[S05.E02: Ballet]

5 hours ago, Redrum said:

This funeral nonsense also completely ignores the prior plot - that Fred was being exchanged for 23 women and  Gilead can rightly say that Canada/The US completely reneged on the deal..

No, they didn't. Fred *was* exchanged for the 23 women: he was delivered to Gilead, and the Eyes, as official representatives of Gilead, promptly took him into custody. (I believe that Nick told them that at the border the Eyes have jurisdiction, which caused Joseph to shrug and say to Fred, "Looks like he has us over a barrel.") Nick delivered Fred to No Man's Land in his capacity as an Eye, even though it obviously was at June's behest.

[The Testaments (sequel)]

3 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I agree Lydia's turning is tricky. But she's always had some lines where the Handmaids are concerned, and Putnam murdering Esther or nearly so (we'll have to see what happens in the next episode) when she hadn't done anything to "deserve" it under Gilead's warped rules is a lot even for Lydia.

Putnam didn't murder Esther or nearly so--Esther poisoned herself and Janine.

[THT Spoilers]

I found someone who had screen capped the spoilers before they were disappeared. It's from a reddit sub just devoted to spoilers called treason and coconuts, which I find adorable.

[S05.E02: Ballet]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I viewed it more as a situation where June was allowed certain privileges in working with Serena, but Serena maintained the power and ability to take it all away whenever she pleased.  They did get along, but it was all at Serena's pleasure.  And obviously, June was only there to begin with because Serena and Fred had helped to create a society that enslaved June.

That is all completely true. Now that the power dynamics have shifted, their relationship will either evolve into something new, or they'll remain bitter enemies. But whatever happens, it can no longer be one of Serena acting decently when she's in a good mood and abusive when she isn't. 

Apropos of this, here's a quotation from an interview with Elizabeth Moss that sheds some light on the way that she and Yvonne see their two characters. I thought it was pretty fascinating:

Quote

Clearly, I'm very much on board for this season’s promise to zero in on the central conflict with Serena. I understand that you and Yvonne refer to June and Serena as ‘Juliet & Juliet’. Is that that correct?

That’s right, we do.

Can you elaborate a little on that?

Yeah. It's hard for people to maybe understand, but we have such love for these characters and this inside knowledge of these women and who they are. And what we mean by that is that there is this bond between them. It is a bond of conflict and trauma and desires and love. But [they are] on two opposite sides of how to go about that. You know, they have the same needs. They have the same wants. They have the same goals, and that really bonds them.

So we think that they are the great love story of the show. They/we had this fantastic scene in season three, that was in front of the Lincoln Memorial, that we call their Break-Up scene. Like, that's the scene where they broke up. You know, that's where June believed that Serena would do the right thing. And June believed in Serena, and then Serena broke her heart, and they haven't really recovered from that.

Sure, and I mean, when Fred was 'indisposed', you know, they were very productive together!  They have real potential to be formidable those two!

[Laughs] Great way of putting that! [Laughs] Yes, they tried, they came together. They tried to work to make Gilead a better place. Serena seemed to be coming to a place of wanting women to have more rights in Gilead. And then she ultimately failed June, and that broke June's heart, it Broke. June's. Heart. But regardless, I think that she—[pause] and this is not in the first two episodes [laughs],  this is later!—I think she regardless, wants to believe that Serena will do the right thing, you know, she wants to believe that she will find her heart and find the good side of herself.

So however all this shakes down, at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that the actors themselves see these characters the way I see them!

[S05.E01: Morning]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m not sure what you’re saying. It’s very clear who the terrorists, rapists, and oppressors are in this world. They won’t be punished or stopped with a “things are what they are” attitude. People have to continue to fight.

