S01.E08: They Keep Killing Suzie

[indeed]

Using the Resurrection Gauntlet that former Torchwood member Suzie Costello originally had, the team are able to bring a number of murder victims back to life. However, these all have a link with the now-deceased Suzie, and the group have no choice but to bring her back. After the process goes wrong, and permanently keeps her alive, Suzie manipulates the naïve Gwen into taking her to see her father.

Swanson: Are you always this dressy for a murder investigation?

Captain Jack Harkness: What, you'd rather me naked?

Swanson: God help me, the stories are true.

...

Despite the Special Gwen-ness all over this episode, there are still enough good parts for me to like it. And how am I ever to look at a stopwatch in the same innocent way again? That alone makes this a memorable episode. LOL

"Death by Torchwood." Yeah, that happens a lot.

[itsmeyousee]

Special Gwen -ness indeed Indeed LOL It made no sense on Suzies part, why would Suzie have any Gwen "specialness" ? She meet her twice , one were Jack was retconning Gwen so it didn't matter. The second because Gwen broke through the retcon and was an obstacle but never part of her plan or anything. But in this it was like Suzie knew ahead of time, did she timetravel while she was dead ?

 

But i did like this ep , and i compltely agreed with Owen shock horror of it LOL I would want Suzie on my Team nut job that she was, she was smart. She preplanned a way to come back if she was caught or killed and screw over TW so they couldn't catch her. And a major plus of this ep was Dectective Swanson, i loved her and wished we saw more of her. I believed this chick was a copper unlike Gwen.

 

Loved Ianto ,well naturally i did LOL but loved how he quietly sat there and fixed the phone so they could communicate with the outside world, also Jack when he realised he had no idea who to call LOL. Plus Ianto naming of things and Jack referring to it in the nightclub aside from the chat downstairs also the humour with the stopwatch and Ianto says Suzie was still alive despite the knife in her. I just really liked the Ianto/Jack connection in this ep.

 

What i also thought was interssting was Tosh and Owens reaction to Suzie, aside from being freaked out they were mad at her for doing what she did when she was alive. Also the thought that they didn't know her.

 

But one of the strangest things was the Glove itself. I know they were going for "Gwen is so special" and that's why no one else at TW could use it but did they writers realise that Suzie was an expert at it at the same time, so Suzie was also "special" meaning if your are "special" you are going to turn into a serial killing nutter ? LOL i don't think that's what i meant to think but judging Gwens behavoiur in the previous eps yes i could see her own "specialness" making her that, certainly came close of couple of times in future eps LOL

[Swansong]

I want to like this episode because I love the idea behind it, that death is so terrifying to Suzie she comes up with a way to try and cheat death. S1 gets a lot of flak, but ,in a way, it is probably the most potentially interesting Torchwood ever really gets for me because I love a lot if the ideas they try to explore and even some of the character moments they raise and yet. 

 

But the things I love first. Kathy Swanson. Maybe it's the writing or probably the acting, but she's probably one of my favourite guest characters on this show. I think she'd have made a good recurring character and a nice foil for Jack and Torchwood. I love the conversation Suzie and Gwen have about death in the car and I really like the moment Gwen realises Suzie has tricked her. I like the sense we get of Suzie's isolation and disconnection from the world and the rest of the team. This is obviously a recurring theme in this season. Not to mention the sense that despite being a really small team Jack really doesn't seem all that aware of the people working around him. This is one of those things that crops up, but never feels really explored which I think is a shame. I really like the stopwatch scene even though I feel I shouldn't because, seriously, this show and build up, especially with this relationship is pretty, laughably terrible.I'd forgive them because it's the first season, but it's always pretty terrible even past s1 so I don't. But the actors sell it. Honestly, I give the actors a ton of credit, because the writing barely gives them anything to work with and I get the impression the direction didn't give them much guidance either.  Also there's something creepy about propositioning someone while you're standing over the corpse of a dead colleague. Plus a stopwatch as a sex toy? And yet I believe this scene. Even the venue makes a kind of weird character sense.  I also enjoy, the unintentionally funny moment, of Gwen collapsing after she uses the glove on Suzie and Jack rushes over to her, but instead of comforting her like you'd expect he just picks up the glove and leaves her. Like dude, seriously? I tend to believe that when Owen seems like more of a gentleman than you do you're doing it wrong. lol. And Ianto is smart in pretty much all the ways I like about him. He's practical and observant and he loves to give the objects odd rhyming names.

