Wesley Wyndam Price: the most evolved character in the Buffyverse?

[Joe Hellandback]

The Buffyverse was all about character growth, no character ever ended the way they started out but surely Wes' journey is the most momentous of all? He starts off as this blundering dandy on Buffy although there are still hints that there may be more to him (saving CC from VampWillow, joining in the final battle). On Angel however he transforms beyond all recognition, he actually borders upon suave, he assumes the leadership role, he experiences betrayal, loss, heartbreak, jealousy and the dreadful pull of divided loyalties. Yet his erring and redemption never seem trite or forced, it all seems perfectly natural, If you'd said at first that Wes would have ended up in an affair with Lilah it would have been laughable but it was actually perfectly plausible and was one of my favourite relationships in the entire series, the scene where he plucks up courage to behead her one of my favourite in the entire series (you know reading that back it comes across as very strange). His death is noble, tragic and poignant all at the same time, reading Slayers and Vampires it seems that Alexis was tired of the role and probably wouldn't have continued into the sixth season which would have been a shame but I do understand it, where was there left for him to go with the character? You wonder did Joss always intend to introduce him into the show or was he only the replacement for Doyle? How would the pair have interacted with one another? 

[Melancholy]

I adore Wesley. To a great extent, his story/character is why I loved AtS instead of just liked it OK. AtS really doesn't have as deep a bench of lovable characters as BtVS. It's not as funny as BtVS. I can't really invest in Angel as a titular hero grounding the show, as I easily can with Buffy. AtS doesn't have as good season plots as BtVS and its grounding thesis can't compete with Buffy's feminism story or coming of age story. However I've ended up coming back to AtS more recently because Wesley is just that interesting and expertly performed and written. 

Someone clever wrote that AtS's whole point is that it's a noir show but Angel completely fails at being a noir hero. As Frank Miller said, "The noir hero is a knight in blood caked armor. He's dirty and he does his best to deny the fact that he's a hero the whole time." Completely at odds with how often Angel calls himself a Champion. However, Wesley actually really is a noir hero. He's dirty and does fucked up stuff, but pre-S5, his focus is on fighting for those beyond himself. 

I read the opposite about Wesley in S6. I read that Joss killed off Wesley only because the show was ending. Joss said that Wesley wouldn't have died if the show continued to S6. For my part, S5 was my least favorite season for Wesley's character. I mean, Wesley was still fascinating and had very awesome scenes which Alexis could knock out of the park. However, it was a comedown. After five seasons of careful, organic, observable personality growth/change, S5 betrays all of that by inorganically regressing Wesley with the memory wipe/insertion. We don't know what alternative timeline was created without Connor- so it's impossible to account for why S5 Wesley is the way he is. That alone kind of destroys the main charm of the character. 

Then, it was a relief after Wesley got his memories back but he still feels somewhat unknowable because there's still a mysterious non-Connor timeline in his head. I also enjoyed his scenes with Illyria but Joss also said that Wesley's relationship with Illyria would have been key to S6. I could see that getting old and eroding Wesley's role as the true noir hero of the show- the mortal guy covered in blood (some of it his, some of it others) fighting against the actual dangers affecting humanity in Gotham/LA. His dynamic with Illyria cut against all of that. 

Maybe an Angel S6 would have been great for Wesley. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that actually, his story was completely told as is and ending at S5 preserved the point of his character. Despite his good moments in S5, I think ending Wesley at Home would have resulted in the most perfectly drawn arc even though I enjoyed the extra year with Wesley/AD. 

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I adore Wesley. To a great extent, his story/character is why I loved AtS instead of just liked it OK. AtS really doesn't have as deep a bench of lovable characters as BtVS. It's not as funny as BtVS. I can't really invest in Angel as a titular hero grounding the show, as I easily can with Buffy. AtS doesn't have as good season plots as BtVS and its grounding thesis can't compete with Buffy's feminism story or coming of age story. However I've ended up coming back to AtS more recently because Wesley is just that interesting and expertly performed and written. 