I certainly don't mean that I think the message of the show will be that we should all roll over in the face of societal decay and oppression--far from it. But that's very different from endless cycles of retributive justice. Did June hunt down Fred because she honestly thought it would make things better in Gilead, or because she wanted him to suffer horribly as she had suffered horribly? Obviously, it's the latter: she wanted to punish him. We might all say that he "deserved" it, that we "understand" June, but there's really no moving forward ethically from "your fault"/BAM!/"your fault!"/BAM!.  That was the primary difference between the Old Testament (around which Gilead has built a dystopian society) and the New Testament (which had its own moral problems, but which was certainly an improvement). I think moving beyond the idea of revenge and punishment is pretty important, and I'm interested to see if that's where the show is going thematically.

[S05.E01: Morning]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I hate that they made Emily go back to Gilead, what a shitty way to write out such a great character just because Alexis wanted to leave. Why not give her a decent goodbye and have her and her family start over somewhere else in Canada? Its completely out of character that she would leave her family, without even saying goodbye to her son, after everything she went through to get back to them. 

Yeah, I didn't like it either, but I assume it's all in the service of foreshadowing June's struggle with the tug she feels from Gilead (not a great reason, because that tug is kind of dumb). Hopefully we'll see Emily back again, if Alexis gets her life back together enough for it.

One thing that I *did* like about it, however, was the great scene between June and Syl.  I think Sylvia was actually an early mouthpiece of what the theme of this whole story is going to be: the whole "your fault" finger pointing that we've seen throughout, the whole desire that the right person is punished in the right way at the right time, is all just sort of moot. Things are what they are, and making sure that we hate the right people doesn't really help anything in the end.

[S05.E02: Ballet]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Ah, so this is where we diverge...  I am not rooting for Serena to be better.  I'm rooting for her to try to be better (her version of better), but repeatedly failing in those attempts.  I've always seen Serena as driven more by power lust than evil intentions.  She had that pre-Gilead, as an author and celebrity.  She had her adoring followers.  When she wasn't able to hold the power herself, she did everything she could to make Fred as powerful as he could be.  Now that he's gone, she wants it all back, and then some.  She wants her flock of followers back.  She wants adoration of the masses.  (She loved the vigil outside the morgue - they weren't there for Fred, they were there for her.)  I want to see her get tripped up by her lust for power

I agree with the idea that Serena is entranced by power; she wants to be powerful. The wild card here is going to be motherhood and how that might complicate or change things for her. I'm imagining that Serena's becoming a mother (and actually giving birth herself) will change her in some fundamental fashion. This show is VERY big on the transformative powers of maternal love.

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

I really don't want to see June and Serena as a team.

I do, because I think that the "Woman's Work" episode in season two was the most poignant one of the series: they worked together, they found common ground, they respected each other, and then Fred was threatened by it and blew it all to bits, possibly irrevocably. But they never stopped having an underlying respect/caring for each other, even at their lowest points, even when they hated each other. I want to see that "Woman's Work" dynamic back in the end by having them working on the same side, even if they're doing it for very different reasons. However, that would be a wildly unpopular decision with viewers, most of whom want to see Serena torn apart by dogs. (Yvonne and Lizzie, from what I've gathered, see their characters the way I see them, but they're not ultimately in charge of the story.

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

If I were in charge of the writing room, over this season and next (I've heard next season is the last), I'd minimize June and concentrate on Serena.  I'd put Serena on a path to lead the pro-Gilead followers in Canada.  But, to make things interesting, I'd have her give it a bit of a Serena twist - she'd openly advocate for women being able to read and be part of the Gilead leadership, maybe a few other tweaks that have the slightest hint of feminism.  Nothing too radical, but enough to put her at odds with Gilead, where they don't know if she's helping their cause or not.  And just enough to entice Mrs. Putnam and the other wives to secretly follow her and start their own mini-revolution.  I think Serena vs. Gilead is a much more interesting story than June vs. Gilead.  Oh, and give Lawrence a bunch of screen time, too.  Just because he's a hoot to watch. 

If I don't get my SuperTeam ending, I'd be content with yours. I do think we're going to see the wives rising up this season, and that's why we have a bit of an increase already in Naomi Putnam's character. Serena vs. Gilead IS a much better story right now than what June has going on with them, and I have confidence that we're going to see plenty of it.

