn how to stop him or types like him with legal means. I don't think he has any dichotomy in his personality, we only perceive it as that, but he has learned to pretend pretty well, to adapt, to look and be perceived as loving and caring man while he is far from that. Doubt he has any deep feelings for his family, his wife or his children, any kind of empathy or love for anyone. He is intelligent, he has build a persona acceptable for society, that's all. When he loses it somewhat after he learned that his recent victim had been pregnant he wasn't feeling any remorse for having killed as well an unborn child, though quite sure some might think that, that he thought of his own children. But he didn't, Spector was irritated that this detail had slipped him so to speak and that his fantasy was spoiled by it. It was though on purpose by the writer, I think, to give us this moment of doubt, maybe he does feel something, maybe there is some grain of good in him, maybe some tragic story is there to explain him and his crimes, making the audience fall a bit for Spector's show. From all what is shown Spector is a psychopath, highly functional, very observable and good in imitating what is deemed as acceptable, good normal behavior. He is physically attractive, an enticing person either to those, who don't know what he is doing, or to those finding nefariousness and secrecy somehow attractive, like Katie does. Doubt though that Gibson finds him any attractive, romantically or even just sexually, she knows him for what he is. She only wants to get into his mind to take him down.

 

Gibson wants to bring him down while not letting the victims down, that's what I think she cares about. So she has an interest in Spector not dying, to be sure they get him for all he did. It's not simply about stopping him or getting revenge, it's about getting justice for his victims in the sense of proving what he did, of showing the world who he was and is. The victims know, but others have to see that too.

 

Not to mention, he was shot there under her watch. Gibson his in her own way determined to keep control.

So agree mostly with this:

I think her running to him at the end of the episode was purely out of wanting to save him so that he could face the music....dying without being prosecuted for anything is a fate too good for Spector.

Unfortunately there is a certain tendency to confuse disgust with simple rejection and reading some kind of sexual tension into it, particular if it is between a woman and man, leading to wrongly romanticising things that are not at all romantic. Would say it is an unfortunate frequent theme on screen and in literature, giving way too many people rather stupid and wrong ideas about romance.

Gibson has no romantic feelings for Spector, not even a tiny bit, and doubt this show would be so dumb to take that road. Would in my opinion not add any interesting layer to her character.

 

Yes! They say in creative writing classes (and acting too, I think) that your entire story can be told in your characters' reactions. The audience learns so much about who the character is from how he/she reacts to the action. I love that basically everything we know about Stella comes from reaction. That's not to say she's passive; she's obviously not. But no one tells us who she is. We just see her peel away pieces of herself as the story unfolds. I work in publishing and studied writing in school, so the intricacy of the actual craft of storytelling is one of my absolute favorite things. This show is so well crafted it's almost perfect. I wish I could sit down with the writer and have him explain his process.

Indeed.  It's brilliant writing and editing, and some of the most creepy and suspenseful things I've seen, for example how they combine in sequences what different characters are doing. Some writers seems to think that suspense or excitement is all about the unexpected twist, the big surprise and at worst following cliffhanger, thankfully not so Allan Cubitt. Think often it's more suspenseful to let the audience have a rather good guess what will happen, and let it unfold, eventually excruciatingly in small details. Keep the audience in the know while still playing its imagination.

 

Gibson has an amazing presence from the first moment on, giving a sense of many layers in her persona. I am less curious about her background or life story but far more intrigued to see how she is going about this case and the now, her reactions and actions in the presence of the story tell all about her character. Sometimes there are characters you have to see where they are coming from, their past, but I think not so much with her.  I enjoy that, because have become somewhat tired of "we dig up the past to explain the characters emotions in the presence" stuff. These past digging stories seem to come with the focus so often on the poor misunderstood evil person trope or torn unwilling hero. Refreshing to have the focus on this show more on the here and now.

I mean, we got glimpses, like her affair with Burns she had in the past, but it happened rather by the way. And it was more about the present situation and his moment of indignation about that she had a one night stand with a married guy.

[S10.E05: Babylon]

I hate Einstein.  Never want to see that woman again.  Horrible acting.

 

I'm not sure about if it was horrible acting. I didn't find Agent Einstein likeable or interesting enough to wish to get to know her better, but think the character was meant to be that overacted, Lauren Ambrose was translating to the screen how the character was written. Can question if that was the right way to go with the character, but that doesn't mean to me that it was bad acting.

The episode reminded me of Theatre of the Absurd, nonsensical, disjointed, irrational, the characters aside of Scully and Mulder rather stereotypical, plenty of cliches and nonsense dialogue, and a plot making little to no sense. Not just talking of Mulder's magic mushrooms mystery tour. In the end it felt like the episode went nowhere while nevertheless trying to touch questions of faith, meaning, human interaction. It would make even some sense seeing that the episode was called Babylon and that at the end the Tower of Babel came up, break down of communication is a theme of Theatre of the Absurd, showing what happens when there is no meaning. Not saying it was all well done, neither do I know if it was all intentional in that sense, and I can see why a lot of people disliked the episode, particular when watching it in a literal way, but seeing it as absurd it gets a different layer and becomes interesting. That made me enjoy it.

