S02.E10: From Out of the Rain

[indeed]

An old cinema reopens and mysterious horrors of the past return to Cardiff. Why are people trapped between life and death, questions are asked about the Night Travellers, and what Torchwood can do to stop them.

Tosh: So what are we saying? That two people from a piece of film have decided to go AWOL?

[itsmeyousee]

I love this ep for so many reasons obviously lots of Ianto so a plus for me. But i also liked the idea and  the travelling folks were as creepy as and i really liked the young guy with the film. Plus we got to see Jack's past without it being some be horror story, just a job he did with TW. And it was quiet and everyone just did their jobs, no tantrums or yelling needed. One of my fav eps, i mean Ianto running can't beat that LOL

[indeed]

I think the episode had potential, but it could have used a few rewrites. Not really impressed with this guest writer.

[Swansong]

 

I think the episode had potential, but it could have used a few rewrites. Not really impressed with this guest writer.

I like the idea of it more than the actual results. But I like the scene at the beginning when they go to the cinema. I don't know if this is supposed to be a 'Ianto' episode, but if it is I hate that it doesn't do much of a job of allowing us to get to know something more about Ianto.

[Captanne]

This episode happens to be one of my favourites.  IIRC, that opinion was controversial but I can't remember why.  Sam Starbuck wrote a wonderful revision of the episode that makes it even better.  His work can be found with an easy Google search.  He's an internet maven.  Sam used to write amazing Torchwood fan fiction but when Ianto died, he stopped cold.  Now he's obsessed with Marvel comics.  http://copperbadge.livejournal.com/

Edited October 6, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

I think the episode had potential, but it could have used a few rewrites. Not really impressed with this guest writer.

Is he a guest writer Indeed ? He wrote Small Worlds in Season 1, so i'm guessing he has some connection to the show. He certainly writes more mystical stuff than SciFi stuff. But this one worked better for me.

 

I did post Sam's story or script really in the fanfic topic Captanne cause like you i love it. But i love both, different story to the ep much more of a team story i think, where the ep was showing what was happening to the public through Christina and the film guy and the little boy and Ianto was the only one feeling the affects of the Travellers.

Edited October 6, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[indeed]

I don't know if the Brits would necessarily consider him a guest writer the way they write for their shows, but I got the impression Peter J. Hammond of Sapphire & Steel fame was like a Chris Carter or a Joss Whedon penning an episode for a series. I guess he's really just a TV writer, nothing special, cranking out one episode a series for Torchwood in the first two series. I just remember there being a lot of hoopla at the time over these scripts because he in particular wrote them.

[Swansong]

Aren't they all guest writers hired to write specific episodes except Chibnall? I don't think they had on staff writers. But they did seem to make a big deal out of Hammond, I guess because of his Sapphire and Steel credentials.. I found the episode kind of meh, but I thought the villains were suitably creepy, but I'm not a fan of the way he writers Jack's dialogue even though in Small Worlds it did give me some unintended laughs.

[indeed]

I don't know--seems more like freelance writers that are contracted to crank out the scripts that make a series...and some just seem a little more "special" than others. Noel Clarke wrote Combat, Peter J. Hammond wrote one episode a series (for the first two series), but a few wrote more than one a series (like Catherine Tregenna). Anyway, I think you guys know what this ol' American meant...

I wish this was a "Ianto" episode--that seemed more like spin to get people interested. Because giving GDL more lines to make up for EM being too busy filming other episodes at the same time does not a "Ianto" episode make IMO. We learned one thing about his father...so I guess Something Borrowed was a "Ianto" episode, too.

Edited October 7, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

 

"special" than others. Noel Clarke wrote Combat, Peter J. Hammond

I suppose because they qualify as 'names' in the sci-fi world. The others are more like jobbing writers.

 

 

Because giving GDL more lines to make up for EM being too busy filming other episodes at the same time does not a "Ianto" episode make IMO.

Lol! I agree. I know the character development tends to be hit and miss (mostly miss), but assuming the characters are inter-changeable doesn't help that.

[itsmeyousee]

I didn't watch TW when it first aired, so i have no idea about what was special atm or people brought in to make it special etc. I just figured since they had already written an ep this was their turn in Season 2. But most writers seemed to have a connection to the show or they do the books etc or to RTD and DW, so i assumed this guy was the same.

 

 

Do any of you guys have a link to the story that this was Gwen's ep and they just shoved Ianto in instead ? Cause when i watch it nothing Ianto does or says comes across like it would be Gwen saying or doing it, it seems like Ianto. So if that story is right then there must have been a huge rewrite to me.

[indeed]

That story is right, but don't ask me to remember where it came from six? years after the fact (Torchwood magazine?). I think it was only a few spots (like supposedly that conference room scene or was that just speculation and not confirmed?), not the whole thing, but it certainly doesn't qualify as a Ianto-centric episode IMO. More like, they realized after giving Owen the zombie arc that Ianto didn't have any real focus all season, so here, let's give him FOOTR! Or...Cyberwoman got such hate we're never giving Ianto a full episode again. Let's just pretend he has an episode and pair him with Jack for a mission--COMPLETELY platonically, of course!

