PaulE

No, he likes it. Remember when he was having problems tolerating Thor and Isaac was trying to find out what was wrong, Isaac asked if Nigel had a problem with where he lived, and Nigel replied that, on the contrary, he loved the mansion (and when he first moved in, he was immediately attracted to the "comfy sofa" in the library). It's probably similar to what he grew up in, and he seems to have fairly refined tastes, so I'd guess it would be a relief to move into the Woodstone after having spent over two centuries in that tumbledown shed. But you raise an important point about Nigel's place at the mansion. His moving in and his closer interaction with the other ghosts resulted only from his burgeoning romantic relationship with Isaac. He seems to get on with the others well enough, except for that brief skirmish with Hetty, and they seem to like him or at least not mind him, so I can't imagine anyone would be cruel enough to ask him to leave. Yet the best thing for both him and Isaac would be for them to give each other space so that emotions can calm down--not that they should hate each other but simply spend some time apart. It's going to be awkward being in such close and constant proximity, and for Nigel maybe even painful, because I still think he had no qualms about his own feelings and was ready to put his heart and soul into their relationship as a married couple. But I agree with those who've said that Isaac simply wasn't ready, and I give him credit for calling off the wedding rather than going through with it only to to cause bitterness and recriminations later (perhaps leading to a ghost divorce?). And can you imagine going back to the shed now that Carol's moved in (not to mention Jenkins would probably be gloating over the cancelled wedding)? Ugh--talk about being in hell. It'll be interesting to see what the writers do with Nigel. He's become too prominent simply to drift away and not be mentioned (like that famous story about a character in one of the soaps who went upstairs to get ready for a skiing trip and was never seen or heard from again), yet his relevance has always been connected to his relationship with Isaac. If they still want him to show up from time to time they're going to have to provide some new story lines, which I'd actually welcome, since I basically like him as a character.

We don't know that the snub came only from Nigel. It would be quite in character for Isaac, who in the past has shown nearly as much distaste for the basement ghosts as Hetty. In fact, I'd bet he's more of a snob than Nigel because he's more insecure, and we know that snobbery and insecurity usually go hand in hand. To me, it actually seems more uncharacteristic for Nigel, because he's generally prim and proper. I'd assume he'd have thought it impolite to exclude them. At the very least, breaking the news to Nancy the way he did was pretty unfeeling. I'm sure if their exclusion was solely Nigel's idea and Isaac had a problem with it, he'd have said something. Nigel's always seemed willing to compromise when it comes to making their relationship work. I'm surprised they didn't at least invite Nancy. After all, Nigel did invite her to his disastrous Welcome Tea, and she was the one giving him a tour of the mansion when they interrupted Hetty and Trevor in flagrante, so there's more of a relationship there. Perhaps they felt they couldn't invite her without inviting all the others, but really, none of the upstairs ghosts have much to do with those in the basement except Nancy, and the cholera folks don't seem to be all that interested in mixing with those upstairs, so why would they expect to be invited? I can understand Nancy feeling slighted but not so much the others. I myself would have been torn between not wanting to be rude and hurt anyone's feelings, and the dismal prospect of celebrating my wedding in a beautifully decorated room with a bunch of ghosts with oozing sores clothed in filthy sacks.

Oh, wow, I really didn't think Isaac wouldn't go through with the wedding. I'm very sad about that, though I guess it provides material for next season to explore whether they get back together. Clearly I was wrong about the writers not daring to sabotage this relationship! I felt so sorry for Nigel. In fact, I think it seems a little unrealistic for him to be so understanding with Isaac (at least, that's what Isaac said) this soon. He must be hurt, embarrassed, and disappointed, and I'd imagine it would take a little while for him to come around. What makes it even worse is that he's now living in the house in close proximity to Isaac. I mean, he can't go back to the shed and spend his days watching Carol and Baxter get it on. But I'm not giving up on the Nisaac relationship yet. Baxter finally speaks! Although it's been a long time since he's appeared (except for the bachelor party) and he's now played by a different actor, I noticed they remembered to include the bayonet sticking out of his chest. Hope he doesn't end up regretting his wedding. Interesting twist on Pete's power. And congrats to those who predicted Patience would be the unexpected intruder.

