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natyxg

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Posts posted by natyxg


  1. On 10/6/2019 at 3:37 PM, whisperingtheblues said:

    Speaking of Catherine - when Anne breaks the paper knife given to Ann by Catherine in what appeared to be a fit of jealousy, was it due to Anne being jealous of Ann/Catherine's relationship or just because the extended trip was throwing a fly in the ointment of Anne's seduction plans?  I couldn't tell if Anne thought Ann/Catherine's "relationship" was something more.  Maybe I was overthinking it.

    Maybe I'm misremembering, but I think that in the diaries she simply broke it accidentally. However, I do think that the show meant to say something with that moment. I think probably both of those things you mention. I don't think you're over-thinking it.

    In the diaries, however, Anne was a bit thrown for a loop because of how sexually forward Ann was, and she at times thought that Ann couldn't have been a virgin like she said. I think that in the end Anne did believe her, did believe that she was a virgin before her. Either that or she always went back and forth with that, I'm not sure. But anyway, what I'm getting at is that one of her theories, when she didn't believe Ann, was that Catherine had been Ann's lover and had taught her things. 😁

    Now, before anyone mentions the reverend, IIRC in the diaries Ann never says that she slept with him. She always denied it and claimed that the farthest they got was kissing. So that was a creative licence on the show's part. Like Sowden's murder plot. The guy existed but was never murdered.


  2. Recently finished this up. I was very frustrated with the third season. I wasn't too keen on the ending, but I could at least understand the logic behind it. But I wanted an explanation about the whole thing. My memory is kinda spotty, but... IIRC Original Elishia was married to a woman, then died and when she returned she was someone else and did some science thing mixed with magic? I guess? To bring William back because they were in love back in the day... right? Something like that?

    Then in this season William remembers that he had died at sea and came back from the dead, just like that, without intervention... There's some mention that the soil at the cemetery had some rock only found where Jesus died, and the Norgard guy said that Jesus was like them....

    Huh? HUH?

    I feel like half of the explanations that I needed were just not there, and that they possibly changed their minds halfway through about what they were saying. Are they saying that some people just die and come back as some sort of glitch in the universal system (hence the name)? People like William? But how does that explain Elishia dying and returning as someone else? How does that explain that she was able to bring people back from the dead herself? What about the boundary? Why was it there before, and then it was just gone? Did they explain this? Did they explain all these things and I've just forgotten? I doubt that, but maybe my memory is that bad.

    I didn't mind the two new ones, I liked them and found them cute, but given that it was the last season and they only had six episodes, I did wonder what was the point of all that... as well as the point of Kristie's pregnancy. And wtf was that thing with Owen? Was the actor not available for the whole season? It was just all so odd.

    I did like that the nerdy cop (Chris?) got a happy ending, free of his asshole brother and with a family of his own. He was a good man.

    Overall, this seems to me like another show that was greenlit because it had a cool premise (it really was), and then they absolutely didn't know what to do with it.

    • Like 2

  3. 3 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

    And now that I think about it, Jane and Raf never had these huge life or death moments that are a standard in this genre.

    Life or death moments, or true obstacles. Like I always say, my memory sucks (and I'm not going to watch it again, lol), but from what I remember their only "obstacle" was Michael and he was out in early season three. And you could argue that he was more an obstacle to Rafael, since Jane wanted to be with him at the time. Then after that nothing stopped them from getting together. After the jump it was all about how they were best friends. Then there was some light stuff when Jane's heart glowed again, but he was with Petra, but that lasted nothing. They got together when they wanted to. There was nothing organic that could create "epicness" because they had no real obstacles. It was just very mundane life stuff. I think this is why I never remember any Rafael and Jane moments.

    • Like 2

  4. 11 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

    What’s sad is the only motivation for Jennie, it seems, was to make sure it was known that Raf wasn’t “second best.” Raf even had a line at one point (I think mid-S4) that went something like: “I feel like second best...even though I know we can’t prove it!” Then boom: Michael’s back so Jennie can “prove it.” Again, no need for that if it was something she had already written clearly....

    It was also odd that Jennie believed  that Jane needed to prove herself to Raf, as if she owed it to him for ever choosing Michael to begin with. All of S5 seemed like it was a way for Jennie to “course-correct” her plot. The article on the last page said it best, it was Raf’s wish fulfillment. 

