[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Because to them it was all over.  Josh said he was sorry, did his penance, and the girls forgave him.  It was done by that point.

Yeah, I think this is key. I think they are probably honestly surprised by all of this. I think they probably honestly believe that this was done and dusted and never to be spoken of again. Their attitude about this really seems to be no different than it would have been if Josh had been caught joyriding in the neighbor's pickup.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Regarding Jim Bob and sex, I'm not sure I've ever observed a man his age who is so obsessed with sex. (Consensual, respectful) sex can be fun! A lot of people like it. But he's 50 years old and has been married for what, 30 years? Why is it still the only thing he talks about? We get it, Jim Bob. Someone liked you enough to marry you and have sex with you. Congratulations? What are you still trying to prove?

Regardless of the causes of Josh's behavior, which I won't speculate on, I find Jim Bob's lack of boundaries extremely disturbing.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I can only imagine the team of attorneys and PR people that are hovering around the dining room table on a nightly basis.

I wonder if Michelle is drilling them on spelling words?

One thing I've been wondering. Do you think Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh are surprised by the reaction this is getting? Frankly, none of them have ever seemed like the sharpest knives in the drawer, and I think they all legitimately believe their Gothard-dictated philosophy of life. So I could really see them sitting around thinking "well, this was a long time ago, and Josh confessed and apologized, and the girls and Jesus have forgiven him, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about." It's scary to think about, because all this public outcry won't make a bit of difference inside that family unless they are self-aware enough to reflect on the fact that maybe the public reaction is a sign that their beliefs and behavior are pretty warped. And I don't think those three smug jerks are capable of reaching that conclusion.

I hope that this will still trigger some outside scrutiny from the police or CPS. But my hopes for internal change have pretty much faded away.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I think it's highly likely that a lawyer had a hand in how the whole thing was worded, which is why it reads as an admission that isn't actually admitting to anything.

Oh yeah. I'm sure he had a lawyer help him write that statement, and probably a PR team to boot.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I don't know why it took so long but it finally came to me why I am so against placing even the majority of the blame on JB, Michelle, or the kids' "sexually repressed" (or whatever you want to call it) upbringing. I think their upbringing has been horrible and the "parents" did not do anywhere near enough to protect their daughters or other girls in their home, but I have to place the blame squarely on Josh. Why? Because otherwise I have to believe that all the other boys in that household who are/will be/have been raised the same way have also been raised to become incestuous child molesters, or that it's both expected and excused that they'll molest the girls. Please note I'm not speculating that other boys or girls are involved, just saying that I think there is something more wrong with Josh and how he treated his sisters beyond just his upbringing.

In criminal justice there's a theory called "the perfect storm" theory that is sometimes used to explain why crimes occur. The idea is that there's often a confluence of factors behind a criminal event. In the case of child abuse, for example, a certain number of people with unfettered access to young children wouldn't molest them, because they don't have that predisposition. And a certain number of people do have that predisposition won't molest children because they don't have unfettered access. But when you combine the predisposition with unfettered access, then you have a "perfect storm" and you enter a situation in which molestation is more likely to occur. This is a really simplistic example, but it's an interesting theory and one that has always made a lot of sense to me.

Edited to remove speculation.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

A lot of states are changing their laws, and at least from a civil perspective, many jurisdictions do not start the statute of limitations until after the victim has turned 18.  I know people hate lawsuits, but I personally think it would be a great thing if people started suing their molesters once they became adults.  So many of these cases are handled like this, or the victim is threatened as a child and never tells anyone.  

 

Fuck all the adults in this situation.  They took something that belonged to the victims - justice - and ripped it away from then to protect their image and reputation.  The people in law enforcement who dealt with this need to be publicly named and shamed.  Those people are there to protect the girls, not the parents and Josh.  They are clearly unprofessional and not fit for their jobs and so they really need to be named and fired.

The state trooper who initally was consulted clearly did not handle this appropriately at all, but since he was subsequently sent to prison for years for child pornography I think the ship has probably sailed on naming and firing him. To be fair, there is no indication that the subsequent, official investigation by the police was anything other than thorough. The detective interviewed the whole family, wrote a detailed report, and forwarded it with recommendations for charges. It's not his/her fault that the statute of limitations had run. It's not the DA's office's fault either. It sucks, and I wish it had been different, but we can't always blame law enforcement for the fact that sometimes justice isn't done.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Stop the freight train...the post still up.

