[S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two]

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William never went back to the apartment.

If William never goes back to the apartment, how does Rebecca find him a few days later? How does the bus driver know the location of his new  home so quickly? The bus driver recognized William from Rebecca's description and told her where he got off. Rebecca probably then asked around to locate his apartment How does a sleep-deprived Rebecca find him firmly settled in his new place of a few days? 

How does Laurel, Laurel's friends and the police not find him just as quickly?

How does Child Services not figure out that the random baby at the firehouse is the one that probably belongs to Laurel who just happens to be a person whose newborn was just snatched? How does child services let a baby go home the next day with a new family when the mother is alive? If they do, how does the fact that Laurel exists not rattle Rebecca's cage? Surely, the legal mother has more claim than the not-proven father who kidnapped him and then abandoned him.  Surely, Rebecca should have mentioned Laurel when Randall got so upset about her keeping William a secret?

Instead of Laurel waking up and everybody acting illogically for plot reasons to get Randall adopted, I'd rather that some random lady had showed up at Laurel's door and <gasp> she was Laurel's sister. Then, Randall can find his aunt and his extended maternal family. As it is, we are probably going to find out that Laurel is still alive and her second son became the new Manny.

The show can be so grounded in reality, but some of these twists are not.

 

 

[S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two]

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I thought they made it clear that Laurel was not using during her pregnancy and had gotten clean, which makes her OD right after that much sadder.

And more likely. Lots of addicts OD when they fall off the wagon because they have built up a certain tolerance for the drug while addicted, but the same dose is too much for their system when they have been clean for a while. 

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But they let him just walk off with the baby. I know the show tried to hand wave it as their being busy trying to revive her, but how did they know he wasn’t kidnapping her child?  This was 1980 - not 1780 - they would have had to file a report about having tended to a woman who had just given birth and whose baby was taken away by some guy who claimed to be her boyfriend.  Probably also called the police to find the baby. And then made the link to the baby left at the fire station. 

The jaded older paramedic did say that they needed to call the cops and child protective services. Then he noticed that William had run off and he said that the cops would need to figure out about that too. 

The retcon to make Laurel not die that day is going to take a lot of spinning. Did the cops just close the case when they figured the missing baby was the one at the firehouse? Did Laurel just meekly accept that her baby was gone and make no steps to get the baby back? Rebecca was so worried about William making a claim, but wasn't worried about Laurel? The police knew who she was.  Please don't turn Jack and Rebecca into baby stealers who used some loophole to take advantage of a situation to do deny Laurel her baby and to keep her secret for so many years. If Rebecca kept a second parent secret after the first, that is going to be ridiculous. 

I'm surprised that with one babynapper in the area, they didn't have some security on those babies at the nearby hospital. 

 

[S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two]

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Having Randall figure it out is the show adding truth to Randall's delusions that the rest of the Pearsons would be dead if not for him.  It's another example of the show saying Randall is right instead of this being his issue to deal with. 

I'm beginning to think that is what the show is telling us. Randall isn't delusional, the rest of the family and viewers just haven't come around that he is always right and questioning him is just standing in the way of his all-knowing greatness. He's not being obsessive, the other characters are being careless and stupid.

Randall isn't wrong to obsess over Deja during the bachelor party - Beth is a heartless being for having fun at the strip club and challenging Randall when he abruptly demand they leave Las Vegas. Of course, Deja was really in trouble. Hope you enjoyed your dance Beth - it meant Deja had to spend longer living homeless. But, then she was also wrong to question Randall's adoption plan, so what do we expect?

Randall isn't wrong to go run for election in a city where he is never lived and doesn't know the people or issues. Randall isn't wrong for not quitting the election when he promised he would if Beth thought it was harming the family. Randall isn't wrong for thinking he could win when all the polls were saying he would lose. Nope. Beth is just a shrew and Jae Won and the preacher just have to learn to accept Randall is always right.

