Lrdmordain

Ok returning to my favorite thread because I just caught up on all the new Supernatural episodes and kind of got confused on some points. 1. What exactly happens to an angel / demon when they die? I thought they went to the empty and slept, like Cas and apparently Ruby, but God somehow brought Lillith back from a place where he was purported to have no powers or control over, and I feel like lillith isn't the first dead demon / angel we've seen come back, though that could just be my memory playing tricks on me. 2. How does Jo even know Ruby? Jo supposedly didn't come to earth till the fall of the angels, which was well after the apocalypse she was referencing in her flashback. Plus I'm fairly sure Ruby was dead by that point, though I could have my timeline messed up on that. 3. Why do they keep needing spells to get into hell? They literally know two different doors in, one between that devil's trap railroad layout and one that the reaper taxi driver showed Sam. 4. What does and does not count as Jack using his powers? Because a few episodes ago they said he couldn't use any of his powers, but in this episode he clearly does with the memory peek thing he did. 5. If god, at the very least full powered god, is omnipotent, why would he even need to "check in" on Sam and Dean? He'd already be aware of what they're doing / what their plan was just like he already was with their trap him in the mark plan. Plus in what universe would he ever been fooled by Alt. Sam and Dean? He has made multiple points of how special normal Sam and Dean are and the show has a history of characters recognizing each other not by sight but by mere presence. 6. If Amara went "off world" or "traveling" or just "away" when chuck came to her for help back near the start of the season, and he's currently destroying ALL the other worlds, doesn't that mean she'll have to come back to main reality sooner rather than later as there is no where else for her to go? I honestly could keep going for a bunch more little nagging canon questions but really this are the ones that jump out at me.

Thanks everyone for always doing your best to explain stuff, I frankly would be much more frustrated with this show and its lore without all of you. A few quick questions having finished my catch-up / rewatch in preparation for the final season. 1. What exactly is Chuck's plan? I've re-watched the last episode of the last season a few times now and I still don't exactly follow. He's upset that Dean wouldn't shoot and kill Jack in service of a grand sacrifice narrative? He basically sees everyone as "characters" in a story he is writing / crafting and since they aren't doing what he wants anymore he's just ending the story as it were? How does this square with the God Chuck that A. Was just pretending to to be normal writing human chuck, back in season 5 or whatever, and wasn't in anyway involved in anything until Sam and Dean tracked him down. Would that Chuck have eventually revealed himself to be not a normal human and stepped in at some point in the world? or B. Was ready and willing to die / sacrifice himself to Amara for the sake of sparring his creations. Why would that Chuck suddenly become a vengeful writer god who kills when the "story" isn't shaping into what he was trying for Basically I cannot follow current God Chuck's plan, nor how it squares with the character as we've seen it before so I'm hopeful someone else can give some insight 2. Did Jack actually use up his soul to kill Michael? The original woman who gave them the spell said the amount of soul being used to heal / keep Jack together was minimal or that he'd never notice it as I recall, and while I understand the human soul is likely a finite thing, everyone immediately jumps to the idea that Jack completely uses up ALL his soul to kill Michael rather than say the lions share, they basically don't bother to see if he has ANY soul left what so ever. I know given his actions he clearly became more...unstable or less clear headed, but even if he had used it all up they had examples in the past of having no soul not being the same as being evil or bad, yet everyone jumps to treating him like he's suddenly a monster that needs to be killed NOW, way before he accidentally kills Mary. 3. Can Amara bring Mary back? She did it before, and she does have a fondness for Dean, so can't he just ask her to bring Mary back again? 4. Is Lucifer still alive / awake in the Empty? I wasn't really clear on what happened to him at the end of the episode he was featured in. I know the spell / portal got broken, but is that whatever creature that runs the Empty just letting him still be up and around in it?