    And even those things were done so badly.  There was no lingering doubt in the show anymore that Jane still wanted Michael or Rafael was second best. So, there was no need to bring it up and no way to do it properly. It was a story that could only work if it was "needed" because then that could serve as a guide for the story itself. Instead, it was a story that had no logic or true north, it wasn't fulfilling anything or answering a question. That meant that Jane's confusion felt hollow and then her "choice" felt even more hollow... What was it about Rafael that made him the one over Michael? No reason, he just is because she's in love with him now, which we all knew by the end of season four. If Jane had been still on the fence about Rafael at the end of season four and Michael returned, then at least her "choosing" him over Michael could've been the moment when she truly made sense of her feelings and realized that he really was the one she wanted and loved, because of "x" reasons. But no, none of that.  I don't know if I'm explaining myself, but anyway...

    To make matters even worse, when you think about it Jane didn't really "choose" Rafael over Michael, because JasonMichael was a weird hybrid who had lost most of the stuff that made Michael, Michael. So it was really more like she chose Rafael over a long lost twin of Michael's. They didn't even "go" where they really needed to go if they wanted this story to work. The amnesia bit was okay-ish in the sense that it protected Michael, because Michael could never fake his death and leave Jane mourning and all that. But when he got his memory back, he should've been himself, which is what actually happens in telenovelas, by the way.

    • Like 4

  5. 10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

    Jane and Rafael FOUGHT ALL THE TIME ABOUT EVERYTHING. They were exhausting. And don't tell me that was passion.  It was just stupidity on their parts. 

    Yeah, if we go by that then Rafael's reaction to Michael's return and his zero support and understanding of Jane during the first half of season five (and his tantrums) is enough to say that the writers were telling us that they were not meant to be.

    For me, I always knew they were meant to be because of how the show was set up. They were the two protagonists. I think Michael could've been a good match for Jane, but they weren't gonna have Rafael end with some random. He was too important. Him and Jane were the two pillars of the show. But I don't think their story had a lot of pow, as a love story. I can't remember anything remarkable about it. They should've used season five for that, now that they were finally together, instead of wasting time destroying Michael and making Rafael a whiny douche who sulked and didn't support Jane through a pretty huge thing that happened to her and instead broke up with her and she ended up almost begging to be taken back. Even then it was odd to see Michael being supportive and only wanting her to be happy, while Rafael was acting like that.

    • Like 4

  6. 10 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

    As I said, IMO, I think they should have spent more time SHOWING us Jane/Raf than Michael/Jane if that was always “inevitable.” There was way too much time spent on flashbacks, their history, their present, hopes for the future, for example, for a couple that was never “viable” and a character that was “unimportant” and a “road block to Jane/Raf.” 

    I think there's truth in here. I don't think Jane and Michael were treated in a subpar way, on the contrary. I think, if memory serves me right, that while Rafael was always the endgame, they did do a very thorough love story with Jane and Michael. There was a lot of romance, a lot of "destiny" stuff, a lot of flashbacks to their beginnings, a lot of compatibility and Jane genuinely wanting to spend the rest of her life with him. While her thing with Rafael seemed to be some old crush that got heightened when she got pregnant with his child (at the time). Jane had her own life with Michael before the Rafael detour, and she went back to it fully. The idea was, I think, that they both had to grow before they were ready for each other (which was fine).

    Then Michael died and Jane was devastated and mourned DEEPLY. For literal years. Michael was never the endgame, but they really did go there, in my opinion. Which I think worked fine and they should have left it alone. It was bringing Michael back to destroy him and his past with Jane that ruined it all, and wasn't needed at all. One after the other would've been fine.

    • Like 10

  7. Finally got around to watching the finale. It was okay, I guess. Jane is a show that I always enjoyed and thought kept up the quality through the years, for the most part (specially after they killed the infernal Jane-Michael-Rafael love triangle), but I can't say that I feel sad that it's over, or that I found the finale emotional.