[itsmeyousee]

Thanks for that Indeed. And i agree it's not a Ianto ep in the personal sense like his history nor his personal life with Jack. But i think it's a Ianto and Jack ep at work and how the bounce off each other without drama. There is a real ease with how they work together and we have only seen snippets of that and this is more of the whole ep.

 

Which i quite like, i don't need to see the romance to get that it's there. It's there with the ease and no need to over explain things to each other. They are like each others yin and yang so to speak.

 

I know some people have a problem with the look on GDL face during the conference room scene but what was said didn't seem like Gwen. She would push much more, where Ianto let's Jack be comfortable with the bits and pieces he is reveling.So it's things like that , that make me question if it was a Gwen ep, cause Ianto acts and sounds like Ianto. Including him be the most emotional , cause Ianto does show his emotions, even more than Gwen. Gwen doesn't show her softer side that often. She is much more determine to push back, where Ianto more stands his ground if that makes sense

Edited October 8, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Swansong]

 

More like, they realized after giving Owen the zombie arc that Ianto didn't have any real focus all season, so here, let's give him FOOTR! Or...Cyberwoman got such hate we're never giving Ianto a full episode again. Let's just pretend he has an episode and pair him with Jack for a mission--COMPLETELY platonically, of course!

Lol!

 

This is more of a Jack-centric episode than anything.We learn more about his history, we get a sense of why the case is significant to him so it's obviously possible to show them working together and still give the characters development, but they only do that with Jack. Ianto is once again just there for Jack to play off. We leave the episode knowing as much about him going out as we do going in. There's no real sense of why the case is so emotional to him. I mean usually when he's that emotional it's because of a direct emotional connection to the situation, but nothing like that is really established with this case. I like the beginning because there's a sense we're  getting to see what makes Ianto tick, but it's only a brief moment and then it's dropped. It's not as bad as Adrift, but it's pretty close in my mind.

 

 

I know some people have a problem with the look on GDL face during the conference room scene but what was said didn't seem like Gwen. She would push much more, where Ianto let's Jack be comfortable with the bits and pieces he is reveling.So it's things like that , that make me question if it was a Gwen ep, cause Ianto acts and sounds like Ianto. Including him be the most emotional , cause Ianto does show his emotions, even more than Gwen. Gwen doesn't show her softer side that often. She is much more determine to push back, where Ianto more stands his ground if that makes sense

I don't have a problem with the scene or Ianto's reactions. He's not doing anything that stands out. He's just listening to a Jack story, although it seems pretty generic scene. If Tosh were in the chair instead of Ianto little would really change, I suspect. I can see why people see it as a Gwen scene because she would normally be in Ianto's position of being the sounding board for one of Jack's stories. And in fact in Small World we get a very similar scene only with Gwen listening to Jack talk about Estelle and the fairies.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Lol!

 

This is more of a Jack-centric episode than anything.We learn more about his history, we get a sense of why the case is significant to him so it's obviously possible to show them working together and still give the characters development, but they only do that with Jack. Ianto is once again just there for Jack to play off. We leave the episode knowing as much about him going out as we do going in. There's no real sense of why the case is so emotional to him. I mean usually when he's that emotional it's because of a direct emotional connection to the situation, but nothing like that is really established with this case. I like the beginning because there's a sense we're  getting to see what makes Ianto tick, but it's only a brief moment and then it's dropped. It's not as bad as Adrift, but it's pretty close in my mind.

 

 

I don't know if we learn anything else new about Jack either, it's just a case he once worked. As for Ianto emotions , i thought they are coming out because of the Travellers.. Ianto tells Jack he felt something brush by him, Christina mentions that he has been touched, maybe he is connected to the people trapped or something.

 

Maybe it's just me but i really like that it isn't some big emotional personal tale, we have just had Owen's moment then Gwen's. I love that they are just working LOL

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with the scene or Ianto's reactions. He's not doing anything that stands out. He's just listening to a Jack story, although it seems pretty generic scene. If Tosh were in the chair instead of Ianto little would really change, I suspect. I can see why people see it as a Gwen scene because she would normally be in Ianto's position of being the sounding board for one of Jack's stories. And in fact in Small World we get a very similar scene only with Gwen listening to Jack talk about Estelle and the fairies.

I don't have a problem with the scene at all and i actually love the way GDL plays it as Ianto settles in to listen to one of Jack's stories. But i do know the looks he gives has somehow been related to Gwen. But i also think it is supposed to show us the difference between Season 1 and 2. It's now been Ianto that Jack is talking to not Gwen anymore. And that's not meant as a bad thing just things changed after Jack came back. I mean when do we have a scene like that in Season 2 with Gwen ? I can't think of any. Even from Gwen's POV she turns away from Jack in Sleeper, she doesn't want his comfort that she would have wanted in Season 1

[Swansong]

 

Maybe it's just me but i really like that it isn't some big emotional personal tale, we have just had Owen's moment then Gwen's. I love that they are just working LOL

 

It isn't that he has to have a  personal link to the case. The episode suggests a potential one, but drops it pretty quickly.  Ianto doesn't generally get that emotionally invested in cases, that's usually Gwen's terrain, taking the cases personally, but they have him getting all emotional and I can't even say it's because of the kid because even before they know it's only the kid that survived he's in tears. So the point for me is why is this case as opposed to any other case he's involved in the one he's so emotional about? It would be nice to get some sense of that from the narrative. At least a personal connection would give his emotional state some context.