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything. I didn't see it when I clicked the link.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

It's still there. She didn't write anything, but she posted a link to Huck's supporting statement.

Well, her son is unemployed and dependent on Duggar charity for his livelihood. It was probably a little too much to expect that she would publicly claim to be shocked, horrified and unsupportive.

[19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate]

I would've voted for the possum.

I would have *campaigned* for the possum.

Our slogan would have been "this possum ain't playing."

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Here's what the police report says about it: http://imgur.com/a/zqPMi#10

"The father said that he went to a state trooper and reported this, but no report was ever filed. The caller says that the father knew this trooper before hand, but they do not know hot [sic] well."

Ok. I looked at the police report and Jim Bob did say that he and the church elders took Josh to the troopers, but that he had a personal relationship with the trooper beforehand and the trooper told him no official action was necessary. If that's true, and he did intend this as an official report, that's a little better than I initally thought, I guess.

Still, it took him over a year and multiple allegations to "report" Josh. IMO, that's still pretty culpable.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

If we're to believe the reported stories, that's not the case. If we're to believe the reported stories, JB and the elders took Josh to a Statie, a year after the offenses, and the Statie said there would be follow up, but there never was, and the Duggars didn't mind that (which I can understand). The problem is, the Statie never followed up, and then later was convicted and sentenced 55 years for child porn. In the meantime, the statue of limitations ran out.

I haven't seen any stories that indicate that the State Trooper said there would be follow-up or that the report was an official one. Everything I have seen indicates that the selected trooper had a personal relationship with Jim Bob and did nothing beyond lecture Josh. Source? I'm not being confrontational; if I'm wrong about this I would like to know.

ETA: In the police report, Jim Bob claims that he took Josh to the troopers officially but the trooper with whom he spoke (who was a personal acquaintance) told them that he didn't need to file an offical report. If this is true, then it puts things in a different light. Jim Bob is still a terrible father, but he's maybe not quite as bad as I initally concluded.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

My understanding is that JB didn't take Josh to the authorities until they had already been alerted to it. They spoke to Josh and the family but couldn't press charges because the statute of limitations had expired. JB didn't "turn Josh in" in some kind of sacrificial way as originally reported.

My understanding of the timeline is that Jim Bob didn't take Josh to the authorities. He took him to a state trooper who was a personal friend and asked him to give Josh a stern talking-to. No official report was made by the Duggars, ever. In 2006, two years after the alleged incidents, a letter describing the abuse was given to Oprah's staff in advance of an interview she was scheduled to conduct with the family. Her staff reported it to Arkansas authorities and they contacted the Duggars, not the other way around. In fact, at first Jim Bob tried to get Josh a lawyer and told the Arkansas police that he would not allow Josh to be interviewed.

So neither Jim Bob nor Michelle ever "turned him in." That's revisionist history by Duggar apologists.

I have been operating under the assumption that Anna didn't know the whole story when she married Josh. He told her something, obviously, but I really doubt it was "I molested five underage girls." I just can't see her continuing with the courtship and marriage under those circumstances. Given her beliefs and the practical implications of being an undereducated single parent of 4, now that they are married, she's kind of stuck, I think.

ETA: Apparently Jim Bob claims that the visit to the trooper was "official" and that the trooper was the one who decided not to pursue it. Given the rest of Jim Bob's actions, I'm not sure I believe a word of this, but even assuming it to be true he and Michelle never followed up to file an official report.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I wrote a LONG post about this and of course my computer deleted it or lost it or something.  I just don't see it the way many of you do.  I feel compassion for every member of that family.  I believe JB and Michelle raised their children in the way they thought was best, whether we agree with that or not.  I can't imagine taking my 14 year old son to the police station to report this behavior, not knowing what the consequences might be (even if they waited).  I'm not worried about their financial future.  They are a wealthy family.  I know I cannot explain my compassion to the satisfaction of most posters here, but I think this will bring their family closer (yes, closer).  And I still think this is a tragedy for every member.  As I said before I cannot be gleeful about all this. I can't say they deserve it.  I just can't even though I have basically disagreed with many of their child rearing methods.  I hope that their faith will sustain them through all of this.  Just my opinion.

