Boom Boom Extra Canon In The Room

[itsmeyousee]

I just thought i would add this since we have chatted in  character different topics about either the Radio Plays or Novels or Audio Books or Graphic Novels or Captains Blog. And since RTD said it was all canon for Torchwood , might as well included it.

 

My favs are ::

 

Deadline for the Radio Plays

 

In The Shadows and The Sin Eaters for Audio Book only

 

Consequences for the Novels

[indeed]

I like the radio plays and the Captain's Blogs. Couldn't be bothered with the rest (although I did buy GDL's one and only--such a shame; he could read the phone book and I'd listen--voiced audio book, The Sin Eaters...not bad). Not a fan of Asylum (boring) and The Devil and Miss Carew or whatever it's called, but I wish they would do more. Captain's Blogs I would love to be really canon, but they pretty much wiped them from existence.

If everything is canon then that S2 BBC recruiting game is, too. I guess that was one if Ianto's "special projects"...

[itsmeyousee]

This is just my opinion and i haven't read anything to say this happened. But there was a change In the Novels , which seemed at first your normal bog standard merchandise. And they started to tie back into eps or they included the timeline on the show and maybe  that's when RTD decided that they were all canon, I don't know. And then there was the Audio Books that weren't novels read by the actors but stories you can't buy as novels and i think it's the COE box set that has an excerpt from In The Shadows on it.

 

And i know that JB and his sister wanted to set their book in a different time, when i don't know but with Ianto alive unsure about Owen and Tosh but they were told it had to be set after MD, so that MD had happened, so for that to happened i'm guessing they are meant to be stories in between the TV show.

 

I listened to one book set after COE and that was the Suzie one which does go right into TKKS and what her actually plan was. And while i haven't read the others i think the Gwen one is supposed to explain why her and Rhys are in hiding at the beginning of MD, cause i have no idea why ? LOL

[Dizzy76]

Well, I'm sure it's not a surprise to anyone here that I love all the web.  I enjoyed some of the radio plays as well although I wasn't able to get my hands on all of them.  I haven't bothered to buy any of the novels because from what I had heard, they were kind of hit or miss and the continuity with the show was lax as opposed to the other extra stuff.  I have managed to read bits and pieces of some of the novels when people have posted them and read discussions about them.  There are definitely moments that I have read (or read about) that I found interesting or good.  If there was some way I could get the novels for free I would give them a read.  At least the better written ones.

[itsmeyousee]

I don't know about finding the novels for free, but i also suck at the internet LOL So if they are out there you might be able to find them Dizzy. But i agree about the novels they are a bit and miss especially the first ones, they do get better. My fav Consequences is a series of 5 short stories which probably makes it an easier read to be honest but there is a link between the stories and one of those stories is how Gwen became the Boss while Jack was gone and it made sense, shock horror LOL

 

I can't judge any of the later ones after COE since i've only listened to the Suzie on, mainly cause Suzie has always interested me but as a story i really liked it. Not only did it go into what Suzie plan was and what she thought about the Team etc but the what happens in it is very chilling and i would have loved to have seen that as an ep

 

But the first 3 novels and the later ones set after COE are all available as Audio books as well, if that appeals to you at all.

 

Plus there is the 6 Audio Books that you can't buy as a novels and like Indeed GDL could read me a phone book and i would be happy LOL but i also liked the story of Sin Eaters and it had quite insightful character moments i thought. GDL does the best voices though and does a great Jack and even the best Ianto LOL He changes his voice slightly so you can hear the difference between Ianto talking and GDL.. EM actual does a good Ianto as well . Ianto seems to be the hardest voice to do, believe it or not NM and BG really suck at Ianto LOL

[Dizzy76]

My fav Consequences is a series of 5 short stories which probably makes it an easier read to be honest but there is a link between the stories and one of those stories is how Gwen became the Boss while Jack was gone and it made sense, shock horror LOL

 

I remember seeing people talk a bit about the Gwen becoming boss section!  I remember thinking it was nice that they were at least attempting to explain that nonsense.  I didn't know that it was a book of 5 short stories though.

[Swansong]

I've read three of the books. The Risk Assessment, In the Silence or Into the silence (the one where Ianto has to stand around singing or something) and The Undertaker's Gift where the writer has a real hard-on for Gwen's brown eyes and where Jack spends the first half of the book wanting to prove he can do things on his on, but later just has to drag a sick and dying Ianto off his sick bed to go rescue Gwen. Didn't really care for any of them and these are supposedly the best of the books so I gave up on the rest.

 

The Radioplays are ok. They're probably the only things in the additional material I'd treat as canon outside of the show if pushed.