[Sense8 In The Media]

Right, John Toll, cinematographer of Sense8, mentioned in an interview in November about filming the show, that they're talking about starting to shoot second season in March. Here the interview with John Toll  (quite interesting to read, if you are interested in film making and not just the stars of the show).

 

Anyway, I came to this thread to complain about Sense8 not getting any recognition at the Golden Globes. At least a nomination would have been nice to recognise how tough it is to pull off a show like this. 

 

There had been a time I thought the Globes were at least a bit respectable, but this year's nominations and winners are partially a joke IMO. Biggest joke that they accepted The Martian for Comedy/Musical category and made it win the category - guess I somehow slept through the comedy or musical numbers in the film or they must have seen a different, special Golden Globes cut, because I didn't see any. I know that category has become a bit of a joke already the years before, but think they managed to top it this year. It's business, get that, but it's so ridculous.

That Sense8 wasn't nominated at all was maybe not that much of a surprise seeing how bad reviews were at the beginning. The Globes are given by people reporting about entertainment industry for press though mostly outside the U.S.. Should think they would get the global dimension, but they haven't shown much sense for that over the past time either IMO. They're just not ready for the show. Yet.

[S01.E07: WWN Double-D?]

One bothersome thing : Why is Jonas ( Naveen Andrews) only popping into people's heads  (Will and Nomi) at such odd times? If he can communicate during stressful times and not so stressful times, he should be able to come back later with more information about what's going on. 

 

What did Jonas say in episode 4, it's "not like calling or texting someone. It's not something you make happen. It is something you let happen." Although at least even in a phone call it would work only if the receiver picks up the phone. Think it's not just up to Jonas, when it happens, he can't simply pop into their heads when he wants. So he has to give information whenever he gets any chance to. Until maybe the young sensates have developed a better sense and control of their ability. Additionally, now that Jonas is captive and under observation he has even less choices,

[Sense8 In The Media]

Ami Ameen (Van Damme / Capheus) posted a cluster group selfie on his instagram in Berlin. Shooting was pushed back so the show probably won't return until at least the second half of 2016.

 

They did a table read for the first two episodes it seems, and a few shots over the holidays in Berlin. Miguel posted on Instagram a vid of the table round. JMS made clear on Twitter, that this was not yet the start of full main unit shooting. There was some more on social media from the cast, for Twitter I have a collection.

[S01.E06: Demons]

You bring up interesting points

 

So that was the infamous orgy episode. I'll admit it was fun to watch in a sort of soft porn, ambiguously writhing, controlled nakedness  way. But story-wise, it did not seem that anything special caused the clusterfuck to happen and there appeared to be no significant change in events after the clusterfuck was over. So from a story point of view it seem mostly gratuitous. (tho entertaining)

 

Different view here. From my view the orgy showed, that their connection goes beyond the usual mind connection (someone can read someone' thoughts), but is a connection of minds, senses, everything. They feel each other, they feel through each other, and the connection goes further.  We got glimpses of that before, but in theses scenes it was more than obvious. And it was shared between more than two sensates at a time. As it was showing that things like sexual orientation likely for a sensate can be quite a different experience, or as I would say, their experience goes beyond such limitations. I think about it further: They shared an intimacy with each other while being intimate with what comes closes in our non-sensate world to the idea of soulmate, a person we are deeply in love with, at least in the case of Lito and Hernando and Nomi and Amanita. It raises to me a lot of questions as it gives a hunch for potential conflicts. So I didn't find the orgy any gratuitous, aside that it was one of the most beautifully photographed sex scenes I've seen on screen.

 

Capheus doesn't do sex scenes. The Nigerian was noticeably absent during the orgy, which I took as a result of scheduling issues or that the actor did not not want to do semi-naked scenes. The character was not doing anything special at the time besides sitting in a bus. I suppose we will  see if Capheus ever does sex scenes in future episode.

 

Think Capheus got a little excited too, his surprised look down himself had something to do with that, just that it puzzled him, that watching a Van Damme video could have such effects on him. Otherwise, looking at his scenes in this episode, there was story telling wise not much space to get him into some nice flirt with a girl or boy or whoever or into at least exercise sweating, Capheus story was not in any way at a point to get him more involved. Possible we might see future sex scenes with him as well, when it fits into Capheus story.
 

While though I'm sure a lot of fans hope for more, as I am sure the writers won't shy away to go for more, doubt they will make it just to service fans.

 

The policeman Will and Riley the DJ 'share' a beer in a bar , exchange phone numbers and even actually talk to one another. Immediately after, Riley is attacked and is nearly killed but Will mentally connects and helps her overpower her attackers. But then Will never gives it a second thought. He doesn't wonder what happened to her? He even has her phone number now -- even if he doesn't know how to make a telepathic connection.

 

You're right, it is strange, that we don't see Will calling Riley, to be sure she is okay and ask what she will do now, offer help. Think he did know, she got at least away for the moment. And there was enough going on for himself. But it's a good question.