 

And I guess the problem for me is while I think the villains have potential the overall case isn't all that interesting and none of the other guest characters are particularly memorable so the episode feels kind of weak. I could overlook that if at least the episode were being used to give Ianto some much needed character development, but it doesn't do that either. It doesn't really do anything of note so it ends up being kind of meh. I don't hate it like some people do, but I wouldn't particularly go out of my way to watch it again either.

 

 

But i also think it is supposed to show us the difference between Season 1 and 2. It's now been Ianto that Jack is talking to not Gwen anymore. And that's not meant as a bad thing just things changed after Jack came back. I mean when do we have a scene like that in Season 2 with Gwen ? I can't think of any. Even from Gwen's POV she turns away from Jack in Sleeper, she doesn't want his comfort that she would have wanted in Season 1

 

But if the only reason Ianto was in the episode was because of a scheduling issue with EM then obviously they weren't planning to suggest that change at all. If anything they wrote the episode with the intention of keeping the status quo of Gwen being Jack's confidant even this late in the season. It's apparently just a lucky coincidence that Ianto gets to be that.

[itsmeyousee]

It isn't that he has to have a  personal link to the case. The episode suggests a potential one, but drops it pretty quickly.  Ianto doesn't generally get that emotionally invested in cases, that's usually Gwen's terrain, taking the cases personally, but they have him getting all emotional and I can't even say it's because of the kid because even before they know it's only the kid that survived he's in tears. So the point for me is why is this case as opposed to any other case he's involved in the one he's so emotional about? It would be nice to get some sense of that from the narrative. At least a personal connection would give his emotional state some context.

 

 

Two things really, one and probably the major one Ianto was the only person touched by these Travellers and he is the only one feeling what is happening deeper and deeper as it goes on. So to me there is a connection between him being touched and his emotions.

 

Secondly Gwen is put up as the "heart" but when do you feel her emotions to what is happening ? Most of the time i don't get how bad/sad etc from Gwen. I get anger and stubbornness but not a connection to what has happened Take Owen killing Jack in EOD for example who do you feel Jack's death from Gwen or Ianto. I think Ianto, Gwen while knowing Jack will come back is too wrapped up in her own world. Or the cannibals in Countrycide from Gwen demanding to ask the question or Ianto beaten to a pulp.  Or  even Owen being the living dead aside from when Owen will kill himself we don't get anything from Gwen. So i'm not going by what i'm told but what i'm watching.

 

And that includes that this was Gwen's ep and Ianto became more in the forefront cause of EM schedule. Like i have said if this was the case then they rewrote the ep. Because Gwen is not going to act like any of this, she just isn't. Where is the yelling scene at Jack demanding a solution that he doesn't have, how would she spot the difference in the film that's so not her thing and she wasn't paying it any attention at the cinema to start with. She would also demand more from Jack in his story telling. I mean Gwen isn't even that fussed that kids are involved in the ep itself, so that has nothing to do with her emotions either.

[Dizzy76]

It's great to come back and see an active discussion.  I've missed it.  Reading and trying to catch up and I think I land more with Itsmeyousee on how the episode was rewritten when Ianto replaced Gwen.  I remember reading that since Eve had a scheduling issue and everyone decided that zombie!Owen would work better than zombie!Ianto, Gareth was given Eve's part for this episode.  Like everyone else I can't remember where I read about it either.  Nevertheless. I agree that there had to have been some rewrites going on instead of just a lazy switch and drop-in.

 

 

Secondly Gwen is put up as the "heart" but when do you feel her emotions to what is happening ? Most of the time i don't get how bad/sad etc from Gwen. I get anger and stubbornness but not a connection to what has happened Take Owen killing Jack in EOD for example who do you feel Jack's death from Gwen or Ianto. I think Ianto, Gwen while knowing Jack will come back is too wrapped up in her own world. Or the cannibals in Countrycide from Gwen demanding to ask the question or Ianto beaten to a pulp.  Or even Owen being the living dead aside from when Owen will kill himself we don't get anything from Gwen. So i'm not going by what i'm told but what i'm watching.

 

And that includes that this was Gwen's ep and Ianto became more in the forefront cause of EM schedule. Like i have said if this was the case then they rewrote the ep. Because Gwen is not going to act like any of this, she just isn't. Where is the yelling scene at Jack demanding a solution that he doesn't have, how would she spot the difference in the film that's so not her thing and she wasn't paying it any attention at the cinema to start with. She would also demand more from Jack in his story telling. I mean Gwen isn't even that fussed that kids are involved in the ep itself, so that has nothing to do with her emotions either.

This right here is why.  Especially the bolded part.  A normal Gwen episode would definitely have had yelling and demanding Jack to "do something."  I know a lot of people who like Gwen would not see her the way you've described her Itsmeyousee, but for me, this is spot on.