Randall isn't wrong when he thinks Rebecca has memory problems. Rebecca and Miguel are in denial. Randall is right and tries to get her help, but stupid Kevin tries to let Rebecca choose and careless Miguel doesn't track her medicine so Rebecca gets lost. Randall has to drive all the way to the cabin, sort out the issue in 15 minutes and drive home. 

The show: None of the family would last 5 minutes if Randall wasn't there to save them. Don't question him. Accept it!

 

 

[S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two]

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 But if Laurel didn't actually die, then it makes less sense. Was there another drug addict that died nearby and somehow linked back to William?

I'm also having trouble figuring out how Rebecca found William. In "Kyle", Rebecca gets lucky and the bus driver recognizes her description of "Shakespeare".  Presumably, the helpful bus driver drops Rebecca off at "Shakespeare's" usual stop and she asks around for more info. People remember either the guy called "Shakespeare" or the guy who was with an obviously pregnant woman and Rebecca eventually finds him. A long shot, but possible.

In this episode, we see the same bus driver remind "Shakespeare" that they are at his stop and he decides not to get off the bus. Presumably, he never goes back to his apartment where either Laurel is waiting or neighbours are quick to tell him about how Laurel was saved by the paramedics, but for some reason, isn't at home and isn't interested in her child anymore.  If William goes back and Laurel is there, he knows she's not dead and she will want her baby back. What does William tell her? He mistook him for the book he was writing and left him in a handbag in a train station's checked luggage?

If William does not go back to the apartment, how does Rebecca so easily find him? Did the friendly bus driver notice that Shakespeare moved and people in the new neighbourhood recognize that the sad, skinny man who just moved in might be the person the quirky woman is looking for? It had to have been soon after birth because earlier Rebecca was worried that Randall wasn't latching and they should consider bottle feeding him. Babies usually can't go more than a few days without eating. So, in a couple of days the bus driver notices that Shakespeare moved and the new neighbours know him well enough for Rebecca to find him settled in his new home. Seems like a super long shot.

[S02.E17: Control]

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Does any one else think Oliver does not exist? That he is just a handy excuse?

I think Oliver exists, but he is much older. He's the same age as Nolan's son. She never said anything because Nolan had just left her and school to marry his pregnant ex. He can't marry both of them, so she decided to keep it a secret. 

[S03.E20: A Baby Tooth and the Egyptian God of Knowledge]

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Notice how George Sr and Mary always act surprised when he does good or when someone outside the family praise him.

His Grandma too. Earlier in the episode, Dale says isn't into gambling and Connie disagrees because he left Georgie in charge. Dale says that Georgie is a lot smarter than she thinks and she says that know she thinks less of Dale's intelligence.

Perhaps that debate was another factor in the Dale's anger at Georgie. He'd defended the  boy to Connie and now it looks like Connie is right  - right after their later argument. 

[S03.E20: A Baby Tooth and the Egyptian God of Knowledge]

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If the theft had been a result of someone robbing him at gunpoint, I would absolutely agree with you.  I would also agree that shoplifting thefts shouldn't be paid back.  But, from Georgie's own mouth, he left the drawer wide open and unattended.

Georgie thinks that is what must have happened because he can't imagine it happening any other way. Thieves can be quite imaginative. Maybe the employee Georgie wanted to fire opened and emptied the drawer (disgruntled they were not asked to be the manager).

We have to pay in advance for gas where I live. Even though my area has a law that employees don't have to make-up stolen goods, an employee at a gas station didn't know that. He rushed out to stop a gas-and-go and ended up under the car and dragged a long distance. It was gruesome. He was still alive when found, but died shortly thereafter. For $40 worth of gas. Georgie ran out into the parking lot when he noticed that the money was missing. I suspect he would have stood in front of a car to prevent that $400 from leaving.

He should have reported it to the cops, but he should not be asked to pay $400 for leaving the drawer open. Minimum wage was about $4/hour back then. That's 100 hours of work before taxes. Georgie would have been very motivated to do stupid things to stop a thief if he'd spotted them. 

[S03.E20: A Baby Tooth and the Egyptian God of Knowledge]

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Good for Georgie for doing the right thing. 