[S05.E02: Ballet]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I've always thought Serena was the best character of the show.  The best written character, the most interesting character.  Partly because you never knew which Serena you were going to get, and I think that was quite purposeful.  I really like what they've done with her this season, even only 2 episodes in

Co-sign--I feel the exact same way. She's definitely my favorite, because she's the most interesting and nuanced. She's written very well, and Yvonne portrays her brilliantly. There's something about Serena that makes me root for her to be better, and I'll be very curious to learn what the writers do with her ultimately.  Now that Fred is out of the way, now that she has options beyond Gilead, anything can happen. Until I can't think it anymore, I envision Serena and June working on the same side, if not precisely for the same reasons. 

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

My call on this, formulated during last episode, is that Serena is building her power base.  She has a following in Canada, and playing the role of the grieving martyr's widow is only increasing that following.  She wants to be back in the spotlight, as she was prior to Gilead, and she sees this as her chance.  I really think that's where this is leading, that Serena will be more or less a cult leader in Canada.

8 hours ago, crashdown said:

I agree, because it's her best way to survive the threat that she perceives from June. Serena, like June, will do whatever it takes to survive. I know that so many people are horrified at the idea of Serena's using Hannah as a prop, sure that it just solidifies her as irredeemably evil. But if things were reversed, would June have hesitated to pull something similar? I doubt it very much.  

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

Now, Commander Lawrence's role in all of this, I just can't figure out and I have no good theories.  I don't know why he would want to go along with this, unless he thinks the publicized funeral will spectacularly backfire and make Gilead look even more batshit crazy to the rest of the world.  But I love that I can't figure Lawrence out.  He's the second best character, next to Serena.

Co-sign again; I agree. I'm sure he's ultimately more good than bad, but the categories of "good" and "bad" seem to be becoming less and less meaningful.

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

My one criticism of this episode is, as almost everyone else has mentioned, they failed to give the viewers a plausible explanation as to how/why Canada would go along with any of this.  Why does she get to leave the country and mingle about Gilead relatively freely?

The writers are interested in emotional truth and clearly not at all interested in rational world-building. It is what it is.

[S05.E01: Morning]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

There is a ton of examples throughout history of "no man's land".  Land near the Cactus curtain in Cuba, land near the Iron Curtain in the Eastern bloc, the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea and the Green line in Cyprus.  

I can accept the fact that there is no man's land between Gilead and Canada that is currently in dispute as Gilead isn't an official country recognized by the rest of the world and basically it was a terrorist attack of the US

I've become persuaded that the whole way they've presented No Man's Land in the show is illogical--if the territory is disputed, it really should mean that both countries claim it, not that neither country claims it. However, it's also pretty obvious that the writers just couldn't resist the delicious resonance of the phrase "No Man's Land." Whether it makes political sense or not, it makes all the symbolic and poetic sense in the world.

[THT Spoilers]

13 minutes ago, RunningMarket said:

Dang. Anyone got a recap?

The main things that I remember are the beats of Serena-and-June, since that's what really interests me. Here's what I know:

5.05: June and Luke go into No Man's Land to meet someone to find out more about Hannah. They're captured by the team of Serena worshipers.

5.06: June and Luke are separated. Luke is taken somewhere and beaten up. June is taken to Serena. Words are exchanged, and June ends up given that impassioned speech about "may the children do better than we have" to Serena while Serena has a gun on her. Serena says "Amen" to that, wheels around, and shoots her bodyguard instead of June. She ushers June into her car and they speed away.

5.07: June is about to leave Serena (maybe Serena is letting her go? The spoiler wasn't clear), but then she realizes that Serena is actually in labor. June comes back; Serena is terrified of her but eventually realizes that June is going to help her and allows it. June delivers Serena's son. They talk about their relationship. Serena apologizes, and according to the spoiler source June "acknowledges" it, whatever that might mean. Eventually June convinces Serena to go to a hospital. While she's there, Luke (not sure how he got back) calls the authorities, because Serena has violated the terms of being in Canada (she's supposed to stay in some sort of Gilead ambassador place). Serena is taken into custody and her son is given to the Wheelers, creepy followers of Gilead whom Serena hates. Apparently Serena goes nuts and starts yelling for June to come help.

