S01.E13: End of Days

[indeed]

With the Rift having been opened, people and objects throughout time are falling through it, and being spread across the world. "The thing in the darkness" has finally come, and Jack realises that he is the only one who can save planet Earth from the destruction that "the son of the Beast" will cause.

Bilis Manger: From out of the darkness, he is come.

[itsmeyousee]

This is going to sound really weird. But this ep reminds me of Harry Potter books 6 & 7 , where too much info was held back in book 6 then it all got shoved at us in book 7.

 

So it's not a missed opportunity cause i think the story is there, especially combining it with CJH but too much is happening in this ep it doesn't make sense properly. Like Tosh and her Mum why is her Mum saying something different than Dianne or Lisa. And the conjecture as usual about why people are doing things but why is Gwen opinion lore ? Cause she is the one talking to Jack about the "sightenings"  but neither Tosh nor Ianto act because of what they saw. It shakes them up most definitely but they don't seem to dwell on it or act on it like Owen and Gwen do. It's only after Owen supposedly comes in with a solution and a very dead and bloody Rhys is lying on the table that Ianto and Tosh tell Jack ,no they aren't doing it his way anymore. It reminds me of COE when all of a sudden Ianto is a liar because Gwen doesn't know him, yet you see throughout COE that Gwen doesn't know him on a really personal level anyway.

 

Ianto does he know about Jack or not ? I think you could argue either way on this. They show Ianto have the most reaction to Jack being shot and Jack dead again after the monster but no Ianto reaction shown of when Jack comes back to life, yet Ianto is the one along with Gwen helping Jack and not Owen who not only shot Jack but who is the Doctor at TW. Shouldn't Owen being looking after Jack in some sort of fashion ?

 

Gwen selfishness knows no bounds as usual and not only to the team who have known Jack longer but what about Rhys that she risked the world and all those people died for. She left left him hanging for 3 days ? And not only being the supposed cure cause of her faith in Jack , sorry but that is bulldust. She knows about Jack the others don't. It's not faith it's fact. But she left them while she checked out Rhys to take Jack back to the hub and clean him up and also clean up the mess that happened. Exactly what does Gwen do at TW except make puupy dogs eyes at or yell at Jack ?

 

Still don't know if Tosh's mum is dead or not. I mean Lisa yes we know that but Dianne just flew off into the Rift, so is she dead and Rhys wasn't until Gwen saved him ? Also and i know it's probably just me cause nothing is said but there seems to be tention between Jack and Ianto is that because of CJH or because he has been at the Hub with Jack all night dealing with the Rift. It doesn't seem like the others have been but Ianto isn't surprised or shocked by what Jack is telling them. There is just too much info in the ep, yet i like it.

[Swansong]

 

So it's not a missed opportunity cause i think the story is there, especially combining it with CJH but too much is happening in this ep it doesn't make sense properly. Like Tosh and her Mum why is her Mum saying something different than Dianne or Lisa. And the conjecture as usual about why people are doing things but why is Gwen opinion lore ? Cause she is the one talking to Jack about the "sightenings"  but neither Tosh nor Ianto act because of what they saw. It shakes them up most definitely but they don't seem to dwell on it or act on it like Owen and Gwen do. It's only after Owen supposedly comes in with a solution and a very dead and bloody Rhys is lying on the table that Ianto and Tosh tell Jack ,no they aren't doing it his way anymore.