[itsmeyousee]

It's great to come back and see an active discussion.  I've missed it.  Reading and trying to catch up and I think I land more with Itsmeyousee on how the episode was rewritten when Ianto replaced Gwen.  I remember reading that since Eve had a scheduling issue and everyone decided that zombie!Owen would work better than zombie!Ianto, Gareth was given Eve's part for this episode.  Like everyone else I can't remember where I read about it either.  Nevertheless. I agree that there had to have been some rewrites going on instead of just a lazy switch and drop-in.

 

This right here is why.  Especially the bolded part.  A normal Gwen episode would definitely have had yelling and demanding Jack to "do something."  I know a lot of people who like Gwen would not see her the way you've described her Itsmeyousee, but for me, this is spot on.

Thanks Dizzy that was more of my point i don't see Gwen acting like Ianto did in this ep , so how it was Gwen's ep makes no sense to me unless it was rewritten for Ianto.

 

It wasn't mean to be unkind to Gwen , more she has a very assertive nature and wants things to happen immediately whether they can or not. And none of that is in this ep. In fact one of the reasons i love this ep is the calm and logical way Jack and Ianto go through this and that's just not Gwen. As the next ep or even previous ep shows LOL

[Swansong]

For me the issue isn't really whether they just swapped Ianto for Gwen without much thought for their respective characters. I can totally buy these writers would do something like that because they often mold the characters to the given  plot rather than having the plot fit the characters, but that's kind of an incidental issue to me with regards to this episode. Regardless  of whether they did re-writes or not, for a 'Ianto' epsiode I never felt it actually told us anything about Ianto.That wouldn't be much of an issue if they were doing the character development for his character in other episodes, but they're not. I mean it starts off kind of promisingly, but then they drop all that and mostly focus on Jack. Are they trying to tell us that they believe the only really interesting thing about Ianto as a character is Jack?

[indeed]

Are they trying to tell us that they believe the only really interesting thing about Ianto as a character is Jack?

I think there is plenty of evidence in the show (particularly in seasons 2 and 3) to support that.

For me the issue isn't really whether they just swapped Ianto for Gwen without much thought for their respective characters. I can totally buy these writers would do something like that because they often mold the characters to the given plot rather than having the plot fit the characters

I'm pretty sure someone from the writers' room even made a comment about them doing that (I.e., having interchangeable characters)...but I can't remember the details, just being surprised someone would admit to that out loud.

To build on what I started earlier about Gwen being more in the episode initially, I didn't mean it would have been a "Gwen episode" in the same way it was expected to be a "Ianto episode". I only mean that Gwen would have been featured more with lines and screen time in FOOTR, not that we'd learn more about Gwen. But it seemed people expected to actually learn more about Ianto in addition to him being featured more (like Tosh in GBG or TTLM). I believe GDL was the one who came up with giving that "I know it" line about Providence Park more emphasis than was intended because he like the viewers wanted more for Ianto. Let's face it, GDL was the only one most of the time trying to work the material for Ianto to add depth and layers to his character.

[Captanne]

Let's face it, GDL was the only one most of the time trying to work the material for Ianto to add depth and layers to his character.

 

Absolutely.

 

And I am eternally grateful for his effort.

[Dizzy76]

Let's face it, GDL was the only one most of the time trying to work the material for Ianto to add depth and layers to his character.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

And I am eternally grateful for his effort.

Yeah, I think we all can agree that GDL should take most (if not all) of the credit for giving us the Ianto we got.  And I second Captanne's eternal gratefulness for GDL's efforts and dedication. 

 

 

Regardless  of whether they did re-writes or not, for a 'Ianto' epsiode I never felt it actually told us anything about Ianto.

Yeah, I get what you are saying, Swansong.  It really would have been nice but when it came to Ianto and Tosh (and even Owen) they didn't seem to care with giving us the same kind of character info/background stuff that they gave us for Gwen and Jack.  I mean, even episodes that were centered around Owen or Tosh didn't tell us much more about their life.  I guess you can count the things you could assume from seeing their living spaces but just like with Ianto, they waited until Fragments to really tell us anything about who they were before Torchwood and how that shapes who they are now.  Well, unless you count the boardroom scene where we learn that Owen's relationship with his mom was crappy.

 

Actually, excluding Fragments, I think Cyberwoman was the only non-Gwen/Jack character episode that actually told us something substantial about the team member's life.  Guest characters got that kind of episode construction but unless I am forgetting an episode (which is possible) that's pretty much it. 

[Swansong]

I don't think we necessarily need to know someone's home life/family background to understand  them although it's great to get those details.I think we learnt a fair bit about Owen and what makes him tick which is why his death didn't bother me that much. For want of a better explanation the writers do try and write him so we get inside his head, to explain his motivations. That's not really something I feel with this episode when it comes to Ianto.

[itsmeyousee]

I think i view this ep very left of field, cause i don't even think of it as a Ianto ep. Don't get me wrong i love seeing lots more of Ianto but if i would define it, it's a Jack and Ianto ep. Watching the ease which they work together more than the little bits we have already seen. Not them as a couple but just at work , doing TW stuff for once without some personal crisis happening , thank goodness LOL

[Swansong]

 

Not them as a couple but just at work , doing TW stuff for once without some personal crisis happening , thank goodness LOL

I guess since I don't see that as particularly different from how we see them in pretty much every other episode because we only ever see them in work mode with very little, if any, development made to their relationship or Ianto as a character even within the context of their working relationship, that in itself doesn't particularly add much to what I think, even outside of their contribution, is a pretty mediocre episode. I mean they always work well and easily together. We see that as far back as TKKS and Combat so they're not exactly treading new territory with them in this episode and to be honest that feels, like usual, that it has more to do with the actors and their rapport than the writing and its intentions. In terms of the writing they feel pretty incidental for most of the episode.