5.08. Serena has to decide whether to stay in custody or live as a pseudo-handmaid with the Wheelers and her son. June visits her, and Serena asks June what she should do. June tells her that they aren't friends, and then Serena says that they've been through so much together that they have a bond. Then June advises Serena to go to the Wheelers to be with her son.

Part of the episodes also concern an ask from Joseph that June help him start a "New Bethlehem," which would basically be Gilead without the torture and rape, and one in which people could leave if they wanted to. June visits Serena in 5.08 to find out what she knows about Joseph's New Bethlehem ideas.

That's all I got!

[S05.E02: Ballet]

I’ve been thinking a lot about the intercuts between the ballet and Fred’s funeral. It might have been a heavy-handed directorial choice, but I’m really digging it. The whole episode, and probably this entire season, is framed as a ballet between June and Serena. It’s almost comical how alike they are in their impulses and reactions in this episode. Each is convinced that the other has a master plan of destruction, when in fact neither has such a plan. (June never intended to go after Serena the way she went after Fred, and Serena certainly never intended to mess with June directly.) But their very certainty in the other’s deviousness has made it actually come to pass: Serena uses Hannah out of her own feeling of desperation (Hannah is her only weapon, and it’s clearly an effective one against June), and now June has no choice except to fight back. They’ve made themselves into the death-match adversaries that they currently are to one another.

I also love the fact that June is watching a literal ballet during Fred’s funeral. Remember the music box with the ballerina twirling inside it? It first showed up at the end of the Jezebel’s episode in season 1—Serena has been out of town but then, uncharacteristically, gives June the music box and tells her that it was something that she herself had in her room as a child and that she thought June might enjoy. June’s voiceover says that it’s “the perfect gift—a girl, trapped in a box. She only dances when someone else opens the lid, when someone else winds her up. . . . I will not be that girl in the box.” The music box disappears from June’s room after June is finally returned to the Waterfords after trying and failing to escape to Canada. Serena returns it to her after the two of them worked together writing and editing Fred’s memos in season two, as a gesture of solidarity and thanks. In short, there’s a lot of meaning in the whole idea of ballerinas and music between the two of them.

That’s why I just think it’s wonderful that we see June briefly, very briefly, enjoying the sight of a ballerina who is NOT trapped in a box, one who dances out of joy and not because someone else winds her up. But it doesn’t last for her—the sight of Serena with Hannah makes June think that in many ways she is still inside of Serena’s box, and it’s a place that she has sworn never to be again.

[S05.E02: Ballet]

37 minutes ago, HMFan said:

When did we ever see Serena and Fred - even implied - engage in having sex at any time leading up to her pregnancy?

The sexual event leading to the pregnancy occurred in 3.11 ("Liars"). Fred and Serena stop at a friend's house in the country on their way to meet Tuello and reminisce about their pre-Gilead lives. They're sleeping in twin beds in the guest room, lock hands across the bed, and Serena pulls Fred over to her bed, whispering "come." 

32 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I just never really accepted this as canon, that wives with handmaids couldn't sleep with their husbands. Sorry, I just don't believe that in a misogynist system designed for men to rule over women, that *men* designed a system where they can only have sex three times a month with one woman and can never sexually touch their wives ever if they qualify for a handmaid. 

There's rules that I buy but a rule where a man can't fuck as he pleases? Not buying it in a system set up by men and designed for multiple sex partners. 