I feel like this episode is such a missed opportunity and it's one of those episodes that seems to becomes progressively worst the more I watch it. Even with Cyberwoman, which I disliked the first few times watched it, there were scenes I grew to appreciate, but this one just irritates me. This episode should work because it's the culmination of all the tensions that have or should have been building up between the team and Jack and yet it doesn't,  for me, not least because the reasons for the team betraying, at least for Tosh and Ianto end up making no real sense. Tosh and Jack are shown as closer and having a great sense of trust in each other because of their shared experience back in 1942 at the end of CJH and Ianto is willing to leave Tosh and Jack back in 1942 rather than risk a lot of lives, twigs that something is off with Bilis and that he is likely manipulating and possibly creating the situation for his own nefarious ends. And yet all the astuteness and intelligence he shows in that episode pretty much die in this one. The only reason Ianto and Tosh have for believing opening the rift is the way to go is because Bilis says so (why would they trust Bilis at this point?) because of their visions (well more Ianto because Lisa tells him it'll save lives. Still don't know what Tosh's is supposed to be about). And Owen. If Ianto hadn't been shown clearly realizing something is off with Bilis and that he seems to be playing them I could see him being swayed by Lisa vision and not wondering why she just happens to be telling him not only what he might want to hear, but what Bilis keeps saying. But why does Owen have any credibility with the team any more? He's the one who started this mess in the first place because he couldn't deal with Diane choosing to leave him. Worst even at this point he's still harping on about getting Diane back which should be a huge red flag that Owen is still being pretty self-serving and should be treated with nothing, but scepticism. I have a lot of problems with Jack generally and even in this episode, but even with that he still has more credibility than Owen as far as I'm concerned and following him just makes Tosh and Ianto look like morons. Gwen at least has the excuse of grieving. 

 

And I'm sorry. I know that Gwen is the specialist snowflake that ever snowed on this show, especially at this point, but the idea that because Rhys is the one killed the team now decide, the world be damned, it's now worth risking potentially killing off thousand, if not millions of people if there's a slim chance it'll bring Rhys back for Gwen is just ugh, particularly when it's already pretty clear that if it was anyone else on the team experiencing this kind of loss no-way the show would ever expect us to believe that because the needs of the many outweigh the few blah, blah, blah. Not to mention it pretty much negates the growth Ianto's supposedly acquired in the wake of the Lisa fiasco in CJH. I can buy them feeling for her, but the show, at least for me, needed to give them a more compelling reason than Owen "I dated a woman for a week and decided to destroy the world to get her back even though she made it clear she didn't actually want me back" Harper says so and tragic consequences don't apply to Gwen. Like actually utilizing Tosh, the supposed rift manipulator expert in CJH as a rift manipulator expert in this episode, who assesses that it's a long shot, but possibly a valid solution. Worst having contrived some pretty ridiculous reasons for all the team to betray Jack and have it backfire with the rise of Abaddon they then completely sweep the consequences (i.e all those deaths he causes) under the carpet and pretend it never happened. And don't even get me started on Gwen's look how much more faith she has in Jack than the team moment right after she was happy to betray him and watch Owen shoot him without so much as a pause. If they'd made it about her guilt and wanting to overcompensate for that I think it would have been a great character moment, but using it to apparently show once again why she's supposedly so much better than her team mates is just another mark in the negative column for this episode for me. It just makes her seem once again like a hypocrite and not even a still rootable for hypocrite, but a tediously annoying hypocrite. And, yes, lol, to her once again pretty much losing interest in Rhys five minutes after he comes back to life. I guess this is like the retconning incident. Because he won't remember it she can just forget all about it too. 

 

I don't see Ianto as upset with Jack until he tells him no after Jack warns him to stop Owen, but why he'd be upset with Jack even at that point I have no clue. He comes off like a petulant child to me to be honest. What reason does he have to mad at Jack? Because he doesn't magically have a solution for the mess he warned them not to create in the first place? Jack told them not to open the rift like that and Owen ignored him. This is Owen's mess. While I like the idea, in theory, that he won't always go along with Jack just because Jack says so this moment really does him no favours. He just comes off as kind of immature and silly.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Swansong

[Swansong]

Sorry. Double post

Edited June 30, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

We come at this ep from such different views Swansong.

 

Firstly i dont think what any of the team did was "betrayal". Disobeyed yes but there  isn't any lying here to Jack, they are saying it straight to his face. That they disagree with his "we can't do anything" policy. Stupid maybe, wrong sure but not betrayal.

