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amensisterfriend

By amensisterfriend
in Bates Motel [V]

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 1:17 PM, peacheslatour said:

Thank you. I too love the fashions in old movies. The twenties, thirties, forties and fifties. They really knew how to design for real women. Today? Not so much.

Quoted you so you would respond, you seem to be up on this!

Norma married some guy when Caleb got her pregnant, than divorced him and married Sam, Norman's father. Is that correct?

When did Dylan leave to strike out on his own? Did he know Sam, and how abusive he was to Norma and Norman? Why did he leave? He doesn't seem too much older than Norman.

I ask because I believe Norman's illness started when he witness the horrible abuse Norma experienced, and I wondering how Dylan escaped it.

Or do you think Norma's own illness effected Norman just as much as Sam's abuse?

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

10 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Norma married some guy when Caleb got her pregnant, than divorced him and married Sam, Norman's father. Is that correct?

When did Dylan leave to strike out on his own? Did he know Sam, and how abusive he was to Norma and Norman? Why did he leave? He doesn't seem too much older than Norman.

I ask because I believe Norman's illness started when he witness the horrible abuse Norma experienced, and I wondering how Dylan escaped it.

Or do you think Norma's own illness effected Norman just as much as Sam's abuse?

I'm really far behind on the show and I'm not @peacheslatour, but you are correct in your first statement except I believe she was having an affair with Sam and became pregnant with Norman before she was divorced from John Massett. I think Dylan is almost 4 or 5 years older than Norman.

As to when Dylan struck out on his own? I'm not sure if it's been stated explicitly in the show, but I'm guessing it was when he was a teenager--probably 15 - 18 years old. I think he was not only aware of the abuse, but I would guess he was also a target with Norma and Norman. Although, I think it's been said that Dylan would disappear a lot as a kid, so maybe he never knew how bad it really was on a day-to-day basis? And, usually parents shield their kids from the worst of the abuse, so he might not have realized what was really going on? 

Plus, Dylan felt like Norma replaced his own father with Sam and then replaced himself with Norman, so he might have felt a bit like Norma deserved what she got from Sam? Maybe he also only saw the abuse from a narrow lens and figured it was just him who was being abused by Sam? Kids can be very self-centered and if Dylan wasn't home to witness the abuse to Norma and Norman, he could've easily thought Sam was only abusive to him and Norma just let it happen?

Anyway, personally, I think Norman was probably born with the mental illness, but the abuse and Norma ignoring and/or willfully denying it allowed it to manifest itself. I'm not so sure if Norma herself is actually mentally ill as much as mentally damaged, though. But I'm also not sure there's a distinction between those that really matters at the end of the day?

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Thanks TripleD, and peacheslatour! I'm still not sure if Norman was "born with it", or not. I know there's a big debate on "Nature vs Nurture", but I sure as hell don't know enough to make a qualified opinion on it. But the way Norma handled it must have been a major part of the reason why he became what he did. I think she was just so grateful to have the abuse gone from her life, she didn't recognize what it did to her son.

I never thought of Dylan feelings about being replaced! I can easily see why that would drive him away. I just hope to Chuck Dylan never realized how bad the abuse was! He seems to have some real empathy in regards to his Mom and Norman, I hate to think he just walked away!

But I agree, I don't think Norma was ill as much as she was damaged. Poor woman!

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Complexity

Complexity

1 hour ago, Mick Lady said:

I'm still not sure if Norman was "born with it", or not. I know there's a big debate on "Nature vs Nurture"

A person is not born with Disassociative Identity Disorder (DID). Personality is formed as we grow; we are not born with one (or more!).

The general thought at this time is that mental illness is a mixture of nature and nurture. There is a theory called the diathesis-stress model that suggests mental illness is caused by a combination of the stresses in the environment (nurture) and a person's propensity to a mental illness (nature).

Each of us is born with a different propensity of mental illness. For example, some children tend to be more anxious (the baby that cries when sitting on Santa Claus' lap). Some may be more prone to becoming depressed (small disappointments affect them more strongly). And, yet, others seem to be more resilient (few things phase them). If all these children are exposed to the same environmental stresses, the more resilient child may be able to handle it without developing a anxiety or depression while the other children may end up with a diagnosable mental illness.

When applied to Norman, it would mean that his propensity of developing DID and his exposures to environmental stresses (trauma, abuse, sick mother) combined to cause his DID mental illness.

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Okay, now I understand why Norman's illness was more likely caused by his environment. Any ideas why his "other" identity was his Mother? Wouldn't he just have a completely different personality to deal with his abuse?

1 hour ago, Complexity said:

A person is not born with Disassociative Identity Disorder (DID). Personality is formed as we grow; we are not born with one (or more!).