 

We never really actually see them interacting in personal mode and when there is a 'personal crisis' even when it should affect them that aspect is pretty much ignored. That's not something that is ever really explored with them. So, while it's nice to see them together in any context I just don't think it adds all that much to the episode or them in the end, certainly not enough to make the episode itself a winner. It's just a blah episode to me that has the potential to be a bit more than that both in terms of the villains and the plot and Jack and Ianto themselves and never really is. 

 

And I agree with the comments about GDL. He gets a lot of flack for his acting in some quarters and he's certainly not the greatest actor, but he's pretty much the only reason why I ended up caring about or really understanding to any degree what was otherwise a pretty underwritten character.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

IMO, what David-Lloyd brought to the character was a wonderful sense of comic timing and chemistry with John Barrowman.  As an actor, he was very professional on screen and by that I mean, he never dropped character and seemed to infuse Ianto with so much more than the writers, directors or continuity monkies provided.  As an actor, GDL brought life to Ianto -- which is a great credit to him because, relatively speaking, he was a young actor on a spin-off show with no promise of a future as a series.  

 

One other young actor stands out to me like that  and it was (is) Jesse Spencer (an Australian child actor/soap opera darling) who had a part in the ensemble of "House" -- he played Dr. Chase.  He also took a relatively lame character and brought life to it.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

I guess since I don't see that as particularly different from how we see them in pretty much every other episode because we only ever see them in work mode with very little, if any, development made to their relationship or Ianto as a character even within the context of their working relationship, that in itself doesn't particularly add much to what I think, even outside of their contribution, is a pretty mediocre episode. I mean they always work well and easily together. We see that as far back as TKKS and Combat so they're not exactly treading new territory with them in this episode and to be honest that feels, like usual, that it has more to do with the actors and their rapport than the writing and its intentions. In terms of the writing they feel pretty incidental for most of the episode.

 

 

This is why i like it so much Swansong. I guess we are looking for different things. I like that after the Owen arc and Gwens drama, we did have normal, boring blah work that we have already seen and expanded on. But then i think they way they work together says volumes for their personal relationship.

 

I don't think you can spend the amount of time that they spend together without the relationship being easy and calm and without constant drama. It's part of the reason i can't imagine Gwack working, it would be too draining. But Jack and Ianto trust each other and more importantly listen to each other and compliment each other. I don't think they would be that different in a personal crisis.

 

And i slightly disagree that we didn't see enough of them in a personal sense, cause i don't think we needed it. I think we needed clarification of Jack's feelings whether that was for Ianto or Gwen. But this dependent on which writer wrote the ep obviously doesn't work LOL for anyone.

[indeed]

We saw plenty of Gwen in a personal sense. It would have been nice to see that for the other characters.

We did see Jack and Ianto in a personal crisis while working...and it wasn't all that pretty IMO.

Jack and Ianto work professionally and well together in FOOTR. Just like they would with the others. If you didn't know it, you wouldn't get that they were in any kind of a relationship in FOOTR. Which, yes, can be a comment on their relationship by not commenting on their relationship. At least the writer didn't feel like needing an outsider such as Christina commenting on them; unfortunately, can't say that in COE.

[itsmeyousee]

Jack and Ianto work professionally and well together in FOOTR. Just like they would with the others. If you didn't know it, you wouldn't get that they were in any kind of a relationship in FOOTR. Which, yes, can be a comment on their relationship by not commenting on their relationship. .

I think it does Indeed. These guys are basically around each other 24/7 , there has to be a line for them. Cause to me intermixing that all the time would drive you crazy which is why i said i have a hard time believing Gwack could ever work. I also think they talk to each other differently then they would if it was one of the others there. I think Jack listens more to Ianto than we normally see than with say Gwen or Owen who are more demanding. And Ianto says more to Jack than he would with the others.They also get the job done with minimal fuss which doesn't happen with the others LOL Yes it's little differences but that's what makes them different.

 

 

 

We saw plenty of Gwen in a personal sense. It would have been nice to see that for the other characters.

 

 

Yes i completely agree, including Jack cause aside from his brother and dad bit in Adam, what did we learn that we didn't already know from DW ? But Gwen was the only one allowed an "outside life" so no one ep is going to change that TW is all about Gwen. So i don't get overly fussed about that. It annoys me when Jack changes for one ep or even a scene in the ep LOL then goes back to normal and we are left with major WTF is  going on. But i don't think yes more Ianto want personal info or Tosh or Owen or Jack , it's not going to happen. I just go with seeing him more on screen and enjoying it

[Swansong]

 

Jack and Ianto work professionally and well together in FOOTR. Just like they would with the others. If you didn't know it, you wouldn't get that they were in any kind of a relationship in FOOTR. Which, yes, can be a comment on their relationship by not commenting on their relationship.