 

Once again i ask why is Gwen's opinion lore ? Neither Ianto nor Tosh act in any way on their visions , Owen and Gwen do but i don't think we can just shove them all in together cause Gwen said so. I'm watching what happened in the ep. And in the ep when everything is a lost cause and Jack has no ideas forthcoming Owen does that's when Ianto and Tosh decide to follow Owen. And to me it seems like to those two in particular they need to try something. Is that motivated by the visions maybe , but at that time they had people and disease spilling through and not one clue as to what to do.

 

As for Rhys being dead and that being a moment, i don't think that has much to do with "Princess Gwen" and that they are trying this for her only cause she is special. That would be a Jack thing. But Ianto being taken back to the horror of Lisa, Tosh having sympathy for Gwen amongst the chaos. It's not that much of a stretch to not want this to keep happening anymore and they are just desperate for any type of solution.

 

Nobody knows they are going to save Rhys or open monster hell and people dead everywhere, like i said stupid maybe, wrong sure. But they are trying to stop the hell that Owen created and quite frankly Jack isn't. Now while Jack is right, his leadership however sucks. All he is doing is yelling at them to clean up a flood that is still happening. And yes Jack saves them and the world at a great cost to himself. I'm not ignoring that part but he still sucked as the leader though LOL

 

Sorry forgot the Ianto bit, Ianto seems to know already when they are in the Team meeting and Jack is telliing the others about what opening the Rift has done. So it seems to me that it's been Jack and Ianto working all night at this. And there is a moment in the background when Jack is yelling at Owen that Ianto looks pissed at Jack. Now whether that's to do with the last ep or it's just the shit from this ep unsure but Ianto isn't a happy bunny with Jack. But he is still doing his job and does it all the way until he decides that Jack's no answer isn't good enough. How is that childish ? Ianto  did everything right in CJH and he chose the right thing over Jack and Tosh. He tried doing what was needed in this ep as well until he changed his mind.

 

Also Tosh for that matter , cause they are close to Jack, Ianto and Tosh can't disagree with Jack.

Edited July 1, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Swansong]

 

Once again i ask why is Gwen's opinion lore ? Neither Ianto nor Tosh act in any way on their visions , Owen and Gwen do but i don't think we can just shove them all in together cause Gwen said so. I'm watching what happened in the ep. And in the ep when everything is a lost cause and Jack has no ideas forthcoming Owen does that's when Ianto and Tosh decide to follow Owen. And to me it seems like to those two in particular they need to try something. Is that motivated by the visions maybe , but at that time they had people and disease spilling through and not one clue as to what to do.

It has nothing to do with Gwen's opinion being lore. My point is the only reason they want to open the rift that we're ever shown is because Bilis told them it would reverse everything. And all their visions conveniently sing Bilis's tune. Even Owen doesn't come up with his own idea. He's just following what Bilis told them because he thinks he'll get Diane back. But at this point they already know Bilis can't be trusted and is manipulating them because he wants something. Certainly Ianto believed that in CJH. He guessed that Bilis was manipulating to get them to open the rift and possibly cause some sort of chaos. And guess what? He pegs it right. So if I buy their actions in EOD I have to buy that Ianto suddenly thinks Bilis is now worth trusting. Otherwise why do they think opening the rift again is a good idea? It's not as if anything or anyone else is suggesting its a good idea. If he didn't already believe Bilis was manipulating them or the episode remembered that Tosh was supposedly their rift expert just the last episode ago and had her concluding that it was a long shot, but might work independent of Bilis urging them to I could buy them thinking it might be a worthwhile risk. But solely off Bilis' say so when they already know he's manipulating them for his own ends, I think, makes them seem dumber than dirt. 