Ok, I'm working my way through Season 14, up to episode 9 now, and I have a few questions regarding plot threads, in no particular order, I don't recall being solved yet. 1. What was the consequence of Cas breaking the deal with Reaper Billie? As I recall it was supposed to have some universal bad effect but I cannot recall anything having come of it. 2. How was Michael able to stay in Dean after dean told him to get out? They have repeatedly stated that it takes consent for an angel to be there, hell the whole episode with trying to get Sam to throw out his angel proved that the host saying get out makes the angel have to leave, so why does Michael get the pass? Is this another rules don't apply to archangels thing? 3. How come Lucifer, when he was draining grace from other angels and jack, didn't get sick and dying like Cas did when he stole another angel's grace? Same as above? Archangels are immune to rules? 4. What happened the Michael army from the alt world? They kept saying he had an army ready to invade, Lucifer somehow made him the portal spell using ingredients that shouldn't have existed in that world, but we never see anything of his army. 5. They said, in season 13 I think, that there were single digit angel numbers remaining and if even 1 more angel died heaven would shut down, but in the season 14 episode where The Empty invades heaven we clearly see a male angel dead so shouldn't heaven be shut down? He was found by Cas along with Jo from Eureka. And lastly not so much a question but a point that really stupidly pointlessly bother me personally. They said Metatron's heaven locking spell could NEVER EVER EVER be undone yet somehow in the empty invading episode they're suddenly just undone out of nowhere? That is crap of the utmost variety. I know the answer is probably the empty blew open all the doors so to speak when it broke in but no, that's not what happened, you just cheated and broke your own rule and I slightly hate you for it.

Ok I'm binge watching season 13 and I just finished up to episode 5. I have some lore questions that occurred to me while watching thus far. 1. Regarding Cas's return, If neither God, Angels, Demons, not anyone except for that celestial being, has any power over the Big Empty, how was God able to bring Cas back after he got exploded in season 5? The celestial being specifically says that ALL angels and demons go there when they die and Cas was most certainly dead after being exploded. God re-building the body makes total sense, but given this new information God should have not been able to bring Cas himself back, and we know it wasn't the Celestial being's doing because it specifically said that Cas being awake in S13E4 was the first time that had ever happened. So, what, did God go to a place where he had no power, somehow, find "dead" Cas's "unconcious" form, while powerless, and sneak both it and himself back out, again without any powers? 2. If Nephlim are such huge deals, seen as blights to be removed / horrible mistakes / etc..., to the point where they are hunted down just after they are born, how did the waitress that Metatron has Cas kill as part of the expell angels from heaven spell survive as long as she did? Metatron clearly knew she existed despite having been hidden away for years upon years, and we learned last season that angels can "sense" when a nephlim has come into existence, so the angels must have known about her, yet she was left untouched? 3. Did I miss the explanation of why Crowley's "control system" over Lucifer reversed itself to the point where Lucifer could control Crowley? 4. In Advanced Thanatology Ghost Dean says he found out where all the trapped ghosts bodies are from the newly dead teen, having asked him where the doctor his the teen's body. My issue is how would the teen have known where the ghost doctor has hidden his body? The ghost doctor had possessed him and made him drill into his own head killing himself. At that point did he immediately / instantly become a ghost, standing next to his own body, and watch as the ghost doctor walked himself / his corpse to wherever he his bodies? Can ghosts even posses dead body and operate them? I thought ghosts could only posses the living?

I enjoyed the episode for the most part, though I did wonder why only Randy's member berries went "bad" so to speak. Maybe he hadn't taken enough and as such wasn't blissed out enough to not notice? With regards to Gerald being the troll, I actually don't think he is, or rather I don't think he's the only one. What I think is going on is Cartman is renting out the name to various people to let them "troll" without risk of consequence while he, cartman, gets something out of the deal. The good guy act is just a cover so that even if whoever is using the name is caught somehow it cannot be traced back to him in any way

So how exactly does an angel losing it's grace work? When Metatron took Castiel's grace Castiel was mortal but also dying and had to steal another angel's grace to survive. When Metatron's grace was taken he became mortal but otherwise seems fine. That female angel gave up her grace and didn't seem any worse for it, aside from the amnesia, which neither Cas nor Metatron seems to have experienced. Is there a common thread I am missing?

