PRgal
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I don't really get the fun-shaped foods lady. The only difference between her product and cutting food into shapes using cookie cutters is that you can do many at the same time. I'm surprised no one mentioned cookie cutters during the pitch! And yes, she was annoying.
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Question for people here: Do you think socio-economic class contributes to how FOBBY one is perceived to be? Or do you think it's more about where your parents/grandparents are from (I'm assuming most of us are no more than second generation)? Or maybe a bit of both? My parents, especially my dad, grew up hovering on the poverty line, maybe a bit above, but through education, became very successful. I grew up in a very safe neighbourhood and was eventually sent to private school. All of my parents' friends who stayed in Hong Kong were also very successful and their children went to the best schools there (or boarding school in the UK, US or Canada) and a foreign post-secondary education (again, UK, US, Canada). Those who came here had more of a "standard" Canadian middle class life (mostly public schools in good neighbourhoods, though some, like me, went to "old line" type private schools. Kids mostly attended Canadian universities (mostly "brand name" schools like Queen's or McGill)), but were still extremely successful. I can't say that any of my peers "struggled" nor did anyone live in almost squalor conditions in Chinatown. We were all suburbanites. I read some Asian Canadian/Asian American lit in school, but could never really identify with the characters. The whole Chinatown/struggle thing is just not something I really "got" and was completely foreign to me. However, sometimes, I feel that I'm "expected" to understand. I guess that's why I feel that I'm more "connected" with Black-ish than this one (I know, it's not fair, since there have only been two episodes).
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Yesterday, it was dinner with the parentals. Tonight = lazy Sunday (aka Downton Day) and we bought a pre-roasted chicken from the grocery store (whole). Will eat half and then freeze the rest for alter in the week (I might make chicken fried quinoa or sorghum (i.e. chicken fried rice, replaced with quinoa or sorghum).
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The issue is that because the HKers (or rather, the Mainlanders in recent years) have jacked up the property prices so high that the younger generation can't afford to buy anymore. And there is no elsewhere to buy. Here are some articles that sort of explain what a tough situation Vancouver is in.
My dad is a lawyer so he didn't really mind when I dropped AP Chemistry and Physics for AP Lit and World Lit in Grade 12. His goal was to get me to study law in the long run. I was top of the class in math in elementary school, when there were fewer Chinese (Catholic school - full of Irish and Filippinos) but when I went to a private non-denominational high school, where there were more Chinese (mostly CBCs in my grade, oddly, I was one of two full-on Hongers), it became clear pretty quickly that I was not predisposed to the sciences.
My cousins from Toronto who visit twice every year would disagree with your father, but I must say the last time I was in Toronto, I had just finished a trip down the eastern seaboard of the US, and the "typhoon shelter" crab I had at this restaurant in Markham tasted absolutely divine.
I don't really eat crab, so I can't tell you anything. Is it the nouveau stuff that's better in Van? What are the young chefs doing? We're getting a lot of Jook Sing Cuisine here (my parents are more into the "traditional" foods found in the 905 (i.e. Markham). I never go unless I'm with them, since management knows that I can't read Chinese) - think sticky rice in the form of quinoa and stuff like that.
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The lunch thing is definitely not isolated to Asian kids. The thing is, back then, especially in suburban areas with little ethnic presence, people just didn't have any exposure to authentic "foreign" food. You probably had Olive Garden, Taco Bell and a couple of Americanized Chinese restaurants. Everything else was weird and gross. Nowadays, ethnic food is much more accepted and even considered rather hip. Where I live now, in the suburbs of Denver, Colorado, there are several Korean restaurants that serve fairly authentic food. Indian food is becoming increasingly popular. There are pho restaurants on every corner. I go to Hmart (a huge Korean grocery store) and there are just as many white people shopping there as Asians. My kids' non asian friends eat sushi. It is a very different time from I grew up.
Around here, fusion/nouveau cuisine is a thing. Most young, children-of-immigrant chefs are doing that (think people like David Chang, but Canadian). I guess they think more "traditional" food is...boring.