True. Or it could be a comment on the fact that the show is reluctant to commit to anymore than acknowledging these two characters are in a relationship. 

 

Not them as a couple but just at work , doing TW stuff for once without some personal crisis happening , thank goodness LOL

The thing is they are a couple and have been involved to varying degrees since the middle of season one and I honestly can't see the point of putting them in a relationship, particularly in this case where there was no real expectation that these were the two characters who were going to get together, and then deliberately making a point of never showing that aspect of them or even really alluding to it except in the barest, most tokenistic way possible. Not that I particularly require that in this episode specifically, it's just a general bug, but, yeah I have to say, that basically pulling the same old same old with them isn't really a plus for me here. It just reinforces the idea for most of the creative team on this show they're still really only a couple in name only and not much more than that. Well except 

when RTD decides to kill one of them off for the drama

 

I get your point, though, that this is an episode with no personal drama. Personally, I don't mind the personal drama beyond the fact that for the most part it tends to be predominantly focused on the same two characters, Gwen and Owen. I don't mind the lack of personal drama either.  But I also don't think that no 'personal drama' means the characters shouldn't be given a sense of, for lack of a better word, motivation for their actions particularly if you're going to have them suddenly being overwhelmed by their emotions in a way that's pretty untypical for them. Acting in ways that aren't really contextualized or explained by the story line is one of the things I think this show does way too often when it comes to Ianto mostly because I don't think they consider him a character in his own right or much beyond a plot point to move other characters' story lines along.

 

When I talk about 'personal' I don't just mean personal details like where they went to school or what their flat might look like or background information or whether Jack and Ianto actually go out on dates or just hang around the Hub. I mean those details are great and I definitely wish they'd done more of that beyond Gwen especially since the only reason they did that with Gwen is because she was the character they wanted us to care about and identify with and so they obviously understood that if you want your audience to connect to a character giving a sense of what makes them tick, showing all aspects of their lives, showing what motivates them etc on screen helps with that.  I mean giving a sense at any particular point in any given story why this particular character might respond in this particular way to events as opposed to just having them behave in a particular way just because the plot needs it or just because the writer or director thought it might look cool or needed to generate a specific response..

Edited October 18, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

Or it could be a comment on the fact that the show is reluctant to commit to anymore than acknowledging these two characters are in a relationship.

And they barely did that in this episode except for Gwen's "local knowledge" comment. Yeah, I just don't think they were intentionally making any real comment about their relationship. If Jack and Tosh had worked the case, it could have played out similarly.

I mean giving a sense at any particular point in any given story why this particular character might respond in this particular way to events as opposed to just having them behave in a particular way just because the plot needs it or just because the writer or director thought it might look cool or needed to generate a specific response.

Where's the fun in that? LOL

This episode was just filler. With a couple tweaks it could have been inserted anywhere in S2.

[itsmeyousee]

 

I get your point, though, that this is an episode with no personal drama. Personally, I don't mind the personal drama beyond the fact that for the most part it tends to be predominantly focused on the same two characters, Gwen and Owen. I don't mind the lack of personal drama either.  But I also don't think that no 'personal drama' means the characters shouldn't be given a sense of, for lack of a better word, motivation for their actions particularly if you're going to have them suddenly being overwhelmed by their emotions in a way that's pretty untypical for them. Acting in ways that aren't really contextualized or explained by the story line is one of the things I think this show does way too often when it comes to Ianto mostly because I don't think they consider him a character in his own right or much beyond a plot point to move other characters' story lines along.

 

 

We have just had 4 eps with Owen and Gwen drama LOL which is why to me this one is sooooooooooooo refreshing. I had it with the personal angst, there is only so much i can take before it's a bad soap opera to me. And while understanding we needed eps with Owen because of his dead/still around state but then to have the gosh awful SB tantrum straight after. I was thrilled just to see them work a case and that it was Ianto and Jack all the better for me but just working was also fantastic. So i didn't feel the need to go into the personal side of their relationship, quite happy that we didn't to be honest.

 

But i don't think Ianto acted out of character with his emotions. I think Ianto was touched by the Night Travellers and as it went on his emotions came out more and more. Unlike anyone else in the ep, so i think the "touching" did something to him. he mentions he felt something brush by him. Christina mentions he has been touched by them, so i think that;s supposed to count. Sure we don't get told that but i infer that, wrong or right that's what i get.

 

I'll go to the Jack and Ianto topic to talk more about their relationship though and why not seeing that much of the personal doesn't bother me.

[Swansong]

 

But i don't think Ianto acted out of character with his emotions. I think Ianto was touched by the Night Travellers and as it went on his emotions came out more and more. Unlike anyone else in the ep, so i think the "touching" did something to him. he mentions he felt something brush by him. Christina mentions he has been touched by them, so i think that;s supposed to count. Sure we don't get told that but i infer that, wrong or right that's what i get.

