Holden308

The really sad thing is that there are some mother-in-law's out there who are just like Marie was - overbearing, interfering, manipulative, and no woman is ever good enough for her baby boy no matter what she does. Some will go as far (and in some cases further) as Marie did when changing the recipe just to make themselves look better than the woman their son married. Now don't get me wrong here, Marie didn't set out to ruin their marriage because I believe she truly loved Debra as a daughter-in-law. But she still wanted to keep her position as #1 in the family and often went to great lengths to do that.

They returned it (without even opening it) because they said that they already had a toaster but didn't have a coffee machine. And when it came to Debra having to deal with Marie every day, I still maintain that she has no one to blame but herself. It was all explained in The Sauce Zone that Ray didn't want to move close enough to his parents that meant they would be there all the time, but not that far away that they would have to stay overnight. But Debra insisted because of various things like being able to use them for help if needed (e.g. ready made baby sitters). And don't even get me started about locking front and back doors so that they couldn't just walk in all the time. And in the end, Debra still wouldn't take the blame. She blamed Ray for letting her have her way.

Debra really didn't take rejection very well which indicates that more often than not she got what she wanted. When she suggested changing the Christmas schedule to Marie, I believe she did so without asking Ray about it first and just expected him to go along with her despite what they had previously agreed to with alternate years. And when neither Ray nor Marie wanted to change it, that's when she got petty and decided to invade Marie's picture gift and demand that her parents be included, which led to Robert whining that Amy wasn't in the picture and somehow everything became Ray's fault when in fact I believe the fault lay squarely on Debra's shoulders. SHE didn't get what SHE wanted so she deliberately set out to ruin Ray's Christmas gift to his mother. Ray was put in a no win situation. Either his wife would be pissed at him, or his mother would be and it ended up being both through no fault of his own. Damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

This was shown on a couple of occasions at least. There was also the time when Debra decided that she wanted to do Thanksgiving at her house instead of Marie's. Now while I don't actually disagree with her wanting that, she always wanted to change things for her reasons and more often than not usually expected Ray to be in complete agreement, and if he didn't then she had a touch of Robertitis and get petty over it.

The Christmas picture was actually a gift from Ray to Marie. It was for Marie's family - i.e Marie, Frank, Robert, Ray, Debra and the kids, not Ray's in-laws because they weren't her family. Debra wasn't standing up to Marie, she did it to get back at Ray over the fact that he didn't want to drive to Connecticut to see her parents on Christmas Eve after Marie objected and Ray agreed.

Ray never wanted to buy a house so close to his parents, let alone right across the street. He protested and even suggested California as an alternate since it was beyond local driving distance. Yet despite his continued annoyance at things, many times throughout the series he was shown to love living across the street from his parents, mostly because he got the continued mothering from Marie that he not so secretly craved. Debra was the one who wanted to live there, though by halfway through the first season she had realised the error of her ways, but somehow it was never her fault. The strange thing is that other than "The Letter" or when she and Marie didn't talk for a few episodes, she never did squat about it. A lot of times she was shown as the Alfa female of their home, she was the boss, yet she rarely had the balls to stand up to Marie and her constant interfering or remarks about her cooking, house keeping or kid raising skills.....or even her duty as a wife. More often than not it was somehow turned around on Ray like it was his fault that she had to put up with them always being over and it was his job (not hers) to do something about it. Often after a disagreement (usually with Marie storming out of their house), Debra would turn to Ray and abuse him (verbally and sometimes physically) because he didn't take her side or that he didn't stand up to his parents.