I don't think that Georgie did the right thing and I think Dale did the wrong thing by taking the money. If you make employees make up what thieves steal, you end up making them take unsafe actions. That's how they end up getting shot or punched or dragged under cars. 

Unfortunately, part of the cost of business is getting robbed. The rewards of running a business are counter-balanced by the risks.  Forcing minimum wage employees to be your free insurance company is not right. You train your employees well, put in anti-robbery devices and you buy real insurance. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the Georgie did close the till and the thief got in some other way. 

[S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two]

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One that doesn't play out in the grand "Jack and Rebecca Pearson Love Story For The Ages" way he has romanticized in his head.

It's unfortunate that Kevin never knew that Jack and Rebecca Pearson Love Story left out a  lot of details. We've seen the beginning and they weren't all that romantic. It's hard to live up to perfection that was never there.

Jack may have wanted the best for his kids and always like to spin the fantasy, but being honest about how things really are can help to avoid giving kids unrealistic expectations. 

That was a real breakthrough moment when Kevin decided to stop trying to chase the fantasy of his parent's instant magical relationship and focus on building a real relationship. 

[S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two]

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In this case, Randall wasn't even the one that started the low blows. Kevin started it when he said that hurtful comment again about how Jack would've lived if he was there.

If you roll the tape from the start of the fight, you will see the low blows start well before that point. Randall starts it off by stating that Kevin doesn't get to show up for one day after 40 years of neglect and decide what is right. That Kevin wanting to support his mother's medical decision is all about Kevin thinking only about himself which is all he ever does.  The fight started low and they just kept digging. 

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Kevin always makes mean and hurtful comments, but no one ever seems to notice because he's attractive.

Randall is extremely attractive as well. 

[S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two]

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 I only commented on Randall's "first" being talking, but Kate's first being her tooth did not escape me. (Don't know if the writers were intentionally trying to hint at her future weight, but I kinda gave that line a side-eye.) And Kevin's was first steps...start of his HS athletic career, I guess.

They had already established that Kevin was the first to walk in "Number One" and Randall is the first to talk in "Number Three".  Those episodes start with Rebecca and Jack videotaping the little ones hoping to catch first steps. Kevin is the first to walk, Kate is second and Randall is third. Randall caps off his walking by saying what they think is the word "table". 

Giving Kate the first tooth in this episode is not exactly PC, but it is one of the big milestones the other two haven't claimed already.  She could have been the first to sit up or crawl or turn over or sit up. Too early at 1 year old for any of them to have legitimately be toilet trained.

[S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two]

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Kevin sounded super pissed off and was just throwing out random angry things in the heat of the moment, possibly just out of anger and possibly things he has thought before but never said, but Randall sounded like he he was reciting a prepared speech about everything he hates about Kevin and what a shitty person he thinks he is, like he has been thinking those things for years and was happy to finally have an excuse to get it out there and still feel like the good guy. 

Randall did have the benefit of knowing the argument was coming while Kevin did not. Randall knew that Kevin would be upset if he figured out that Rebecca was coerced by Randall, so he could practice his justifications and comebacks to Kevin.

Plus, as we saw last week during his fantasy alt-realities, he does actually think all those things about Kevin.  Randall probably feels great that he finally got to tell Kevin what a loser son, loser person and loser actor he is. 

I just can't get over how he keeps dissing of the acting. I can get that his view of Kevin is biased, but how can he miss that Kevin is a reasonably successful actor who is being courted by well-respected directors? Kevin first created a television character that anchored a successful show for years and then flipped from being stereotyped as a himbo to getting meaty dramatic roles - that's not an easy transition to make in the time period given. And Kevin was the architect of that transition by going to New York and producing a play which could demonstrated his dramatic chops. Sure, there is still a huge element of luck, but how can Randall not see any of that? 

Other than allowing Kevin to crash in his basement, has Randall ever really been there and supportive to Kevin? (I guess he went to rehab, but he wasn't really supportive). 

