[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

I was looking at Twitter and saw the picture from Stephen's Weibo and for some reason, like a Magic Eye picture, it suddenly became clear(ish). I think it's pretty obvious that this is a transition from Flashbacks (Oliver in the foreground) and Present Day (Felicity in the background), where Felicity and Oliver are stuck in the bunker for whatever reason. But what I can see now that I couldn't see before is that Present Oliver's head is directly to the right of Felicity's, you can see the top half of his ear above FB Oliver's arrows, and his shoulder is just below Flashback Oliver's ear. Here's an awesome outline of those things, but they are easier to see by comparing to the actual photo.

I believe they are crouching or sitting, he is facing forward, leaning against her (his back to her chest), and her arm is wrapped around his chest--that's her hand, then, below her head, and she is sort of turning toward him, like she's talking in his ear or trying to see his face better.

Thoughts?

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

12 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Good point. If Felicity had to hack a gov't drone to find Susan, what is Helix going to make her do before she can search for Oliver? And whatever it is, it apparently doesn't even work so what's the point? ('What's the point?' is S5's unofficial tag line.)

If Helix is connected to Prometheus, then no matter what she's doing for them, they could just be acting like they're helping, giving her access to what she needs, while actually blocking her (without her knowledge) from finding him. If not, then...IDGI.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

I've watched enough Monsters-as-Heroes shows that this storyline is pretty tired for me. I don't really buy it for Oliver, so we'll see how they try to explain it after this episode (I'm assuming they really won't have time to get into an explanation in 517, not that I would buy anything Chase says or anything Oliver says after six days of torture). I could see him liking the feeling of being in control after his five years away "on the island," and the five years since under the cloud of various Big Bads.

So...I hope it's something like that and not just some cheesy thing like Thea's bloodlust. Even better would be if he only thinks he likes it, because he was being tortured and because he's confusing a feeling of safety/control with a desire/enjoyment in killing, and that he realizes that by the end of the season.

[Small Talk: The Quiver]

19 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Whole stores devoted to Lindt?  Well now you've made me jealous. I still count myself lucky when I find other variety bags of their truffles beyond just Milk Chocolate, White Chocolate, and Dark Chocolate.  (Not that I'm complaining about having those three, lol)

You're in MN, right? There's one at the Mall of America!

[Veronica Mars Unpopular Opinions]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the popular opinion is she should have realized being a PI stressed him out and stopped, concentrated on school, let him buy her gifts and soothed him.

I won't argue against your opinions on the relationship, but I will say that this statement is not accurate in my experience. I've been around the show fandom since it first aired, and I definitely don't think this is the popular opinion. There are plenty of viewers who think there are things that Veronica and Logan could have each done differently at various points in order to stay in the relationship, but I have personally never seen anyone, let alone the majority of fans, suggest that Veronica should quit being a PI in order to appease Logan. The general tenor of the shipping fandom does tend to be slightly more sympathetic toward Logan than I am, but not to the point that they (in general) blame Veronica for everything or think she should abandon her identity or her own goals in order to give Logan what he wants.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

Marc, Wendy, please--never speak.

There is absolutely nothing to connect what Felicity is doing with Helix and what Oliver did re: William, aside from the most basic definition of the word "secret." The context, substance, and circumstances are completely different. Oliver's trust in Felicity should really not be damaged by this, at all, IMO. I dearly hope that they will not try to make that direct connection.

If the connection is that when you have lost a lot of people and gone through a lot of trauma, you start making bad and desperate decisions in order to prevent more loss, then...maybe. And there IS some connection between the Helix situation and Oliver's MO of going it alone, keeping people in the dark, walking a dicey moral line, making dangerous decisions, etc., which was Felicity's reasoning in 516 as to why even if she could understand the lie, they still couldn't be together. So if the "understanding" is of that--of why you would try to keep people out of things you are doing, especially when trying to protect them (again, not related to BMD, where Oliver was protecting no one but himself)--and the connection to their trust issues are related to that, then okay. That's what I was expecting. But...Marc is bad and all of his instincts are bad, and I am a little concerned. I hope someone who understands emotions/relationships better writes the episode where all of this is discussed, let's just say that.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Isn't she also the one that earned the nickname "Wrongda" because she so often slanted things the wrong way (or just plain got it wrong)?

