Alayne Stone

Re: the moon tea thing: Despite it clearly being readily available, I still always saw it as being the sort of thing with a stigma still attached to it. So yes, high born women would have access to it if necessary -- but you would have to be trusting that your master would not give you away. They still make quite a big deal about women being "maidens" before they are wed. Those that have been despoiled viewed as carrying a taint and less likely to land a good match and all that. I think the dragon will have three literal riders, just like in Aegon the Conqueror's time, and I'm convinced they will at least have some sort of dragon blood in them as well thanks to The Princess and the Queen, but I would not be opposed to it being one person with three aspects either. Also, I don't think it's that much of a stretch that Tyrion could be Aerys son. Thematically it would kind of kill Tyrion's development though. ETA: Ohhhh I have to say I really like the idea of Jaime and Tyrion ironically killing the other's father without realizing it.

Yeah, the Rebellion timeline is confusing to me as well. TWOIAF makes the timeline involving Lyanna's kidnapping a little confusing as well because (small spoiler for TWOIAF) I suspect much of it will be revealed in the next book. That very sarcastic and pragmatic "Pray harder" line is one of two lines that just made me completely rage over (season 5 spoiler) I like Asha a lot as well. She is by and far the most tolerable Iron Born character from the series. I'd say I was bummed she was shafted from the show, but seeing as how some of the characters turned out in the end I'd say we were the better off for it.

Not for shimpy: I know GRRM likes to subvert tropes, but I don't think he subverts them nearly as much as people tend to say. I don't see Bran as coming out evil in all of this, but I suppose that kind of all just depends on whether or not the children and Bloodraven are in actuality agents of the Others which is an interesting Hersey theory that I enjoy reading about even though I don't necessarily buy into it. When you finish the series you'll have to check out the theory that ASOIAF is actually a retelling of the Ragnarok Norse mythology tale. It proposes that all the supposed heroes of the story (Dany for sure and also Tyrion, Jon and Bran if I am not mistaken) are actually the ultimate villains of the tale.

Not to defend what is easily the worst section of the entire series for me to read, but you do have to consider something regarding that heinous Ramsay scene: If you have never seen the show, this would have been the absolute first time the reader witnesses via a first person POV Ramsay in all his awfulness. We came upon Theon utterly devastated, his fingers having already been chewed, his spirit destroyed, his identity changed. But we never actually witnessed any of the horror for ourselves. It was all an after thought. And in a way, the reader sees for the first time ... again in real time ... just how subdued Theon/Reek has become. Everything up to that moment in the chapter was absolutely brilliant. A lot of people like to argue that these last Reek chapters are some of George's best writing and I tend to agree. Lady Dustin is another favorite minor character that I was disappointed to see did not make the show. Season 5 spoilers relating to Sansa: And oh man, how we all RAGED with what they did to Ellaria. Ellaria is actually the mouthpiece for what the author is trying to say about revenge and vengeance, it being a never ending cycle that just keeps piling on the death. But of course the creators completely just missed the point of that, evidenced by the fact that "VENGEANCE" is probably the only "theme" they actually try to employ in the series. I'm very excited for everything that has been set up by Doran and I can't wait to see what the sand snakes have planned for King's Landing. Can you imagine Lady Nym on the small council? A bastard? Cersei is going to have a fit. One last note on that theon chapter: the actual wedding itself is so beautiful and sad. Whenever I read it I always pick up new things, from the way the wind seems to speak to Theon ... the way the weirwood seems to be watching him. It's almost like the old gods are watching or something. Hmmm.

The North Remembers chapter is one of my favorite chapters from the entire series. And now you are beginning to realize why Ramsay of all people uttering that line was so insulting. And now you're starting to get an idea for why we were all insistent on you reading The Red Wedding and just driving home the fact that "no, really, the fact that so many Northerners were murdered besides just the Starks is important." I'm really glad you ended up liking this chapter and I'm glad it came as an utter surprise to you. I love the Manderlys. They are one of my favorite minor houses.