 

I find the web stuff fun, but they're just as sloppy with that as they are with the show no surprise. Like the web stuff Dizzy put up. We're supposed to believe that Jack did a psych eval on his team and still thought it was a good idea to hire these people? lol. Or that Jack did an extensive background search on Ianto, but Ianto apparently forgot all about this or still feels he can lie about what his dad does? And there's that letter that Jack wrote from Lahore about the fairies killing all those soldiers which is dated long before the actual incident happened. I enjoy reading the im's between the team though. Makes me wish we'd seen more of that dynamic on the show.

[Dizzy76]

As I mention in the other thread, I don't know if Jack did background checks on the people he planned to hire but I do believe that background checks were done for those people who made him suspicious or that he thought might cause a problem in the future.  And I still believe that Jack looked into Ianto and because he was from Torchwood One, was able to find a lot of info.  And just because COE changed things with Ianto's character in order to make him seem like a lying liar who lies doesn't change things for me.  If they had done a better setup for that before COE, then maybe I wouldn't have such a hard time swallowing it.  Honestly, I think they just forgot that they had written that Jack did a background check on him or just...didn't care.  Ianto just needed to be a liar because they obviously remembered that he told Jack his father was a master tailor but then had Ianto screaming that he told Jack everything.  Lying his face of till the very end.

 

OK, I got off track there.  Basically what I see as a problem across all the canon (whether extra or not) is that there was a huge lack of honoring those things that came before what was being put out.  When there is no set universe bible, there's no need to double check little things that may contradict something that was mentioned or established before.  No one is forced to check.  I'm not going to completely discount something though because of it.  I'd feel differently about that if the show had managed to have better continuity from episode to episode, series to series.  So now, I just look at the big picture and then take those bits of canon that make the most sense and works within what I see as that big picture.  Non-working moments from the show of course are harder to disregard so I find myself filling in gaps with personal headcanon when needed.  Aaannnnndddd, that brings me back to COE, lol.  And MD of course.

[itsmeyousee]

I remember seeing people talk a bit about the Gwen becoming boss section!  I remember thinking it was nice that they were at least attempting to explain that nonsense.  I didn't know that it was a book of 5 short stories though.

The 1st story is one about a case in the past with Jack, 2nd is how Gwen became the leader while Jack was gone, 3rd after EW so how TW are going without Tosh and Owen, 4th one continues on the next day from the 3rd story and if you love protective Ianto , you will love this and the 5th one explains how they all tie together, while referencing other moments from earlier novels. So the middle lot of novels started this connection thing, which was just before and during the Audio books, so that's what made me wonder if they were trying more for gap fillings between Seasons rather than just merchandise.

 

I've read three of the books. The Risk Assessment, In the Silence or Into the silence (the one where Ianto has to stand around singing or something) and The Undertaker's Gift where the writer has a real hard-on for Gwen's brown eyes and where Jack spends the first half of the book wanting to prove he can do things on his on, but later just has to drag a sick and dying Ianto off his sick bed to go rescue Gwen. Didn't really care for any of them and these are supposedly the best of the books so I gave up on the rest

I think a Gwen fan might have recommended those novels Swansong  I don't think you could have gotten more Gwen the hero books if you tried LOL

[Swansong]

 

I think a Gwen fan might have recommended those novels Swansong  I don't think you could have gotten more Gwen the hero books if you tried LOL

 

Maybe. lol. Is In the Silence the one where Gwen surpasses Tosh as a techno wiz? I thought the show was over the top when it came to her, but the books, at least the ones I read, make the show seem almost restrained which is saying something, but Ianto fans seem to love them too, especially how his relationship with Jack is portrayed in them which I find pretty puzzling because in Risk Assessment especially he is basically there to be insulted by the guest character and treated like the village idiot by the text. And every time Jack said something which I guess was supposed to come off as affectionate I kept imagining Jack patting him on the head and say 'there's a good dog'. I wanted to start a drinking game every time the author of The Undertaker Gift mentioned Jack looking into Gwen's big brown eyes, but I thought I'd save my liver the strain. It was like bad fanfic. The core plots were ok, but not enough to make me want to spend 300+ pages with them especially when the Torchwood stuff made me cringe so much. At least they were free, but I think I'd rather read fanfic. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Yes, it's Into The Silence , Gwen the computer whiz . I couldn't stop laughing, even the show wasn't that bad. There was a bit i remember in MD when Jack questioned if Gwen knew what she was doing on the computer LOL. It was when she was turned into Ianto and all of a sudden she was feeding the gang and doing computer work.

