crashdown
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Posts posted by crashdown
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21 minutes ago, paramitch said:
So it just felt like this is where this has been going -- some kind of resolution beyond mutual hate and violence. And it's so interesting to me -- so much more so than the mutual plotting for destruction. I'd honestly much rather see them evolve somehow. And it feels natural and right as far as the writing -- this entire season, we've watched the two women almost parallel/counterpoint each other as they processed their feelings and struggled to find new lives. I loved watching Serena have to deal with her own captivity and denigration, her own realizations in the tiniest way of what she put June through. And am so happy to see June move past blind rage and into a new way to handle her trauma.
I totally agree, and I'm glad that the Hero vs. Supervillain stuff that we saw at the beginning of the season was just a setup for the more emotionally complex, more thoughtful arcs that we're seeing in this episode. I also, by the way, loved Serena's reaction to Wheeler telling her about June's capture:
Wheeler: We caught your arch-enemy! I'm sending Ezra into No Man's Land to torture and kill her! Isn't that awesome of me?
Serena (visibly weeping): Yep, that's exactly what I want for her. I'm so happy. Cool, cool, cool.(I realize that it could be argued that Serena was crying out of joy and relief, except for the fact that she so obviously wasn't.)
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1 hour ago, paramitch said:
I wanted Fred to die and was happy it took place here. Still, the moment June bit him, I went, OH MY GOD NO.
The interesting thing about that bite is that it's not only a callback to the first scene of the episode where June is dancing with Fred and tells herself not to bite him (that callback is obvious), but it's also a callback to the episode in season 1 when June tells Janine that she can't go around biting her mistress and commander. I liked that.
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6 hours ago, paramitch said:
I loved that too. The use of a woman's real name is so powerful here, so his using not just her name, but her full name, really moved me.
What makes it even more powerful is the fact that June was the one to initiate the first name usage, not Lawrence. I liked seeing her take some of her self-ownership back with that little move.
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On 11/18/2022 at 9:54 AM, paramitch said:
I loved that we see Lawrence abet all of this, enable June, and yet also he (and she, and we) still knows he is damned no matter what for what he did.
One other thing that I loved in this episode was the small Lawrence/June moment at the end, right before June started off with the kids. She and Lawrence called each other by their first names: June said something like "May God grant you peace, Joseph," and he answers, "And you, June Osborne." It was really a beautiful moment, in which they both acknowledged their mutual affection and respect. (And, of course, seeing Lawrence reading Treasure Island to kids that he insists he dislikes was adorable!) I'll be a Lawrence fan until he proves me wrong, and even then I'll leave kicking and screaming.
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17 hours ago, paramitch said:
That room was just as pearl-clutching as those Nazi officers' wives would have been in the same situation. And they resented not being able to lie to themselves because of it.
Your post is so filled with good stuff that I have to add a couple of P.S.'s. This is really spot-on, both for this particular scene and as a theme throughout the show in general. I remember that episode in season two when Serena was trying to be nice to June and show her the nursery, and then June suddenly breaks "handmaid" character, tells her a little about her life with Hannah, and then asks if Serena could let her see Hannah from a distance. Serena goes nuts and sends June back to her room, but she does it with tears running down her face. Then she goes into her greenhouse and furiously prunes her flowers. She's angry for the same reason you're mentioning above: June has forced her into seeing handmaids as PEOPLE, as MOTHERS, and she just can't allow herself to go there and keep up her own carefully constructed little world. That was nicely nuanced writing too.
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16 hours ago, paramitch said:
It's so interesting to come in late here, and everyone hates the show so much, and I'm honestly having a blast so far in season 3.
Is it perfect? No, but I think it's still a smart show (beautifully acted, designed, and produced) that is asking some interesting and incredibly important questions about what human beings are capable of (and how we process trauma).
I'm really enjoying your posts about the show, and I hope you keep them coming. I agree with you. The show isn't perfect, but it's ambitious and it does some things very well. Not all of us are hate-watching!
16 hours ago, paramitch said:To answer what seems to be the main issue with this episode, I do think it's possible and even understandable for June to have really confused feelings about both Fred and Serena. Who, yes, should die in a fire, the sooner the better, don't get me wrong.
But because they are human beings, and she was literally a forced family member for over a year, there is all this messiness in there too. I can believe she still thinks there is good in Serena, because while she saw her do horrible things, there were all those other times when they felt connected, even loving. Some days a slap, other days, a hug. Classic abuse. Even Fred was somehow a part of this mix in this horrible way, thanks to the awful forced intimacy of the rape ceremonies, her fake-mistress period, and then of course that final horrible pregnancy rape by them.
