S4.E05: Supersymmetry

[Joe Hellandback]

SUPERSYMMETRY

The Good; Angel versus the demon and all the Wes and Lilah stuff

The Bad; Surely the Prof can think of a less public way to get rid of Fred? All told this is a pretty damn stupid ep

Best line: Angel (to demon who keep's fighting despite having been decapitated) "Come on, I'm holding your head"

Jeez, how did they get away with that? Apocalypses: 5

Angel Clichés In disguise; 8

DB get's his shirt off; 12

Cheap Angel; 5

Fang Gang in bondage: Cordy: 5 Angel: 12 Wes: 6 Gunn; 4 Lorne; 4 Fred; 2

Fang gang knocked out: Cordy: 12 Angel: 15 Wes: 5 Doyle; 1 Gunn; 1 Lorne; 4 Groo; 1

Kills: 1 vamp for CC, 1 demon for Angel and one human for Gunn Cordy: 6 vamps, 3 demons Angel; 41 vamps, 58 and 1/2 demons, 8 humans Doyle; 1 vamp Wes; 12 demons+3 vamps, 2 humans Kate; 3 vamps Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans. Gunn; 11 vamps+ 12 demons+ one human. Groo; 1 demon Fred; 3 vamp+ 1 demon Connor; 8 vamps and 2 demon

Fang Gang go evil: Cordy: 2 Angel: 2 Gunn; 1 Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang: Cordy: 3 Angel: 9 Fred; 1

Characters killed: 46

Recurring characters killed; 8;

Total number of Angel Investigations: Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne

Angel Investigations shot: Angel: 11 Wes; 1

Packing heat; Wes; 6 Doyle; 1 Angel; 3 Gunn; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Cordy: 4 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo Angel: 5; Buffy, Darla and The Transcending Furies Wes; 3; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah Gunn; 1 Fred Fred; 1 Gunn Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky: Connor remarks that CC steals the bedcovers much to Angel's distress. Gunn mentions that Fred kept him up all night and was unstoppable.

Captain Subtext; Lorne calls Angel 'sweetie' when he brings him breakfast in bed. Whilst Connor refuses to bring Cordy any pics of Angel he's fine with everyone else, even Lorne.

Know the face, different character; 4

Parking garages; yep, if I were Lilah I'd just take a taxi every night 6,

Buffy characters on Angel; 16 Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony

Questions and observations; Really not good, silly plot and although there's some powerful emotional stuff really far below par. First time we ever see CC's parents. Now when we see Angel recreate the conference room scene at the Hyperion is that just a photographic memory or a spell he casts? Love the satire on the Angel fans, Angel referring to the 'chatty rooms'. Love Fred's Ripley moment, "I'm the bitch!".

Marks out of 10; 6/10 and maybe that's generous

[MerelyAFan]

I was always curious about how to interpret both Wesley and Gunn's actions in this one when it came to Fred. Wes is less than subtle in trying to elevate himself at her boyfriend's expense with some of his questions, and even his mention that Gunn and Angel are right about what killing the professor will do to her feels like a token ethical acknowledgement for appearances rather than anything he really believes, It is fascinating that to me that her intentions seem to have no real effect on his feelings for her; either its such an unconditional love or maybe he really believes she's not doing anything terribly wrong. Given his morally gray actions that skirted the line between necessary evil for the greater good and revenge  (see his imprisonment of Justine), I'm left to wonder if he views Fred's act in a similar way. 

Gunn comes across as selfless in condemning himself rather the letting Fred have blood on her hands. Yet the episode has an undercurrent of him not quite getting her in the same way Wesley does (his confusion at her paper and presentation is the most blatant example), and it seems to extend to her desire for vengeance a bit as well. He emphasizes that doing this will change her, and it starts getting uncertain if its just a desire for her not be be tainted by a committing murder or if Gunn is troubled at seeing her as someone beyond the sweet and innocent woman he fell in love with. At what point does not respecting her wishes in this go from necessary moral interference to taking away her choice out of a presumption that she will regret it?