[S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two]

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The Randall I knew and loved for three seasons would NOT have done that to his mother.

In Season 1, William had to pretty much trick Randall into letting him die. William planned the trip to Memphis because he wanted to die there. While there, he fell ill and Randall took him to the hospital. The doctors let him know that William was about to die and Randall wanted to make plans to take him on an airplane and talked about getting him into a study for an experimental treatment. The doctor had to be very firm with him that William only had hours to live.  Randall only gave in to William's death because there was no choice.

Randall had already guilted William into living with them and trying more procedures.  I think we clearly saw the DNA for what Randall did to his mother in Season 1.  He needs to fix things and he thinks if he works at it hard enough, he will. But he can't. He think he can cure his mother, so he will not take no for an answer and he feels justified in forcing her to do it because he knows best.

[S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two]

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So far as we know, he never even referred to Randall as his brother until they were 36.

Randall, like all the characters, is an unreliable narrator. We do know that Kevin has referred to Randall as his brother prior to them being 36. He introduced Randall to his acting coach as his brother in "New York, New York". 

I have a feeling that paintings for sale in Hailey's gallery are by Kevin's son. They kept talking focusing on the paintings (rather than the sculptures) and I'm probably projecting, but the last name of the signature (visible behind her co-worker when he has pencils shoved up his nose - hitting on a co-worker and sticking pencils up his nose in a professional environment - how does he still have a job in 2040?) is Pearson.  Kevin has painting in his backstory (Hailey refers to the artist as a him, so it isn't either Randall's or Kevin's daughter). 

 

[S04.E17: After the Fire]

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Right?  I feel like this show often forgets that at one point, he was a bad enough alcoholic that he had to get rehabbed.  We got what, one episode of him being a drunk.  No relapse  ever apparently.

If he was such a bad drunk at one point, no matter how minute the period of time, certainly his children would fantasize about him being clean and sober.

 

He largely kept it hidden from his children and after he died, they turned him into a saint. Kevin seems to be the only one who recognizes that he had a drinking problem. When it came up during his family rehab session, the other three reacted angrily. Kate refused to accept that he had a drinking problem, Rebecca didn't want her dead husband's reputation besmirched and Randall said that neither Jack nor Kevin have substance abuse problems (Kevin is just saying that to get attention).

I think it is in character for Randall to have alt-reality fantasy Jack drinking because his reality fantasy Jack doesn't have a drinking problem. It was another clue from the writers that Randall still hasn't accepted his parents for who they really are.  

[S04.E17: After the Fire]

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Can someone remind me of how exactly Randall brought up Rebecca's secret in the phone call at the end? I only remember him using his "I was a good son" as leverage.

Randall starts out yammering about what a Good Son he was and Rebecca is kind of "Sure, where is this going?" Then he says the following:

Randall: And I've let things go. Mom...Things that were...KEPT from me. Things that I should have resented you for, but I never did because I knew it would be painful for you. So, I didn't.

During which, you can see Rebecca's heartbreak and she's completely defeated. There really isn't anything else he could be referring to her other than the William secret. It's a major feature of the entire episode (where it is made clear that he hasn't forgiven her for) and unless Rebecca and Kevin did end up killing and burying Marc, I'm not sure what big secret she could have been keeping from Randall.

Randall considers the William secret keeping so bad, he has after-the-fire Jack disgusted with Rebecca in both timelines. in the happy timeline, Jack forgives Rebecca quickly (after he refuses to let Rebecca come to meet William and the meeting goes okay) and never really forgives it in the bad timeline.

Good Son is the child version of Nice Guy. You don't get to blackmail people because you were once a nice kid.

[Unpopular Opinions Thread]

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Jack sprang that house on Rebecca when she was pregnant with triplets, so they would have lived there either way.

But they may have moved and/or bought a new crock pot by the time of the fire if they hadn't been paying so much money for Randall's private school and golf lessons. Plus, Jack put off starting his own company because he couldn't take the risk due to Randall's private school costs. They would probably be living in a new building Jack built following the latest building codes.