    I never hated Jane and Rafael, nor did I ever feel strongly about them. I always knew they were endgame and accepted that, but they never called to me in any particular way. So, I wasn't really moved by this episode. I also feel like this big love story full of obstacles that they want to tell me happened... wasn't there, so meh. And I say “feel” because my memory sucks, so I can't tell you details, I just feel like that never happened. My feeling is that most of the time if they weren't together it was simply because they didn't want to, specially post Michael. I don't find that epic. *shrugs* Though I guess it could be wrong, cause, bad memory. They were also living together at this point, and had been for months, so getting married wouldn't change things all that much anyway either. So, meh. Telenovelas might always end in weddings, but the protagonists haven't been living as a married couple for God knows how long when they get married. lol.

    At least they didn't do what the original did, which was tell us that they were going to get married, we see them leave for the wedding, and then BAM jump to really old Juana and Mauricio, celebrating like their 50th anniversary, then telling us about their wedding in flashbacks... and remembering how some of the people there were dead already. It was very wtf, I was so upset. 😂

    But back to Jane, it was okay. And I think a big part of the reason why I'm not going to miss this show is because of how angry I still am about the Michael situation. It ruined season 5 for me and I will never forgive their pettiness.

    *It was so odd to see Rafael in bed with the twins and being affectionate with them. It was so rare to see.

    *They DID remember the stuff about him being adopted! 😂 I guess it was something they came up with and kept unsolved in case they ever wanted another big twist, but they never needed it so they forgot about it.

    *I didn't like Xo going to New York. Shows so often like to pull this shit, having someone move away in the finale or some arbitrary change like that for no good reason. There was no need to break up the Villanueva women at all. I'll pretend it didn't happen.

    *I'll also pretend that Mateo wasn't the narrator all along because he was always too insufferable to be the fun narrator.

    Finally, I'll say that the thing I'll take away from this show is Petra. Her character grew so much in such a fantastic and believable way, yet she never stopped being fun. And the relationship I'll take away from the show is Jane and Petra. Such a fantastic, realistic, slow burn friendship, and they had so much chemistry. I find them much more interesting that the romantic relationships they both ended up in.

    Aaaaan that's a wrap!

    • Like 4

  8. On 7/19/2019 at 10:54 PM, kieyra said:

    We discussed it a fair bit in the original (now deleted) thread. It made me uncomfortable in the first half of the season. Some counterpoints (to me) are that Anne refused to take Ann’s money unless they were committed to each other (ideally married), and that historical spoiler

      Reveal spoiler

    they did have an on-again, off-again thing for a long time wherein Anne would back off when Ann told her to back off. Sometimes she’d back off all the way to another country, as we saw in the show. That said, RL Anne Lister was definitely a player with a lot of conquests.

    Another poster wrote a great piece, which I will never be able to reproduce, about how the power dynamics aren’t precisely what they seem at first glance, and that Ann clearly has quite a  lot of power over Anne. And is capable of emotionally devastating her. 

    If we’re talking strictly the physical stuff in the first few episodes, yeah, Anne is definitely pushing the issue, and yes, to modern eyes it can be uncomfortable. (I think it doesn’t help that Sophie Rundle looks about 17.) Anne does stop when told to stop at various key scenes, but probably not as soon as us some of would like to see. 

    I think the show went out of its way to show that Ann was interested in Anne from the very beginning and loved the attention. From the very first scene she's looking at Shibden Hall all interested, and when she sees Anne during the visit at Shibden she seems very fascinated with her. Then there's the vivid anecdote about when Anne visited them when Ann was like 17 and she never forgot. Ann was also the one who wanted Anne to "stay the night" right away.

    In fact, in the diaries Anne is taken back by how forward Ann is sexually. So much so that she gets it in her head that she must have had other lovers and she won't be able to measure up, so she's actually nervous to stay the night.

    • Like 5

  9. 1 hour ago, twoods said:

    I don’t think Rafael was supposed to be Jane’s first and only choice. This show showcased that you can be happy and love two people in different stages of your life. She chose Michael over Rafael and had a wonderful and full relationship with him prior to his “death”, and then mourned him and opened her heart again to Rafael whom she had a wonderful relationship as well. All would have been fine if they kept it like that, then they brought back Michael with the sole plot of Jane choosing Rafael this time. What was the point? She already was happy with Rafael. He didn’t even get to interact with the rest of the characters after he regained his memories and was isolated in Montana so Jane and Raf can have their happy ending. It was a disservice for his character to be a plot point, and cruel to his fans who were hoping for something more. 