I respect your right to have your own views on this. I would say, though, that I think it's inaccurate to assume that all or even most of us who are decrying Jim Bob and Michelle's parenting are gleeful about this. I feel absolutely sick about it, as I feel absolutely sick about every incident of child abuse of which I am made aware. I have no glee in my heart, and I'm certainly not saying anyone deserves it. I would have liked nothing more than for Jim Bob and Michelle to be the loving parents they portrayed themselves as and for all of their children to have grown up happy, loved, and safe. But that doesn't seem to have been the reality of the situation, and I lay a lot of the blame for that fact at their door. I have noticed very little gloating in this thread, actually, for which I am thankful. I think most of us are just concerned about the kids.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Yes it is... horrible.

 

I couldn't stop thinking about these poor girls when I was trying to sleep last night and something else occurred to me. We talked a bit yesterday about whether this was it or just the tip of the iceberg.  I'm convinced personally that there was probably more to it for a number of reasons - the escalation, the amount of time between incidents, etc.  But then it also struck me, in reading the police report it basically reads as though there was one incident per girl who was touched.  I don't believe that for a second.

I'm not speculating about this situation in particular because I have no way of knowing what happened beyond what the police report said. But I do have some experience and training in this area more generally, and what I have observed is that when families recognize that outright denial of abuse isn't going to fly (because admissions have been made, injuries are observable, or some action has already been taken) they coach children to minimize. Several incidents become one incident, a beating becomes a spanking, ongoing fear of the offender is denied, etc.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I've been trying to process my thoughts about this and ugh. It's just such a huge mess.

*Note: the musings below are my response to the situation in general, and not to anything I've read on this board or any posters here.*

For the victims, this has to be terrible. Being a victim of sexual abuse is nothing to be ashamed of, and I feel that the victims should absolutely have the right to make abuse public if they choose. But they didn't choose this. They went to bed one night and then woke up the next morning to learn that the entire world now knows the worst thing that ever happened to them. Complete strangers are demanding or hoping that they process their feelings in the public eye. These girls are victims. They don't owe us their tears or anger or a tell-all book. They need to deal with this in the way that works best for them. I really hope that they are given the opportunity for private, professional counseling to help them work through everything that has happened to them. I hope all the kids are given the opportunity for counseling, and I don't mean 45 minutes on a very special episode of Dr. Phil.

No sympathy whatsoever for Jim Bob and Michelle. None. In my opinion, they lost the right to any sympathy when they swept Josh's actions under the rug years ago. At this point, I think the best thing that could happen to the remaining children in that house is significant CPS involvement in their lives. Jim Bob and Michelle need to be told to cut out the oversexualized behavior in front of the kids, for a start. They also need to be told that as the parents, they need to parent the kids and stop relying on the older girls to do it for them. Their "homeschooling" should be scrutinized and if it's educationally inadequate, the kids need to be placed in public school. The older kids should have their options for higher education or trade school explained to them. Now that the TLC gravy train is coming to an end, Jim Bob and Michelle also need to be questioned about how they intend to provide for the children remaining at home.

Josh needs to undergo a formal risk assessment and appropriate, professional counseling. Like, yesterday.

Anna... talk about a rock and a hard place. Having to choose between staying married to Josh and leaving him, with four young kids and no real skills to support them with, has got to be hard. She needs to prepare herself for the possiblity that his "apology" and her pious stand by your man statement aren't going to be sufficient to satisfy CPS, and that she might need to make some really tough choices really soon.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I think Josh absolutely would have negotiated a severance package with the FRC, and it definitely would be kept private.  Everyone associated with the FRC would want their connection with Josh to be severed as quickly and 'quietly' as possible.  Meaning, they don't want him to wait around to be fired for a violation of some moral misconduct code.  The FRC is a hate organization.  They have to be able to spin this a certain way if they want to continue remaining valid in the bigot circles.  Providing a severance is a teeny tiny price to pay to have it spun the way that works best for them. I mean, just look at the way the FRC responded to Josh's resignation.  They aren't at all condemning what Josh did, even though their entire mission revolves around labeling the LGBT community as dangerous perverts.  

 

Besides, the average FRC donor is the sort who is going around saying that Josh is forgiven because Jesus Christ requires no personal responsibility.  These aren't the sort of people bothered by what Josh did because PRAYER! and GOD! and JESUS!

You might be right. I don't think the FRC needed to care about keeping this quiet, though. In fact, it might have been better for them if they had fired Josh and unequivocally stated that it was because of the abuse allegations. What is he going to do, sue them for wrongful termination? I doubt it. Honestly, negotiating severance only works if you have a position from which to negotiate. Josh didn't.