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Hello! Like arc, I grew up in Vancouver. My family immigrated from Hong Kong to Canada during the pre-1997 mass exodus. I was five when I moved to Vancouver so I can speak English fluently, never had an accent, but because there were so many fellow HK immigrants in Vancouver at that time that I never really had to assimilate. We always had Chinese markets and grocery stores and authentic Chinese restaurants --- really, outside of Asia, the best Chinese food is found in Vancouver. Sorry, Toronto, but we have you beat there.
That said, I always felt a sense of resentment from the locals that we were effectively changing their landscape, their way of living, pushing up property prices, raising the bar for university entrance grades. No outright racist remarks, but from time to time I didn't feel welcome, and as soon as I finished university I moved back to Hong Kong. I do miss Vancouver and I reminisce fondly about the childhood I had, and proper "white people food". I visit once a year now, usually in the summer --- I sure don't miss the rain!
I understand the school thing, but I never understood property values. Isn't an increase a good thing? You make more money when you sell. And if you can't buy there, buy elsewhere. Also, Hong Kong immigrants are more westernized to begin with, so you're probably MORE assimilated than you think you are. You might not be playing hockey, but adjusting to western life and culture clashes between you and your parents are just not as great (unless you're talking about classes you want to take at school. I've always been a humanities girl, though my parents wanted me in sciences or finance). As for Chinese food - it's only better because you get better quality seafood. I pretty much only eat fish, so for things like chicken, other meats and vegetarian, it's pretty much the same (or arguably better here - according to my dad). #justsayin
ETA: I'm actually MORE conscious of myself in HK than I am here in Toronto. I feel that there, I stand out more as Jook Sing, where as here, I'm quite comfortable. Not much resentment felt, though I thought some of the Chinese girls at school looked down on me as well - a little too Jook Sing for them, as I noted, and they were way, way more brand conscious than me (this was a girls only private school). To them, GAP jeans and Jacob (RIP) sweaters worn on grub day (uniform-free) wasn't "cool" enough (this was the mid-90s, so GAP was still a good thing) and almost as bad as an outfit I bought from some chain store in Hong Kong while I was there for Christmas vacation. Maybe it's because my area was never LARGELY Chinese - always a mix of Chinese, Jewish (probably the bigger group), WASP and some South Asians.
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I think it would help better address any potential readings of anti-black racism that may have been gleaned from the Pilot. It also makes me think about how many noticed and commented on the usage of "chink," but we're also not addressing the other moment where the white kid makes fun of Eddie's lunch as an overtly racist moment.
But the lunch thing is also NOT unique to the child of Asian immigrant experience. Canadian celebrity chef David Rocco (Italian) has spoken about being embarrassed of his school lunches (rabbit sandwiches) and there's also that scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, showing the main character as a child and being uncomfortable about HER Greek lunches.
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I'm sorry. I just have to share. My 90 year old English war bride grandmother just passed and.... her hats are her legacy (along with a lot of stories) and I just got my hat and my hatbox and hats were kind of a big deal. If there's something that resonates with me when I watch Downton, its the women in Downton with their hats because that's how I have seen English women.
And the tweed caps because my dad always had a tweed cap like Robert and Matthew and Tom and my cherished memory of Christmas 1983 was getting a tweed cap despite my being a girl child.
(and FYI my dad, in the 1970s, was the spitting image of Sherlock BBC Benedict Cumberbatch to where I am uncomfortable with watching the show)
I am so sorry for your loss. My grandmother would be the same age if she were still alive (in other words, a contemporary of Sybbie, George and Marigold). I think she gave away or sold a lot of things (pretty much anything that wasn't lost during WWII) when she moved from Hong Kong to Canada in the 1970s and of the things she kept, they were letters, all written in Chinese, which I cannot read. All I have are photos and the stores she told me when I was a little girl.
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So, coming at this from a non-Asian perspective: My understanding of "fresh off the boat" simply means a new immigrant (legal or illegal); with a negative connotation. You seem to be applying it Asian immigrants only, but I never thought it applied to only one ethnic group or nationality. In my experience (flavored by the communities I lived in), I've seen it used to describe mostly Hispanic (Cuban/Puerto Rican/other Caribbean) immigrants.