 

As for Ianto being Jack's prize for want of a better word in Risk Assessment , everyone seems to spot that they are together in the books just by looking at Ianto. Like he has a tattoo on his head property of CJH LOL

 

And i hated the Undertakers gift, it was the Meat ep for a whole book

[itsmeyousee]

Dizzy the basic premise of Twilight Streets is that there is this area that Jack can't enter and he been trying all the time he has been in Cardiff. He takes a couple days off cause he gets sick every time he tries. So this time he tells the team he is taking the holidays, Ianto works out why, it then becomes something that the whole team is involved in.

 

But at the time of the convo, they have worked out that Bilis is involved and he has Tosh, Ianto and Gwen are going to a particular house that they know Bilis was involved with hoping to find Tosh. Jack is reading up on what ianto has found and Owen is trying to find a solution for Jack so he can go into this area. Ianto and Gwen are driving there , it's a "haunted house" Ianto is asking whether or not Gwen believes in ghosts, cause he doesn't but for some reason he can't stop Ianto is scared crapless to go there.. As they park then walk towards it Gwen notices a furniture store and starts thinking about Rhys and his like of Swedish furniture but not ABBA. Guys who like ABBA don't fancy Gwen, hence the convo

 

It's just odd LOL, Cause while reading it i'm like what about Tosh, why is Ianto so scared and is Gwen truly that bad of a cliche, really. It's just quite a WTF moment LOL

[Dizzy76]

Hahaha!  Yeah, from what you are describing, it does see like a really weird moment to stick in that conversation.  When I heard/read about the conversation, it wasn't in context so I just thought that it must have happened in a different kind of circumstance. 

 

Actually, I didn't even know what time period the book was written for.  For some reason, I got it in my head that it was after Owen and Tosh were gone.  Don't really know why I thought that...

[Swansong]

 

As they park then walk towards it Gwen notices a furniture store and starts thinking about Rhys and his like of Swedish furniture but not ABBA. Guys who like ABBA don't fancy Gwen, hence the convo

This isn't a guys who like ABBA must be gay, so that explains why they don't fancy Gwen because they must be gay type of talk, is it? I'd like to think even the Torchwood books wouldn't be that lame to suggest that the only reason a guy couldn't possibly fancy Gwen is because they're gay. And worst have her be the one to suggest it. lol!

[Dizzy76]

OMG, I didn't even pick up on that Swansong!  I wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what Gwen was implying.  Good gracious!

Edited August 8, 2014 by Dizzy76

[indeed]

Yeah, that popped into my head, too. That's a weird conversation anyway. 'Jack, Jack, Jack, but we're not talking about Jack!'

[itsmeyousee]

This isn't a guys who like ABBA must be gay, so that explains why they don't fancy Gwen because they must be gay type of talk, is it? I'd like to think even the Torchwood books wouldn't be that lame to suggest that the only reason a guy couldn't possibly fancy Gwen is because they're gay. And worst have her be the one to suggest it. lol!

Yes it is Swansong LOL Which is why Ianto asks if this is a Jack convo.

 

Dizzy it's set in Season 2

 

Novels set in Season 1 ( * means Audio book as well)

 

Another Life *

Border Princes *

Slow Decay *

 

Season Two

Something In The Water

Trace Memory

Twilight Streets

Pack Animals

Sky Point

 

After Season Two but before COE

Almost perfect

Into The Silence

Bay Of The Dead

The House That Jack Built

Risk Assesment

Undertakers Gift

 

After COE but before MD

First Born *

Long Time Dead *

The Men Who Sold The World *

 

After MD

Exodus Code * ( JB Book)

 

Audio Books Only

Season Two

Hidden

Everyone Says Hello

In The Shadows

 

After Season Two but before COE

The Sin Eaters

Department X

Ghost Train

 

After MD

Army Of One

Fallout

Red Skies

Mr Invincible

 

I forgot my fav book LOL probably cause it isn't set at one time

 

Consequences

1st Story set in 1899 Jack and Emily Holroyd

2nd Story after Season One before Season Two, no Jack

3rd Story after Season Two before COE

4th Story after Season Two before COE ( next day from story 3)

5th Story after Season Two before COE

Edited August 9, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[indeed]

Thanks for posting all of the novels, itsmeyousee!

I would be interested in seeing the book sales. I wonder how well the latest ones have done...

[itsmeyousee]

Thanks ok. When Dizzy mentioned she didn't know when Twilight Streets was set, i thought it might be nice for people to have a reference for when the stories are set.

 

I wouldn't have a clue how to find that type of info though. But review wise, they seem to have less than the older books except the ones about Jack.

[itsmeyousee]

The Owen question came from the novel Another Life which i just listened to. In which Owen is trying to get an ex - girlfriend who he was in Medical School with to join Torchwood.