Lol! I'd say Ianto getting overly emotional over some random victims is pretty untypical for him, but it's not exactly treated as untypical by the script.  The other stuff  just seems like the typical ghostly story cliches: the unseen ghostly figure that runs by, the elderly person with preternatural insights that set the tone or conveniently move the plot forward. I can't say it's ever really treated any deeper than that.  If we're supposed to believe Ianto develops some connection or is affected so deeply by the Night Travellers that his emotions end up all out of whack I can't say I find that aspect particularly well done.

[itsmeyousee]

  If we're supposed to believe Ianto develops some connection or is affected so deeply by the Night Travellers that his emotions end up all out of whack I can't say I find that aspect particularly well done.

Not saying that is was clear or anything but that is what i got out of it. Otherwise why say it ? And say it twice for that matter. To me it was like he was connected to the victims and that's why he walks out of Jack's office like he did at the end. He really wanted this over for ever.

[Swansong]

 

Otherwise why say it ?

Because it sounds spooky and meaningful without necessarily having to really mean anything? Because it sets the ghostly mood of the episode? Because writers love cliches especially when they're writing a particular kind of story? Certainly this writer seems to love having characters spout vague nonsense as a way of suggesting something scary.

 

I mean if they want to show that Ianto has developed this connection to the victims because the Night Travellers 'touched' him in some way, beyond just happening to brush past him, ghost-style, why not show it? Then his getting so emotional wouldn't stand out because that's kind of the problem. It stands out precisely because until that moment there's no real indication that Ianto is in fact feeling any particular connection to the victims and even Christine's rather vague comment doesn't particularly suggest that.

[indeed]

When I first watched FOOTR I thought maybe they were going to do something with the Ianto being "touched" thing and it could be interesting, but nope.

[itsmeyousee]

 

 

I mean if they want to show that Ianto has developed this connection to the victims because the Night Travellers 'touched' him in some way, beyond just happening to brush past him, ghost-style, why not show it? Then his getting so emotional wouldn't stand out because that's kind of the problem. It stands out precisely because until that moment there's no real indication that Ianto is in fact feeling any particular connection to the victims and even Christine's rather vague comment doesn't particularly suggest that.

It's just my take on it Swansong but what's yours ? I mean surely there is a reason Ianto is the only one who is feeling connected to what's in the bottle. Gwen is standing right there she isn't, so it can't be Ianto is doing Gwen's bit. He hears them just like the Night Travellers could, how does he do that ?

[indeed]

It's been a while since I've seen it, but isn't Ianto the one holding the flask and putting it up to his ear? If Jack or Gwen had done that, maybe they'd be able to hear, too.

Edited October 19, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

It's been a while since I've seen it, but isn't Ianto the one holding the flask and putting it up to his ear? If Jack or Gwen had done that, maybe they'd be able to hear, too.

Except Ianto says he can hear someone calling out to him. Why would that happen ?

[indeed]

Because the voice was calling out in the flask? Jack also heard the hurdy-gurdy music, doesn't mean he was touched.

[Swansong]

Yeah he can hear the voice or whatever in the flask. I'm assuming that's why he holds it up to his ear.

 

 

It's just my take on it Swansong but what's yours ?

 

Like you said both Christine and Ianto mention Ianto being 'touched' by the Travellers which presumably is supposed to mean something. The problem is he isn't the only one who is touched by them and none of them have the same reaction. So I have to assume there's more reason than that why Ianto gets so emotional.

 

The most obvious reason to me is that the case matters to him and he gets invested in it and consequently gets invested in saving the victims. He initially goes to the cinema because he's curious about possible rift activity and because of a personal connection to the theatre. Then ends up getting to learn something more about Jack, which I imagine would also appeal to Ianto. Then there's the spooky, supernatural 'getting touched' by the villains aspect. So I can imagine almost getting to save the victims only to not would make someone emotional. My problem is the bits are there, but none of it is ever really amounts to much in the end or just get dropped so Ianto's reaction instead of feeling like a natural evolution of the story line ends up feeling out of left field. Like the episode wanted to end on this emotional moment, but didn't really do anything to earn it. None of that means we'd have to have the melodrama and ott antics of the previous episodes, but they could have still done more with what the episode gave us.

[itsmeyousee]

Because the voice was calling out in the flask? Jack also heard the hurdy-gurdy music, doesn't mean he was touched.

But it's their last breathe, how is that talking ?  And i have no idea about Jack and the music LOL

 

Obviously we see the ep differently, to me the dots connect , you guys not so much but thanks for your answer (smile)

[Swansong]

 

But it's their last breathe, how is that talking ?

Well either way. My point is he holds the flask up to his ear presumably that's how he can 'hear' them so maybe it's the flask's special powers  that allows people to hear through it if they get close enough. And he's the only one doing that.There's nothing really to suggest it's supposed to be anything more than that. Otherwise like Jack hearing random music for no reason, why doesn't Ianto hear random breaths outside of the flask scene if it's supposed to be because he's intrinsically linked to the victims?

[itsmeyousee]

 And he's the only one doing that.

Ianto is the only TW person doing that. He does exactly what the Night Travellers did.

[Captanne]

I may have read WAY too much fanfic (okay, I did.  Don't judge.) but I seem to recall some hints at Ianto being "different".  At least brilliant with computers and machinery (remember how he was in charge of the Land Rover and silently chided Jack for hurting it in the one with the arm people?  And remember how he was able to find it in Countrycide?)