And yeah, I was... concerned about using it as the title of the show, however I thought "black-ish" was way more controversial. But I'm black, so....
That's interesting, Trini! Outside of East and South Asian communities, I think I've only heard FOB used once or twice - by Eastern Europeans. And it came from people who had a good number of Asian friends. But yes, FOB means immigrant, or, sometimes, people who "act" immigrant.
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I wonder though about his expressed desire to cover domestic violence, though, as in the child abuse he suffered at home. He has mentioned in other interviews that he was beaten, CPS was involved and that his parents still don't believe that they abused him. He also seems to respect his parents even in hindsight.
I have to say that as important an issue child abuse is to bring attention to, I'm wary of how a show like this would handle it in a way that wouldn't completely turn me off to either of the parents. It's one thing to see a strict, demanding but ultimately loving mother who fiercely protects her kids and a father who is a gentler character who wants something better for his family.
In real life, people are complex and can be all of the above yet still abuse their children behind closed doors, bit I wouldn't be able to enjoy the show or the parents' characters if I know that either one of them harmed one of their children.
I'm not surprised about the CPS situation. I know of a few people who have reported issues to schools when they were younger, but when officials came to the house, the parents denined that there were problems. A lot of it has to do with Confusianist attitudes - they can't lose face and I also think they want to look like a perfect, middle class family. Asian parents also often deny that depression is an issue. To them, depression is a "middle class invention." The stigma towards mental illness is a lot steeper than in the Anglo communities.
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OK, let me introduce myself. I'm PRgal, also known as Cynthia in real life. My parents are immigrants from Hong Kong and came to Canada in the 1970s, several years before I was born (I was born in '79, so I hover between being a Gen Xer and a Millennial, depending on who you ask/what stats look at). I can SORT OF relate to Eddie and his family, but as some posters on other threads have said, the (Hong Kong) Canadian immigrant experience is a bit different from that of (Taiwanese) Americans - especially if you live in Toronto or Vancouver. I've never felt that I was "at the bottom" or that I stood out too much because I'm Asian. There were always Asian kids in my class at school - even in the Jewish-majority (we're talking about only having two or three - four MAX - kids in the classroom during Rosh Hashanah) elementary school I went to for kindergarten. The whole budget conscious parents was somewhat relatable, I guess, but my mom was (and still is in her 60s) fashion conscious and my closet was always a mix of budget and pricier items. Some of my party dresses came from higher end childrenswear shops. We also got our groceries from both Chinese markets (which by the 1980s were more supermarket like, despite being stinky to this CBC) and mainstream stores (which by 2003 meant Whole Foods as they opened their first Toronto location). Finally, I mostly brought sandwiches to school as my lunch and we definitely ate western foods - as I noted in another thread, my mother introduced me to grilled cheese (which I STILL love - more than macaroni and cheese). I had my fair share of Pizza Hut, McDonald's, etc, etc... We even made westernized food at home.
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I think it's more likely that the black security guard is actually doing his job and the white ones are just doing positive stereotyping/model minority nonsense with you. Why would a black man be jealous of an Asian woman?
South Asian security guards don't do much either. Black people jealous of Asians' relative success (stereotypically speaking)? They tend to be more aggressive, too. I don't see too many white security guards around here.
ETA: I just want to be honest about my experiences. The comments I made were not meant to sound racist. Just FYI.
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I wanted to know what others thought of Edgar calling Eddie a "chink." There's been some controversy over that scene, with people wary of the one black kid being the jerk who uses a racial slur. I've seen people calling Fresh Off the Boat racist/anti-black for that line.
My take on it is that while I understand people's concerns over the line - especially as anti-black racism isn't exactly new to the Asian-American community, and vice versa - I think it's too soon to tell with this show. Just leaving aside the fact that according to Eddie the incident actually happened, because I don't want to get into the whole memoir/fiction/truthiness debate right now.... I didn't get the impression that the show was putting the focus on the black kid himself, and that the "chink" comment was meant to illustrate how awful black people are. Rather, IMO the point was to show how POC will fight among themselves in an attempt to gain a step on the ladder in the racial hierarchy. It's pretty true to life, and hell, white people know that and will take advantage of it by using us as pawns (e.g. the model minority stereotype) to shut other groups down.