    I agree completely. For me much of the pettiness comes from the fact that it wasn't needed at all. She was fine with Rafael, she had moved on from Michael, she was rebuilding her life... Rafael was her endgame, Michael was her past. There was no nagging feeling that she was only with Rafael because Michael was dead. Besides, the way that they plot everything doesn't even fully work to make her "choose" Rafael over Michael, since that Jason/Michael hybrid wasn't even the man she knew and loved. In order for her to fully "choose" Rafael over Michael, then it had to be Michael-Michael.

    Everything in that plot was a mess.

    11 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

    Those things are correct too. A few things were different. You can download the whole thing online. Just *Google* it and it pops up. That's what I did. If you never read the original season 3 draft. You can find it on Reddit. If you want me to send you a link I will. I won't be able to do it until tomorrow. You can download that too. Things were also changed. Some subplots in that season was removed or changed. 

    Sure, you can send it if you want.

    • Like 3

  10. 14 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

    In the original pilot script for this version, Jane was originally like 14/15/16 (I forgot which one) when she first kissed Rafeal. But it was changed to 18. On this American remake, Rafael is only 7 years older than Jane. She was 18, he was 25 when they first kissed. Some would still view that as uncomfortable but at least she was of a legal age in everywhere. 

    What I remember about the pilot script I read was that Luisa was going to die by episode three. And I think Rose was very different in some way that I can't remember right now.


  11. 4 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

    So the LLN's accent - I guess that was all acting? Because after 6 or 7 years of being around people without a noticeable "LLN" accent, it doesn't seem like he'd possibly sound like that, even if he'd been stranded on a desert island with grandpa Ro for the next 50 years!

    Oh well.  I guess if all those Brits and Aussies can do American accents, Mateo should go for it!

    Yeah, I think it's supposed to be acting. Mateo would be like Jane herself, for example. She doesn't have an accent because she grew up in the US. In fact, when Mateo says that great grandma says that he would be great at voice over work and the narrator says "and for the record, I am", he sounds like an average American dude. Then he changes his voice again.

    • Like 5
    • Useful 1

  12. 1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

    This article above comes off as so strange to me, and not particularly insightful, to be honest. Especially after the another rewatch of the show. They say that it's insulting for Michael to be treated as a plot device in season 5, as if he was ever anything but one in all of those previous seasons. He was the biggest obstacle for Jafael, both in season 1 when he was "safe", familiar choice and in season 3 when he was dead but Jane was so scared to actually choose Rafael and admit she's madly in love with him, she tried to run away via Michael's "meant to be" letter that led her to Adam, of all people.

    BTW, I'd suggest that the author of the article should write more about other interesting topics, like the treatment of said Adam. Remember Adam? The dude with his own Latin Lover Narrator shtick and the special connection to Mateo? He, after all, was such a big part of Jane's life, her first love, the person she wanted to marry for the first time. Isn't it insulting for him to be treated as plot device to stall Jafael in season 4?

    In terms of story structure and character archetypes, yes, Michael was basically the big obstacle to Jane and Rafael. However, I don't think the show treated him that way previous to season five. Michael was just more or less an extension of Jane, but, as far as I remember, he was a "real" person and his relationship with Jane WAS taken very seriously. They were about to be married when the show started, and the show, imo, did go out of their way to show that he was an "epic" love of Jane's, specially after they decided that she would marry him. Maybe it was to make it seem like she and Rafael really wouldn't end up together, but they went on and on about how they met, the magic kiss, how much Michael knew Jane, how happy they were together after they married... and when he died, Jane mourned him for years. She didn't even go out on a single date for years. Her pain was real, because her love for him was real. She really thought that she was going to spend the rest of her life with him.

    So, I think that Michael was a huge part of the show and Jane's journey, and I do think that how they treated him and their story this season was appalling. This year he was just a plot device no one really cared about (the characters, I mean) in a rushed plot that wasn't even needed, and their systematic destruction of Jane&Michael's story was just mean spirited. Letting her fall in love with Rafael all over again after she mourned Michael and they were both (she and Rafael) different people was more than fine, but noooo....

    Regarding Adam, he came very late in the show and wasn't on very long, so it's not surprising that he might not have had the same impact, even though in theory he too had an important place in Jane's life. Much like how we don't feel much for Michael and Charlie because we didn't see squat (even though in theory she's his destiny now *eyeroll*), it's hard to feel much for Adam & Jane. That's how it works with stories. People will always care more about the story that they're seeing right now, than they do about the backstory that they didn't see much of.