I honestly don't have a clue as to how much sports writers get paid, be they just columnists in a local paper or syndicated. But I find it hard to believe that in New York, Long Island no less, that they are able to own their own home, have 2 cars, raise 3 kids and pay all the bills associated with those things, and be able to do it all very comfortably on just Ray's salary while Debra is a no money earning stay at home mom. While at the same time Robert and Amy seem to struggle while living rent free with Frank and Marie, yet Robert it a long serving NY cop (Captain was he, or Lieutenant?) and Amy works, plus they have no kids. Sense is not made. As some have said, the financial situation often depended on the story of the episode. One time Robert needed a loan from his brother just to pay his bills (which turned into a bit of a lie when he decided to go to Vegas), yet later when the only thing in his situation that had changed was that he had a girlfriend (Amy....which itself would bring increased financial cost to his lifestyle, especially the amount of times they drove to her parents house in PA) he was able to put $1000 into his friends go-kart business without a second thought to "can I afford this??". BTW, just a curiosity question. Whatever happened to Shamsky? He was central to a few episodes with Robert, but then suddenly disappeared and the last I remember him even being mentioned was when Robert and Ray went to the Baseball HoF to see the 1969 Mets and Robert took the dog collar to see if he could get Art Shamsky to sign it, but if course it was thwarted by Ray trying to act like a bigwig reporter and getting shut down by the players for his not so great articles about unqualified ex-players becoming TV or radio commentators simply because of who they were (Ha! Lets face it, all over the world, even where I am from in Australia, there are many ex-sports people who get gigs as tv and radio commentators despite the fact that they can barely string a coherent sentence together. And some keep their jobs for years).

Well, he was good enough to get on television at one point.....though as usual his family (including Debra) picked his performance apart so much that it stuffed him up even worse the second time around.

Robert and Amy should have been much better off financially than Ray and Debra. No kids, mostly living rent free with Frank and Marie and both worked, yet somehow Ray and Debra raising 3 kids, paying a mortgage and other associated household bills had more money just on Ray's pay.

Yeah but the allowance Frank gave her would have been for things like the food shopping, it wouldn't have been just for her personal use. So how she put away (even when teaching piano at home on the side) enough to have $46,000 saved up and stashed away is a mystery. And its not like Frank would have been earning top dollar during that time as a bookkeeper or any of the other jobs he had. Plus paying a mortgage, the bills and raising 2 boys...... I'd have believed it if she had something like $10,000 save up, but 46 grand is way too much of a stretch.

And then in the episode where Debra is helping out at Frank's lodge....he gets all bent out of shape because his old age lodge buddies were ogling her and making comments about her "caboose" behind her back. He even said the reason he "broke the code" was because she was like a daughter to him. A daughter he didn't mind openly perving or commenting on during the PTA episode..... At least Ray got disgusted and tried to flee whenever Marie tried to jump in bed with him whatever the circumstance lol

Given half a chance by Marie (and it happened on occasion).....Robert was a bigger mamma's boy than Ray was at times. Judy definitely had a bigger pair (in more ways than one, but we won't say that. Oops just did lol).

Considering how many times Frank mentioned Robert living there without paying rent, I think its safe to say he wasn't. And Marie often cooked enough for both her own home AND Ray's because of her low opinion of Debra's cooking (which went from ok to bad to horrible over the course of the show). As for Frank and Marie's income, I can only assume that Frank got a pension of some sort. Maybe from his old work (even though he was fired rather than he retired) or a veterans pension since he often talked about being in Korea. But like you, it puzzles me how they can live as comfortably as they do. And its the same with Ray and Debra.....single income family, stay at home mom raising 3 kids, one teen and twin pre-teens by the end. Yet on Ray's pay as a sportswriter they can own their own home, have two cars, raise the kids and still live quite comfortably with money to spare. Most families in that situation barely scrape by with both the husband and wife working, let alone a one income family. The only times I ever heard Ray or Debra complain about money was when Ray lost the $2300 to his dad in a poker game and Debra mentioned that they still had to pay for the kids to go to college one day (3rd ever episode), and the episode where Ray gives his friends $1000 to buy into their go-kart business and Debra (not surprisingly after saying no) went off at him for it because he had already given them a cheque. But when they gave Robert money because he was supposed to be too broke to pay his bills or buy groceries.....somehow that was not a problem as they had the money to spare. And just on the house.....Robert and Amy bought it from Frank and Marie for $26,000 which is what they originally paid for the house. Yet somehow when they get kicked out of the retirement home, even though Robert gets mad and says he bought the house, for the rest of the series (it was the last season), it was like Frank and Marie owned it again. Did they buy it back or in their usual fashion did they just move back in and take over? If that was the case why wouldn't Robert and Amy be extremely pissed off at being out 26 grand?