I think you're just beginning to get a more full picture of the political situation in Meereen which was considerably watered down for the show, probably due to time constraints. But the children hostages are not at all unlike a situation she might face in Westeros where the children of conquered enemies are sent as "wards" to make sure their parents don't rebel again. And you've just met the Graces. I think ... depending on the color of their veils, it represents different faucets of society they represent. They each have their own functions similar to how the Septas supposedly have different functions according to the colors they wear as well (which still hasn't been explored very much in ASOIAF). No other thoughts on Hizdhar? I honestly can't remember how much you are exposed to at this point, but his book counterpart is quite different from his show counterpart. I actually really liked his show counterpart too, by the way. And yes, you've just met (well ... re met I suppose) Penny, another cut character from the show. Forgive me if this is a really stupid question, but can someone refresh my memory on all this monkey talk I keep seeing? lol

I have never really prescribed to the Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne theory either, but it's one of the more popular ones. Stretch marks, a hint at noble birth and a chance mention of Arthur Dayne by someone who would have been around him all the time are not enough evidence for me. I feel like Tyrion would have noticed the eye color too. Yes, he can be pretty misogynistic but he's also very astute. I feel like in all the time he spent in their company he would have eventually noticed. But ... who knows? It's never revealed one way or another so I suppose she could be. But I personally prefer the haunting memory she impressed on certain people. You got to the part where Stannis captures Asha? Ohhhhhhh. Yessssss.

It certainly took a lot of steam out of that scene for me, but they still went through with Tyrion killing her. Not saying it was a good scene by any stretch of the imagination but I think I was far more infuriated by the omission of Tysha than I was by the manner in which Shae was killed. I was just happy to see her go at that point.

I see the main players in this story as being varying shades of grey that slide along both the darker and lighter scales according to where they are at in their storylines. Jaime is sliding more towards the "white" scale but the good he has done does not wash out the bad. Tyrion is sliding the other way but I would not consider him an outright villain. I think right now we are seeing the absolute worst of him. I had never fully prescribed to the whole "they are white washing Tyrion" criticism for the show until this scene. At this point show Tyrion is fast heading in the same direction as show Jaime and show Cersei, similar to their book counterparts in name only. Which is a shame because if Breaking Bad taught us anything it's that watching the so called hero turn bad is compelling television. Dinklage could have easily pulled it all off and maybe even justified that Emmy win he got for this season. Season 5 spoilers:

Yes, to go from feeling an immense amount of pride one moment ... and then to be like "what?! nooooooo!" the next. :(

I think the Mountain actually says something along the lines of "First I killed her welp, then I raped her with his blood still on my hands, then I bashed her skull in like this" ... but he could have just been saying that upon being provoked. Who knows. ETA: I see others ninja'd me already on the above. ;) I'm of the "Griff is a Blackfyre" persuasion myself, but I don't think he thinks himself as anything other than legitimate. I also would not rule out him being important to the narrative, just because the show has cut him. Time and time again Martin has said there are ripple effects of the show omitting certain things that are going to have a butterfly effect. I don't consider Lady Stoneheart any less important either and there has so far been no sign of her in the show. Shimpy, you are not the only one who believes Varys isn't all that he seems. That there is something more to him. There's quite a bit of speculation as to who he might actually be as well. I don't think you need any more information to potentially figure it out and it's mostly just speculation at this point, but I'll put a spoiler tag up just in case. Also, I love Wylla Manderly. And I love her speech. Especially in a hall full of so many people paying lip service to the Freys, it was nice to have someone remind us of just how loyal to the Starks the Northern houses were before it all went to hell.

You know, I don't think it has been mentioned in the books where Osha took Rickon. Not yet, anyway. And yeah, I think many girls end up liking really stupid guys when they are younger. GRRM is very self-conscious of this fact. I like Davos too, Shimpy. :)

They've eliminated so many of the colorful and interesting characters from Dany's storyline. I think the racial swapping only gets worse from here.