 

There is nothing in it to suggest that Jack has asked Owen to do this, nor has Owen mentioned this to anyone else. All they know is that he took off for a date and doesn't show up the next day. And this is while they are in the middle of a really bad case. Owen goes to work with her and while trying to impress her at the hospital , he finds who TW are searching for yet he doesn't tell anyone. Instead he uses this situation as some sort of recruitment prize for his ex and of course bad stuff happens.

 

And none of it surprised me. There wasn't the slightest bit shock that Owen was that stupid or selfish or such a total git. Because clearly you wouldn't chuck someone in the middle of bad shit on purpose, especially someone you care about except maybe if you are Owen.

 

It would have been one thing if Megan (that's the ex) had gotten caught in the middle of this but she didn't. The women TW were looking for wasn't even her patient and they only go to see her cause Owen knows TW is looking for her, it's all because of Owen and what he wanted.

[Swansong]

I think Jack and Gwen are also big proponents of the 'going it alone' trope in their own way. I don't think it's a coincidence that the three characters the show focuses most on are. Even when the consequences are terrible, particularly for other people, it's still framed as an attitude to admire and emulate. Is that what happens in this story? 

 

Jack and Gwen would actually show up for work though and not just skive off without explanation in the middle of an investigation. Bad Owen.

[itsmeyousee]

No Owen is just showing off basically.. He is pissed at Jack cause he is stuck in the Hub because of radiation and has to do some work until this "alien sponge" clears him. So he is researching the chick Jack needs to find and that's the only reason he knows about her. Then once clean he buggers off for a date with his ex,even though everyone else is still working, goes with the ex to her work and accidentally finds the chick that Jack is looking for at the hospital, while he is trying to recruit the ex. He has already taken the "deep scan" that they use from the Hub to show off with. Then he believes this chick for some reason offers to help her and takes the ex along for ride, and surprise surprise not, bad shit happens LOL Without at any stage thinking he should call this info in.

 

Owen is the only twat in this book LOL Ianto for the brief moments you have him and it's early Season 1, so same as the show is brilliant. Jack is very believable in this story, he knows whats what and is doing it. Tosh is her normal great self and Gwen is surprising ok. Gwen even gets a real moment of clarity after she has done her "you can't do that Jack" and she realises that she is doing the same thing, it's surprising to say the least LOL

 

But i guess the bigger shock was i wasn't surprised by Owen being that stupid and only thinking about what he wants, not his ex , not the case or the danger. Just more watch what the "Big Man at TW can teach you baby" attitude

[itsmeyousee]

I've been going back and listening/reading some of the older novels and it was Slow Decay last night. There isn't anything about this story to recommend to anyone unless you are really into Gwen and Rhys relationship. There just isn't anything that caught my imagination and BG was the narrator and he is the worse out of the people i have heard, it's all very monotone , just singular. maybe he was directed that way, i don't know but it's good if you can't sleep LOL.

 

The only thing i have discovered in these first 3 books that are set in Season One, there isn't any Gwack or Jack worship of Gwen and that's probably the best thing about them Jack is just the Boss. And he will do what needs doing, no justifying himself , no real Gwen tantrums. There is a slight moment in Another Life but it makes sense and fits when Gwen realising she is doing exactly what she said Jack shouldn't do. It's very refreshing and makes her an easier character to understand. Not that she doesn't have her normal moments (insert eyeroll) LOL but that's ok Owen is equally annoying LOL

 

It's quiet amazing how much that "Gwack " thing really screws with who both Jack and Gwen are supposed to be, when you have something without it to compare with.

[itsmeyousee]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYIliJ4Ze3j0dVIEEMvnAFw

 

I found this site on youtube, you get about 3 mins of each story, so you can hear at least how some of them sound narrating the story,

[itsmeyousee]

I found two transcripts of the Audio Books In The Shadows and The Sin Eaters

 

http://nothing-rhymes-with-ianto.dreamwidth.org/32145.html

In The Shadows

 

http://prothrombintime.livejournal.com/41849.html

The Sin Eaters

 

Both are in 4 parts with the links at the bottom of the page

[itsmeyousee]

Jack and Ianto relationship in the books Dizzy, are all over the place

 

Season One set books nothing to indicate they are together but there isn't any Gwack either.

 

Season Two set books together, sometimes just a small moment, others their relationship is one of the biggest parts of the book

 

After Season Two but before COE from one extreme to the other , yes together, no just a shag, and  a massive Gwack one, Ianto is dying and Jack still picks Gwen

 

After COE , i have only read one, they Suzie one and she refers to Ianto as a loyal puppy dog following Jack

 

After MD no idea, i haven't read any of them

[Swansong]

The way they're relationship (and Ianto) was written in Risk Assessment made me cringe and I think that was supposed to be one of the more positive ones, but there was no suggestion there is anyone else in the relationship. In The Undertaker's Gift Jack is having sex dreams about Gwen and obsessed with her eyes (or maybe that's just the writer) is kind of a dick to Ianto some scenes and, I guess, affectionate in others and the worst employer ever throughout. 'In The Silence' I don't remember all that well, but there's a Detective he has a past relationship with or something (can't remember if it was sexual or just work) and they may have been flirting. Can't remember much about the book to be honest.