 

And yes Jack may suck as a leader, but frankly so does Owen and much worst when he has the chance to be a leader both in CJH and in EOD, something, again, you'd think Ianto at least would be cognizant of at this point since he was the one who primarily had to deal with his crazy arse in CJH and at least Jack has the plus of actually being right on his side and not seemingly acting or not mainly because he believes there's something in it for him. I just don't see anything that we're shown in these last two episodes that suggests Owen is a better option to follow than Jack and everything that suggests he's actually a worst option even before Jack is proved right. Again.

 

 

Firstly i dont think what any of the team did was "betrayal". Disobeyed yes but there  isn't any lying here to Jack, they are saying it straight to his face. That they disagree with his "we can't do anything" policy. Stupid maybe, wrong sure but not betrayal.

I don't know I would say Owen murdering Jack is actually a pretty big betrayal. And yet even after he shows he's lost it enough to do that they still think it's a good idea to follow him. But I get your point. I should have put the word betrayal in quotes because I do think that's how the show wants to frame it even though I agree them going against him doesn't automatically mean betrayal.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Yes Owen betrayed Jack.

 

But Tosh, Ianto  don't see Bilis, Tosh sees her Mum and Tosh Mum's advice isn't open the Rift. And ianto is shocked by Lisa and likes what she is saying especially about saving people but he doesn't do anything say anything about it until they are getting nowhere and it's getting worse and Owen has an idea. They don't know that's it's all about Dianne again either.

 

I just don't lump them all together. Tosh and Ianto to me act differently than Owen and Gwen do. Owen and Gwen act immediately on their visions and Jack goes along with Gwen's. But neither Tosh nor Ianto do until it's just more and more stuff happens and they aren't doing anything to even try to stop it.

 

And i wasn't comparing leadership styles with Jack and Owen. What i was saying was that they weren't getting anything from Jack and Owen gave them some sort of something to try. To me that's why Tosh and Ianto say no to Jack, cause they are desperate to try something. I think if Jack had tried to think of something or act like he was trying , Tosh and ianto would have acted differently.

[Dizzy76]

I wish my posts were still here because I think it really would have added to the conversation you guys are having now,  Luckily there's a link in the general thread to someone else who gathered all the web content and made a LiveJournal account to house it all.  We can definitely use that.  The downside however is that while they are very organized (which I love!), some of the things that are relevant for particular episodes weren't always released for that episode but included in stuff for the next episode (something that should have been done in the actual episodes) or were part of the general character write-ups.  Not sure if that made sense.  We'll have to look through everything for the relevant stuff but I think they do have everything that I had saved.

 

Anyway, here is the link for this episode and I think there are some things there that you guys could add to your discussion.

 

http://iantos-desktop.livejournal.com/4152.html

 

I particularly like the unsent email from Owen (about meeting a "quiet old man" in a bar and telling him everything) and the hint of Tosh's thoughts about the Real Jack Harkness.  I find it interesting that while Jack thinks that the only person who could get him to open the rift would be The Doctor, Bilis Manger may really have used Real Jack to hook our Jack into either staying or opening the rift in order to get back to him.

 

And I thought there was something about Tosh and Ianto talking to Jack before the big "betrayal" trying to talk to him about what they should do in order to save everyone from dying.  But now I can't find it in my stuff or the Ianto's Desktop posts.  Maybe it was a deleted scene that I'd just read about???

[indeed]

Yes, Jack really should have said something more helpful than do as I say--which is don't do anything! Ianto and Tosh probably wouldn't have jumped on the Owen train if Jack had come up with anything--even a decent pep talk. "My way or the highway" just doesn't cut it sometimes. Things were getting bad with no end in sight and Jack was what, hoping to ride it out? The episode could have benefited from another team meeting where we might have gotten more from Tosh's and Ianto's perspectives on the situation. But oh well. (I choose to see Ianto as being defiant. Jack was pretty snippy with him anyway.)