This is a big issue in this particular episode, of course, and it continues as a fascinating dynamic throughout the show. I'm particularly intrigued both by June's feelings about Serena (I think her feelings about Fred are a lot simpler--she mostly has contempt for him and is adept at manipulating him) and the HMT fandom's reaction to the show's presentation of those feelings. There's a lot to unpack there both within the show and on the meta-level, and I'll be very interested in what you think as you move along. Thanks for the thoughtful comments!
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8 minutes ago, circumvent said:
There is no nuance in how June feels about Nick and I can't see this as realistic. Then again, it is bad writing all around, based on a excellent book that didn't tell that particular story so...
But the book DID tell the story of Nick and June, and she certainly was in love with him there. You're right that there isn't nuance in Nick/June--it's presented as pure romance and nothing else--but I think that's part of the point. Nick is fantasy; Luke is real life. I just don't see how anyone can argue that Nick's encounters with June were traumatic. She was attracted to him and fantasized about him, and then they had an affair that by all accounts was very satisfying to her. I don't see how it helps the character to take away her desires and her agency and force her to feel something that she does not feel. If June doesn't consider Nick to be a trauma, he isn't a trauma, regardless of whether or not we think he ought to be. Love is complicated, and so are human beings.
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4 hours ago, circumvent said:
Thank you for this. It is unthinkable that someone would feel attracted to anyone who raped her, even if it was forced. Maybe conflicted feelings because he was forced but not a desire to see or be with. That would only make her relive the trauma over and over. It would also indicate a trauma so serious, it messed up her already messed up head. But I guess the writers did think it would be a good idea, and did write it as a love story. Twisted minds
June was attracted to Nick and fantasized about him before Serena arranged the "mating." June is not processing what happened with Nick as a trauma, and to insist that she should is really to assume that we know best how she ought to be reacting in all situations. There certainly are reasons why June shouldn't jettison her life to be with Nick, but I don't think "trauma" is one of them.
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3 hours ago, Redrum said:
Except that isn't really doable. Canada can STOP accepting new American or Gilead refugees.... but they can't deport refugees they've accepted without due process. They can't pitch them out willy nilly without facing massive issues with other countries.
You're right, it doesn't make sense. What can I say? There's only so far I can go to defend the show's building of a fictional political world (spoiler--not very far!).
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Here's an interesting quotation from Bruce Miller in a TV Line interview about his choice for that final June/Serena scene--long, but I think worth quoting in full. It tells me a lot about both his process and what we might expect in the final season:
The season was so much about June and Serena dancing around each other and finding out that, you know, even though they have a complicated relationship, they have a relationship. So, the season was always about that. So the capper on the end, this moment, it was spectacularly easy to figure out who was going to be in it. As I was starting to think about the end, to think about June and Luke having to flee again and what that was like… It came up because of Episode 7. When I when I read Episode 7, Rachel Shukert’s episode — that was her first script on the show, the episode where June and Serena are together and Serena is giving birth. So, God bless Rachel for being a fantastic writer and a quick study.
But after that episode, just seeing the dailies, actually, the connection between the two women, the positive emotional connection that could coexist with all the real venom and vengeance, surprised me… You don’t really realize how far Lizzie [Moss] and Yvonne [Strahovski]’s character have come since they’ve had a scene together, or a real scene together, an honest scene together. So, having all those things that seemed so delicious — the birth scene! I mean, after that was over, you’re like, “Well, it seems like this story cannot be overkill. Those two magnets click again.” I don’t know what’s going to happen, but it does feel like the end of that story is these two people finding each other again.
… I think both of them are relieved to see a familiar face, which is the point of the season is that they’re familiars. They are not friends, they are not colleagues. They’ve done all this stuff. They are none of those things, but they are in each other’s lives, and they know each other more than a stranger — and that has value. In this particular moment, seeing not a friendly face, but a familiar face, is what that moment is about. And they’re in the same boat. And it’s just I just love that they’re, you know, they’re both on the bottom. Usually, it’s the other way around for them.
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39 minutes ago, iMonrey said:
Mark made it sound like refugees were just "pouring" across the borders into Canada. Which doesn't make any sense. Has Gilead security become that lax of late?
The refugees weren't coming from GIlead. They're already *in* Canada. Mark said that Canada doesn't want them ANYMORE. So they're coming to Toronto from other parts of Canada to be sent to other places.