[Dizzy76]

Thinking about the books gives me a headache.  I know a bit about some of the books from reading other people's comments and takes on them.  From everything I read, it really does sound like the Gwen/Jack/Ianto dynamics depended on the author and their personal opinions and not on what was actually going on in the show.  I know for a fact that one of the guys who wrote a couple of books really thought that Jack was just settling with Ianto because he really was in love with Gwen.  So you know, it weren't just fans that saw things a bit differently than what was actually played out on the show. 

 

I still find it interesting however that even though the Jack/Ianto relationship was all over the place, you guys are still having a hard time coming up with an instance where Jack did more than just flirt with (or dream about) someone else. 

[indeed]

I thought there were mentions of Jack flirting with or interested in other people in the books, but I'm just going by comments I've seen--I've never read any of the books.

And why would someone like Jack ever settle? Like he would need or want to. Please.

Edited September 4, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

 

I still find it interesting however that even though the Jack/Ianto relationship was all over the place, you guys are still having a hard time coming up with an instance where Jack did more than just flirt with (or dream about) someone else. 

He is Jack so he flirts but it's like on the show, it's not going anywhere. And the couple of times there has been someone from Jack's past, it's more like John Hart was shown. There is acknowledgement but Jack is still with Ianto and doesn't cheat on Ianto as far as i know. There is the book Trace Memory which i started but stopped at the beginning because of Gwen LOL It was just too much Gwen is perfect whenever that was for me and i just went bugger that I can't be bothered LOL. But i will try again with that as i have been going through the older stuff lately.

 

But from what i remember past loves of Jack

 

Trace Memory - but i haven't read that bit yet.but Michael looks like Ianto

Twilight Streets - Idris Hopper, i think Jack might kiss him once for helping , looks like Ianto again. But the book is about Jack and Ianto  without their relationship nothing happens, it's the core of the book

Almost Perfect - Jack in strange sex orgy but Ianto is a chick dating another guy so who the F knows

The House that Jack Built - The past loves are dead who were a couple but the dead are coming back and Jack wants to see the women in the couple but it's more a guilt thing cause Jack was with both of them seperately  and the husband killed the wife. But this one does have Gwen noticing that ianto is in love with Jack and is worried cause Jack doesn't do or can't love and Ianto is just a shag and Ianto agrees , nice to know the closet people to Jack think he is a prick. But Jack is completely with Ianto and drives like a crazy man cause Ianto is in trouble

The Undertakers Gift - It's Gwen so not really past love but true love

 

But that's it as far as i can remember, most of the time if they meet someone from Jack's past they all instantly know that Ianto is with Jack but nothing to say why they all know but they all do. Which suggests to me that Jack has a type and Ianto fits that type, so how does that fit in with the settling that makes no sense for the intergalatic playboy image LOL

Edited September 4, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[indeed]

I'm not all that thrilled that Ianto is just a type, either.

[itsmeyousee]

Neither am i Indeed but i have no idea how people just know but looking at them stand there together LOL and that's mainly what happens as soon as they see Ianto, there is generally a comment to Jack.

 

But doesn't that contradict  that Jack settled for Ianto cause he couldn't or wouldn't have Gwen, if Ianto is already Jack's type. But then again i'm not sure how Tosh's comment about doing anything gorgeous enough works if Jack has a type either LOL

 

So far as i can see Jack's type is nutbags and that doesn't work for Ianto either but maybe could include Gwen and The Doctor LOL Cause sometimes the things they say or do are very WTF.

 

But thinking about all of the books/audio books/radio plays that only 5 out of 29 leaving out the 7 i haven't read and even then it's only 2    where their relationship is shown as crap. Could be 3 since i haven't read Trace Memory  ?   yet..  A bit like Season 2 really when a Gwack moment appears out of nowhere then next ep back to normal                                      

[Dizzy76]

Thanks, Itsmeyousee, for breaking the books down like that.  I know the most about Trace Memory because it has the section where Ianto is watching Bond and Jack is still trying to come up with some acceptable pet name for Ianto and finally calls him Tiger Pants.  For some reason calling Ianto Tiger Pants just tickles me.  Anyway, no clue how it ends but I did know a bit about Jack going back for Michael.

 

Almost Perfect seems like a weird book. I wounder if it could be considered an alternate universe type of novel.  But for some reason I thought there was a part in the book where Jack is telling Gwen that Ianto kisses him to prove that he's him (instead of some strange girl that he now looks like) and Jack thinking that was romantic.  I could be confusing this with some random fanfic that I came across.