Edited November 10, 2018 by MerelyAFan

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, MerelyAFan said:

I was always curious about how to interpret both Wesley and Gunn's actions in this one when it came to Fred. Wes is less than subtle in trying to elevate himself at her boyfriend's expense with some of his questions, and even his mention that Gunn and Angel are right about what killing the professor will do to her feels like a token ethical acknowledgement for appearances rather than anything he really believes, It is fascinating that to me that her intentions seem to have no real effect on his feelings for her; either its such an unconditional love or maybe he really believes she's not doing anything terribly wrong. Given his morally gray actions that skirted the line between necessary evil for the greater good and revenge  (see his imprisonment of Justine), I'm left to wonder if he views Fred's act in a similar way. 

Gunn comes across as selfless in condemning himself rather the letting Fred have blood on her hands. Yet the episode has an undercurrent of him not quite getting her in the same way Wesley does (his confusion at her paper and presentation is the most blatant example), and it seems to extend to her desire for vengeance a bit as well. He emphasizes that doing this will change her, and it starts getting uncertain if its just a desire for her not be be tainted by a committing murder or if Gunn is troubled at seeing her as someone beyond the sweet and innocent woman he fell in love with. At what point does not respecting her wishes in this go from necessary moral interference to taking away her choice out of a presumption that she will regret it?

I always wondered about Fred and how much she was aware of all of this? Her little turn around at the end when the Groo turns up and she makes some very ambiguous remarks to Wes? The dynamic between the 3 is interesting indeed much more so in s5. 

[cleo]

On 10/11/2018 at 11:34 AM, MerelyAFan said:

I was always curious about how to interpret both Wesley and Gunn's actions in this one when it came to Fred.

I think with Gunn- even though it's inconsistent, the Buffy/Angel verse has always tried to emphasize that killing humans is wrong, so that is how I interpret Gunn's actions. I don't think it was because he sees her as sweet and innocent.

On 10/11/2018 at 11:34 AM, MerelyAFan said:

maybe he really believes she's not doing anything terribly wrong. Given his morally gray actions that skirted the line between necessary evil for the greater good and revenge  (see his imprisonment of Justine), I'm left to wonder if he views Fred's act in a similar way. 

This. In terms of Wes, I agree it was a mix of things- he liked that she came to him, but also I just don't think Wes really gives a shit about killing humans being immoral in the way that Gunn does, nor do I think he has concern about the impact on Fred. I think because Wes himself has realized the world is shades of grey, and doesn't have any illusions about 'good guys' always being good. 

I find Fred more interesting in this ep- when she went all vengeancy it reminded me of how she reacted when she found out Connor had sunk Angel. Also, I think it's kind of low to go to the guy that has/had a thing for you because your bf disagrees with you. Not fair to Wes or Gunn. 

Has to be said again I hate the Connor character and him and Cordelia pretty much turn my stomach. This season is a slog. 

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, cleo said:

I think with Gunn- even though it's inconsistent, the Buffy/Angel verse has always tried to emphasize that killing humans is wrong, so that is how I interpret Gunn's actions. I don't think it was because he sees her as sweet and innocent.

This. In terms of Wes, I agree it was a mix of things- he liked that she came to him, but also I just don't think Wes really gives a shit about killing humans being immoral in the way that Gunn does, nor do I think he has concern about the impact on Fred. I think because Wes himself has realized the world is shades of grey, and doesn't have any illusions about 'good guys' always being good. 

I find Fred more interesting in this ep- when she went all vengeancy it reminded me of how she reacted when she found out Connor had sunk Angel. Also, I think it's kind of low to go to the guy that has/had a thing for you because your bf disagrees with you. Not fair to Wes or Gunn. 

Has to be said again I hate the Connor character and him and Cordelia pretty much turn my stomach. This season is a slog. 

But then he goes and kills him himself? Yes, good point about Wes, perhaps why he now caries guns which is something else the Buffyverse has always frowned upon. I agree about Fred too but she was in the depths of her fury? Plus as you point out, Wes was eager to help (to start getting back with the gang?).

 Yeah, Connor brings this season down, unlike Dawn he doesn't get more popular as time goes on but the hunting Angelus arc rescues it for me.