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6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:
Also Tuello couldn't scrounge up some fake papers for Luke, or just put them in a car and find a safe border crossing to Alaska? Weak
Well, of course he could have put them in a car, but that wouldn't be great television, would it? The whole point of everything was for June to end up completely alone in a sea of people, and then to find Serena and not be alone anymore. I think that was a pretty powerful ending, and a lot more interesting than watching June and Luke drive a car, stop for gas, and hit up 7-11's for snacks on a road trip. Also, what's more romantic than a wrenching goodbye at a train station? Nothing at all! Cars and planes just can't compete.
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3 minutes ago, dmc said:
Having a real female friendship can change your life anywhere. It’s makes your feel accepted, understood, and that you have a found a place where you belong. That’s why Gilead keeps track of the Handmaids’ shopping routes and how long they are there…June says it Re Emily…she’s my spy and I am hers. Gilead knows that women being friends is dangerous. It’s why they basically create a society where only men are encouraged to congregate and be close. Women are watching each other.
Yes, exactly. And that's exactly why Fred felt so threatened when he came home from the hospital in season 2 and clocked the music box and flower that Serena had given to June as thanks for helping with the writing work. He was no idiot: he knew what it meant, and he knew that letting the two of them get closer would be a problem for him. That's why he beat Serena and forced June to watch, because he knew that it would stop whatever friendship might be developing absolutely cold. And it worked: by the next episode, Serena decides that June would leave the Waterford house as soon as the baby is born, rather than nursing her through weaning. I hated Fred for many reasons, but that was a big one!
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9 minutes ago, dmc said:
There was a legit light in Serena’s eyes when she sees June and she looks ecstatic. I feel like this is Serena’s first friendship.
I feel that way, too. I've spent more time than I should pondering whether having an actual female friend before Gilead might have really changed Serena substantially. Maybe it would have. Maybe it would have helped her get beyond her narrow, narcissistic perspective and helped her understand other women. Maybe if she understood other women, she wouldn't have been so quick to sell them out. She's never been happy, and the only closeness she's ever had came from her relationships with men like Fred. At any rate, realizing that you love someone that you've spent years abusing in the past can't feel very great. I do feel sorry for Serena, even though it's a minority opinion.
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Since I'm watching the show mainly for the June/Serena interactions, the absurdly contrived end of the episode pleased me. I really love the idea that circumstances have brought June and Serena to the same physical and emotional space, both of them fleeing with their babies. I love that they're going to have to figure out this thing together. (June had told Luke that she didn't want to do this alone, and now she doesn't have to.) No, I don't anticipate co-parenting and coconuts--I'm going to be very surprised if they actually make it to Hawaii--but they're clearly going to be working together and supporting each other, and that's cool with me. (Yes, yes, I know: evil rapist, abuser, snake, trauma bond, etc. Too bad!)
A couple of notes about that last scene, which I'm sure I'll be watching quite a few more times over the course of the year that we'll have until the next episode:
- I think I posted somewhere that, after June's help with Noah's birth, Serena's feelings regarding June became relatively uncomplicated: she loves June, and she wants June's friendship and approval. The fact that June told her that they weren't friends and refused to help her find a lawyer apparently didn't shift any of that--she looked at June as if she were seeing her long lost lover on that train. I really think that something in Serena shifted, at least as far as June is concerned, and that she's going to be as loyal to her as she's capable of being. The "as she's capable of being" is the sticking point, because she may not be that capable at all.
- June's feelings about Serena, on the other hand, are Complicated with a capital C, as well they should be. She's the injured party in the relationship; she's the one who experienced Serena's abuse and evils. With June, I think we see a trauma bond, an instinctive kinship, a hatred, a compassionate understanding, a belief in Serena's ability to change, and a real affection all intertwined, with different bits of that witch's brew bubbling up at different times. June has all the power in this relationship now--Serena wants whatever June chooses to give, and it's not yet clear what June is going to do. (I read an interview with Lizzie Moss who said that it was important to her that the ending be a cliffhanger of sorts, so the audience would feel unsure about whether June is about to punch Serena or to hug her. It was also Lizzie's choice to end with the chorus of Billie Eilish's "Bury a Friend" as the perfect lyrics for the moment: "What do you want from me? Why don't you run from me? / What are you wondering? What do you know? / Why aren't you scared of me? Why do you care for me? / When we all fall asleep, where do we go?")
- I also read that they went back and forth about that last "Do you have a diaper?" line. They apparently had a lot of different variations of it, and some endings where they just cut after "Hi June./Hi Serena." It was important that the audience understand that this was an olive branch from Serena and sort of a joke, because of course Nichole's diapers are too big for Noah. I'm not totally sold on the line, but Yvonne delivered it well.