Someone clever wrote that AtS's whole point is that it's a noir show but Angel completely fails at being a noir hero. As Frank Miller said, "The noir hero is a knight in blood caked armor. He's dirty and he does his best to deny the fact that he's a hero the whole time." Completely at odds with how often Angel calls himself a Champion. However, Wesley actually really is a noir hero. He's dirty and does fucked up stuff, but pre-S5, his focus is on fighting for those beyond himself. 

I read the opposite about Wesley in S6. I read that Joss killed off Wesley only because the show was ending. Joss said that Wesley wouldn't have died if the show continued to S6. For my part, S5 was my least favorite season for Wesley's character. I mean, Wesley was still fascinating and had very awesome scenes which Alexis could knock out of the park. However, it was a comedown. After five seasons of careful, organic, observable personality growth/change, S5 betrays all of that by inorganically regressing Wesley with the memory wipe/insertion. We don't know what alternative timeline was created without Connor- so it's impossible to account for why S5 Wesley is the way he is. That alone kind of destroys the main charm of the character. 

Then, it was a relief after Wesley got his memories back but he still feels somewhat unknowable because there's still a mysterious non-Connor timeline in his head. I also enjoyed his scenes with Illyria but Joss also said that Wesley's relationship with Illyria would have been key to S6. I could see that getting old and eroding Wesley's role as the true noir hero of the show- the mortal guy covered in blood (some of it his, some of it others) fighting against the actual dangers affecting humanity in Gotham/LA. His dynamic with Illyria cut against all of that. 

Maybe an Angel S6 would have been great for Wesley. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that actually, his story was completely told as is and ending at S5 preserved the point of his character. Despite his good moments in S5, I think ending Wesley at Home would have resulted in the most perfectly drawn arc even though I enjoyed the extra year with Wesley/AD. 

That's a good point although I would also say that Angel did get pretty darn down and dirty at some point of the show. Was Angel never as funny or it's characters as interesting? Hmmm, I would query that, some do, some aren't but address that in the episode posts. You do have to slightly agree with Alexis, where was there left for him to go if he'd made it in season six?

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I read the book too and it was just one of the producers complaining about how some of the actors like Alexis grew tired of the hours and wanted to move on, but I doubt Alexis was going to quit at season 5, especially since Joss, whom he has been friends with in real life, was around more. Joss himself has stated many times that he would have never killed off Wesley if the show had go on and I think there was still plenty to explore with Wesley's and Illyria's relationship. To this day, I am sad that this beautifully twisted and weird relationship got cut short. I wonder if it was inspired by Vertigo to a degree (which I would find amusing since there is this other WB show Grosse Pointe about the behind the scenes drama of a teen soap, where the producer character has trouble coming up with storylines and then introduces a Vertigo storyline into the show after his PA pitches it to him).

 

Well, Joss initially wanted to kill him off in season three of Buffy, but kept him alive, because he liked Alexis so much. Still, I don't think he initially had plans to bring him over to Angel, though I could imagine that he would have brought him back on Buffy like they did with Faith. But then when they realized that Glenn Quinn was troubled and affecting production, they realized they had a place for him on Angel.

 

I agree that Angel is a character that is difficult to relate to and Joss himself has stated that he found it difficult to make Angel interesting, because he's more of a traditional hero. That being said, I do think Angel has his fair share of lovable characters, with Gunn, Fred/illyria, Lindsey, Lilah and Lorne and the characters that originated on Buffy. However, they started out rather late to build a team around Angel and if I am being honest, I will always prefer Buffy to Angel, because the group dynamic is there from the beginning. On Angel, it takes two seasons before everything really falls into place.

 

 

Well, Angel only started out as a noir show and initially Angel did not see himself as a hero. The "Champion" stuff really was only introduced later when the show moved from Vampire Detective Noir to "Supernatural Soap Opera", as Gunn later referred to their lives.