Wrongda was Kristin dos Santos, who used to have a TV column on E! Online called Watch with Wanda, which was her pseudonym until she outed herself with her real name. Hello, I am old.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

I think if Helix had popped up only when Felicity needed it to save Oliver, that would make it feel like her S3 Ray/Palmer Tech situation where "her" storyline was really just written out of necessity for Ray's story. Even then, this would be more palatable because in some way, all stories on this show really need to ultimately serve Oliver's story. But they've laid the groundwork for this for many episodes before she even used it for something that was directly and mostly about Oliver, and he doesn't even know about it yet. I would be more frustrated by this storyline if it had gone the way some feared, where Felicity was separated from the team and off on "Helix Island" with a new team. Instead, she is fully integrated in the main stories, while also having her own thing going on. And her motivations for doing this only relate to Oliver insofar as he's been involved in some of the things that have caused her trauma, and that he's one of her teammates and loved ones, and so she will use this tool to help him. At this point, my only concern for how the rest of this plays out is that they won't adequately address her emotional reasons for doing this. Right now it's all headcanon, and I'd like some of that to become explicit. 

[Vampire Diaries In The Media]

I don't read KW's comments as sour grapes or like he made writing choices out of spite, but I do think those sound like very bad and dumb ideas, and bad writing instincts in general.

For the six seasons I watched the show, I shipped both SE/DE for 2.5 seasons, and then just SE for the next 2, and then neither for the next 1.5. So speaking as someone who has some understanding for KW's feelings about SE, I can say that I don't get what he wanted to accomplish here. Reuniting SE in S8 would have been absurd, but saying he had to kill Stefan because he couldn't reunite them? As some sort of final act of giving Elena to Damon? Whaaaa? 

Even when I shipped DE or SE, I always thought (and hoped) the show would end with Elena surviving alone (and human again) while both brothers died. And I still think that would have been the most poetic and satisfying ending. I don't think it's fitting or satisfying that Stefan should be the only one to sacrifice/pay (and I sure don't think he needed to in order to "give" Damon and Elena their happy ending). If anything, from your typical tragic hero arc perspective, that should have been Damon, as the character who "sinned" the most with least remorse or active penance throughout the series. It would have been his final act, the payment that makes up for the rest of it, that allows him to finally be the better man the show always wanted him to be.

Did Stefan deserve to make that payment as well? Yes, he's also a tragic hero. It was very in-character for him to do exactly what he did, and as I said, I think that's a satisfying ending for him. I just think it weakens their story--and Damon's character/arc, specifically--to let Stefan--the one whose entire character was built around his remorse and his desire to be better--be the only one who sacrifices/pays, while Damon, who only occasionally put forth the effort to be better, just skates away. Stefan ends up the hero who paid a fitting price for his weaknesses and crimes, while Damon paid nothing and got everything. And I'm not a Damon hater. I definitely did hate him at certain points throughout the series, and did really hate what DE did to both characters (and the show) in S4 and 5 in particular (I actually had little problem with them in S6). But in general, what I hated was the way the writers chose to only haphazardly allow him to grow, which includes the way they seemed reluctant to give him real consequences for his actions (that weren't actually worse consequences for other people). It would have gone a long way for me if they'd allowed him to pay this final price. Especially because the afterlife basically guaranteed that DE would be reunited, so it would have been fittingly tragic but not a crushing ending for them, IMO.

[Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"]

That was really sweet! I loved Stephen's short arc on TVD.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

16 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I just read the posted synopsis for 518 (Disbanded)...

Oliver defeated League-trained Malcolm Merlyn in S1, mirakuru-enhanced Slade Wilson in S2, League boss Ra's al Ghul in S3 and magical Damien Dahrk in S4.  But now he can't defeat Prometheus - one ordinary human with the same training as him - without the help of Bratva?  WTF?!