Or they could have wasted all their money as some people do and still be living in the same house with a 40 year old crockpot.

[S04.E17: After the Fire]

The other person that was missing from Alt-Happy Thanksgiving? Shauna. How does Jack not dying delete her from Deja's life?

There is a lot to unpack from Randall's perfect and not-so-perfect life alt-lives.

[S04.E17: After the Fire]

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In defense of the writers, I don't think they're asking us to like Randall right now.

The writers love the character, but I don't think they believe he's infallible.

 

I'm no longer sure that the writers do believe that.

When he was whining about going to Kate and Toby's bachelor/bachelorette party because something could happen with Deja. I thought "Here he will finally learn that he can be wrong." He panicked, got worse and interrupted Beth watching male dancers gyrate. She read him the Riot Act. "Yes! Finally, Beth is the one portrayed in the right." Then, they show us Deja living in a car. Lesson flipped. What the writers were telling us is that Randall is in the right and Beth is a shrew. How dare she watch gyrating dancers when Deja is homeless!

Then, he decided to run for councilman of a city several hours away from where he lives. His commuting was making things rough and he was neglecting his family. Beth asks him to quit the race because his win is not likely and it is costing the family too much. He refuses. "Finally! Beth gets to be the voice of reason." Nope, against all odds, he wins and they move to Philly. 

No matter how likely it is for Randall to be wrong, he will be right. I'm sure that the story goes that "thoughtless" Kevin convinces his Mom not to do the trial and she quickly deteriorates. After the incident in the cabin episode, Kevin repents his thoughtless ways and no longer works against Randall so he can now convince his Mom to go on the trial. She instantly recovers what memory she lost and goes on to live a rich life for 12 more years (until she is felled by some mysterious illness that she wouldn't have gotten if people would have listened to Randall). Just listen to Randall, people. Resistance is futile.

 

[S04.E17: After the Fire]

It's interesting who qualified and didn't qualify for inclusion in Randall's fantasy. Kate's life was relatively unchanged (although she earned herself a different husband in the reboot). Kevin is a semi-successful member of Jack's company proud that they scored a contract from the city to build two houses (what major city contracts companies to build two houses? Two apartment buildings, sure. A housing development, maybe. And I guess no individual wants to buy those beautiful houses that Jack designs). Rebecca remains the same - there to dote on Randall - just either happy or sad depending on the vision. Jack is Jack - either forgiving or not of his wife.

Speaking of forgiving Rebecca, I notice that Nicky doesn't rate any mention at all. When Rebecca was telling Jack that she doesn't want to keep any secrets, Jack gets to be shocked and outraged at her behaviour and lack of trust. I guess Jack didn't have the epiphany because he might have remembered that he too had a secret in Nicky. But, Randall doesn't care about Nicky, so he doesn't factor into the fantasy of post-fire Jack's reaction. Sorry, Nicky, enjoy your leaky trailer. William gets your turn as Pilgrim Rick. 

[S04.E17: After the Fire]

I was so angry at Randall emotionally blackmailing his Mom into going into the drug trial.

I felt so bad for Rebecca. As she said last week, she kept putting her life on hold and had finally decided to live it. She was so happy. Now, her son let her know that he actually hasn't forgiven her for the William lie and that he feels that she has unfairly leaned on him since Jack died. So, the least she can do is participate in the drug trial he picked because it is the only thing he's ever asked of her. If she doesn't, he will carry the guilt for the next 20 years. She must say yes now. So, she acquiesces. She puts her life on hold once again.

He appears to have no idea how much she's given him that he needed or wanted. He cannot seem to see the world from anyone else's perspective. He sees nobody else's sacrifices but his own.

He piously tells the therapist that he will not re-litigate the William lie with his Mom, but then he uses it to cut her emotionally open and gives her no path to resolve it. The change in her tone and her facial features after he brings it up is heartbreaking.  He let's her know he has sacrificed himself by sublimating his feelings because he didn't want to give her pain. She must go on the trial so that he does not sacrifice himself again, but it's not actually resolving his feelings about the William lie.

