[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

I think the song was perfect choice ... their relationship was toxic and the sex scene was apocalyptically bad because they bestie was breaking his heart looking through the window (The bloopers show that it was indeed apocalyptically bad because Stephen either dropped KC or they both fell on the ground while filming) so I say that the song went quite well with that scene.

Majorly creepy

 

It was a perfect choice for how I (and many people) viewed their relationship, but at the time I thought they were still trying to 'sell' the idea of L/O being soulmates forever in love and that's why it felt weird. The song didn't add up to what the EP's had been repeating which was L/O were the big love story. I never did understand it.

 

But yeah, I agree it went well with how I view them as a pairing. 

[Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.]

What's great about Comic Con is that I can have all sorts of conversations with fellow Arrow fans that I can't in real life.  The one thing that everyone agreed on was a general dislike of Laurel and how the character was written and portrayed.  But, being Comic Con, a lot of these same people wouldn't entertain the idea of Sara being the Black Canary long term on the grounds that Laurel had the name.  I pointed out that Laurel doesn't even go by Dinah (and Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics still goes by Dinah) and that the show can easily make Sara's middle name Dinah if that's all they require but I got a fair amount of blank stares, as if such a notion never occurred to them.  I have a girlfriend from high school who works at one of the booths in the Exhibit Hall and her boss and I ended up in a serious conversation about Arrow and Laurel.  Like so many on these forums, he said that he'd gladly dispense with comics canon and replace Laurel with Sara since it's been almost fifty episodes and he still doesn't understand what she (Laurel) contributes to the story.  He said that Laurel being the designated Damsel in Distress was the only consistent thing about her characterization and he just couldn't imagine a believable way for her to end up as the Black Canary with or without Sara.  I couldn't agree more.

 

Laurel is the weakest link and it's a shame because I think a lot of people wanted to root for her. Even with L/O backstory we were set up to be on her side but the way KC played it was kind of too abrasive? I know her character is supposed to be a do-gooder and an amazing lawyer but I never really saw those things either. There was definitely something lacking in her performance and I think this, coupled with her lack of chemistry with SA, contributed to her character kind of being pushed to the side. 

 

My main concern right now is how she's going to transition to BC because I don't understand how they'll make that work unless someone dies. But as someone pointed out to me earlier, they could have given her that motivation with Tommy's death but chose a path of addiction instead. I'm willing to see what they're going to do but I'm also aware that it has been 46 episodes and they have not sold me on her character at all. What's going to change here?

[Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.]

Not a lot of people have been talking about the introduction of

Ted Grant

in terms of how it would affect Laurel... IDK if that's a good thing or a bad thing? I'm actually trying to keep an open mind when it comes to her. While I'm not optimistic about her being written well, I'm going to try not to be too critical when it comes to Laurel. 

 

I think that it'll be interesting to see her growth this season. The writers are notorious for bringing up the sordid past (what with Oliver sleeping with Isabel, Thea having a crush on Tommy, and supposedly having two terrorist attacks in two years etc.), but I wonder if they will somehow try to forget/retcon Laurel in order to make her into a stronger and likable character? From what I've heard about Laurel wondering whether she's her sister or someone else, I'm not too hopeful. 

 

But I'm glad that she'll finally get in on the action (even if it's in sort of a round about way). Right now it's important for the writers to ease her into the arrowverse instead of just plopping her in there trying to make it as natural as possible. Hopefully we see a more competent lawyer in Laurel and a less self-centered, self-important, egotistical one. Now I don't expect her to be as good as Alicia Florrick from The Good Wife, but I do expect her to be at least stable and professional. 

 

Other than that, as much as I've been whinging about KC working out, it's been nice to see that she's been dedicated at the gym. I just hope she puts that much work in all aspects of Laurel and makes her likable this season. I guess only time will tell if I come to like her or not. 

 

I'm not exactly hopeful about it but I want to be. I do think letting go of L/O as a romantic pairing will make her more likeable because the reasoning behind that relationship made no sense after what Oliver did to her. It would be nice if we could see Laurel realize that and finally move on from relationships that were holding her back. I want to see that strength and growth if we have to see her become BC. Maybe the introduction of

Ted Grant

will bring out a lighter and more relatable side to her?

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

They kept dropping little bombs in flashbacks about the Sara/Laurel relationship, like Sara saying she wanted Oliver first and Laurel torpedoed her chances. She said something like... Oliver didn't know Laurel as well as he thought he did? Something like that. Then Sara tried to wake Laurel up from her Oliver delusions and Laurel got defensive. With all of these things, I was interested in the sister relationship. I thought we'd see more, but it ultimately went nowhere. Basically, that information seems to have been used to help us forgive Sara for her past wrongs. Having Laurel apologize to Sara and (ugh) support her relationship with Oliver was more of the same. The writers were unraveling the L/O love story and Laurel's character at the same time though. I just can't figure out if that was deliberate or an unintended consequence.