It's canon, in that it's both in the book and in the series (and in the Bible). Married couples are only supposed to engage in sex for the purposes of creating children. If a Commander has a handmaid, it's been demonstrated that his wife is not capable of providing him with children--they don't entertain the thought that the problem might lie with the man. Since the wife is officially barren, there's no religious-state-sanctioned reason why the husband should be engaging in sex with his wife. That leaves him free for the handmaid and the Jezebels, and it leaves the wives with precisely nothing at all.

[S05.E01: Morning]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I too feel like Serena‘s arc has gone backwards. I liked when she and June were working together. And I like seeing the Serena that is disappointed  at how things turned out. Her wanting to return to Gilead, where her husband cut off her finger and nobody would hear her proposals, just because she had a few fans, doesn’t ring true to me and Canada allowing it certainly doesn’t ring true to me.

I'm going to remain stubbornly confident in Serena's arc--I think it's stuttering before the inevitable forward momentum. For one thing, Fred is gone, and he and his mind games were always an impediment to Serena's growth. Fred was the one who realized that June and Serena had bonded in his absence and responded by humiliating her with the beat-down in front of June, and Fred also was the one who put the idea of getting Nichole back into Serena's head after she had made peace with her decision. Fred sucked, in short, and now there's no more Fred. Serena will find her way once again.

[S05.E01: Morning]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That's a destinction without a difference. They showed it as true, not just as June thinking it. It's pretty clear that they had a completely different idea of where this season would go and walked that back hard, when they noticed that it was a stupid idea.

No they did not. They IMMEDIATELY (as in, the day after the season four finale aired) indicated clearly that June would not be leaving Luke, that this was something in June's head but certainly not in Luke's. I'm not sure why you think that's a trivial distinction, because it isn't one at all. 

[S05.E01: Morning]

37 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Dont get me started on how Gilead has the border locked up so tight there's almost no hope of escape and Canada has armed border guards and fences too... but there's a national park sized chunk of land where everyone can run free and commit wanton acts of murder. 

I mean, I don't mind handwaving at stuff but really....

Oh, I know--the border situation has always been crazy. What are these diners, for instance, where commanders and Americans can meet and chat? But I think there's no reason that we can't accept the concept of a disputed territory in which neither Gilead nor Canada represents the law of the land. There have been such places historically--here's a snippet that I found about one of them:

Quote

The 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and Transjordan were signed in Rhodes with the help of UN mediation on 3 April 1949. Armistice lines were determined in November 1948. Between the lines territory was left that was defined as no man's land. Such areas existed in Jerusalem in the area between the western and southern parts of the Walls of Jerusalem and Musrara. A strip of land north and south of Latrun was also known as "no man's land" because it was not controlled by either Israel or Jordan between 1948 and 1967.

[S05.E02: Ballet]

7 minutes ago, HMFan said:

I'm not so sure that there won't be a plot twist...Serena forms an alliance with June. Much like commander Lawrence and Nick do -- they work from the inside. If Serena can use her husband's death to travel freely between the borders, she can also use it to her advantage, and Tutello can use it for intel as well.

That's what I'm expecting to happen at the end of season six, a teaming-up of Serena and June in which both of them come together to create a better version of Gilead, one in which women can read and there are no salvagings, tortures, or rapes but one in which the basic nineteenth-century societal structure remains. I think June will be forced into working toward a revised Gilead instead of blowing it to bits because she's going to get Hannah back and ultimately lose her again when Hannah is miserable in Canada and wants to return to Gilead. Serena, of course, has her own reasons for wanting a more palatable version of Gilead.

12 minutes ago, HMFan said:

I also wonder who the father of Serena's baby is. We know it's not Fred.

What do you mean, "we know it's not Fred"? We know that it *is* Fred. The showrunners have been very, very clear on that point.

[S05.E01: Morning]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Didn't they imply or outright say last season that June had crossed a line that made her unable to ever be with her family again? Well they retconed that really flippin quickly.

And saying that she thought she'd be in jail. Yeah, sure. It was clear she was going to go on a murder spree. Man they walked that one back hard.

No, they never said that. They said that June THOUGHT that, not that it was true. Nothing was walked back.