 

I disagree, but that is mostly because  i love how Wesley completely unravels after Fred's death, and the stretch of episodes from Shells to Not Fade Away have the most fascinating and interesting scenes for him, because he is practically a broken man, who is highly unstable,  and I do think there was so much more to explore in his relationship with Illyria. I do also love Lineage, the only Wes-centric episode of the season, though I would have preferred it if we had actually seen his real father at some point.

 

The mind-wipe is complicated and you do have to wonder what they changed in the characters' heads and how the backstory tracks. It's kind of the same problem that we have with Dawn over at Buffy, but I think it's best to not think too hard about it and to just assume that there were similar memories of Wes' betrayal planted, just without Connor.

 

The only thing I hate about season five though is how Wesley was kind of sidelined once Spike crossed over and assumed the role of second lead. 

 

To this day, I wish they had done more with the Lilah/Wesley relationship. It was fascinating to watch and both actors had great chemistry. I really wish they had hired Stephanie Romanov full time for season four to really delve into their relationship and not have that cheap stunt of having Evil Cordelia kill her. Angel is a TV show that had the best death scenes of any show, but Lilah's death sucked.

I actually think Wes and Lilah ended at just the right time, it was so bittersweet, just as she had a chance to come across to the good guys and then it was ripped away (a common trope in Joss' work which will recur for Wes AGAIN next season!). Angel was supposed to be an anthology show concentrating on the client of the week, it evolved into the ensemble show we love. 

[Melancholy]

On 10/3/2018 at 3:51 PM, nosleepforme said:

I disagree, but that is mostly because  i love how Wesley completely unravels after Fred's death, and the stretch of episodes from Shells to Not Fade Away have the most fascinating and interesting scenes for him, because he is practically a broken man, who is highly unstable,  and I do think there was so much more to explore in his relationship with Illyria. I do also love Lineage, the only Wes-centric episode of the season, though I would have preferred it if we had actually seen his real father at some point.

 

The mind-wipe is complicated and you do have to wonder what they changed in the characters' heads and how the backstory tracks. It's kind of the same problem that we have with Dawn over at Buffy, but I think it's best to not think too hard about it and to just assume that there were similar memories of Wes' betrayal planted, just without Connor.

 

The only thing I hate about season five though is how Wesley was kind of sidelined once Spike crossed over and assumed the role of second lead. 

Angel does have good characters. Although, Lilah and Lindsey are baddies- Lilah is always an excellent character, Lindsay (S1-2) is hit or miss (S5). I love Lorne. Sometimes I really love Fred, sometimes I think she's a Mary Sue. I think Gunn is lovable in S1-2 and much of S3 but then, in late S3-5, he's interesting but his flaws overtake his character. I don't *like* him most of the time in the latter part of the show. Cordelia is great in S1-2 but then, she goes off the rails and becomes annoying in S3-4. Angel is lovable in S1- and then, he's interesting but hateable in S2-5. I always love Wesley and find him fascinating. I always liked Doyle- but he wasn't around for long and I didn't have enough time to fall in love.

Meanwhile on BtVS, Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles are all interesting AND lovable in S1-5. They even have their interesting, lovable times in S6-7, mainly Xander. And that's the Core Four in screentime and beginning-to-end importance and they're all winners for me. Jenny was lovable. Anya is a mess but she's ultimately lovable. Dawn is likable. Cordelia, when she was on BTVS, is lovable. Riley was likable. Oz was lovable. See, BtVS just has a much deeper bench of good characters even though you can certainly praise AtS's ensemble. 

I think the Illyria scenes that we got were good. I just know that I have limits on how much I enjoy weirdness or emotional scenes with characters who are emphatically not human. The Wesley/Illyria scenes that we got were good but I could see how further scenes would push my limits. 

The mindwipe is a huge problem. It's an even bigger problem than Dawn on BTVS- and that's a big problem. I dislike both of them. At least, Buffy's home life with Joyce wasn't a huge focus on BTVS in S1-4. I do think having a sister fundamentally changes a person and the Dawn-mind add is frustrating because Buffy's alterations are evident but unknowable. 