 

It also appeared to be bright daylight during the 'orgy time' in both Nigeria and Mexico. I only noticed because the show mostly does a good job of realizing that some characters would have be up during the middle of the night to connect to other characters half way around the world.

 

Not impossible, though sure wouldn't be high noon in both places, but that was not the impression I had anyway. Daylight, yes, not the same time of day though. Possible that is was late afternoon in Nairobi, Mexico was late morning then, as would be Chicago, San Francisco early morning. I didn't check in detail on all moments, but think they did a quite good job with the time zones and daylight/night time differences of the locations. Filming on location and not stand-in location might have helped to get it quite right, mostly, because of sun position. Otherwise there are of course some neat tools around to know not just the time differences but as well position of sun and moon at any time at any place.

 

I continue to enjoy the show, despite the need for fanwanking or suspension of disbelief.  But I'm ready for some believable behavior  now that the characters realize that the others are not imaginary and they can exchange phone numbers. They could at least follow one another on Facebook and Twitter.

 

Not everyone is using Facebook and Twitter, and I'm not talking of baby-boomers and older. You will have a harder time to find people in Germany for example using Twitter. As it drives me crazy how many people I know maybe having an account on Facebook and maybe elsewhere but barely using it. So many still insisting to do phone calls. Unless they have to get into the modern digital world because of their job. But aside of that, think they are not all yet sure how real the others are. It might feel like we're watching them for weeks, but the time gone by in this episodes are just a few days at best.

[S01.E05: Art is Like Religion]

We are watching two episodes at a time  - which is making it difficult to distinguish any one episode from another. Eight separate stories is a lot to juggle, along with the over-arching story with Naveen Andrews' character. Was there a reason to have titles for the episodes? None of the single shows seem to have a unifying theme or plot or resolution.

 

Tip:  Look at it more as a movie novel served in 12 chapters. The titles have to do something with what you get to see in an episode, but it's not plain obviously every time.  But seemingly out of place episode titles is not an invention of this show. No, the episodes have no resolution at the end, it's a constantly ongoing story. As suggested, don't look it in an episodic way.

 

 

 

Thoughts at this point:

  There does not seem to be any reason that these particular eight people are connected. There does not appear to be any rhyme or reason why any two characters 'connect' at any particular time. I do appreciate how difficult it must have been to coordinate the actors and locations for some of the scenes.

 

There is always a reason why and when two or more of the sensates connect. Tip: Look at emotional states they are in, at thoughts they might have, at needs, similarities. It can be a bit of a puzzle, but to me that was one of the intriguing sides of this show and reason to rewatch it more than once, to discover all the details, how and why connections happen for example. As in a musical, orchestral work, I think, they worked with themes, motifs, contrapunctus.

Yes it was sure not easy to keep track and ensure continuity. They didn't film chronologically (that I think would have been an unresolvable nightmare) but filmed all scenes at one location, then moved on to the next location, meaning that between the different shots for the connection scenes weeks, months could go by. And great editing was done. You should watch the documentary, the making of after you've seen all episodes, it's on Netflix.

 

 

Currently the runaway Indian Bride story is not very satisfying. But I tend to get annoyed at characters that refuse to be honest about their feelings - especially when the other party does not appear to be a bad person or unreasonable. And Wolfgang the German thief was never portrayed as the type of person who would care whether or not someone was in love when they married. (Maybe the Indian bride-to-be should have considered how many marriages end in divorce regardless of how the couple felt about one another when they got married.)

 

I wouldn't call it runaway Indian Bride story. Kala is struggling with traditions, her respect and love for family, being a  young, well educated and rather independent woman in a certain cultural context. She is not on the run, and it's open if she ever will be because of the marriage. Kala is struggling how to bring conflicting feelings and believes in balance. Think she saw Wolfgang at first as spiritual challenge, I am not sure how much she by now realized how much of a real person he isl. Kala might not big romantically love Rajan, and know that, but neither would I say that she has no feelings for Rajan. True love is in some cultures still not a requirement for marriage, marriage is a partnership to build and create a family and secure status and living. An idea that might sound to people socialized in modern Western cultures, where true love has been overly romanticized, even appalling and disrespectful particular to women, because mostly men seem to win with such marriage concept. I think though it's a more complex matter. Concerning being honest about her feelings to Rajan, I can only say: keep watching.

[Sense8tional Speculation]

I want Jonas to find a way to communicate and visit the other sensates. We've only seen him with Will and Riley (maybe Nomi? I can't remember) so seeing Jonas visit someone like Sun, or someone like Wolfgang, it could make for some interesting scenes. 

 

Unless BPO has found some new freaky way (which I would hope not), Jonas would have to get face to face with the others before he could visit them in a sensate way. That the connection and visiting has certain limits is I think a good thing, for the characters as much as story telling wise. They will have to find other ways to stay in contact eventually. Riley had no direct contact to Jonas, he never visited her, there was only a kinda one sided conference call between Will and Riley, while Will was visited by Jonas and Riley by Yrsa. Jonas only had direct contact with Will, who for the moment is unconscious, and with Nomi.