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Speaking of which, how is she not in jail? The american guy said it himself, the territory is disputed. Both Canada and Gillead lay claim to it. Which means Canada should very much prosecute her for what she did there. In not doing so, they basically say that they have no claim to that land and it is therefore Gilead's.

No, that's not how it works. The land belongs to NEITHER Canada nor to Gilead--that's what makes it "No Man's Land." The laws of Canada do not apply in land that Canada does not control.

[THT Spoilers]

The Tumblr I linked to above has been taken down--guess someone at Hulu sent her a Cease and Desist. 

[THT Spoilers]

If any of you REALLY want to be spoiled, here's everything you could possibly want to know about the first eight episodes of season 5. It's not for the faint of heart!

[THT Spoilers]

Episode titles and descriptions pulled from Reddit:

Quote

501 - “Morning”

June struggles as she considers her next move after killing Fred. Serena is left reeling after the death of her husband.

502 - “Ballet”

Jane  and Luke attend a ballet. Serena says goodbye to Fred. Janine and Esther accompany Lydia to a gathering at the Putnam house.

503 - “Border”

June and Moira journey to the border to send a message. Serena attends a dinner party at the Lawrence house. Lydia prays for Janine’s recovery.

504 - “Dear Offred”

June works to overcome her violent instincts while grappling with Serena’s close proximity. Serena settles into her new role in Toronto. Lydia helps Janine with her recovery.

505 – “Fairytale”

June and Luke venture into unfamiliar territory in search of information. Serena gets to know her new hosts.

506 – “Together”

June teaches Luke the basics of survival. Serena tests the hospitality of The Wheelers. Aunt Lydia makes a surprising discovery.

507 – “No Man’s Land”

Alone and isolated, June and Serena must labor together for both to survive.

508 – “Motherland”

June receives a tempting offer from a surprise visitor. Serena hits rock bottom and searches for allies.

509 – Title TBD

510 – Title TBD

Episode 7 excites me. I don’t precisely *ship* June and Serena, but their occasional flashes of camaraderie are a lot more compelling to me than comic book superhero-versus-supervillain stuff. Bring it!

[Who is...Today’s Guest Host?]

Robin Roberts was mine as well. She's also an actual fan of the show, and that apparently makes a big difference. (On the other hand, LeVar was a fan of the show, and he was the worst host of all.) Oh, well. Time to focus more on the questions and less on the host--the questions are the important thing, after all!

[Who is...Today’s Guest Host?]

I wonder if the suits are sorry that they didn't just pick Ken during the wave of time when Mike Richards appointed himself. This is what comes of being overly cautious about one careless, in-poor-taste tweet. We're stuck with Mayim . . . (that's correct!) for at least another year.

[This Is Our Spoiler and Speculation Topic]

1 hour ago, pennben said:

My recollection was she gave an interview & stated it was in the contract & subsequently walked that back and said it had just been in conversations about where they saw the character story going.

Yes, that's my recollection as well, but I remember it as "lose weight" and not "have weight loss surgery." There's a HUGE difference in those two stipulations. I certainly never remember Dan Fogelman retracting anything as "unethical, horrible, really take your pick on adjectives." Granted, I don't follow this show with bated breath, so I might have missed scandal or two along the way.

[This Is Our Spoiler and Speculation Topic]

3 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I doubt any television production could force an actress to have surgery even if she signed a contract agreeing to lose weight, that would be insane.   They had the option to fire her for breach of contract,  but due to the immense popularity of the actress,  they chose to alter the narrative.  

Again, are you speculating, or do you have evidence that there was an actual discussion putting surgery on the table? Are you speculating, or have you read that there was a discussion about breach of contract? If you have evidence, can you point me to those articles, even generally? Thanks.

[This Is Our Spoiler and Speculation Topic]

1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

No, the showrunners realized that they could not force Chrissy to lose weight by getting surgery.

Do you have a source for that, or is it just speculation? I haven't read that, and I'm interested. Thanks!