If the black kid stays antagonistic and one-dimensional, that'll be one thing, but I get the feeling that he and Eddie will form an odd couple type friendship later on.
I think I wrote in another thread that the worst comments I've experienced came from black people. Many often assume that the type of racism that East Asians face is the same as their experiences. While no one has ever called me "chink," I've had weird comments like "It's good to see people like you here - we need more foreigners/diversity amongst conservatives." I don't have an accent (while the (black) guy who made the comment did) and I tend not to think about "diversity" all that much. I'm just...there. Many also assume that I grew up in a less privileged neighbourhood. White people tend not to do that - at least not vocally. If the alarm goes off at a store, I usually turn back to see if anyone wants to check my bag. Never happens...unless the security guy is black. Now this is just my personal experience. I wonder if there's any jealousy here.
ETA: I should say that middle class, "liberal" white women (usually "ethnic" - Jewish, Italian, etc...) come next in terms of weird comments. My first name is westernized and it's my legal name. They often ask me WHY my legal name is western and why I'm "ignoring" my culture. WTF??
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I was born and raised to Chinese immigrant parents in Vancouver too! But I've always said the Chinese-Canadian experience in Vancouver is sooo much different than the typical Chinese-American experience, possibly excluding the most Asian parts of the States. I mean, my cousins in America (medium sized cities, too!) were more like the only Asians in their classes, or one of a few. I went to an elementary school that was mostly second-generation Chinese-Canadian kids, and then a high school that was majority-minority, with Chinese tied with East Indian as the two largest pluralities of nationalities.
So anyways, we might not have had much representation on TV back then, but in my real life I often didn't even feel like I was in the minority. And then because of that, I don't think we in Vancouver had that same dynamic that Eddie Huang had, where Asian kids either tried to assimilate into mainstream white culture or reject it in favor of assimilating/appropriating black culture instead.
I kinda think -- not that I've read the book -- that Eddie intentionally named his memoir that way as a sort of reclaiming-the-term move. Just from what else I know about Eddie Huang.
People were mostly first gen and immigrant in Toronto and I've never had the experience of being part of a "majority" culture at school. It doesn't really matter, since since Grade 3 or 4, there have been more than two or three East Asian (mostly Chinese) kids in my class, so I was never the "odd one." I lived in a fairly Jewish neighbourhood, though. In Toronto, I've found that a good number of Chinese kids had Jewish BFFs if their closest friends weren't also Chinese. As for the Canadian Asian experience being "different" - I wonder if people would say the same if they were from a smaller (non-university) town. Also, maybe being from Hong Kong makes a difference? I don't know many Korean Canadians well, but are their parents way FOBBier than HK Canadians? I know that Japanese are generally NOT FOBBY, since most are not even first gen/immigrant gen, but instead, are descendents of people who were placed in internment camps.
As for the name of the show - I, too was surprised. Here in Toronto, a guy wanted to call his restaurant GwaiLo, but at the end, it opened as DaiLo. I guess GwaiLo is different, since it's a slur towards people of a DIFFERENT race.
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Ok, I finally watched the episode & read through the comments. I agree with everyone on the basic ponts, also:
1. So happy Bunting is gone! There was a scary moment where I thought TOM was running after her to ask her to stay!
Favorite line- Tom says she'll be missed by the other teachers & Bunting says "I'm afraid they thought I was a bit of a nuisance". Even the other teachers hated Bunting!
If the OTHER teachers are Miss Bunting haters, imagine the kids...
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What's interesting is this: Eddie wanted to go hip hop, while I wanted to be presented as a debutante (not really sure how I was influenced because debutante balls, save for 18th birthday parties girls of Philippine descent have, are very rare in Toronto, even among "old money" WASPs)!
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To be fair, some of the food was stinky even to us. Once, my parents made gopchang, intestines very similar to chitterlings and I had to leave the house during prep because they smelled so bad. And the days my mom made kimchi stew the house smelled like it for days.