 

I always had the impression he was destined to be like a low-level Radar O'Reilly who was preternaturally able to read the mind of his boss and those around him who needed things done.  He was just able to get absolutely everything done.  

 

He seems to have extra-sensory perception, appearing at his commander's side before being called and finishing his sentences. He also has exceptionally good hearing, able to hear helicopters before anyone else and tell whether or not they are carrying wounded. It was these abilities that earned him the nickname "Radar."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M*A*S*H_characters#Radar_O.27Reilly

[Swansong]

 

Ianto is the only TW person doing that. He does exactly what the Night Travellers did.

 

Well yes he's the only TW character shown holding the flask when the breaths enter it. I assume that's why he can 'hear them'. To be honest, I think we get more evidence that Jack's been 'touched' by the night travellers than we do Ianto. That's probably why they need Christine to spell it out for the audience. And even with that there's still no real indication that he feels particularly connected to the victims in some other wordly way.

 

And I think that's way more than I ever planned to say on the episode. lol. I think it's an ok episode. It's sort of like Cyberwoman I don't hate it the way some people do, but nothing about it particularly makes me want to go out of my way to watch it either. But then again while there were things I liked about Small Worlds I found that kind of blah too, Although that one did give me some unintentional laughs thanks to Jack.

 

 

(remember how he was in charge of the Land Rover and silently chided Jack for hurting it in the one with the arm people?  And remember how he was able to find it in Countrycide?)

Wasn't he annoyed because Jack broke the antenna and got it all sticky with the tape he used which probably just meant more work for him since he'd have to be the one one to fix and clean it? lol  And I'm pretty sure he locates the suv in Countrycide because it has a tracker which is what made events in that season that shall not be named kind of eye-roling. And lol yeah fanfic writers love the idea of Ianto as some sort of empath, but I doubt that's what's supposed to be going on in those episodes. I think he's the one who tracks the suv because everyone else is too busy bitching at Owen and Ianto generally just likes to get on with things and stays out of that kind of thing. I always just thought he was practical and observant and generally proactive about getting things done and that's kind of why I liked him.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

 Ianto generally just likes to get on with things and stays out of that kind of thing. I always just thought he was practical and observant and generally proactive about getting things done and that's kind of why I liked him.

Swansong summed up how i feel about Ianto Captanne. I don't think he was like Radar even though you're right loads of fanfic does have him be empathic. I think he just noticed what was going on around him and he was extremely smart and learnt very quickly and could organise your socks off LOL

 

 

 

Well yes he's the only TW character shown holding the flask when the breaths enter it. I assume that's why he can 'hear them'. To be honest, I think we get more evidence that Jack's been 'touched' by the night travellers than we do Ianto. That's probably why they need Christine to spell it out for the audience. And even with that there's still no real indication that he feels particularly connected to the victims in some other wordly way.

 

 

But ianto does exactly what the Night Travellers do and that's why i connect the dots that you don't Swansong. But i'm curious about your "more evidence with Jack" ? Cause i have no idea why Jack hears the music except Jack seems to have senses that 21st century people don't sometimes in some eps LOL

[indeed]

Ianto generally just likes to get on with things and stays out of that kind of thing. I always just thought he was practical and observant and generally proactive about getting things done and that's kind of why I liked him.

Swansong summed up how i feel about Ianto Captanne. I don't think he was like Radar even though you're right loads of fanfic does have him be empathic. I think he just noticed what was going on around him and he was extremely smart and learnt very quickly and could organise your socks off LOL

ITA

But ianto does exactly what the Night Travellers do

I must not be remembering some things...what did he do exactly like them? He caught the flask, held his hand over the top until Gwen put the cap back on, and held the flask up to his ear to see if they managed to save anyone's breath. If Jack or Gwen or Owen (was he even around after running into the main Traveler guy?) had caught the flask, it probably all would've played out the same way.

And I think that's way more than I ever planned to say on the episode. lol.

Same here. I think we may have had the most discussion so far about this episode. Go figure. LOL

[Swansong]

 

But i'm curious about your "more evidence with Jack" ? Cause i have no idea why Jack hears the music except Jack seems to have senses that 21st century people don't sometimes in some eps LOL

When the Night Travellers first start appearing on the film Jack hears the funny music that no-one else (well Tosh) can apparently can hear and then at the end when the film is briefly exposed he hears it again. The music seems to be connected to the Night Travellers and for some reason Jack can hear it.  In fact Jack is mostly the one who is shown affected/reacting by the victims, not really Ianto. When Owen gives his diagnosis it's to Jack. Even in the infamous flask scene the focus quickly shifts back to Jack. It even ends with Jack hearing the creepy music again. I think the episode does a better, albeit kind of lame, job of suggesting a link between Jack and the Night Travellers than it ever does with Ianto to be honest.

 

 

Same here. I think we may have had the most discussion so far about this episode. Go figure. LOL

Lol! I think it's because the episode has all the ingredients to be entertaining, but still ends up kind of sucking. At least for me. They Keep Killing Suzie is the same way. Kind of frustrating because there's so much in theory to like about it and yet when I watch all I can think is 'what a waste'.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Swansong