 

Things I don't love. I agree the 'Gwen is oh so special' hard sell is just on overdrive in this episode to the point that I can't tell if Suzie (and the show) are taking the piss or not. Suzie barely met her twice before she died, but of course she just knows that Gwen is so beloved and brilliant and that she, Suzie, is just so inadequate in comparison. So I guess the trend is if you're not instantly in love with or attracted to Gwen then, no matter how supposedly brilliant you supposedly prove yourself you be, you must somehow feel jealous or inadequate in comparison to her. I mean Suzie's infatuation with Gwen is so strong that she can't even escape properly because she can't bear to leave her on the dock and leg it until its too late. Bear in mind this is a woman who murders people just so she can try out a glove on them, murders Jack without pausing for breath and sets up the murders of yet more innocent people as part of her cheat death contingency plan. Which brings me to Suzie. She just seems so whiny and self-pitying that by the end of the episode I feel kind of over her which makes me sad. Maybe it's because I just can't ever take seriously her whining about Gwen being so much better than her. I mean in the humanity and likability stakes, yeah, because at least Gwen's not apparently a serial killer. But  PC Gwen's not even astute enough to consider a person who casually murders people for their own ends might not be above a bit of emotional manipulation and blackmail for their own ends either. Or that maybe if someone is unintentionally brought back from the dead it might be wise to at least try and figure out how that happened and/or mitigate any potential consequences, whether to them or other people before you unleash them on the world. Suzie came up with a plan to cheat death. Which brings me to Suzie's plan to cheat death.

 

Torchwood villains love their convoluted plans, but even by Torchwood standards Suzie's plan is overly complicated and it makes her actions in the pilot make even less sense. But the thing that makes me head desk is that the show goes out of its way to establish that no-one on the team can work the glove prior to Gwen which gives her plan one very fundamental flaw. So we're supposed to believe that she considers everything except the most important part. How she actually gets brought back.

 

I get that Jack likely doesn't understand the meaning of empathy, but the show apparently doesn't either. Because I'm pretty sure empathy isn't murdering people just to test a piece of tech on them. But I'm also pretty sure it's not bringing people back from the dead to experience the worst moment of their lives all over again just so your lazy arse doesn't have to do proper police legwork. Whatever the glove works on I doubt very much its empathy. If anything a fundamental selfishness seems to be at play in all three instances it's used.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

I think Dead Suzie timetravelled Swansong LOL, otherwise there is no other explanation of her "Gwen specialness" so she would know that Gwen could control the "Glove". But that still leaves the question about will Gwen end up like Suzie since they were the only two that could control that Glove, luckily for the others LOL. Jack does a great job with the second Glove so no empathy needed for that one.

 

I agree the ideas in the eps are great and it's the balance that's wrong, particularly with the character of Gwen at least for me. I guess Gwen fans would love it but even they would question some of the situations like why does a dead Suzie who meet twice Gwen think so much about her, it's weird LOL

 

I didn't go into the famous "stopwatch" scene cause i like the whole Ianto/Jack relationship in this ep. There is a growing closeness to them that's been happening since Cyberwoman . Admitedly in tiny background steps but it's there and i think this ep really shows that aside from "let's have sex" aspect LOL. Which the actors have to take credit for completely, it's an odd convo considering the situation but they make it believable.

[Swansong]

 

I think Dead Suzie timetravelled Swansong LOL, otherwise there is no other explanation of her "Gwen specialness" so she would know that Gwen could control the "Glove". But that still leaves the question about will Gwen end up like Suzie since they were the only two that could control that Glove, luckily for the others LOL. Jack does a great job with the second Glove so no empathy needed for that one.

Obviously there is life after death and apparently Suzie spent it haunting the Hub so she could spy on Gwen and bask in her amazingness.

 

They did destroy the glove so it was unlikely she'd have the chance to take Suzie's route and it's also not clear whether the glove made Suzie psychotic or whether Suzie was already a psychopath and the glove just enhanced that. Although Gwen does seem to become pretty obsessive on the power of it pretty quickly. 