Could be, though I haven't really caught that vibe from Nigel. But even if he is nervous, I don't think it's about himself. I think he's perfectly certain about his feelings for Isaac but could be worried about Isaac's feelings for him, whereas Isaac is worried about his own feelings, not Nigel's, so there's a difference there. At least, that's how I'm seeing it. But, yes, it would be nice if all that gets resolved once they're standing up there taking their vows, and, like you, I think it will be (also, portions of the fan base might riot if this relationship goes south at the last minute!).

Presumably heaven. Remember that Hetty’s Irish maid came back for awhile, so I’ve assumed since then that ghosts—or at least, some ghosts—can make return visits, maybe only under certain circumstances. But presumably she died on the premises, so unless Beatrice did, too, she might not be able to return to the mansion. I’m thinking now that it probably won’t be her, but I still think it would be nice if it were, because by giving her blessing to Isaac she’d be able to release him from whatever remaining guilt he still harbors, and maybe even help resolve his uncertainties about his relationship with Nigel.

But remember the reference to Flat Maria—she’d been stampeded by a herd of cattle and, so Isaac said and hence her nickname, as a ghost she definitely looked as if she’d been. Maybe we just have to add it to the list of ghost inconsistencies.

You know, that preview clip above really got me to thinking. Nigel is so utterly certain about this wedding and their future together that I can't blame Isaac for getting cold feet--I think I'd be getting a case of the jitters if I were him. I mean, if they were both nervous then they'd on an equal level, and each could reassure the other, but to see this guy you love absolutely brimming with confidence and optimism--and innocently trusting that you feel exactly the same--would scare the hell out of me because I'd be so afraid I'd fail him somehow, or that deep down I didn't really love him as much as he loved me. Even without the addition of the stripper fantasies, it'd be a daunting prospect. Whatever happens at the wedding, I really do hope the writers give those two a happy season finale and not a clliffhanger.

You know, it just struck me that she didn't look as if she'd been trampled. Wouldn't you expect a lot of bruises and maybe a broken nose or something? I'm thinking that if you were trampled badly enough to die, you'd look at least a little messed up.

And there's this. The plot thickens . . .

Good point. We know from his dream about Beatrice that there wasn't any sex in the marriage, so I suppose it wasn't ever consummated in the legal sense. He might well have died a virgin, because he just doesn't strike me as the type who'd be able to manage it with a woman, even if he tried fantasizing about men while trying. He certainly couldn't manage ghost sex with Hetty. When you think of it, we also don't really know how experienced Nigel is. We know about his affairs with Jenkins but that doesn't necessarily mean they went all the way. Probably when he was alive and living on his father's estate--if that's what his life was like--he'd have had flings with the occasional footman or stable boy, and if he went away to one of the public schools such as Eton or Harrow, it's likely he and some of his schoolmates would have done some "experimenting," since that sort of thing was known to go on in those places. We're only guessing, but given that he's always been more confident than Isaac about his sexuality, I'm inclined to agree that he's probably had at least a little more experience than Isaac. He's definitely more together in terms of their relationship, and that confidence might also be scaring Isaac a bit--he could be afraid he won't live up to Nigel's expectations. And then on top of that they stock all those little items by the registers hoping you'll add some to your cart while you're waiting on line so that you spend even more money. I mind the out-of-control capitalism less than their assumption that we're too dense to know what they're up to.