    • Like 15

  13. 18 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

    Oh gosh, no I don’t meet that the idea of artificial insemination working is crazy. I know for a fact it works pretty well! That’s why I said accidental insemination. I mean that the doctor could do it without consent to a virgin patient who was there for a totally different procedure. 

    Since this is the end, it just made me think about how much the whole principle premise of the show creeped me out so much when I first heard about it, I thought I was going to hate watch it - and how surprised I have been over the course of all these years that they somehow made this a really good show, and one that I will always look back on fondly.

    If you want to be even more creeped out, in the original show, Juana La Virgen, Juana is 17, when she's accidentally inseminated and Mauricio is like 34. They made sure that Juana turned 18 before she had sex with him, though, but still... At least Jane was a proper adult when this whole thing happened.

    I was young when I watched it and thought nothing of it, but now I kind of shudder.

    • Laugh 2
    • Surprise 3

  14. 2 minutes ago, nilyank said:

    Rogelio's and Michael's relationship. Even after Michael regained his memories, the show downplayed how well those two characters interacted with each other. They barely had any scenes together. Sure Jane chose Rafael, but Rogelio adored Michael and grieved his death, but you would barely know that this season.

    VERY TRUE.


  15. Quote

    Jane chose Michael when she married him, but they had to bring him back from the dead just so they could erase that earlier choice and say now and forever that she would choose Rafael over Michael.

    Not just erase that choice, but destroy everything related to Michael and Jane as much as they could. They destroy Michael and turn him into a weird hybrid Jane wouldn't even want to be friends with. They make him mock Michael's romanticism. They retcon Michael's decision to leave the force to say now that he did it for Jane (LIES, IIRC), so therefore their marriage would never have worked because of the "lies" and the resentment that would have followed. They even destroyed the importance of Jane's first book by saying that Rogelio made it happen, so even that accomplishment couldn't be tied to her love story with Michael. I'm sure I'm missing stuff. It was petty and brutal, and, at least for me, it had the opposite effect and made me resent Jane/Rafael. Destroying one ship unnecessarily just to prop up another one is not a good look. Michael had been gone for a while, and there was no need. None. Just pettiness.

    • Like 4

  16. 3 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

    I’m so upset with that unresolved subplot. I’ll take Luisa saying she found them. Anything to close it. Don’t make it a big part of the series if you didn’t plan on doing anything with it. I would have preferred he remain Emilio’s biological son and find another way for him to lose his money. Say Emilio made all of his money illegally or never paid the IRS. That’s still soapy.

    I don't even remember that plot enough to know if it will fit, but I'm half expecting the big twist to be that Rose was his mother, and that's why they came out with that stuff about her being 51. But they wouldn't, would they?


  17. 21 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

    Of course Jane's relationship with Xo and Alba is a big part of the series too. Jane and Rogelio too. But Rafael is that dude. He's the male lead, her muse and romantic hero. The show's words not mine. The series doesn't even exist if his sister doesn't make that medical mistake. *I agree with you, by the way* 

    There are two "worlds" in the show:

    *Jane's world: Xiomara, Rogelio, Abuela, Mateo, writing stuff, Jane's personal life, etc

    *Rafael's world: the Marbella, Petra, Luisa, Rose, the crime story, etc

    They're the protagonists, they were the gateways to both worlds. It was always their story... maybe Jane's more than Rafael's, but he still got a pretty long arc, too, where he did a lot of changing and growing.

    One loose end that will apparently be left hanging was the whole thing about Rafael being adopted... what was the point of that? It feels like there was some twist or reveal that was left hanging because they forgot about it somewhere in the middle of it all.

    • Like 1

  18. 8 hours ago, CooperTV said:

    The show made Michael's death about Jane and Rafael (he's the one who is there for her when she finds out about Michael's death), then the show made Michael's funeral about Jane and Rafael (Rafael being Jane's voice when she couldn't speak), the EP framed Michael coming back from the dead as the point of conquering Rafael's fear of being "second choice", and stated that if Jane and Rafael could survive her husband coming back from the dead then they'll survive anything. It was never about Michael as a character, it was about Michael the Plot Device to further the Jafael narrative, yet again. For better or for worse, that's the way it is, it's the show.