Not to stick up for this show or whoever writes their synopses, but...presumably defeating "Prometheus" is more complex than just a showdown with Chase himself, but more about shutting down whatever machinations Chase has going on, and other people or entities he has doing his dirty work. Assuming that is the case, Oliver required the assistance of all sorts of people each season to defeat the Big Bads, including in the finales. Plus, at this point, Oliver may still be stuck in hiding (or at least, the Green Arrow might be). I don't know--this doesn't bother me.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

To sort of continue a theme--Me learning the sex is in a flashback:

Since I suspected there was going to be a flashback to this summer because of SA's comment, I was leaning toward the sex happening then, so I'm not surprised. I am a little disappointed only because it would be sort of nice to know that they were already reunited and we could move on to the happy stuff. But I like the idea posited above that they could decide to slow it down this time. Or just show their conversation and how it led to where they were in 501 and beyond, and (hopefully) reveal something through that conversation that we can see has changed (or will change, starting now). And also if this is the start (or a mid-point) of a multi-episode reconciliation arc, then I AM HERE FOR IT.

As far as the post-coital conversation itself, if I had to guess, I would say that Felicity probably knew that their problems weren't resolved and/or that she still didn't trust Oliver. And if we're supposed to be able to use this conversation to understand them this season (and btw, I agree with @dtissagirl that I'm not convinced this flashback situation was always in the plan, though I do think their reconciliation was), then I would say she probably told him that they needed to put more distance between them. Depending on how all of that is worded, I don't think it would make Felicity look like the bad guy for somehow leaving Oliver on the hook while she went out and dated Billy. I think Oliver could still feel sort of unsettled about them in 501 simply because he would know she still had feelings for him but still be unsure whether she could ever get over what happened. And her finding someone new to date would be a way to create distance from Oliver, and considering she didn't seem to be leading Billy on as far as her commitment to or feelings for him, I don't think she would be doing wrong by either of them by trying to move on by just moving on.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Didn't she give her reason when she joined? Something about not wanting to get burned when she fought fire with fire, and wanted the Helix team behind her? If anything, it seemed to me she was motivated by Digg's speech to her. 

Maybe once she gets a better idea of what they do, or what they want from her, she wouldn't want to go through with joining up. But she does because of Oliver for whatever reason--it may not even be an imminent or new problem. Just his identity, or a vague threat related to William, or whatever else.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A:

Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver:

Me after reading recent SA interviews/SM referencing Felicity/Olicity:

Me after 515 and SA's Facebook Q&A:

Me after these salty pap tweets:

I came to terms with the limitations of this writing staff back in S3, and since then, I watch for pure entertainment only. I don't watch it when it doesn't entertain me, so I've skipped many scenes and a few entire episodes this season. When I saw the writing on the wall early in 5A, I just checked out. I've been waiting for the "pivot" off-screen and on, and I got the first hint of it when Wendy talked about a Felicity storyline as it related to Oliver without immediately dismissing that idea or downplaying it. Then Stephen started talking about it again. Then that (horrible, painful) scene in 515, where Oliver awkwardly framed his request in a way that made it about his relationship and Felicity was unhappy about it. If they were still going for no-drama, they wouldn't have had Oliver frame it that way and they wouldn't have had Felicity react negatively. And now we have actual spoilers (or, okay, hints at spoilers), so I'm back in.

As far as what I need for an O/F reunion to work for me--I don't. They didn't kill the ship for me in S3 or 4, and I haven't seen anything worse in 5A/B. (But also I view Oliver's vows in 416 as his apology/expression of remorse for his actions, so I haven't been waiting for that.) What I would like to see from this story is more acknowledgment/discussion of what happened between them last season and, more importantly (at this point for me), what's been going on with them both this season. Partly because I just honestly don't get where they are emotionally w/r/t each other, but really just in general? That's a huge failing of the season, and I'd like to get some insight on it. But they could also just fall into bed together and I'd be like, "...Okay!" I'm a cheap date when it comes to ships.

[S05.E14: The Sin-Eater]

I want to believe in the Oliver-locked-in-a-trunk theory, and not that this rules it out, but this episode was written by two novices. It was Barbara Bloom's first ever writing credit, and Jenny Lynn's second for Arrow. So some of the writing choices seeming off could just be chalked up to two writers who don't have much experience with these characters/this world/in general.