 

 

I didn't go into the famous "stopwatch" scene cause i like the whole Ianto/Jack relationship in this ep. There is a growing closeness to them that's been happening since Cyberwoman . Admitedly in tiny background steps but it's there and i think this ep really shows that aside from "let's have sex" aspect LOL. Which the actors have to take credit for completely, it's an odd convo considering the situation but they make it believable.

 

In this episode I totally buy there's something going on between them and I agree there seems to be a growing closeness there. But I think the previous episodes suggest all isn't necessarily well, but that kind of gets dropped and suddenly they're having sex. This show is weird in that they manufacture drama between characters that doesn't necessarily make sense for those characters just so they'll be drama in the episode, but ignore the tensions and dramas they've already set up.

[itsmeyousee]

 

 

In this episode I totally buy there's something going on between them and I agree there seems to be a growing closeness there. But I think the previous episodes suggest all isn't necessarily well, but that kind of gets dropped and suddenly they're having sex. This show is weird in that they manufacture drama between characters that doesn't necessarily make sense for those characters just so they'll be drama in the episode, but ignore the tensions and dramas they've already set up.

I think the "offer" is a surprise especially judging by Jack's expression even if it is a welcomed one. It's more that the rebuilding of trust has happened and it seems more personal between them. Even if Jack still hasn't realised just how clever Ianto is, going by the phone moment but at the same time Jack is enjoying getting to know Ianto and that's the difference. It doesn't seem superficial anymore, like behind the scenes these two guys are getting to know each other properly with ups and downs to be certain but it's different now.

 

And this part might sound weird but Ianto being the one to "offer" i think shows more about who he is. He isn't some wallflower, hdidng in the background anymore.  He is trying to take control of his life again, whether that is good or a bad thing , somtimes it's both but it's Ianto choice.

[Swansong]

Heh! I'm sure the sex proposition was a surprise. Did Jack even know he was being propositioned at first?

 

It's more that the rebuilding of trust has happened and it seems more personal between them.

 

I think the previous episodes show the opposite of that. Jack is never really shown dealing with the issues happening with his team even though it is clear there are serious issues and Ianto is shown as apparently not willing to live and let live about Lisa and then is shown clearly still grieving her. But then in this episode everything is ok? When is the trust-building supposed to have happened? When does Ianto get over thinking his team mates can't be bothered to remember Lisa anymore? As you say all the stuff that should come in between happens off camera or I'm assuming doesn't actually happen at all.

[itsmeyousee]

Heh! I'm sure the sex proposition was a surprise. Did Jack even know he was being propositioned at first?

 

I think the previous episodes show the opposite of that. Jack is never really shown dealing with the issues happening with his team even though it is clear there are serious issues and Ianto is shown as apparently not willing to live and let live about Lisa and then is shown clearly still grieving her. But then in this episode everything is ok? When is the trust-building supposed to have happened? When does Ianto get over thinking his team mates can't be bothered to remember Lisa anymore? As you say all the stuff that should come in between happens off camera or I'm assuming doesn't actually happen at all.

Jack did look slightly unclear then very happy, so maybe not at first LOL

 

I don't think Jack or Ianto talked about Lisa, that wouldn't ring true for either of them. And Ianto wasn't pissed at all of them in Countrycide just Gwen, cause he says very clearly to her "you forgot" then everyone is uncomfortable but it's to Gwen. But Jack and Ianto had to talk about whether he still had a job or not and restrictions on that etc. But i think that little bit in SW "Funny weather patterns" is Jack trying to show Ianto it's ok and i'm trusting you. Also in GBG it's ianto that Jack is trusting to take down Tosh's report, not himself and to me that says a lot about Jack but also his relationship with Ianto and Tosh for that matter. When what they have told us or shown us so far is that should have been Gwen or Jack with Tosh.