Connor, though, WAS at the heart of AtS S3-4. He guided most of the stories and completely re-shaped characters, especially Wesley. I have no idea how Wesley can betray on the same emotional scale, without Connor. THAT'S the whole import of the betrayal- that it was Angel's CHILD. 

That said, here's part of the frustrating thing. You say that the show implanted some kind of a betrayal for Wesley. I say that the show didn't implant a betrayal for Wesley because he doesn't act like there was ever a real breach between him and the team. I also have no idea what the betrayal would be without Connor. However, mindwiped Wesley still remember having sex with Lilah. Why would Wesley sleep with Lilah without a breach? I don't know. The whole story is just a huge mess and mangles the non-Angel characters. We 

I also think there was less of a need for the mindjob on AtS, given the weakass story was that told later. I've heard later-season critics say that Dawn didn't need to be mindjobed in- she could have been just some girl that Buffy adopted. I disagree. I think you only can formulate a Dawn character if Buffy has years of emotional connection. On AtS, they needed a re-set on Connor (I guess, for his like 2 eps on AtS S5) but Angel's people didn't need to be wiped in order for the story to be told. Unless the story told is a darker story that I cling to- Wesley and Fred, in particular, would have never worked at W&H if Angel didn't fuck with their minds so Angel killed both of them this season. And that the mindwipes were part of how Angel had become the series villain. However, the show doesn't satisfactorily charge Angel with all of that. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Melancholy

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Angel does have good characters. Although, Lilah and Lindsey are baddies- Lilah is always an excellent character, Lindsay (S1-2) is hit or miss (S5). I love Lorne. Sometimes I really love Fred, sometimes I think she's a Mary Sue. I think Gunn is lovable in S1-2 and much of S3 but then, in late S3-5, he's interesting but his flaws overtake his character. I don't *like* him most of the time in the latter part of the show. Cordelia is great in S1-2 but then, she goes off the rails and becomes annoying in S3-4. Angel is lovable in S1- and then, he's interesting but hateable in S2-5. I always love Wesley and find him fascinating. I always liked Doyle- but he wasn't around for long and I didn't have enough time to fall in love.

Meanwhile on BtVS, Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles are all interesting AND lovable in S1-5. They even have their interesting, lovable times in S6-7, mainly Xander. And that's the Core Four in screentime and beginning-to-end importance and they're all winners for me. Jenny was lovable. Anya is a mess but she's ultimately lovable. Dawn is likable. Cordelia, when she was on BTVS, is lovable. Riley was likable. Oz was lovable. See, BtVS just has a much deeper bench of good characters even though you can certainly praise AtS's ensemble. 

I think the Illyria scenes that we got were good. I just know that I have limits on how much I enjoy weirdness or emotional scenes with characters who are emphatically not human. The Wesley/Illyria scenes that we got were good but I could see how further scenes would push my limits. 

The mindwipe is a huge problem. It's an even bigger problem than Dawn on BTVS- and that's a big problem. I dislike both of them. At least, Buffy's home life with Joyce wasn't a huge focus on BTVS in S1-4. I do think having a sister fundamentally changes a person and the Dawn-mind add is frustrating because Buffy's alterations are evident but unknowable. 

Connor, though, WAS at the heart of AtS S3-4. He guided most of the stories and completely re-shaped characters, especially Wesley. I have no idea how Wesley can betray on the same emotional scale, without Connor. THAT'S the whole import of the betrayal- that it was Angel's CHILD. 