The general thought at this time is that mental illness is a mixture of nature and nurture. There is a theory called the diathesis-stress model that suggests mental illness is caused by a combination of the stresses in the environment (nurture) and a person's propensity to a mental illness (nature).

Each of us is born with a different propensity of mental illness. For example, some children tend to be more anxious (the baby that cries when sitting on Santa Claus' lap). Some may be more prone to becoming depressed (small disappointments affect them more strongly). And, yet, others seem to be more resilient (few things phase them). If all these children are exposed to the same environmental stresses, the more resilient child may be able to handle it without developing a anxiety or depression while the other children may end up with a diagnosable mental illness.

When applied to Norman, it would mean that his propensity of developing DID and his exposures to environmental stresses (trauma, abuse, sick mother) combined to cause his DID mental illness.

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Complexity

Complexity

(edited)
16 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Okay, now I understand why Norman's illness was more likely caused by his environment. Any ideas why his "other" identity was his Mother? Wouldn't he just have a completely different personality to deal with his abuse?

That's really hard to say. My thoughts are that Norma jumped in to protect Norman when he was very young (remember the scene with them both in the closet?). So Norman learned to depend on his mother for protection.

Normally, a child would integrate characteristics of his mother's personality into the his own personality so that the he can protect himself. However, Norman was unable to handle whatever abuse or trauma he experienced as a child. So rather than learning to protect himself from it, he learned to disassociate from it.

The combination of his mother being the protector while Norman is in a disassociative state caused Norman's personality to develop into the split of Norman (his main personality that's unable to handle the abuse/trauma) and Mother (his second personality that handles the abuse/trauma to keep Norman protected).

That might work to neatly explains things for the show, but I don't think it's that easy in real life.

Edited by Complexity
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Complexity

Complexity

(edited)
36 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Wouldn't he just have a completely different personality to deal with his abuse?

BTW, he does have a completely different personality to deal with his abuse: Mother. That's not normal. Most people have just one personality that deals with happy times and bad times. Their personality is flexible and can handle whatever comes. But Norman actually developed an entirely separate personalty (Mother) to deal with his abuse. So you got it intuitively. ?

ETA: You might find the section on DID in the Merck Manuals to be interesting: DID-Merck Manual.

Edited by Complexity
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)
9 hours ago, Complexity said:

A person is not born with Disassociative Identity Disorder (DID). Personality is formed as we grow; we are not born with one (or more!).

The general thought at this time is that mental illness is a mixture of nature and nurture. There is a theory called the diathesis-stress model that suggests mental illness is caused by a combination of the stresses in the environment (nurture) and a person's propensity to a mental illness (nature).

Each of us is born with a different propensity of mental illness. For example, some children tend to be more anxious (the baby that cries when sitting on Santa Claus' lap). Some may be more prone to becoming depressed (small disappointments affect them more strongly). And, yet, others seem to be more resilient (few things phase them). If all these children are exposed to the same environmental stresses, the more resilient child may be able to handle it without developing a anxiety or depression while the other children may end up with a diagnosable mental illness.

When applied to Norman, it would mean that his propensity of developing DID and his exposures to environmental stresses (trauma, abuse, sick mother) combined to cause his DID mental illness.

I wasn't suggesting that Norman was born with two separate identities, but, as you say, I think he was born with whatever allows his brain to create separate personalities and his environment allowed it to manifest. That's what's so tragic about Norman, IMO, his life was a perfect storm of circumstances, but with a slightly different twist of fate, he might've never developed a second personality.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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smorbie

smorbie

On 4/21/2017 at 10:45 AM, peacheslatour said:

What DotDot said. I think Norma and Caleb inherited mental illness from both their parents. What's amazing is that Dylan managed to be relatively sane while it was Norman who got the basket full of crazy.

I've often thought about that.  It's really odd since consanguineous children usually have .....problems.

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

(edited)
10 minutes ago, Complexity said:

I think Dylan was spared from mental illness because he grew up in a different environment. Mental illness is a combination of genetics and environment (the nature/nurture combo).

And lets face it, when he came to WPB he was kind of a gangster. Probably not the healthiest state of mind, yet he overcame it to be a loving family man. He got the best of whatever good genes there were to be had in that pool.

Edited by peacheslatour
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smorbie

smorbie

On 4/22/2017 at 8:17 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I wasn't suggesting that Norman was born with two separate identities, but, as you say, I think he was born with whatever allows his brain to create separate personalities and his environment allowed it to manifest. That's what's so tragic about Norman, IMO, his life was a perfect storm of circumstances, but with a slightly different twist of fate, he might've never developed a second personality.

But, he had a second personality as well as some other type of problems obviously because once integration occurred he was still batcrap crazy

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