 

I read a lot of comments on The House That Jack Built and the conversation between Ianto and Gwen.  Was this a S2 or even post S2 (but before COE) book?  If so, I find it weird that they would show Jack as being concerned and completely with Ianto while Ianto still thinks he's just in it for the shagging.  Before COE, it actually seemed like Ianto was a bit more sure of things. Maybe not sure of what to call what he had but sure enough to know it was more than just sex.  And I thought I remembered that there was a book that came out before this one that had Jack and Ianto going on a date at a fair or something?  Or at least it was talked about that they had a date at a fair/carnival??  If this is true that Ianto thinking Jack just wants sex from him seems kind of backwards.

 

 

I'm not all that thrilled that Ianto is just a type, either.

Well a lot of people are drawn to a certain type of person or are attracted to people who hold certain physical traits so I'm not as bothered by the possibility that Ianto is Jack's type.  I do think that's much better than Ianto is just the guy Jack has settled for.  But as you've pointed out Itsmeyousee, Jack actually having a type goes against Jack being attracted to everyone/every type.  Not having read the books my only (invaluable) guess is that it's lazy writing contributing to people just knowing that Jack is with Ianto.  Maybe it's suppose to be obvious by how they are standing together or something?  Maybe it's the way Jack looks at Ianto (or vise versa).  I have no real clue of course.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Swansong]

 

I'm not all that thrilled that Ianto is just a type, either.

 

In Risk Assessment Agnes just knows Ianto is with Jack, but it's not a because of a he's Jack's type scenario. It's because Agnes apparently can't see Ianto having any worth except as a sex toy for Jack. And apparently neither can the writer. I think being Jack's type is certainly better than the position that book takes.

 

I agree that it's likely just extremely lazy writing than Jack actually having a type. We're obviously supposed to believe that Jack's type extends far and wide. I'm not even sure I agree with Tosh that they have to be gorgeous enough. I assume Ianto's Jack's type because he's breathing and willing.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

I don't mind Ianto fitting a type, but for people to write him off as just a type or just a sex toy...or having Ianto moments taken and used to show Jack's interest in other people (MD I'm looking at you)...well, I prefer other. Probably not lazy writing, but the writers having a different view of Ianto and Jack/Ianto. After all, Ianto wasn't a real character in his own right.

Edited September 5, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

But in Risk Assessment Gwen is perfect cause she is a chick Swansong, not because she is Gwen like normal. And Jack is a scaredy cat yes boy LOL. So it's not just a slam Ianto thing. Agnes is a nutter.

 

Dizzy the bit you are referring to with the nicknames in Trace Memory is right at the start of the book, it's 8pm on a Sunday and Jack is checking out what everyone is doing cause nothing is happening and they are all bored, so he starts sending them home or sending Gwen (cause she has a life unlike the rest of them) and Owen home ( they don't say why Owen is special boy). . And he checks out what Ianto is doing and decides they can all bugger off so Ianto and him can be alone. And that's when they have what is a sweet convo.

 

Almost Perfect is just weird , everyone is weird, Jack Ianto, Rhys, Gwen is the most normal person that's how odd it is. I really didn't like the book but to prove to Jack that ianto is Ianto as a woman, Jack tells Gwen that Ianto kissed him. And Jack is and sometimes they have Jack like this in the books, he is all fangirl LOL starry eyed and gushing while telling Gwen the story.

 

The House That Jack Built is set after Season Two but before COE. And the convo goes basically like this. Ianto is watching Jack race up the stairs to try and see this dead chick, while they are stuck in this house that is trying to kill them and Ianto has to figure out how to them get out despite being injured. Gwen sees Ianto face as Jack buggers off and basically feels sorry for Ianto. Saying you know what Jack is like, he is never going to feel like that about you and Ianto says he knows but it's his own fault for falling for Jack and please don't say anything. Then Ianto says something sarcastic (which he does throughout the book) and Gwen questions why he is like that and he says that's all he has left. It's a very sad look at ianto really.

 

But Jack doesn't do or say anything to make us think Ianto is just a shag in the book. If anything it's very clear that they are together and Jack is very happy with that.

 

The book that has the date is Pack Animals which is set in Season 2 but it's a stake out and date at the same time at the Zoo. They are even holding hands as they check out the Zoo

[indeed]

Saying you know what Jack is like, he is never going to feel like that about you

And Gwen knows? Hardly an expert on Jack...

Yeah, I'll stick to the radio plays.

Edited September 5, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

 

But in Risk Assessment Gwen is perfect cause she is a chick Swansong, not because she is Gwen like normal. And Jack is a scaredy cat yes boy LOL. So it's not just a slam Ianto thing. Agnes is a nutter.