 

But i agree with you that Jack isn't an issue type of talker, he is a let's forget about it but don't do it again type, which doesn't always work admittedly LOL. But for all of Jack's bravdo , i don't think he is comfortable as a leader when it's quiet. He is good mostly in the action but in the office not so good really. I wonder if Suzie used help Jack more or something. I have always wondered why she was Jack's second ? Was she sorta like Ianto as Jack's right hand man so to speak  or was it more or different ? Jacks'reaction at the end starting from the "love moment" with Gwen and the song, he just looks tired like he doesn't want to deal with this shit. And i'm not sure he is going to visit Suzie cause to me  he seems like he wants to talk to Ianto, it's easy and who would of imagined that.. I doubt either one of them, then Ianto takes it's up a notch LOL

[indeed]

And what a notch that is! LOL

You reminded me...that song has to be one of the most awkwardly placed songs ever. So does not fit the moment IMO and since it's still playing as Jack leaves Gwen/the main Hub to go find Ianto (IIRC) I can assume it's really meant for them. LOL

Edited June 23, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

Lol! I thought I was the only person who thought that. Jack's expression doesn't match the emotion of the music at all. He seems annoyed and unimpressed and then he just walks off. Maybe the show was going for irony. 

[itsmeyousee]

I watched it last night, mainly for the song cause there is a line that meant to be important except the meaning ? confusing to say the least LOL

 

It's " i have finally found the one, i have been waiting for" and Gwen is all big puppy dog eyes, so she is doing her part (if it's about Jack and Gwen) but Jack no. No puppy dog eyes, He just looks tired and fed up and really doesn't want to deal with Gwen or the team, he just doesn't want to be there. I don't know if they told JB a different line in the song or they didn't know what song at the time but they filmed it, edited it, so JB must have had the look they wanted for Jack. But Jack is relieved when he goes downstairs and finds Ianto and talks to Ianto , there is a big sigh from JB. Like it's is all too much for Jack right now but he can relax with Ianto.So who is "the one Jack's been looking for" if we are going by the song ? To me it's Ianto but i don't think it's my bias for Ianto either, cause it all comes from Jack.

 

But starngely what i did forgot, it's all because of Gwen. She wants to use the Glove and she wants to kill Suzie with the Knife. Not very empathetic at all, so maybe she would turn out just like Suzie ?

[itsmeyousee]

Not actually about the ep but a book/audio book they did called Long Time Dead. It's about Suzie and explains in more detail about what she did in order to come back. It's set after COE so while the Old Team is mentioned, they aren't in Cardiff anymore, well the ones still alive that is.

 

But it does go into what happened with the Hub and delves into Retcon in a very interesting  way. It also goes into the famous "darkness" . To me it's one of the best books cause it actually seems like TW unlike most of the others.

[Swansong]

That im is interesting and kinda fun. It's a bit sad, though, that they seem to have more meaningful and insightful conversations in a throwaway web extra than they ever seemed to be allowed to on the actual show.

[itsmeyousee]

That im is interesting and kinda fun. It's a bit sad, though, that they seem to have more meaningful and insightful conversations in a throwaway web extra than they ever seemed to be allowed to on the actual show.

What's the interesting web extra part for this ep Swansong ? I can't see any.

[Swansong]

It was a transcript of an im between Jack and Ianto discussing their stopwatch rendezvous and then they talk about the glove possibly being used to bring Lisa back and why Ianto doesn't ask. But I guess it got taken down for copyright infringement. 

[Dizzy76]

Since the official web sites no longer carry old Torchwood extras, the posts I made may show back up but it's being discussed I believe.  Probably not though.

 

However, someone found a LiveJournal account where someone else made posts for all the extras.  Here is the link for this episode.

 

http://iantos-desktop.livejournal.com/3060.html

 

The IM conversation is the very last thing.

[itsmeyousee]

Thank you. That was an interesting convo, if Lisa was to be brought up again i would have thought it would be in Adrift and Flat Holm. Somewhere that ianto could have taken her to care for her.

[Chip]

Yeah, I took it down because it might be an infringement of copyright to host it on this forum. Since Dizzy76 found another site with the same content, I suggested linking there.

[indeed]

I don't know...Jack really took a chance that the Lisa talk wouldn't kill the mood and totally ruin sexy stopwatch fun times with Ianto. Good thing Ianto was really looking forward to it...

[Swansong]

Lol! True, but at least it's sort of sweet that at least for a little bit Ianto's emotional well being seems to trump sex.