ETA: or ditto @statsgirl

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

I was mostly being snarky because the "adult" thing now gets my hackles up, but I do want them to take their time with this Felicity story, and I kind of don't care that it doesn't make logical sense for Oliver to not press more about what she's doing. I can fanwank that he just doesn't really know how to talk to her anymore and just let that be a good enough answer for now--same if he is sort of mollified by whatever happens in their Surprising Adult Conversation, but the story continues past that point and he once again misses the forest for the trees. I just hope that there is SOME emotional payoff to it, at some point? I'm tired of anticlimaxes on this show.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I hate those words because I always end up disappointed Seriously, I would be surprised if he kissed her. Can we get that?

Right? So, given SA's use of his two favorite O/F buzzwords--"surprising" and "adult"--my best guess is that he finds out about Pandora, asks her about it gently, asks if she's done with it, and assuming she is, they let it go and move on. No judgment, no concern, NO DRAMA!

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

Just now, Angel12d said:

So...let's just say they are redeeming Susan. She finds out Oliver is GA and doesn't tell anyone because of her "genuine feelings." What next? Is Oliver just gonna date her for the rest of the season? Does she just go back to reporting on meaningless crap?

I'm seriously trying to wrap my head around what their endgame is for her character, if not to be super shady?

No clue, and another thing I don't get: even if Susan ultimately decided not to out Oliver, she's getting all this info from and sharing all her thoughts about it with this PI, right? Who could very easily turn around and sell it to an actual journalist or law enforcement type? This is real-world-logic which I should never try to apply to Arrow, probably.

[America's Test Kitchen - General Discussion]

Yeah, I watched the snickerdoodle episode last night and was a little horrified at the amount of time they spent showing the three different pans of cookies at various stages of cooking/cooling? "Okay, so these cookies have cooled, these are still cooling on a rack for even cooling, and this sheet is just out of the oven and now we're going to put the cookies on a cooling rack!" Even showing the difference between the puffed cookie and the flattened cool one took too much time and was just...really low-level stuff for them.

In general, I was turned off by the episode. I wasn't a huge fan of Chris as a person, but there was something about him that made his role on those segments feel genuine, and I just do not buy it from Julia or Bridget. I know they know exactly how to make everything they are being educated on, and they aren't good enough actors to play dumb. (Not that I ever thought Chris was completely dumb or something, but I did buy him as aloof enough to be unaware of all the team's recipes/methods/etc.) And I'm not interested in watching anyone play dumb. I will continue to subscribe to the site because I trust the recipes, but I think I'm done with the show.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

I don't get that either. I mean if they want a team member like that, they can recruit the Vigilante. He's local, they'd save on gas.

But he has the wrong plumbing to be the next Canary! I really hope that after BS's visit, Oliver's like, "Okay, guys, Priority Numero Uno: run a search for any potential female vigilante to fulfill Laurel's arbitrary deathbed directive. Location unimportant--we'll convince her that she'll love Star City!!!"

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

11 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

I'm not sure what to you mean about "in present time Oliver has had two sexual encounters" because that's not exactly correct if we are taking about post-island. Post-island he's slept with Helena, McKenna, Laurel, Isabel, Sara, and Felicity (and possibly Susan). And yes, six/seven women in 4.5 years doesn't be exactly make a playboy in real life, but this is television.

Amell himself said that he wanted to explore Oliver's playboy ways again this season. So yes, Oliver has been, and is being written as a playboy. 

Everyone can interpret what qualifies a character as a "playboy" in their own way, I suppose. But in terms of what Stephen actually said in that interview (which I think was since taken down, but whenever it appeared, I quoted the relevant bit in this thread, I believe), it was something very close to this: "I told the writers that there are two things we have to stop saying about Oliver. One, we have to stop calling him a billionaire. He lost his money in Season 2. Second, we have to stop calling him a playboy. He's been with two women in three seasons [something to this effect, Amell's math may have been off as usual]. If you want to write him as a playboy, then by all means, but..." And then he hinted at Susan and their exciting dynamic or whathaveyou. The way it sounded to me was pre-defensive of Oliver as *not* being a playboy just for (eventually) sleeping with a new woman after Felicity, when prior to that, he hadn't been with anyone since Sara in S2. Just my interpretation, and you may take Stephen's dudebro "by all means!" as a literal request, but that's not how it sounded to me in that interview.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I thought she would be keeping a secret around 5x15 but is it that the secret comes out around 5x15?