That said, here's part of the frustrating thing. You say that the show implanted some kind of a betrayal for Wesley. I say that the show didn't implant a betrayal for Wesley because he doesn't act like there was ever a real breach between him and the team. I also have no idea what the betrayal would be without Connor. However, mindwiped Wesley still remember having sex with Lilah. Why would Wesley sleep with Lilah without a breach? I don't know. The whole story is just a huge mess and mangles the non-Angel characters. We 

I also think there was less of a need for the mindjob on AtS, given the weakass story was that told later. I've heard later-season critics say that Dawn didn't need to be mindjobed in- she could have been just some girl that Buffy adopted. I disagree. I think you only can formulate a Dawn character if Buffy has years of emotional connection. On AtS, they needed a re-set on Connor (I guess, for his like 2 eps on AtS S5) but Angel's people didn't need to be wiped in order for the story to be told. Unless the story told is a darker story that I cling to- Wesley and Fred, in particular, would have never worked at W&H if Angel didn't fuck with their minds so Angel killed both of them this season. And that the mindwipes were part of how Angel had become the series villain. However, the show doesn't satisfactorily charge Angel with all of that. 

Love Lilah, LIndsey never appealed to me although he has a huge following in some quarters, you should have seen the outrage in The Bronze when he died in the final ep. I agree with you on Fred, I liked her sometimes but other times she was such an obvious Willow clone (a staple character in Whedon's work, see Firefly, Dollhouse and AofS). 

 Personally I loved Gunn growing, you just couldn't keep him as he was but I struggle to think how the mindwipe actually affected the characters in s5?

[Vanessa1214]

Angel being the only one to remember his son reminds me of him being the only one to remember his perfect human day with Buffy. Both are burdens he carries that know one else carried or even knew about. It's heartbreaking that he has to live with those memories, but carry on as if they never happened. He had two chances at love and living part of the human experience, and he gave both up because he wanted what was best for the other person. That's what makes Angel a hero to me. 

I like Wesley, and he had his heroic moments, but he doesn't feel as self-sacrificing as Angel to me. 

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Vanessa1214 said:

Angel being the only one to remember his son reminds me of him being the only one to remember his perfect human day with Buffy. Both are burdens he carries that know one else carried or even knew about. It's heartbreaking that he has to live with those memories, but carry on as if they never happened. He had two chances at love and living part of the human experience, and he gave both up because he wanted what was best for the other person. That's what makes Angel a hero to me. 

I like Wesley, and he had his heroic moments, but he doesn't feel as self-sacrificing as Angel to me. 

That's a great way of putting it although Angel walks away at the end whilst Wes gives his life for AI. 

[Vanessa1214]

I assumed they all gave their lives at the end. It seemed they knew they wouldn't survive the final battle and they went all in anyway. Wesley just happened to die first, on screen. 

I don't count the comics as part of the show, so for me, Angel, Gunn, Illyria, and Spike die trying to save the world. 

[MerelyAFan]

Really what's fascinating about Wes is though he changes a lot, there's an undercurrent of his character that's present through his entire run on Buffy and Angel. That greater good mindset he got from Watcher training manifests blatantly in Sunnydale, especially with his unwarranted arrogance. Yet so many of his decisions, especially when he becomes the functional leader of AI are rooted in that same way of thinking. That mixture of pride and resigned acceptance at doing the necessary evil when no one else will is what drives his greatest mistake in taking Connor and explains his cold aloofness for some time afterwards; not only the pain of believing he was abandoned by his friends, but an emotional isolation he now thinks his bigger picture outlook demands as part of fighting the good fight.

He gradually and subtly reunites with the gang in S4, but the same trusting bonds with the likes of Angel and Gunn are never restored, and while acknowledging the depths of his darkness, his ends justify the means calculations end up being cynically justified at points. Indeed the bitter irony is that Wesley's unsentimental pragmatism in Season 4 is what finally makes him a better watcher for Faith, more impressive rogue demon hunter in LA, and much vindicated decision maker in AI than he had been before. His greatest failures in the past countered with genuine successes, but at the cost of being someone who's lost much of the warmth and close friendships he deeply cherished in season 2/3. In many ways a new man, but certainly not a happier one. 

It does make me wish the show hadn't utilized the mindwipe at least for him. There was an interesting story to be told of Wes immediately reacting to the spell and grappling with the idea of whether it and the decision to run W&H served the kind of greater benefit he could understood or that it was something that served chiefly Angel rather than the good fight. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by MerelyAFan