[itsmeyousee]

Referring back to your "spoiler" Swansong in the SW topic, cause i haven't figured out how to do that yet LOL

 

It's so weird that Gwen is the gung - ho one to use the Glove instead of investigating, i mean she was the PC shouldn't this be right up her alley, why she joined the Police to start with LOL

 

But also the other 3 just sit there moaning about Suzie cause she put them into lock down " No tech, we can't do anything" LOL And Ianto gets a phone working LOL

 

I must admit i do love that scene when Jack can now call someone but they have no -one to call, then Swanson has everyone around her desk listening as Jack asks for help LOL

Edited July 25, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Swansong]

To spoiler something just click on the spoiler icon ( circle with the slash through it) and just type in the box that comes up.

 

This is another one of those situations where we're supposed to think there's nothing else to do, but this one thing i.e use the glove. But what about forensics, cctv, talking to neighbours, investigating the victim and all known associates? You know all the stuff actual police officers might do. They don't even attempt to do any of that before resorting to the glove. Mostly because they're damn lazy. Even after they don't get much from the victims it's still not a consideration. It does kind of make having a police officer on your team a bit redundant. It's pretty much as you say if they can't rely on their tech they tend to be pretty stumped. 

 

I love that scene with Swanson too. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

I think I would be ok with the team's lack of actual investigating and total reliance on tech if the point of bringing Gwen on was to help out with that.  I mean, I could buy that working for Torchwood as long as they have (especially Jack), they have forgotten that they can solve mysteries the old school way.  I mean, just thinking about how we as normal people rely on computers and the internet to do tons of things that we use to do without them - how we rely on the new technology so much - that when the computers/phones breakdown or the internet is down, we freak out.  Even though we got along just fine without them a few decades ago.

 

In that same way, I could see how working for Torchwood could give you that mindset.  But GWEN...Gwen should not be responding in that way already.  Gwen with her police background should be the first one to suggest all those things that you mentioned Swansong.  Why didn't the writers use her in that way.  I think I would have seen much more value in her character and why they felt the need to use her in every scene if she actually contributed to the team in that way.

[Swansong]

The plot obviously relies on them using the glove, but I've noticed on this re-watch beyond showing that she's 'curious' being a police officer rarely seems to inform her character much. It just seems to be mostly a hook which is kind of a pity. Somebody had a scan of an interview they did just before Torchwood started and they had a segment where they talked about the teams roles and skills and with everyone else it was doctor, receptionist, tech, but when it came to Gwen they had for skills 'the heart'.lol

It's interesting how quickly she goes from you must care about the victims to apparently not caring about bringing them back to relive the worst moment of their lives because the tech will make solving the crime easier for her. I'd say it's an interesting character moment, but since the episode thinks its highlighting how empathetic she is that's obviously not intentional.

Speaking of the lockdown and an over-reliance on tech. Torchwood are really bad at contingency planning. In Cyberwoman all their weapons are essentially locked down when they're trapped in the base with Lisa and it's just luck Jack happens to have that gadget Tosh uses to get out. And again here they're basically rendered useless because the base goes into lock down. Shouldn't they have some sort of plan for when that happens so they're not completely vulnerable? lol

Edited July 25, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Unfortunately in this ep Dizzy it's Gwen that's pushing from the get go, to use the alien tech. Jack and Owen don't want to and Jack makes them start investigating first but then as the norm in TW Gwen gets her own way and it all goes to crap.

 

Not sure the writers got the meaning of emapthy correct Swansong LOL In the Oxford Dictionary there is something called "usage" to show how people use the word and this is what is says about empathy and i think that's the problem with what Gwen does and what they say about Gwen.

 

"People often confuse the words empathy and sympathy. Empathy means the abilty to understand and share feelings of another. Where as Sympathy means feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune."

 

Understanding and sharing the feelings doesn't mean you give a toss, just look at Suzie and for only Suzie and Gwen to have the abliity to use the Glove may Gwen isn't meant to give a toss either LOL I mean she was not just gung - ho about the Glove but also Jack killing Suzie again with the knife. Maybe all the rest of the team have too much sympathy for people to use the Glove properly LOL It's certainly puts a different spin on this ep