    I don't think at any point this season the show was deceptive as to what the endgame was supposed to be, nor it was deceptive before that either, imo.

    Comparing JtV with Dawson's Creek is a bit unfair. Jennie Urman never at any point changed the outcome of her show, unlike the people who run DC. Urman had a plan and was writing towards it from the beginning.

    I too think that the endgame was always Jane and Rafael, and I don't think the show was deceptive either. They're the protagonists, of course they're the endgame.

    For me, however, the problem was that somewhere in season two they decided to take Jane and Michael seriously. I think that maybe they saw that all the back and forth was tedious and it made Jane seem flaky, so they committed to them fully and let them have their own story... ending with Michael's death. So we saw real love between them, in my opinion, a proper love story that was epic in its own way. Michael also got to be Jane's "first" in many ways, and I found his devotion to her quite touching. I thought killing him off "protected" that love story, as well as Michael's memory, and allowed Jane and Rafael to flourish on their own, not at the expense of destroying Michael himself, and Michael and Jane's love story. I was fine with that.

    Fast forward a couple of seasons, and they just went out of their way to do exactly that in a really petty way, and for no reason. They did Michael very dirty and they ruined the last season of the show, for me. Just blegh.

    • Like 6

  19. On 7/26/2019 at 2:25 PM, cardigirl said:

    I did think Rafael tapping himself while waiting to hear about Jane's book was very cute (at the end of the episode).  But all of his BIG emotional moments with Jane just left me cold. 

    One show I can think of where the writers went off script (and I might be wrong) was Pacey and Joey in Dawson's Creek, but maybe they were endgame all along too.

    Same. All of it feels meh.

    I was pretty disappointed by how they closed up Rose and Luisa. Maybe it's because I've fallen for Bridget after watching Legend of the Seeker some months ago, but I loved seeing her being fabulous and evil one last time. In the last few seasons we've seen so little of her that it just felt like we got glimpses of her when she was just being one note for 3 minutes an episode, so I enjoyed seeing more of her now. But much like Michael's ONE TRUE LOVE, Luisa's whatever happened of screen so seeing her killing her Rose like that felt odd and off, and cheap. I understand intellectually how and why she could have fallen out of love, but we saw very little or nothing, so it just feels off. I did like that Rose loved her till the end, in her own way. It was her one redeeming quality, and in spite of her being evil I kinda wish they had stayed together. Luisa's """"family""""' doesn't really care about her at all and never has, so seeing Jane inviting her to the wedding and that's supposed to be Luisa's big moment and whatever... meh. It was the "right" ending for Villain Rose and Rose/Luisa and Luisa, but it felt flat.

    Same with Michael. It was "right" for him to have a "happy" ending which on tv means babies and marriage, but I don't know or care about Charlie (in fact, they went out of their way to make her unpleasant, for some reason), so the whole thing feels wrong. I preferred the Michael that was going to love Jane until his last breath. I preferred the Michael who went out of his way to stop Rose for a freaking long time (and now puff, he has no place in her resolution grr), and if he wasn't going to be with Jane (which I always knew), but they were going to bring him back, he deserved a real place in the show with a new love story that I could care about, and therefore be happy that he found love again (in a believable way). If they didn't have the actor available, then don't do anything, imo. Just let him stay dead. It's not like that story added much to the show. It kind of tanked the first half of the season, actually, in my opinion. So, bringing Michael back one last time just so we could see that now the thing that defined him the most, putting Jane above everything, is gone and they're SO out of love now, wasn't particularly pleasant to watch. I've always known that the endgame was Jane/Rafael, but man did they do Michael and his story with Jane dirty, for no reason (which it the worst part of it all).

    I'm wondering what they're doing with Petra. I always assumed she would end up with JR, but I'm starting to wonder if she won't.

    What was the deal with saying Rose was 51 and not 38? Is there a reason for that, or was it just a pointless joke?

    • Like 5

  20. Didn't he do something to her first? I remember the moment when she found out and her heart turned black, and then she conspired against him with the twin. IIRC it wasn't because he wasn't her biological brother. It could've been that he lied about having cancer again to get her out of hiding and something happened with Rose as a consequence? Something like that?

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