I also got the feeling that the Sara/Oliver relationship was about more than comfort sex. Oliver has been weirdly intense in his various relationships, aside from Isabel. The thing that confuses me is S1 Oliver suffered from PTSD. He still does though perhaps not to the same degree since they're showing him progressing as a character. And I actually have experience with being in a relationship with someone who has PTSD. During the 7 years I dated my ex-fiance, he was deployed 3 times. He was a captain at the time (later a major) and his job was EOD (basically like The Hurt Locker.) So this thing where Oliver compartmentalizes his feelings and puts people in boxes to protect himself? I totally understand that because I lived it and it's ultimately why I broke my engagement even though my fiancé was a very good man. He had trouble opening up and allowing me to connect with him emotionally, which goes along with PTSD. But then with Helena and McKenna and Sara, Oliver seems to have been looking for a deeper connection and that doesn't fit with my experiences with a man who has PTSD at all. It doesn't fit the playboy image. I don't know how to fit Laurel into that either because their end of S1 sex lunge seemed OOC for Laurel and was over before it even started. It also wasn't very romantic since Tommy was watching. I don't remember mood music and mood lighting like we got with Helena.

Felicity fits into a lot of boxes besides romantic partner, so I can see him having trouble reconciling his feelings with the their mission and her place on the team. The blow ups when compartmentalizing fails? That's consistent with Oliver having PTSD and I guess I can explain his intense reactions to things involving Felicity by saying his feelings were stronger than he realized. But I still feel that Oliver is too damaged to make a relationship work with anyone right now, so I'd need to see some emotional healing and growth for his character first.

 

Yeah, I was surprised by the Sara/Laurel flashbacks because it felt like they were trying to make the audience more sympathetic towards Sara by making her something other than the girl who slept with her sister's boyfriend. I can see why they'd want to do that to make Sara more palatable but in doing so this had a negative knock-on effect on Laurel, which is the last thing her character needed. I think a simple present-day conversation and apology would have served just as well rather than sullying their characters and relationship even further so I don't understand the writing there either. The only thing I can think is it really was to sink the L/O 'ship' for good but as I've said before, that really didn't need help. 

 

I agree that Oliver seems intensely attached to the women he sleeps with. I never really saw Oliver/Sara as more than comfort sex during s2 though. I do think he had feelings for Sara but I don't think he was in love with her at all. It didn't read that way to me. I saw it as more of a fondness for something they used to have. I think they turned to each other at a time of need and fell into a relationship because it was easy and comfortable and those were both things they needed at that point in time. Yeah it was messed up because they were hurting people in the process and I would have preferred if it had just been a one time thing that they both agreed was a mistake but again, I don't understand the writing there. I never read any of their interactions as romantic.

 

I agree that Oliver isn't exactly ready for a romantic relationship with Felicity yet but I can see him making progress with that this season. I liked the part in the trailer where he was willingly opening up to Felicity about not being on the island the whole five years which is huge progress if you compare the similar conversation he had on a date with McKenna in s1. So I think the love is there, the want and desire to share his life is all there but he has some ways to go before he gets it right. I guess that's what s3 is all about. 

I felt so freaking justified in my gratuitous hatred for Imagine Dragons at that moment, it was awesome. It was like a culmination of all things I hated suddenly put together in a super creepy sex scene that had a dude watching from the other side of the street.  Also, every time I remember that scene I get creeped out again, because I imagine rando passers-by seeing into Laurel's bedroom. BUY SOME CURTAINS, LAUREL.

 

Radioactive was such a weird song to put on a love scene though that it didn't feel like this was a love scene I should have been waiting for. It felt wrong, which it was because Tommy was watching and Oliver was being the worst kind of friend ever. Don't they sing something about an apocalypse?!!! Weird song choice IMO.

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

You guys talking about Sara/Oliver waking up in the clock tower makes me realize how much I blanked on a quite a few of the mid-season episodes. They weren't very memorable. Maybe because so much time was focused on the Lance's and I generally prefer Team Arrow above anything else. 

 

Still, to keep this post on topic, I did like Sara and Laurel's little talk at the end of the season but it still wasn't enough for me. They have so much bad history to talk about that a few words here and there doesn't even begin to cover it.