[Swansong]

 

And i wasn't comparing leadership styles with Jack and Owen. What i was saying was that they weren't getting anything from Jack and Owen gave them some sort of something to try. To me that's why Tosh and Ianto say no to Jack, cause they are desperate to try something. I think if Jack had tried to think of something or act like he was trying , Tosh and ianto would have acted differently.

Well Jack wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear i.e that yes I do have a magical solution to reverse this mess so they decided to follow Owen because at least he was telling them what they wanted to hear. That's basically what it boils down to. Owen has less credibility than Jack, but of course it makes sense to follow him and a vision.

 

That's part of the problem I do think the episode attempts to lump them all together and kind of awkwardly because it wants to use the plot device of the visions to justify the whole team opening the rift. It's not that I can't see them getting to the point of deciding the world is going to hell so why not open the rift and see if it reverses the problem, but it's the reasons given for why they decide on that solution in the first place that ruin the episode for me. 

 

 

The episode could have benefited from another team meeting where we might have gotten more from Tosh's and Ianto's perspectives on the situation. But oh well. (I choose to see Ianto as being defiant. Jack was pretty snippy with him anyway.)

That would have helped the episode for sure. At least for me. Why not have Tosh suggest that they could possibly reverse the damage by opening the rift manipulator again and that it's a long, long dangerous shot, but it might be all they have? Jack could still shoot her down "it's to dangerous blah, blah, blah. I'm the boss shut up" and he could still have been portrayed as a dumbass who mouths off and riles up his employees. But at least it wouldn't just be Bilis and visions telling them to do it.

[itsmeyousee]

Yes, Jack really should have said something more helpful than do as I say--which is don't do anything! Ianto and Tosh probably wouldn't have jumped on the Owen train if Jack had come up with anything--even a decent pep talk. "My way or the highway" just doesn't cut it sometimes. Things were getting bad with no end in sight and Jack was what, hoping to ride it out? The episode could have benefited from another team meeting where we might have gotten more from Tosh's and Ianto's perspectives on the situation. But oh well. (I choose to see Ianto as being defiant. Jack was pretty snippy with him anyway.)

Thank you Indeed. This is what i meant, aside from Jack saying the world will be destroyed cause time is spilling through and it's your fault. I think Tosh and Ianto  in particular needed some sort of aim or idea to try even if it didn't work but they needed something. Gwen and Owen quite frankly are happy yelling about how shit it is, while doing bugger all to come up with idea themselves. But Tosh and Ianto need to work at something then other ideas can come from that.

 

But Jack sends Tosh off to the hospital with Owen why ? Ianto is just locking up people. These two are the ones aside from Jack because of his knowledge that do the computer work and sorta get the Rift. Why isn't Jack at least talking to them about ideas no matter how silly they could be ? But Jack isn't doing anything aside from sacking Owen and it's like he has given up. I think that contributes to Tosh and Ianto listening to Owen at least he has a suggestion, Jack won't even come up with one of those.

[Luckylyn]

I found Jack pretty frustrating because he doesn't seem to be looking for any solutions and just kept telling them not to open the rift.  Jack doesn't want the rift opened, but he doesn't try to find any alternatives either.  On the other hand the team just seems to want to recklessly do something even if they don't know if it will cause more damage.  Jack sends Tosh to the hospital to babysit Owen when she and Jack should be in the hub looking for solutions.  I do believe the team believed that they would be saving lives by opening the rift.  It's just the build up to why they believe it doesn't work for me.  Ianto was suspicious of Bilis in CJH and yet forgets that in EOD.  Why does the team accept the visions telling them to do what Bilis wants?  Where's there common sense skepticism?

 

This was the episode that made me see what other posters were saying at the time about Owen/Jack having a father/son dynamic.  His killing Jack was shocking, and I wonder if Owen since he was the team doctor already sorta guessed Jack was immortal.  Otherwise what Owen did was seriously nuts.  Doesn't he shoot Jack multiple times?