- Lizzie intentionally wanted to end on a June smirk that echoed Serena's smirk in 5.02, when she is standing with Hannah on the jumbotron. I'm not certain why she made that choice, since the situations are so different, but I'm going to think more about it.
- The pacing of this episode was just about perfect. I had read the spoilers, and I thought the whole thing sounded ridiculous, but I was surprised at how well it played out on the screen. I was particularly impressed with the Serena reveal. There was so much going on in the episode that I think it was really possible just to forget about Serena entirely, so it genuinely was an ending that made a dramatic impact.
- It'll be really interesting to learn how Serena found her way to the train; I'm sure it wasn't Tuello, who had his hands full and who would have given June a heads up if he knew about Serena. I read an interview with Yvonne, who said that she imagines that Serena ended up in a shelter that gave her clothes, and that she would have had to come up with a plan to get a fake refugee card somehow. She's resourceful, so I have no doubt that she could have pulled it off.
Finally, hats off to Lizzie Moss's directing in this episode; I'm impressed. This was a hard directing job, with all of those crowds and different locations, and some of those shots were just gorgeous. I know people mock her for all of those closeups of her own face, but there's a lot more to her than that. She's got real talent for this.
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39 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:
And finally, we have two extremely important assets in the fight against Gilead -June and Serena, for different reasons- and instead of taking them to a safe place in a private plane, they're put in a train where Serena, in all justice, should be recognized and lynched.
There’s no indication that Tuello knew anything about Serena—she found her own way to the train.
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2 hours ago, Redrum said:
I just think jamming Serena of all people into the story is a fail point.
Why? Serena is a very popular character (love her or hate her), and they seem to adore working with Yvonne. There's also a lot more story to tell in Serena, unlike regarding many of the other characters. I think keeping her around for the sequel in some fashion would make sense. (I actually kind of envision her morphing into Ada, but we'll see!)
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Thanks for the spoilers. The Osblaine faction will be delighted. As for me, I can't believe what a contrived soap this whole thing has become. We'll see how it unfolds on screen, but I'm dubious.
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1 hour ago, circumvent said:
While I get what you both are saying, that's not my argument, or rather, you are just emphasizing my argument: that they diverted too much from the book, making most/all that happened after the first season contradictory with the story they were telling, BECAUSE they decided to tell the story from beginning to end (of Gilead, with the same characters).
There's no real indication that they're intending to tell the story of the end of Gilead in THT--that won't come until The Testaments, and it will have largely different characters and be 15 or so years in the future.
1 hour ago, circumvent said:They they could get into June's story, when she and her family are somehow captured and kidnapped to Gilead - not as part of a whole event with lots of other women and children, but for other reasons. In this scenario, the place was already established, suffering from the shortages and ration, which would lead them to try to be more diplomatic at some point. Most "original" women captured from the former US would be banished, or old, or dead, the newer generation would be illiterate. Then comes June and becomes the hero they've always wanted her to be. I would swallow that story better, not hate the show so much.
That would be far from the book, and it would be less interesting (to me, at least). I think part of what makes the original Handmaid's Tale story so compelling is June's original innocence and happiness in her life, before it came crashing down around her. If she had grown up in a world in which Gilead had already existed, we couldn't have any of that. I think it's fine to tell the story of the first 5-10 years of Gilead, but the writers should have done a better job of researching world politics and international relations to figure out how to be a little bit more realistic with what the rise of a new autocracy would mean.
As far as June's being the "hero they've always wanted her to be"--that's up for debate. I'm not sure how much June is intended to be a hero; at most, she's depicted as a reluctant hero. Whatever she's done, she's done for essentially personal reasons, rather than to advance the cause of the downfall of Gilead. (A big example is killing Fred, which was done entirely for her own revenge. Yes, she managed to swing a trade for the 22 resistance women, but she would have wanted to kill Fred regardless of that. There's no doubt in my mind that keeping Fred alive and pumping him for Gilead intel would have been better for the cause than killing him was, but that wasn't relevant to June.) Right now, June doesn't want to be a resistance leader: she wants to find Hannah and live a life in peace knowing that her two children are safe. That won't work out for her--she'll have to join the resistance eventually--but it's not because she's clearly destined for heroism.
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5 hours ago, circumvent said:
Great insights in the posts above and now I wish I had a chance to ask the writers why they turn the story of Gilead in the book - decades, maybe more than a century rule - to a "two-term" autocratic country.