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

I think it's looking likely that something happens to Sin because she's the only connection between Sara and Roy I can think of. Roy might feel guilty for pulling her into his mess and Sara will feel guilty for not being able to protect her when she promised her father she would. 

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

And yet they had that exact same set up with Tommy's death at the end of S1 and didn't go there so why would/should they go there with Sara?  Instead they brought in Sara as The Canary, gave her 20+ episodes of backstory and tied her directly to the Big Bad of S3 just to sacrifice her character for Laurel?  

 

I know. She easily had the motivation there. Count me in as one of those confused as to why they had her fall into addiction instead. I maybe could have got on board with Laurel as BC if she had started her journey there - with reason and motivation and maybe a little hate fuelling both. But after Sara came in as Canary and had a great backstory, I just don't see how they're going to do it. So I'm concerned too. That was my point. If they don't kill off Sara, nothing is going to convince me about Laurel being BC. I just don't get it. 

[Spoiler Discussion Thread]

Do you think it possible that Sara might die this season? I can't think of any other reason why they haven't included her as a regular, after being in 20/23 episodes last season, but they included John Barrowman as a regular. 

 

I think she might because I can't see any other motivation for Laurel to become BC. Right now it feels shoehorned and forced and I can't make sense of it. Sara's death would give her motivation for revenge which could eventually turn into justice.

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

For me it just made Sara and Oliver seem like insensitive douches. Then the dinner compounded that. I didn't particularly see why they stayed together, but that bothered me less when it made me look at Oliver differently. His horrible hypocritical "speech" to Laurel in the hallway had me cringing because he said stuff like "I've loved you for half of my life". I'm kinda like damn was THAT love? No one sort of went Oliver is that a good idea? But I'm guessing it's because they needed that confrontation so everyone was silent about the debacle.

I'd have preferred Sara going to Laurel because blood is thicker than water. But hey, they had to tank Oliver/Laurel so they did. Spectacularly.

 

Yeah, they did look like insensitive douches. I agree. Even more so after going to that Lance family dinner. WTH was that?!! I actually felt sorry for Laurel then which is an achievement in itself! But I just saw it as the characters being human and making human mistakes. They both got wrapped up in their own selfish need for a while and didn't think about the consequences.  

 

And also like you said, it succeeded in sinking Laurel/Oliver, even though I didn't think any extra help was needed there!

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

I agree with the posts here - I am sick of all the bashing of Olicity shippers. Sure, every fandom has a subset of fans that are more vocal (and more crazy) than the rest but I don't see what's wrong with being excited about what you love. Half the time I see Olicity fans screaming about how much they love them, I just laugh. It's funny. 

 

The thing is though, there will always be haters and they seem to get louder when something grows in popularity, which is what has happened with Olicity. I think people sort of tolerated it before because Olicity never seemed like a real threat but now it has been confirmed as happening, well, the noise from the haters is obvious and a little predictable. 

 

I was surprised that Caity Lotz received hate after Sara hooked up with Oliver. Why? It's obvious that relationship was going nowhere. It just seemed like O/S were jumping back into an old pattern where they needed comfort and they got that from each other. It was never written as some big love story. Really people need to start reading between the lines!

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

Hi! First time poster here! So I've just been quietly reading everyone's thoughts on Oliver and Felicity's upcoming date and declaration of feelings and was quite surprised that some feel like their 'I love you' isn't earned. I disagree.

 

One of the things I've loved about the O/F relationship is how it's progressed organically and we've been allowed to see them evolve moment to moment from their very first meeting. That was already a plus against O/L where we were just told that they used to date and were in love or whatever. Besides their lack of chemistry and toxic backstory (cheating and sister swapping = super gross) I feel this where O/L really failed to get more of a following because as viewers we weren't shown their relationship. We were just told about it. That NEVER works on TV. 

 

But with Olicity, we've seen them meet and earn each other's trust. We've seen their friendship go from strength to strength. In many ways, Felicity has been the backbone to Oliver's journey to becoming a hero. She was the one who said he could do real good in the city. She was the one who told him he could find another way. She was even willing to sacrifice herself just so Oliver didn't have to kill on her behalf. Aside from Digg, Felicity was the one who believed in him and gave him support in times of need. For a long time, Felicity was the only woman Oliver could truly be himself around. 

 

Now when I look back on the collective of these moments, I see a love story. No, there was no explicit moment where they realized they had feelings and I don't think you can really pinpoint the exact moment where those feelings started to deepen, but that's what has been so amazing to watch. I don't need it spelled out for me, like O/L's 'love' was so many times. The best thing about Olicity is that we never needed telling. It was just always there.