For me, it was just the fact that the only thing kept from the Winterfell arc is That's it. That's the only thing that stayed the same. And of course where Stannis is concerned:

Shimpy, you have everything you need to know regarding who the Griffs are. You made two very astute comments in your last post about them, but I won't point out what they are until a little later. I don't think I quite knew who they all were either at this point though, like most people here. Just that they weren't who they said they were. When you finish Dance I'll be very curious to see if you're still willing to give the two creators the benefit of the doubt. As much as they blundered Dorne in the show, I still think what they did with the Winterfell arc and to some extents what they did to Jon/Stannis's arc is just by far the worst thing they have done to date. I used to give the show the benefit of the doubt right up to the season 4 finale, but season 5 just killed it for me. And I agree they should just stop doing the inside the episodes. No good has come from it. Maybe replace them with some of the cinema crew. I always love hearing how they are able to construct the amazing CGI/big battle scenes. Use the actors as well. I wouldn't mind hearing about their process when they film their scenes. But D&D should just stop themselves.

Theon was pretty reprehensible and the stuff that happens makes you really question if it was still justified. I'm very much of the persuasion that Reek in Winterfell is some of George's best writing. The chapters before that, especially that first one, was really hard for me to get through because we are essentially playing catch up with him. But now you see that all the torture stuff with Theon happened completely off screen. That's probably why I don't see it as being simply done for shock value. It's certainly shocking, but it's not as if there is no purpose to it. As for Quaithe, I don't know ... I've never really viewed her as being a "bad" person. We simply don't know enough about her to decide one way or another. I can see your point about her warnings isolating Dany but ... well, they will all begin to make a little more sense as you continue to read Dance. Some of it will reveal itself, some of it remains a subject for speculation. It's one of those things you should keep in mind when you finish reading all the published material and we start discussing everything openly. :) And YES. Bloodraven is the Three Eyed Crow! It wasn't as big a reveal for me when I first read it either having not read the three novellas at the time but now ... yeah. Pretty big deal. So glad we can finally talk about it openly. :D

I just ... want you to keep reading, Shimpy. I haven't been saying as much lately because I don't want to inadvertently spoil anything because as someone has said earlier, the trickiest thing to not spoil is the things that don't end up happening. Not for Shimpy: I'm also very much looking forward to being able to have completely open discussions about all the characters when this is over and done with.

I'm not a fan of anything involving animal maiming or torture and the greatest horror of the Red Wedding for me was definitely what was done to Grey Wind (and Robb afterwards). So I can empathize with your stance for sure. The Varamyr brings up a lot of questions as to just how much of a skinchanger remains in their avatar when they pass on as well as brings back the question regarding the Others and whether they bring the cold, or whether the cold brings them. Very atmospheric, like you said, and one of my favorite prologues (probably falls second only to the Dragonstone prologue in Clash).

Shimpy, Jon and Theon's chapters are specifically amongst my favorite in the book. They are involved in two of the most compelling storylines in the book and I think you'll be pleased to find the Wall storyline to be far more complex than what we got in the show. There's also one new POV I'm quite excited for you to read. Dany's arc is far more nuanced in the book as well. People tend to generally be split about the arc but I tend to view it more positively. You have plenty more "wait! that didn't happen in the show!" moments to look forward to. :D Oh man, and when you start to get truely frustrated with the show I highly recommend checking out AngryGotFan's episode synopses. They are hillarious and one of two things that kept me sane through season 5 (the other being the hillariously sarcastic synopses gotgifsandmusics/theculteralvacuum do on Tumblr). I almost look forward to their reactions more than the actual show itself. Wait, who am I kidding. I 100% look forward more to their reactions than the show itself now.

I don't think we fully know what "Alleras"'s plans are. And don't worry Shimpy, I was unable to suss that out on my own too. There are indeed some grim things to come in Dance but there are some good things to look forward to as well. I for one enjoy Jon's stuff in book 5. You will have more divergences to look forward to, most I would say generally agreed as being for the better. I'm really excited for you to read the prologue for Dance, but you said you were going to read The Mystery Knight first because you're going in publishing order? Is that still your plan? (if so I'm presently on the Mystery Knight as well!)