I'm not his therapist, but this entire episode is a convincing case that Randall is a Narcissist.

[S04.E16: New York, New York, New York]

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Going just from memory, but I think he went to New York to be a Serious Actor on the stage after quitting The Manny. I feel like his 'movie star' status came from the Stallone movie which got him Serious Actor recognition

He got the Stalone movie because Ron Howard saw him in the play, so the play was the start of his route to success.

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I know our focus right now is the personality switch between Randall and Kevin, but it isn’t new to this show.  Miguel was hated at first, and people are coming around now.  Jack was saintly in season one until they finally started giving him some flaws.

In addition, Rebecca was also pretty much considered the "bad parent" in Season 1, but the has been redeemed to being a normal parent while Jack was brought down from his St. Jack-ness to the same level.

We saw hints of Randall and Kevin back in Season 1. Randall was moving people into the house and having anxiety attacks even back then. Meanwhile, Kevin gave his "life" speech to the girls and left his opening night to help Randall. If you look back, the writers are generally pretty good at dropping seeds in earlier season that bloom in later ones. I think Marc is one of the few thing that seems to have come in from left field.

[S04.E16: New York, New York, New York]

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I don't think it's ultimately beneficial for kids to think they're entitled to and going to get a fair slice of any particular thing, including time.  Unless you're an only child, you're going to get the short straw from time to time and that's not a bad life lesson to absorb. 

If you look at any individual event in the Pearson children's lives, that would be true. The problem is that if you look at the collective history, Kevin consistently gets the short straw. Randall always gets a long straw, Kate is second in line and Kevin gets one only if he throws a fit.

Randall could benefit from being given a short straw from his parents once and a while, but have we ever seen his parents deny him anything? Has he ever not gotten their full attention when he wanted and needed it (probably only during the sequence fight day).  Randall was shocked when his mother moved to California to help with her new disabled grandchild. He's shaken that he doesn't get his way with her treatment.  If Randall wasn't inherently a pretty good person, the amount of spoiling he got from his parents would have made him completely insufferable.

Sure, the unequal portioning of the day isn't wrong in itself if it weren't for the pattern. And to top it all off, they only have one day in New York because they are headed to Randall's Debate Tournament so he is already getting the lion's share of the trip. 

[S04.E16: New York, New York, New York]

Do we know how much time passed between the events in this episode and the last set? The triptych "Hell of a Week" episodes occur concurrently and that is when Kevin re-filmed the ending to his movie. They finish that week by going to the cabin for the weekend followed by Kevin's-day-with-mom. How long did the director have to re-edit the new-ending of the film for the premiere?

I notice that Kevin got compliments on his acting at the end of the movie - looks like M. Night Shyamalan was right. And now Patty Jenkins wants to work with him? He's doing very well for himself.

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If the reason Kevin and Randall stop talking is about who takes care of Rebecca best, I will be really pissed. I mean, families connect in crisies, they don't fall apart. 

I think they are not talking because Kevin is letting Rebecca choose her own treatment while Randall considers it a betrayal if any sibling doesn't follow his decisions on how Rebecca should be treated. 

Kevin seems to have bowed out of the game of "who is best son" and is just trying to be there for his Mom - to listen and support her desires. While Randall is also trying to do what he feels is best for his Mom, he feels he has already won the "best son" competition and everybody should listen to his decisions. He doesn't want to lose Rebecca and will do anything to save her regardless of the consequences. Kevin has learned to accept things and has accepted that Rebecca will eventually be lost. 

Randall is Jack going into a burning building to save a dog - he'll do anything to save the day no matter the cost. Kevin is Rebecca on the lawn just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I think we will see here that Kevin has a lot of Rebecca in him. 

[S04.E16: New York, New York, New York]

Randall trying to direct Rebecca's treatment was mirrored in Jack's trying to direct the family to the Museum of Natural History. Neither was listening to Rebecca who is actually the one who should be consulted (either because it is her life or because she understands the city better).