I live in Australia and here we have just had ELR go right back to the very start....and I have a question. Frank was a bookkeeper when he worked and from what I can tell Marie's main money earning job was home made piano lessons which she hadn't done in years. In (I think) the 3rd ever episode Ray lost $2300 to his dad playing poker with him and his lodge buddies one night at Nemo's. Now this isn't about the sitcom cliche of the husband losing money and the wife trying to force him to go and ask for the money back (shock horror that happened). This is about when Marie tried to give Debra the money behind Ray's back. Marie said that she had some $46,000 saved up that Frank knew nothing about. After raising 2 boys, having a husband who's main thing when home seemed to be eating plus paying off a house and of course the bills and other associated costs that families have, how the hell did Marie have that sort of money saved up, even after 40+ years of marriage. Oh, and just a minor point, after watching the first episode a couple of days ago I noticed something. Like a lot of sitcom homes, Frank and Marie's house changed. Originally the back door where everyone entered into the kitchen was actually on the right side of the screen and the entry to the living room was where the back door ended up being. From the second episode the kitchen did a complete 180.

I think they set a sitcom record for how many times the wife called her on-screen husband an idiot (though Carrie in King of Queens would have given her a good run for her money). Just about every episode.....sometimes to his face, often behind his back. But then, when you think about it that was a premise of both ELR and KoQ. The (supposedly) more intelligent wife trying to hold things together while dealing with a doofus of a husband. I also think you hit the nail on the head with the last line. The only time Ray seemed to take any real interest in his family (i.e. Debra and the kids) was if he was promised to get sex afterward (or he just thought he would get it).....and even then Debra often reneged on a promise of sex.

Debra seemed to love showing Ray that she was his "intellectually superior". Remember the IQ test Robert had them do? She was fine when told she had a higher score, but couldn't take it when Robert told them that he'd made a mistake and Ray had scored higher (not that Ray was a saint when he thought he scored higher lol)

Agreed lol Robert and/or Amy would have been good as callers to the Tom Leykis show.....Robert because of his underlying love for his sister-in-law and Leykis would have gone to town on Amy being over 30 and marrying the first guy she slept with hehehe

IIRC there was even one episode where Ray, Debra and Robert were in Ray and Deb's kitchen. They were talking about relationships (mostly his failed ones) and Robert said that Debra was perfect and quickly had to backtrack to say he meant that she was perfect for Ray when they questioned him on it. Obviously Robert having a thing for Debra was an in-joke throughout the series as it came up often enough for the audience to know (but of course, those on the show were supposed to be oblivious).....but damn it was creepy. With regard to Robert and Amy.....while I do think that Amy's character really did love Robert, I got the feeling that she was one of those desperate 35+ year old women who had never been married, no kids and rarely ever had a romantic relationship who more just wanted to be married than anything else. I mean, she married the first (and only) guy she slept with. But while Robert does love Amy, you get the distinct impression he would have dropped her like a bad habit if Debra had shown any sort of romantic or sexual interest in him.

Yet in the episode with the flashback to when Kitty found out she was pregnant with Laurie, Red is shown to be as bald as he was 20 years later. Personally, I hated Donna. I know Eric wasn't the best boyfriend and the implication was that Donna could do better (Red even told Eric that a few times, though he did also admit that Kitty was too good for him), but even though Eric basically worshiped the ground she walked on, she often treated him like shit for the most part. Hyde even said it in Vanstock, telling Donna that Eric worshiped her and she wasn't even sleeping with him (at the time). And really that didn't change even after they had sex at her parent's wedding. Whenever Eric did lie to her over something (e.g. Mr Bonkers), he did so because he cared for her and wanted to spare her feelings. Yet in the episode when they broke up, although she was nothing more than a Girl Friday at the radio station, she acted like Eric was a jerk when he didn't like that she ditched him to hang out with Ted Nugent because to her, hanging out with Nugent would further her career (though TBH her best shot at a radio career was as Hyde told Eric....banging rock stars on a tour bus). She couldn't see that she had done anything wrong. No, nothing at all wrong with ditching your long term boyfriend at a concert to hang out with a rock star who probably wouldn't even remember her name the next morning anyway. If it had been the other way around and Eric had ditched her to hang out with someone like say.....Deborah Harry (Blondie), he would have been the biggest a-hole alive for ditching her. She's lucky Eric didn't dump her sorry ass, though it did cause her to break up with him. And then how she acted afterward, basically getting everyone to hang out at her house instead of the basement because she had cable simply to get one over him was nothing more than petty when she had caused the break up in the first place. And don't get me started on blonde Donna.......