Regarding Stoneheart, guys ... Shimpy, you've essentially hit on the nail why so many people love the Dorne storyline and the true value of it being that it is a story about a father and daughter who love each other deeply but both have the same tragic flaw of simply not communicating with the other. I feel like the creators just saw Dorne as being this "exotic" and "other" place that was sexually liberated and had scrappy fighters and just ... that's it. That's all they drew from the story. Yet it obviously goes much deeper than that. Cutting out the main protagonist was a huge mistake. I honestly wish they hadn't have even gone there at this point. My feeling is that ... as the books progress they simply have less of a grasp on the themes and that's in part because they are so busy with writing the show now. We criticize them (rightfully, IMO) for basically just writing down a bullet point list of plot points they need to hit and who cares how they actually get there, but when you consider the fact that book 5 hadn't even come out until after season 1 aired ... is it really any surprise? They simply don't have the time to sit down and analyze each chapter the way we do. And now they are so deep into it and we know that they literally only get the bullet proofed outline from GRRM with the stuff going forward. It's not an excuse though. They could have easily hired a consultant for the books but they simply chose not to go that route. The result is the nihilistic, everything is just so downright depressing and all these people are horrible and not even worth saving, let the mother fing wall down already and let the purge begin because the white walkers are officially the only faction worth rooting for anymore crap we got on the show last season. Funny you should also mention how weird it was that they presented Ramsay to us as someone we should sympathize. Gotgifsandmusings/theculturalvacuum have done some amazing retrospectives on the plot points from season 5 ... attempting to make sense of them as entities outside of the books to figure out what story the show was trying to tell/who the protagonist was and when it comes to the Winterfell storyline, season 5 spoilers ... The show really took the whole "Anyone can die" thing with this series and just ... ran with it. Somewhere along the line they forgot that their audience is supposed to care about what happens to the protagonists.

Now you understand why we were so frustrated with the Dorne plot. I waited around forever during the season 5 finale to hear Doran give the "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood speech." But I should have learned my lesson with Lady Stoneheart. I'll be waiting for both even on my death bed. Also, done in by lipstick or Dorne in by lipstick? Har har. I need sleep. Not funny at all. That article about Henry's six queens was hilarious though! I got a kick out of that read and Anne Boelyn's "probably introduced oral sex to England" snipe too. But yes, go Cleves or go home indeed.

That's not true. Brienne waits very patiently for a candle to be lit.

I would say "overthinking prophecies" would be more in line with thinking it is anyone other than Tyrion and Jaime. They are both her younger brothers. If it's Tyrion, it will be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Cersei mistreated him to the point where killing her will almost be self-defense. Jaime makes sense more narratively. That "We came into the world together. We'll leave it the same way" (paraphrasing on my part) line always struck me as important. Then there's the fact that Jaime can't truly grow as a person without cutting ties with Cersei completely. And then there's the fact that there are still caches of wild fire hidden all over the city and aside from Tyrion, Cersei's probably the only one left in King's Landing who knows about them. I don't see the possibility of Jaime murdering Cersei as a crime of passion. I see it coming under the circumstances of trying to save the city once more, and he'll be twice (thrice?) damned because he will become a kinslayer as well as a kingslayer and a man without honor ... yet under those circumstances it would probably be one of his finest acts. So in not overthinking this prophesy, it's either Tyrion or Jaime. My money's on Jaime.

There's also the question of whether or not prophesies in this series are self-fulfilling. I think at the very least, Cersei's fear of "the beautiful, more younger queen" and the "valonqar" inform on the motives behind her behavior towards both Sansa and Tyrion earlier on in the series. She clearly fears Sansa could be is queen and demeans her accordingly. And she clearly believes Tyrion to be the valonquar which is why she contstantly tries to have him killed. Of course her paranoia just serves to make both of them hate her, so should either fulfil the prophesy it was by her own doing in the end. As of right now I'm inclined to believe Daenerys is the younger queen and Jaime is the valonqar as well. It doesn't matter to me that the word specifies "the younger brother." Naratively speaking it just makes the most sense if it's Jaime. I would love it to come full circle and be Sansa in the end too, but that's my personal bias speaking.