You could be right about the timing--I have trouble keeping track of those things! Regardless of when the dark things happen or when they are revealed, I hope that this is the point of it. To show her trauma and have her loved ones help her out of it.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

The thing is, that spoiler from SA says that Felicity's secret comes out in 515, and assuming that it's what happens in 510-512 that puts her on her "darker" path, that's still another handful of episodes before Oliver presumably notices that something's up with her. (And I'm not surprised, considering we have BS, recruiting Tina, Bratva, Susan, forming a connection with Tina, mayor stuff, etc. coming up for Oliver.) 

There's being "unaware of the depth of her trauma right now" and then there's what we're seeing on screen, which is that they're intentionally writing Felicity as being so okay to the point that she didn't react to her friends being kidnapped by aliens and the majority of Havenrock in the earlier episodes was about Rory and getting him back on the team. 

Right, well I think that ties into my hope that they are intentionally writing Felicity as covering so hard for the depth of her trauma that no one knows she's feeling it (maybe not even her, as she has historically been shown to shove down and deny her own feelings pretty consistently). If they knew earlier on, I don't think she could get away with...whatever "dark" things she's going to do, because they might be monitoring her a little more closely. Instead, I think they just assume she's the rock she always presents to them. So my hope is that she does these things without the team's knowledge between 510 and 515, they find out in 515, and in the resulting conversations, they come to realize that she's pretty fucked up and has been for a long time.

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

Like @dtissagirl said, the directorial/editing choices were pretty baffling, the resulting optics are unnecessarily bad and dumb--Oliver tells Felicity and she immediately absolves him (good!), then everyone but Thea surrounds him (ummm), then Felicity cries alone at home (bad) while Oliver receives comfort elsewhere (ummm) from a lady he should not trust (bad) who answers her door in lingerie (whaaaaa?).

The kiss with Susan felt inappropriate, IMO, mostly because of that framing and because of bad timing. I think the EPs wanted to get that kiss in before the break and they wanted this scene of Oliver talking about his sads as a life-ruiner over the shots of Dig/Felicity (which again...bad, and why???), so they killed two birds with one stone. But I think they should have had their first on-screen kiss before then--earlier in the episode, a few episodes earlier?--so that this one didn't seem like anything other than Oliver going to talk to someone he was dating, and then doing something that people who are dating do for all sorts of reasons, not just as a precursor to sex. I assume they wanted this one to be like...Oliver reaching out to someone instead of folding inward and withdrawing as usual, looking for connection and comfort instead of the opposite. (And I get that some people would have wanted to see him reach out to Felicity instead, especially as a selfless act, but the motto of 5A is apparently that we can't have nice things.) But then they put Susan in lingerie and filmed it weirdly and I just don't really get it?*

At any rate, I believe that in general terms, Felicity is feeling more trauma than Oliver is right now (even though I think his specific trauma w/r/t killing Billy is about even with her grief re: losing her non-boyfriend), which makes him look extra selfish when he receives comfort after killing her non-boyfriend. But I guess my small hope for 5B is that we see that Oliver (and everyone else?) is intentionally being written as unaware of the depth of her trauma right now (even if we believe he/they should have picked up on it), and that once they realize it, they do something about it. Maybe? Please?

*ETA: There IS one other reason to consider as to why they made some of these choices re: the O/S scene, which is that they want viewers to see Susan as shady and be concerned that Oliver made a bad choice there. I kind of forget that it's not just my bias against her, but the actual narrative that wants you to be suspicious of her and worried/disapproving of Oliver.

[Small Talk: The Quiver]

The Crown didn't premiere until two months after this year's Emmys aired, five months after the eligibility period ended. If they get nominations, it will be for the 2017 Emmys. Also, the second season is already confirmed! And there are a rumored five-six seasons planned out, I think.