It is and more so then than now. I mean, in retrospect I suppose complaining about racist bullies to my beergutted, good 'ol boy PE teacher who asked me in the first grade if my parents were commies and if we were from North or South Korea was an exercise in futility.
The thing is, the FOB parents probably can't smell it - they're "nose blind" to these foods while we aren't. I'm sure they find cheese gross, just as I wasn't able to walk into a Chinese grocery store when I was small because it was so stinky. Glad that the ones now don't smell (probably because there's better ventilation) and they're much bigger - a "real" supermarket that just happens to have a lot of Asian foods.
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I never experienced "CLC" (or the Korean version of it, "Hagwon"), but it is still pretty prevalent in the US. In South Korea, it is pretty mandatory (and costly since these are done for-profit). After having moved to a more metropolitan area in my adulthood, they are apparently pretty prevalent among immigrants in the US too. I guess it's good if you have half-decent teachers/tutors, but I think most of them are unnecessary.
I actually like how that turned out. The parents really do care about their kids and want them to be prepared for their adulthood. Being academically challenged is much better than getting straight As and not being prepared for your later years.
The neighbor kid was sad, and I think Eddie got how great his parents are. I guess his dad works in sports or something. (Wasn't his last line about watching a sports game and trying to spot his dad?)
But not every kid wants or needs to be too academic. And it's usually STEM subjects that the parents are obsessed with. What if someone likes literature? Why can't a kid be well-rounded? What's wrong with a bit of tennis? I think some Asian parents are way too focused on (certain) academic subjects.
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This sounds quite similar to my own experience; my parents were not fobby at all, but they were never that interested in fitting into Canadian culture, and so we ended up hanging around other Chinese people throughout the 90s and 2000s in Vancouver. My mom was the tiger mom of tiger moms and once got so angry at me for getting a B that I hid inside the garage and cried. She also invented homework for me to do during the summer - math, English, and Chinese. I took piano lessons (hated them) and math tutoring (hated it) and Chinese school on Saturdays.
I've always found the Canadian immigrant experience to be somewhat different than the American immigrant experience. And there were definitely lots of Nouveau-Riche Fobs in Vancouver in the 90s. Not my parents though; we drove a Volkswagen and they put all the money into private education for me and my brother because they were convinced we wouldn't be ale to learn English properly at the public schools which were filled with Honger children.
I thought the (nouveau riche) Honger kids all went to (old line) private schools. There certainly were many at mine and when I went to university, a (white) girl from Vancouver in one of my classes said that her school had a lot too.
I agree with you that the Canadian experience is (probably) different. In my experience- based on friends and acquaintances, anyway - we're A LOT less FOBBY up here so there are fewer clashes between the kids and parentals.
ETA: My parents' (non-work) friends were mostly other Hong Kong Canadians, but I had friends from all over (okay, mostly Chinese or Jewish). Both my parents worked outside of the Chinese community (dad was (and still is) in finance and my mom worked in IT until the early 90s when she decided to stay home). Again, I'm not sure if this made a difference. The people I knew whose parents worked (mostly) within the Chinese community (i.e. accountants, dentists, doctors, real estate agents, etc...) had FOBBier parents, but not FOBBY in the sense I read/hear about in the US.
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Another question: What's everyone's definition of FOB? To me, FOB falls into two categories:
Trashy FOB: Bad sense of style (as in they wear cheap and ugly clothing), doesn't speak English (well), really unaware of Canadian/American culture.
Nouveau Riche FOB: I see A LOT more of these around here (I bet Vancouver has more). I guess you can say that their sense of style is bad as well - all they care about are brand names. They're the ones with the Louis Vuitton bags, CL shoes, weekly/daily blow outs, etc... for the women (about seven years ago, I was shopping at a higher end department store and a woman loudly proclaimed (in Cantonese) that Tory Burch flats were "not worth the purchase" because the name wasn't "big enough." Keep in mind that this is Toronto and I wasn't the only person in the store who understood her). Both men and women seem to have an obsession with Mercedes (or as Cantonese speakers call it, Ben-see) or BMWs (Bo-Mah in Canto) and live in McMansions. Think Real Housewives of_____ and their spouses! The younger generation is just as brand obsessed as the boomers and older Xers, but they're more likely to experiment (shop up-and-coming brands, for example). And more likely to live in condos in the city rather than suburban McMansions. Though some of the older crowd would move into a condo after the kids have left.