Agnes is more than a bit of a nutter, but the way the writer writes Ianto doesn't really convince me it's just about her point of view.

 

Saying you know what Jack is like, he is never going to feel like that about you and Ianto says he knows but it's his own fault for falling for Jack and please don't say anything. Then Ianto says something sarcastic (which he does throughout the book) and Gwen questions why he is like that and he says that's all he has left. It's a very sad look at ianto really.

Gwen is really good at making people feel good about themselves. lol. Is this the book with Bilis or is that another one?

Edited September 5, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

And Gwen knows? Hardly an expert on Jack...

Yeah, I'll stick to the radio plays.

It's Gwen, she is an expert on everything except how to get them out of the House , no - one bothers to ask her what they should do LOL  A frozen concussed Ianto is who they need LOL

 

Do you mean it's the writers POV Swansong ? Cause it's not anyone else's in the book that i can remember. Jack is the one that has me going huh ?

[Swansong]

 

Do you mean it's the writers POV Swansong ? Cause it's not anyone else's in the book that i can remember. Jack is the one that has me going huh ?

I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was since his characterization is basically there to be the butt of Agnes derogatory comments and damsel in distress. Jack at least gets to be useful in the end and from what I remember he's the only one who doesn't fall over her every word she says.

[itsmeyousee]

Very true, but who was Jack at the beginning , i think they were both the extras in a Gwen story to be honest. She was SuperGwen that we see in MD but Agnes already thought that just by seeing that a chick was there. So Gwen walked on water before she did anything

 

 

Sorry i didn't see the other question Swansong it was just blank when i replied before. Bilis is in Twliight Streets.

Edited September 5, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Swansong]

 

Very true, but who was Jack at the beginning , i think they were both the extras in a Gwen story to be honest. She was SuperGwen that we see in MD but Agnes already thought that just by seeing that a chick was there. So Gwen walked on water before she did anything

Yes, but to be honest I don't think that's the case just to show how crazy Agnes is either because that's a pretty common occurrence on the show and I guess the extras too. Gwen is often treated as special and amazing whether she actually does something to warrant the tag or not. So while Agnes is indeed nuts I suspect even if she wasn't we'd still get the same rhetoric.

 

 

Bilis is in Twliight Streets.

Thanks. Do they incorporate any other guest characters from the shows into the books besides Suzie and Bilis/

Edited September 5, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Andy is in quite a few of them. Detective Swanson is in the 3rd and 4th stories in the Consequences book and it's all about Jack and Emily Holroyd in the 1st story in that book. I don't know about the ones after COE and MD aside from the Suzie one that has Andy and the policeman from Into The Silence book. There is other characters introduced in one book and showing up in another like the policeman but that's all i can think of from the show. But Trace Memory might have more cause the Michael dude pops up in all of their past . From what i have heard elsewhere we meet Ianto at TW1, Tosh in Japan , Gwen''s first day as PC , Owen studying to be a Doctor and Jack back in TW3 in the 60's

[indeed]

Idris Hopper pops up in a book--I'm assuming that's the Doctor Who character that makes an appearance (I read a short review of the books that didn't mention who the DW character was).

[itsmeyousee]

Ok i finally read Trace Memory it's set in Season 2, there is constant references to Gwen and Rhys getting married but Owen isn't dead yet. But it feels like Jack has been back for a while so i would guess around but before TTLM mainly cause it's a bout book time travel and Tommy isn't mentioned but who knows. It's an ok book but it did have some very interesting moments in it.

 

To clear up probably the most talked about part when Ianto tells Jack he can go to Michael cause he doesn't own Jack. Jack holds Ianto hand and tells him the story of Michael and his past. This has two other moments that come from that, one Ianto again tells Jack that he can go to Michael but this time he is thinking about Lisa and all the people that he lost at TW1 and feels Michael needs someone and Jack needs to do it, so it's nice, it's a caring moment between them. The second moment was quite a shock really after Jack leaves Gwen comes in to Jack's office to find out what Ianto knows really and realises that Ianto has replaced her. That Jack will now turn to Ianto when he opens up. But it's not a bad jealous moment, more a sad one with Gwen wondering how close Jack and her are now since he got back, he's different, they are different.

 

The other a to me the most interesting thing bit in the whole book is when this Michael guy is in their pasts. Tosh as a child in Japan, Owen as a Doctor working, Gwen's first day partnered with Andy , Jack in 1965 a very lonely isolated Jack and Ianto in his 2nd week at TW1 and he meet Lisa during his 1st week. Which is very different from the Radio Play Submission. But the Ianto one really struck me for two things really, one how he joins TW, just going for a normal administrative job, no idea about anything he is joining except he had to sign the Secrets Act just for being interviewed. But more importantly he doesn't meet Michael, Ianto is the only one who doesn't recognise Michael. Ianto remembers the TW3 guy that came down from Cardiff cause Michael got trapped in TW1 and I wondered why the author has made Ianto so different from the others.