Crazy things happen in department stores! Remember the cabbage patch dolls craze? Women went nuts getting their hands on those things. Then there's the Black Friday sales. Those have gotten so bad that some stores have to let people in a few at a time so as to avoid the mob rushing in! Nothing would surprise me about what happened at the DealMart! 😉 Department stores during sales are like Dostoevsky's definition of hell: a place where anything is possible and there is no hope. A few decades ago I lived for a year in Boston, where the flagship store of Filene's was located (a chain that's now defunct). They had an (in)famous basement where items were on sale, and you could get some really good stuff there at bargain prices. Once a year, in the spring, they had a sale on bridal gowns, and the year I lived there, the local evening news actually did a segment on opening day. A huge crowd of young women and their mothers was massed outside, and when the staff unlocked the doors (scooting out of harm's way the moment they did so), it surged in like a swarm of locusts consuming everything in its path. People were frantically grabbing dresses off the racks, trying them on right there, and tossing the rejects aside. Someone would lay down a dress next to them for a moment only to have it snatched away by someone else and they'd then get into an almost-physical fight about whom it belonged to. Some of the mothers would hog four or five dresses and stand guard while their daughters tried on each one in turn. Watching it was kind of like watching the Capitol insurrection: you couldn't quite believe it was actually happening. I'm sure some of these people could have won roller derby contests. While I don't think there ever were any deaths, there were always, always injuries (and, yes, some of those were the result of being knocked down). So I think almost anything, no matter how extreme, could have gone down in that Deal Mart.

He better not have a window seat and try to nap. I am assuming airplane walls are still walls............so that's a long way down. At first I thought he wouldn't need an unused seat but could just sit in a seat that was occupied, since the occupant wouldn't know he was there, but then I remembered it's painful for ghosts to touch livings. I guess he could always sit on the floor if the cabin was full, or even hang out in the cockpit or stewards' area. Airplane walls, yeah . . . Could you imagine falling through and then hurtling down 30,000 feet, maybe into the middle of the ocean? Shudder! Though being weightless he might actually float down, but still . . . That really is a potentially serious issue when you think about it.

She'll tell Pete that she did and he's naive enough to believe her! He's very trusting. Although the ghosts want Pete to travel and tell them about his adventures, this could backfire on him, and they could become resentful. Some people can only handle so much good happening to someone else before they get jealous and resentful. That sounds terrible, but sadly, that's the way some people are. That's what I thought, too. Sam wanted him to go and probably he would have refused if she hadn't agreed to pay his expenses, so she just lied about it. (We already know she knows how to lie.) I think that even Jay, despite his affection for Pete, would object to her actually wasting their money like that. Speaking of Jay and Pete, it was hilarious when he was trying to entice Pete to follow him by jingling his keys, and Sass snapped, "We're not pets!" I've been having the same feeling. i think Isaac does love Nigel but perhaps in a way that's not as committed. Nigel's little speech after their bachelor parties about how the two of them clicked and how he was even more sure about their wedding showed that, for him, this is the real deal. Meanwhile, of course, Isaac's fantasizing about his stripper. And then his remark yesterday about the places he'd visit if he had Pete's power without realizing how it might have made Nigel feel made me a bit uneasy. I think Isaac, if he's not careful, could break Nigel's heart, and I can definitely imagine that their path as a married couple might have some rocks in it next season--which would make for some interesting story arcs, I guess. I'm wondering if his lesser commitment is because he'd lived a pretty frustrating life--he never really got to do what he wanted or be what he wanted to be, so he still has all these unrealized dreams and yearnings. Nigel, perhaps, had a much more successful and fulfilled life (I really do wish we'd get some backstory on him one of these days) and so he's ready to settle down. He's also, I think, generally more sensitive to Isaac's feelings than vice versa despite the occasional needling about Britain vs. America.

Me, too. Jay and Sam seem to have gone all out on the decorations!