I'm no expert on the FRC, thank God, but I don't think their *average* donor is a Josh apologist. Some probably are, and those that are could be expected to be vocal, but in my experience even extreme Christian conservatives abhor sexual abuse of minors. Just because someone is hateful about gays or abortion doesn't mean they think it's okay to molest kids.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Very true re Josh and finances -- I didn't even think about severance. It's quite likely that FRC approached him with -- resign now and issue a statement re your resignation and we will pay you with full benefits for the next 6 months. Something like that carries him through the end of 2015 -- which is a LONG time. Frankly he can re-appear in DC when the press dies down in another week or two, bring JD and a few other brothers, wrap up his home and drive his stuff back to Arkansas -- and live for the rest of the yr on his DC salary while in Arkansas -- which means he actually ends up saving money, since everything in Arkansas is cheaper than DC. During this time, he no doubt calls himself a "political consultant" -- whether anyone wants anything to do with him or not -- while scratching his head and figuring out whether there are any career options for him outside of what daddy dearest can create, and if there aren't -- viola-- by the time the severance runs out, there's a new used car lot or tree service or something that's up and running.

Eh, I don't know. I'm not sure the FRC would pay severance in this situation. If he had driven drunk or screwed an intern I could see them offering the "leave quietly and we'll make it worth your while" deal, but he allegedly committed multiple counts of child sexual abuse. That's a henious crime that nobody outside the extreme fundie circles is going to forgive. I doubt your rank and file FRC donor would approve of their money continuing to pay his salary for the next several months. He had to go regardless of severance pay, and if he has two brain cells to rub together he knew that.

I also wonder how feasible it is for Jim Bob to set him up in a new business given all this bad publicity. It's not like the good people of Arkansas have a shortage of places that will sell them a used car or trim their trees.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I don't even want to think about someone as young as JoyAnna going through that

-------

People used to talk on TWoP about how miserable Joy looked all of the time. I imagine this was why.

I don't want to think about any of these girls going through that. Given Jim Bob and Michelle's messed-up value system, I can't imagine any of them got any real counseling or therapy after it happened. Even if they weren't actively blamed by their parents, they were probably pressured to "forgive" Josh like "good Christian girls" are supposed to and suppress their feelings for the sake of family unity. It's a tough, tough lesson when your parents aren't willing to protect you from harm. It's even tougher when you have nobody else -- family, friends, or teachers -- to turn to. I really hope that somewhere tonight someone sits down with these girls and tells them that this wasn't their fault and offers them real help.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

RE: cancellations

 

TLC learned a lot after everything went down with Honey Boo Boo and her family.  They still may be in litigation with Mama June over what she felt was breach of contract (there was bad blood on both sides, honestly).  Considering Jim Bob Duggar, LLC probably had a more favorable contract and the fact that TLC should have known about the allegations, TLC has to be very careful not to find themselves in breach of contract.  If Josh & Anna do have a separate contract, it will probably help keep the main show afloat because they can cut them off easily.

 

What I suspect is that they will rework the schedule to start up when with new, fresh episodes in October/November when Jessa is due to give birth.  There may even be episodes dealing with the aftershocks that rumble throughout the summer focusing on the welfare of the girls and the remaining children.

 

As it currently stands, there's not really any way for Jim Bob and Michelle to face charges over this.  A good enough lawyer would argue that the case doesn't fall under failure to report child abuse laws.  The spanking with a rod leaves no marks, so they wouldn't face physical abuse charges.  Josh was never charged or indicted or found guilty in the court system, so it's not a crime to have him around the girls.

 

Now I am interested to see if CPS investigates and mandates that the minor children must go to some schooling outside of the house.  I know it's something that they can require if they feel the in-home homeschooling environment is dangerous.

Not necessarily true. If Jim Bob and Michelle knew Josh had sexually molested his sisters and took no action, that would fit most statutory definitions of child neglect. An indictment, charge, or conviction isn't required. Do I think they'll be criminally charged? No. I do think there could be CPS repurcussions, though, especially with all the coverage this is getting.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I never said he wasn't. After all, he was 14/15. He should have known better.

 

But at the same time, I'm confused. Because unless I missed something, there was no indication that he did it as a power play or to intentionally hurt anyone. I'm not saying it was right or trying to excuse it, but there's a big difference between a teenager inappropriately expressing sexual curiosities as a result of their repressed upbringing and someone molesting girls as a way to assert power and dominance.