It's more a bother in that it seems to be a light switch change every episode or so. Either it's going to be Dean's week to want to focus on the myth arc and Sam to hunt or visa versa, there doesn't really seem to be any variation. There doesn't seem to be any...consistency for lack of a better term. If Dean for instance has a week where he says they should take a break and go hunting, why would he then switch back to the opposite position the next week, only to switch back again the following week? It simply seems like they're repeating the same lesson, I.E. don't over obsess on the big arc but do remain focused but don't forget to take time for the regular hunting cases but do remember that the threat is looming and needs to be dealt with etc..., over and over again with this trope.

So essentially Billie can't actually do anything to make Dean / Sam die and/or hasten their death, she can only, presumably in some way, stop them from being resurrected? It just seems rather a hollow threat since they have to willingly go with her at least for her to even have the chance to carry out her intentions.

So I'm not sure if this is the exact thread for this, feel free to point me to the correct area if is one, but having watch live over the last season and this one, I have noticed a rather odd trend. In the typical non-story arc episodes it seems as if they just alternate which brother is story arc focused and which brother says they need to take a break / get back to hunting / need to clear their heads. For an example from this season, in the wrestling episode it was Dean who wanted to go to the funeral and it was Sam who said they should stay and keep researching / working. The next episode, Safe House, it's Sam who wants to hunt the case, Dean wants to keep working / isn't up for it. And this occured frequently during the Mark of Cain story last season, one or two episodes of Dean wallowing / wanting to research a way to get rid of the mark, followed by an episode of him being accepting of his fate, then the next episode would be back to wallowing / obsessed Dean. Is this just a trope of the show? Did it occur in the earlier seasons? Is it just done to extend each season's story arc?

So Red Meat brought up an interesting question with regards to Reapers. Do they have any actual power aside from guiding the dead to their final destination? Billie said she wanted to insure that once Dean and/or Sam died they'd not ever come back yet when was dying she just allowed the doctors to revive him, though froze the moment to enjoy it. All she seemed to really do is offer out her hand. Can she not do anything unless Dean accepts her hand?

Shouldn't there be hundreds of Leviathans still around? I know they used a tier system so cut off the head and the body rots sort of organization but killing the leader doesn't actually kill anyone but the leader, all the rest should still be around, just not as organized right? As I recall they never actually found a way to kill them aside from that sacred bone weapon spell of which a lot of work was put into making just the one. Borax hurt them but it didn't seem to actually kill them and they admitted that the beheadings were a temp fix since eventually the heads would re-connect with the bodies. So my big question is where have they been? They were strong enough to overpower pretty much every other type of creature, including angels and demons, yet we've seen nothing of them since their season.

So the latest episode, Safe House, where we see Sam and Dean open the caskets of two previously burned bodies pointed out something that never really occurred to me till then. If ghosts can exist in an object or the smallest piece of a remain of a person, doesn't that mean that when you burn a body you have to burn it down complete ash? Both the bodies they showed still had visible pieces of bones remaining in tact. Does the mere act of burning kill the ghost and the amount of remaining matter doesn't matter? Or do the bones themselves not count in someway?

SueB, I like your idea but didn't we see Luci in that same form looking out through one of the cage's holes/windows at the start of the episode, far before the spell was enacted. That would suggest to me that, at least in Luci's case, he is able to maintain some sort of form in the cage...or somehow he got his old body into the cage after he got put back in.

Wow, I love all these possible explanations. You've all apparently been much better at thinking these things through than I have. So, another one that occurred to me today, Do angels have a physical form outside of their human shells? The reason I ask, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but when we last saw Lucifer he was inside Sam and both fell back into the cage. Fast forward to this season and we see him back in his original host form despite the fact that it shouldn't be in the cage, so that got me thinking, maybe he modified his angel "physical form" to mimic his first host? He has physical mass and was able to hurt Sam, Dean, and Cas so he clearly had something going on beside being a mass of white energy.

Thanks for the ideas. Yeah I meant Sam's body, not soul, pardon that mistake. Another lore question, more recent. Didn't the Steins say that absolutely every single spell in the necronomicon came with a terrible cost and yet they used a spell from it to temporarily free lucifer from the cage with no cost what so ever.