[indeed]

Jack in 1965 a very lonely isolated Jack

A Jack who could hand over a bunch of orphans?

Ianto remembers the TW3 guy that came down from Cardiff

Who is that supposed to be?

The second moment was quite a shock really after Jack leaves Gwen comes in to Jack's office to find out what Ianto knows really and realises that Ianto has replaced her. That Jack will now turn to Ianto when he opens up. But it's not a bad jealous moment, more a sad one with Gwen wondering how close Jack and her are now since he got back, he's different, they are different.

That might have been nice to include in the show, but no.

[itsmeyousee]

A Jack who could hand over a bunch of orphans?

 

Coming close to this deadness inside him. And i wondered if that's where they picked the year from ? Michael asks about Jack's friends and Jack replies he doesn't have any, just associates. He has given up on having friends , having a life, he is surprised in himself that he even cares about Michael's plight. It's like Jack is waiting to stop feeling after everything he has already been through, he just wants to be callous and uncaring like people who have had too many traumas. I think he wants to be  like Owen I would guess, he wants that shell.

 

Who is that supposed to be?

 

No one we know. They know that Michael mentioned these two guys names and as they are all remembering when they have meet Michael, Ianto goes to the computer and brings this Agent up as who he had meet as an older guy but not the other guy. And then we get Ianto's story. I guess cause Michael is moving around in time, it's like a puzzle putting all the pieces together. But only Jack , Ianto and Tosh stories actually have any bearing on what's happening.

 

 

That might have been nice to include in the show, but no.

Well i was shocked LOL But not just the Ianto bit, that Gwen has realised that Jack changed while he was gone. I don't think anyone every brought that up did they ?

[Dizzy76]

Wow, this is all very interesting!  It would have been great to see some of this played out on screen but I still find it nice that this books seems to work the way I think all the extra content/canon should work.   Something that can slot into the show without conflicting timelines (though I guess it conflicts with other extra stuff), give some additional info that enhances what you already saw on the show, and occasionally give special clues about what you could possibly see or hear about in future episodes.  It sounds like this book may be the best example of how the novels would work within those parameters.

 

I know there are some fans who don't count anything outside of a show's aired episodes as canon.  I am not one of those people.  Confession time: I am a special/extra features whore and 9 times out of 10, a DVD with bonus content becomes my favorite reason for buying the DVD.  I love watching something (be it movie or TV show) and then finding out that it's website has interactive things for me to further immerse myself into its universe.  I gobble up any deleted scene and if the only reason why it was deleted was because of time or because it messed up the flow of the show, I have no problem adding that deleted scene into canon.

 

I think what TPTB did with extra content for Torchwood was a wonderful idea in concept.  Not only could the novels bring them extra money but along with the radio plays, audio books, and web content, it could have been a great way to keep fans hooked and interested during show breaks.  And someone like me, who love extra things, would have gobbled up any opportunity to learn more about my favorite characters and play web games that helped me feel like I was apart of the story somehow.  Extra content could have been a way to get more in depth with character background or simply tell the stories they didn't have the time or budget to tell on the actual show.

 

Sadly, the concept was much much better than the execution.  For all the reasons that we've discussed throughout our conversations, TPTB failed to enhance with their extras because there was too much contradiction.  As I say over an over like a broken record, if RTD had seen the importance of making sure that all writers and creators were on the same page and following a show bible, Torchwood as a whole would have greatly benefited.  I mean, can you imagine what kind of show/universe we would be talking about if everything that was churned out was delivered with purpose and continuity and care?

 

I think I'm going to actually get Trace Memory and read it.  Thank you, Itsmeyousee for sharing about the book.

[itsmeyousee]

That's ok Dizzy. Did you read the transcripts of In The Shadows and The Sin Eaters that i linked to ? Both to me are interesting stories but also have great character moments.

 

I don't know that i'm an extra whore LOL but i will give them a go. And the majority of the TW books aren't that bad, there are some right naff ones or even some just plan boring ones LOL but you are going to get that. And some are really quite good but the Radio Plays were like that as well and the show to be honest some real hit and misses LOL. I guess it depends on what is attracting you in the show.

 

If anyone wants reviews on the other books/audio books, just let me know which ones. But like i have mentioned the Suzie one Long Time Dead is the only one after COE that i have read. Sorry but i gave MD a go and after that i don't want to read about TW after COE, so someone else would have to do those ones (smile)