Pete and Jay going without Sam was not going to end well, for all the reasons Jay later stated. And no one, living or dead, thought of this from the get-go? I'm also wondering how Pete will find his family on St. Lucia. Even if Sam was able to tell him the name of the resort they were staying at, how would he know how to get there? Those evil Deal Mart ghosts had their own slasher movie plot--with the addition of being able to re-dismember the same person every night. That's a creepiness the show hasn't shown before. And I was sorry for that poor female ghost who has to spend her ghosthood holding a big box. It makes an arrow sticking out of your neck not such a big deal after all.

I think they had two strategies to choose from. In the first, they wouldn't specify what the power was, so the audience will think, "Ooooh, I wonder what it is." In the second, which is what they chose, they'd reveal the power so the audience thinks, "Ooooh, I want to see that."

I agree in principle, but I just saw an ad for the upcoming episode during 60 Minutes that gave away what the ghost power is. So you’d pretty much have to avoid CBS entirely to avoid that kind of spoiler. But you have a good point - we have a Spoiler & Speculation thread, and we have an episode thread for that future episode, so IMO there’s no need for people to be discussing it here. I agree. I had seen the ad also, but shouldn't have assumed everyone had seen it. And since we do have a spoiler thread we need to be more careful about posting for episodes that haven't aired yet--I certainly will from now on.

All that, plus the fact that he died so young. I don't remember if his age was ever mentioned but I've always placed him around 20, even though Roman Zaragosa is older. He never really had a chance to start living his life--or, rather, he was just beginning to when it was snatched from him--whereas the other ghosts did, even if those lives weren't necessarily always happy. I'd imagine the yearning for what he can never know is bound to create a sense of loneliness and isolation, especially because the other ghosts really wouldn't be able to relate to that personally, though I'm sure they'd be sympathetic. Given that we've seen he was a decent person at heart, it's likely that he did. The kind of life he was living is bound to become exhausting after awhile, and I think more and more he'd have been starting to recognize how empty and meaningless and futile it was. Had he lived longer, he'd probably have started to realize he had to shed some aspects of that life or it would destroy him, which is what happened to some of the real-life finance bros (and women, for that matter) from the early 2000s. Deep down, he might be starting to regret not being able to find someone, settle down, and have a family. I don't see him as the sort to despair and take his own life, but there certainly might have been occasional thoughts about that. It would be especially poignant if the writers created a story line like that for Trevor, because Asher Grodman has mentioned in interviews that he's suffered from serious depression in the past--can't remember if he had to go on meds but psychotherapy was involved.

It would be nice if she could come down for the wedding and give them her blessing so that Isaac would know she truly forgave him and wants to see him happy.

I loved this, because it shows that Isaac does have a compassionate side even though he's usually too self-absorbed to bother showing it. We need a little more of that--not all the time, because Isaac's cluelessness is partly what makes him funny, but every now and then so he doesn't become obnoxious. I actually did think we were in for another "it's all about me" session toward the beginning of the episode when he told Stephanie that having her boyfriend sucked off wasn't nearly as important as planning his dinosaur-themed wedding, but fortunately he stepped up to the plate with Hetty. Speaking of Hetty, this episode made me think that, in one aspect, she has the most nightmarish existence of all the ghosts. It's true that she's at home in familiar surroundings, which none of the other ghosts have (except partly for Sass), but think about it: This is the house in which she was coerced into a loveless marriage and lived out the misery and frustration of that marriage, and where she committed suicide. Later, she had to watch helplessly as her son became a murderer, and since then has had the constant reminder of that because of Alberta's presence, as well as the guilt of knowing Alberta didn't know the truth for so long. This wasn't a happy house for Hetty. Most of us, if alive, would probably want to move as far away as possible from those bad vibes, but she can't even do that. She's got to be under a lot of emotional stress because of all this--I know I would be.