Major Hochstetter was probably my favorite character. KLINK.....WHO IS THIS MAN??? or WHAT IS THIS MAN DOING HERE????? whenever Hogan was around. I also loved when Carter played Hitler. Damn Larry Hovis played that well.

I don't know about anyone else.....but while I think Patricia Heaton is a wonderful actress, that coughing/choking was the worst piece of put on acting I have seen in such a successful show. I mean.....it wasn't even close to believable. The coughs were so forced it wasn't funny. I put on better fake coughs in my teens when trying to get out of school. As for the rest.....Robert saying he got Debra if Ray was dead was just another in the LONG line of examples hinting that Robert had a major thing for his sister-in-law and was always jealous that Ray managed to land her while his own love life generally sucked. The sad part was that they even had Robert act like this AFTER he and Amy got married and even managed to show it in front of Amy a few times.

The reality is that sitcoms that run for a number of years like ELR did usually do lack consistency. Facts from early seasons often get changed (usually happens when they change writers) or even completely forgotten about.

That's a good point. Momma's boy Ray almost always took Marie's side so I can understand how Debra was with that. However, I do disagree that Debra didn't know what Frank and particularly Marie were like. She had so many 'in-your-face' clues that were obviously ignored that it wasn't even funny. The flashback to where Ray is going to propose to Debra, the episode where she finds out that she is pregnant with Ally, and this was all before they bought the house across the street. If Debra couldn't see just from those two instances what Marie was like from her behavior at those times then they should have made her character like Jake from Becker because she really was blind. But I will agree that Marie was the MiL from hell who went to great lengths, even sabotage, to get what she wanted and to keep things the way they were....with her being the better mother, the better wife, the better housekeeper, the better cook.

And the running joke was that many times throughout the series Ray reminds Debra that he had wanted to move as far from his parents as possible (California was mentioned, somewhere out of even short driving distance), but it was Debra who insisted that they buy the house across the street from his parents. The implication being that when it comes to Marie, in a lot of ways she has no one to blame but herself because she was the one who chose to live so close to them. Ray warned her about moving there but (and sorry to the women here but of the women I know personally, this is pretty typical).....she didn't listen and knew better. Yet Marie interfering in her life like she did was somehow always Ray's fault.

With regards to the Super Bowl episode.....I have to admit that I do have a problem with Debra's side of it. OK sure, Ray should have asked her before he asked Gianni or even his father or brother, but I can totally get why he didn't. Regardless that its the SB, Debra has never shown any interest in sports or her husbands work other than that one episode where they went golfing together. She even admits on multiple occasions throughout the shows run that she rarely, if ever, even read his newspaper column (about the only interest she had in it was that he made a good enough living that they could own their own home and she didn't have to go to work to support a family that included 3 kids - not that she was even happy with that at times). When Ray finally realises that he could have brought his wife as the other members of the press did, she throws a hissy fit after getting there when she finds out it wouldn't be the 2nd honeymoon she thought it was going to be. Now this is where I start having a problem with her attitude. Ray was clearly sent there by NY Newsday to cover the game. In other words it was a work trip, not just a pleasure trip. Part of that for an event like the SB would be scheduled golf time where members of the press and celebrities (maybe even some of the players) would mingle in a more relaxed atmosphere than something like a press conference. Yet shock horror Debra has a problem with it because she was 'expected' to do things with the other wives during the day and the only time she would get to see Ray would be when she was expected to be his 'whore at night'. Now this is the problem with the whole thing. If she went down there expecting a 2nd honeymoon wouldn't you think that they would be having sex at night in their hotel room? What, even on a 2nd honeymoon was she going to withhold sex from him like she almost always did at home? Yes, I know full well that Ray is the poster child for how a husband should NOT be. But this was a work trip for him and Debra basically ruined it with her attitude because it wasn't what she wanted it to be. And she wasn't even sorry for it. In fact, after Ray completely overreacted and tore up the game tickets her only concern was that she would be known as the wife who made him eat his SB tickets. Ray is a selfish husband and I think we can all agree on that. But the fact is that Debra is every bit as selfish even though she likes to think of herself as completely the opposite.