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For those of you who're Asian with immigrant parents: Were they really as FOBBY as the Huangs/FOBBier? Based on what I've been reading from some of you guys, my FOB parents really aren't that FOBby at all! I may have had a somewhat Tigerish grandmother and mom who sent me to Kumon and believed that an old line, girls-only prep school was better than performing arts school for university readiness (not to say that I did NOT like my girls' school experience, despite the very catty classmates (ESPECIALLY from the Hong Kong girls)) but I had a "Canadian" childhood as well. I went to Brownies (and yes, my mother helped me sell cookies), had a bike, skated, etc... Besides Kumon even through summer, I also went to day camp - enrichment camps (computers, science, journalism, though I had my way a few times and did drama and art) - but still day camp (and one overnight (music) camp in high school after lots and lots of begging. They DID NOT want me in the wilderness. Instead, they wanted me to go to sleepaway "camp" at a university where I'd be in a dorm).
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I don't know why the made the black kid the racist one. It's certainly unrealistic that he would have come out of it unscathed. He should have been right out there with Eddie (getting berated by his parents for being so stupid).
I'm not surprised that they made the black kid the racist one. I've received more ignorant comments from blacks/other non-whites regarding East Asians than from white people! Still, he should have been sent to the principal's office as well.
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The kid Eddie was having a conversation with while waiting for report cards was a bit sadd. We know that Eddie was jealous of the white kids because he was stuck being after school tutored by his mom, but the kid seeing Louis playing basketball with his sons kind of broke my heart. Glad that the kid was asked if he wanted to join in. If Eddie is the "Kevin Arnold" of the series, I wonder if this kid is going to be...Paul...
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We mostly ate Korean food, rice everyday with various side dishes. Once in a blue moon as a "treat" we'd get hamburgers or chicken but for the most part when I was very young my mom cooked every single meal of Korean food. Later on she started making Koreanized versions of "American" food, such as spicy spaghetti or BBQ chicken with Korean spices in the sauce. The ironic thing, is after much whining, from me she finally relented and let me buy hot lunch in the cafeteria and I ended up hating it! The boil mush spinach, congealed lasagna that smelled like (to me) barf. I ended up throwing my food away untouched everyday until the teacher finally noticed and called my mom. Then it was back to packed lunches. Lol.
And yep, my mom was fanatical about schoolwork. B? You think you're going to get into a good college with a B in second grade math? Ha!
Koreanized versions of American food sounds like my grandmother's cooking. Lots of roast chicken marinaded in soy sauce with a bit of ginger. Same with pork chops. Lots of rice, too. But that was at dinner. The only non-Chinese dish my grandmother did well was her homemade bolognese sauce...she even ground meat at home! I can't replicate that because I always end up adding bottled tomato purée (along with fresh tomatoes). We ate it with rice. At least I didn't have to live through soya sauce spaghetti. YUCK.
We went to our fair share of McDonald's, Harvey's (a Canadian burger chain that does customized burgers (i.e. you can choose your own toppings), Pizza Hut, etc..., though.
I have a feeling that my family and our circle was just more integrated than others. Maybe it's just a Toronto thing? I have to admit that I relate to the Johnsons on Blackish more than the Huangs. But there have only been two episodes of FOB.
Question: Do we know whether the grandmother is Jessica's mom or Louis'? I am assuming Louis, since it's more typical for the mother to stay with the son than the mother to stay with the daughter.
S01.E01: Pilot
in Fresh Off The Boat [V]
Might not be their legal/official names but names they adapted when they arrived. Surprised that Eddie didn't have an official western name, though. Maybe it's a Taiwanese thing. Legal western names are almost universal for Hong Kong Canadians born this side of the Pacific. I'd say that it's fairly common in the old country, as well. I can count on ONE HAND the number of people I know under 45 with only a Chinese name (two).