We finally learned the answers to two of our long-standing questions in this episode: when and how Hetty died. They fooled us with her story about overdosing and then hit us with the shocker of how she really died--that was intense. I didn't expect the episode to turn so dark, especially after that hilarious conversation between Hetty and her lawyer at the beginning when she congratulates him on his wife becoming the governor's mistress and he replies that it's a step up for his family. Plus regretting that the state wants children to go to school during their most productive years when their tiny fingers can still fit inside the nooks and crannies of the machinery. Oh Hetty, you're lucky you're not in hell with Elias. I also liked the writers' nod to viewers' confusion about some of the illogical aspects of ghostly existence, such as their not knowing why they can go through walls but not floors--maybe some of them read the posts on this forum! Nigel wasn't there, either, and I'd consider him more important than Carol. I think we just have to accept that the secondary ghosts--Carol, Nancy, Nigel, Stephanie--aren't always going to be present in every episode. Maybe the writers feel the group would become too large and unwieldy to write for otherwise.

Exactly. I'd like to see the ghosts doing something to help Jay out in some way. Yes to this. And it then becomes an issue: why would he keep putting up with this? I think his character has been well developed and he deserves better than wearing a virtual "kick me" sign all the time. I also like the theory that the reason this season has been a bit more mean-spirited is because of Flower's absence. When you think about it, it's in the ghosts' best interests to see that they don't inconvenience Jay and Sam too much. After all, they could get so fed up they sell the property (I'm sure they'd get a good price for it, enough to start over elsewhere), and then the ghosts would lose all their agency unless the new owner also has an accident that allows them to see the ghosts as Sam did. And what if the new owner decided to tear down the house and, say, use the property as farmland? Now you've got a bunch of ghosts forced to live in the open, essentially homeless. Thor and Sass might be able to cope with that but I'm not sure about the others. Just sayin'.

That's exactly what I assumed too! Only I was too chicken to write it and you weren't.

This comment made me think about how I whipsaw from harshly criticizing the ghosts for their selfishness to having a certain amount of sympathy for them. It really must be awful for these guys, who were once alive, to no longer have any agency. Can't enjoy food, can't change clothes, can't travel, can't pick up a book and read, can't even completely have sex (I think Sass said that about sex once, right?). And yet they can remember what they're now missing, which makes it even worse. I honestly can understand how desperation and privation--even a certain amount of bewilderment--might make them selfish. But then I go back to thinking they need to be smacked. I guess that says something about the humanity with which the writers have invested these characters.

That’s an interesting thought. I am not sure I can remember Sam having a personal interaction with them, of the kind where you are just chatting with a friend because you find it rewarding. Has she done that? She seems to always just react to their demands and situations. Yes, the ghosts really are not Sam’s friends, are they? They are a burden she has to deal with, that’s pretty much it. I am not sure that understanding Sam’s situation and feeling for her means that what she is doing to Jay is OK. She may be miserable, yes, but should she be spreading this misery onto Jay or should she be making an effort to shield him from it? What might've worked would have been if Jay had agreed to, say, go to his bedroom for one or two hours at a stated time each day to allow Alberta and Saul to have their alone time, but beyond that it's catch as catch can. An arrangement like that could actually be funny if the guests asked Sam why he always did that every day and she'd have to make up an excuse, like he's really into meditation and is militant about never missing a day. Something like that would at least have been a compromise. As for Sam's ghostly interactions, i do get the feeling that, although much of it is about satisfying their demands, she's gotten to know them as personalities over time and has a certain affection for them as a result--she might not like all of them all the time but they're still real to her and perhaps she's grown to appreciate their good qualities and maybe put up with some of their faults and foibles or at least understand why they have them. As we all do in real life with our relationships, right? Jay, however, can't do this; he doesn't really "know" them the way Sam does. That's what I meant by interacting. It would be nice to see her just chatting with a ghost now and then--maybe asking Sass about what daily life was like for his tribe or Nigel about his life in England. But I suppose that wouldn't make for much of a comedy plot. And, yes, as much as I criticize Sam for being an unsupportive wife, I can't imagine what it must be like to never be free of ghosts no matter where you go. Why she hasn't gone completely starkers is, I suppose, a testimony to some kind of inner strength, doormat though she might be.