If they're going to stick with the premise of the Handmaid as someone who was there at the beginning of Gilead, they're going to have to tell the story of Gilead in a relatively few number of years. I suppose it would have been possible to have Gilead have existed for decades before June was somehow snatched into it, but it wouldn't be the same story. It's a lot more powerful to have a narrator who remembers Before very clearly. The worldbuidling of Gilead in the show is ridiculous, of course, but I don't think they could have changed the timeframe of the story.
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4 hours ago, SourK said:
LMAO the blue-haired girl is my favourite character. The way she just stares at Serena and her insane, no-context request and then she's like, "You know what? I'm in!"
Yeah, I love her, too. I have a fantasy that Serena will just run away with her, dye her own hair green, and go live on a commune with cool people to finally learn to be a decent human being. If we never see Serena again, that's my ending for her and I'm sticking with it! The blue-haired girl is unfortunately a one-off (she's not listed in IMDB for the next episode), which was a bummer for me. I was kind of hoping that she'd turn out to be Melanie or someone else from The Testaments.
56 minutes ago, Whimsy said:As a past shipper, even I didn’t see the point of June and Nick meeting. Now I don’t ship June with anyone because I find her infuriating and exhausting.
These Nick meetings are really kind of comical, because they all seem to be written by fourteen-year-old girls who think that love is like Leo and Kate in The Titanic. They're always done exactly the same way--mournful longing, confessions of love, the last-second callback-after-the-farewell to say something profound. (We love each other SO MUCH, but alas! We can never be together! And now, I will slowly sink into the sea under this iceberg, never, ever letting go!) I mean . . . I'm as soppy as the next person, but sheesh! Those two fights between Luke and June in 5.08 are *actual* ways that grownups who love each other can communicate (or fail to communicate). June and Nick's "This is a fine mess" flirty banter is not. (I also think it's hilarious that somehow Nick can appear on cue in a matter of hours when it's a nine-hour drive between Toronto and Boston and air space is--ahem!--not super friendly right now!)
And yeah, not a great episode. Not great writing, not great directing (sorry, Brad!). I don't have a lot of hope for the season finale, because it's going to have to cover a lot of stuff (Janine, June's assassination attempt, Lawrence and Naomi's marriage, Serena's escape, whatever's about to go down between Nick and Lawrence) in a very short amount of time. I don't think it's likely to do any of those narratives justice.
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13 hours ago, Redrum said:
I don't mean to disparage the concept but any time a script is optioned, its considered to be in development. Look, I don't disagree that Hulu has its hands on the project, I just don't think much will come of it and there's many ways to do that story without letting it interfere with going down an unexpected angle with Handmaid's Tale.
Well, Variety considers "optioned" and "scriptwriting" as distinct phases, and they report when a project moves from one to the other--they, at least, don't think they're one and the same thing. As far as The Testaments goes, per Bruce Miller a writer's room has been convened and scripts are starting to be written. Ann Dowd has been signed to play Aunt Lydia (per an interview with her), so we can be pretty confident that she'll survive the current series. I agree with you that none of that guarantees a definitive pickup, but Hulu has been pretty clear in communicating that The Testaments will replace the The Handmaid's Tale, and all indications are that it'll be in about the same timeframe as we usually wait between seasons (that is, we'll see season one of The Testaments a year after season six of The Handmaid's Tale).
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3 hours ago, Redrum said:
I question whether they are setting up for The Testaments, number one. I know Hulu has optioned it but that may be simply to keep everyone else's hands off.
The Testaments has moved from "optioned" to "script development," per Variety. It's happening.
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16 minutes ago, SourK said:
Disagree. I hate Nick, and part of the reason is because I think he never wanted June to be free -- he just wanted her free to be with him.
Where's the evidence of that? Nick tried to get June out twice, and neither time would he have been able to go with her. He called her selfish after she chose to stay the second time (when she gave Nichole to Emily), because so many people had risked their lives to get her out. When did he ever do otherwise to show how he selfishly wanted to keep June with him?
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S05.E01: Morning
in The Handmaid's Tale
Yes. I’ve thought about that speech a lot, because it’s (as you say) part of the main theme of the show as a whole. On the one hand, there are the religious concepts of “Your fault! Your fault,” punishment, and forgiveness (or failure to grant forgiveness). On the other hand, there’s the possibility of putting all that aside, of building something new or walking away entirely. Syl’s speech is an articulation of that second way, and I was really happy that the writers used her to articulate it.