 

This situation is awful and I feel most for the girls that were involved and Josh's family (Anna and the Ms) for the shitstorm that it's going to bring them. But part of me can't help but think that Josh is a victim too - he's a victim of the way his parents raised him in a situation where he could think that what he did was remotely appropriate. That doesn't excuse what he did and there should be/should have been consequences, but I do think it makes it make more sense. I truly don't think he's this unstoppable, awful monster so much as he's a product of bad parenting and the cult that his parents ascribe to.

I would be more inclined to ascribe Josh's behavior to warped curiosity if it had been a one-time thing with someone who was close to him in age. That wouldn't have been okay by any stretch of the imagination, but it would have been explicable, especially given his background. But assuming the info in the police report is true, it was several girls, one of whom was young enough that she was sitting on his lap while he read her a story. I'm not sure that's as easy to explain away as just curiosity run amok. There's a pretty big chasm between experimenting sexually with an age peer (even a sibling) and touching the genitals of a young child while she sits in your lap for storytime.

I'm not saying Josh is a pedophile or is still an offender risk. I'm not qualified to make those determinations, nor are any of us based on the information that we have. I also think there's plenty of blame to go around here, and that Jim Bob and Michelle are certainly deserving of a fair amount of it for creating the messed-up world in which these kids live. But I'm not sure I'm ready to conclude that Josh is a "victim" in this scenario.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

Clarify this for me if I'm wrong -- Jim Bob did try to report the crimes but they happened to get police officer who was secretly downloading child porn. This officer then let Joshua go with a warning.... The family then moves on and one of the victims writes a letter and hides it. The letter was found in a book over 3 years later and by the time the new investigation started, the statute of limitations had expired and nothing could be done?

My understanding is that the trooper was a friend, and that Jim Bob's "report" was not an official report but a request that he talk to Josh. If Jim Bob had wanted to report this offically to the police, it would have been handled much differently.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

If Anna leaves josh he will likely get unsupervised visitation rights of not full custody. It's unfortunately better if she doesn't leave.

Unsupervised visitation, possibly. There's not a chance in hell he'd get full custody with an admitted history of child sexual abuse. No judge in the world is going to sign up for that kind of bad publicity.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

I am just sick to my stomach.  I feel very sorry for Josh and Anna and his victims. He was 14 - a young teenage boy. Sure what he did was offensive, however I blame the parents. Here is a young boy - hormones raging and they have no outlet - no sports to compete in, no friends outside the family to hang out with and no other adults who are in in their lives to talk stuff out with. It's a family that once the kids are finished being babies they are passed around to the others to raise. The fault for this lays at the feet of the parents. I'm a Christian and I don't believe we should bash each other. The girls, and Josh and Anna are reliving a nightmare because of poor choices Jim Bob and Michelle have made. I wish Josh and Anna nothing but the best. They and his victims are the ones who need our prayers right now.

This is really offensive to me. I can see having sympathy for Anna, and certainly for the victims. But Josh did something terrible, and deserves to pay the consequences. We aren't talking about a situation where a naive kid played doctor with a slightly younger girl. Josh abused five girls, at least one of whom was apparently significantly younger than he was, over the course of months and at 14 was certainly old enough to know that doing that was not okay regardless of how messed up his family background may have been.

[Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events]

If the Duggars think that their biggest potential problem is being dropped by TLC, they should really think again. The statute of limitations may have passed for criminal charges, but Child Protective Services could still take action. There are still minor girls in both Jim Bob and Michelle's home and Josh and Anna's home. I'm not sure to what extent CPS was involved back in 2006, but Josh's ongoing access to minors and public admission of the truth of the allegations is enough to allow them to reinvestigate now to ensure he doesn't still present a risk to anybody, especially if the publicity triggers any fresh complaints.

Note that I'm not saying I necessarily think Josh is still a risk to abuse anybody. The point is that he was never formally evaluated or counseled, so nobody really knows whether he still presents a risk or not. And even if he doesn't, Jim Bob and Michelle's failure to report him or seek treatment for him for three years, during which time he continued to have access to minor girls, almost certainly meets the definition of criminal neglect.

This whole situation disgusts me. Jim Bob and Michelle are terrible, terrible parents. They had an obligation to their daughters once they found out about this situation, and they totally blew it.