northboundtrain
-
Posts
29 -
Joined
Content Type
Blogs
Gallery
Downloads
Discussion
Posts posted by northboundtrain
-
-
Some quick thoughts:
* Great episode...so glad that the showrunners decided to spend so much of the episode with just the
threefour (I actually did have to correct that) siblings holed up at Rava's. Is that the first time we've seen just those four in a scene together since S1 E2? All of it was riveting.* My feeling that Kendall is going to be the architect of his own downfall was only reinforced by those scenes where he ignored both Greg and Lisa and in favor of focusing on the ultimately futile task of trying to sway his siblings. Yeah, he did end up back in Lisa's office, head bowed and ready to get to work at the end of the episode, but Greg is now off in the office of some lawyer who sees him as a "wedge" to bring down Waystar. And I doubt this is the last we'll see of Kendall ignoring good advice because he's distracted by family drama.
* When I remembered how Kendall was genuinely touched that Roman brought him the Danish pastries, it made me think that it's really too bad for Kendall that he opted to go ahead and speak to all of the siblings at the same time instead of individually. The outcome couldn't have been any worse if he'd taken the time to target each one. Having them all in the room together created a distracting atmosphere and made it easier for Shiv, Roman, and Con to feed off of each other's mistrust of Kendall and lingering love for Logan.
* Though Kendall's "the only one who matters" spiel to Shiv would have backfired on him, regardless, I think. All that did was make her more likely to believe Logan really will pick her in the end.
* As I love the Roman/Gerri dynamic, I'm pretty pleased that we already got Gerri's "I'm an incredibly dangerous enemy" bit from the promo out of the way and that it was in the context of a preemptive warning and not a response to something Roman's already done. Not that I expect their "marriage" to last the full season, but I'm not ready to see it over yet.
* I'm so happy Marcia's back. I got little chills when her lawyer started in on the "reasonable numbers" speech while Marcia strolled into Logan's room.
* Tom's conspiratorial "We'll have to see if he buys that" to Greg surprised me. I guess Tom's figured that, for now, it's in his best interest to protect Greg even though he knows Greg's already passed off the papers.
* So we're currently looking at three, possibly four, different factions, right? 1) Kendall, 2) Logan/Shiv, 3) Roman/Gerri, 4) Greg (maybe with Tom?). Kendall thinks he has Greg, but he doesn't, because Greg doesn't trust him and is financially beholden to Ewan. Logan thinks he has Roman, but he doesn't, because Roman did not sign up for a Gerri/Shiv switcheroo (especially if the fallout removes Gerri from Waystar and the ability to mentor/"mentor" Roman).
-
9
-
-
It's great to be back...what a wonderful premiere!
* So, I was looking back on what I think was my last post on this board following the S2 finale, and it was about Brian Cox's interview where he indicated that Kendall turning on Logan was some kind of plan on Logan's part. Well, I was really put off by that idea, as it didn't seem like a good dramatic direction for the show (just more of Logan being a puppet-master, which we had already seen far too much of by that point). Of course, that was two years ago (!!) and it's been debunked, so, whew. Very happy about that.
* It seems obvious to me that Kendall is having an episode and not totally in his right mind, and I think that "Who says I haven't killed anybody?" line was meant to underscore that fact. When he's brought down, it'll be his own doing.
Though re: Kendall telling Frank and Rava that he did this for them, I've got a more charitable read on that than some commentators...I believe Kendall believes it and isn't just trying to manipulate them, even though they aren't, obviously, the only reason -- nor do I think Frank or Rava would believe that they're the only reason. Frank and Kendall have been loyal to each other since S1, and Kendall sees the move he is making here as something that will benefit Frank, too. And I'm sure I'm not the only one operating under the assumption that Kendall's still in love with Rava and would be with her if she'd let him. And he loves his kids. So, yeah, I do think they were on his mind when he made the most important call of his professional life and that some part of him did this "for them" just as much as I believe he was also doing it for himself and all that he'll get out of it.
* There were so many little touches this episode underscoring the connection between father and Number 1 Boy -- "Action Stations," the fact that both of them handed off their phones to their assistants, and even trading Jack and the Beanstalk references.
* I'm in the camp that believes Roman threw the job to Gerri on purpose. Roman's never seemed really interested in running things solo -- even back in S1, he was trying to team up with Kendall. He wants a partnership with someone more experienced (as long as it's not Frank), and since last season he's been on a mission to get his "Rockstar and Mole Woman" plan off the ground. Well, now he's done it...which makes Roman the only member of Team Logan who's actually getting exactly what he wants right now. Did anyone else catch Roman trying and failing to hide a smile as he watched Gerri plotting at the airport? And then the way the camera lingered on him staring at Gerri when Shiv took the call from Logan on the plane. And then the way he looked back at her as they were exiting the plane. He's gone, gone, gone.
* So on that front, what I'm wondering is how long it's going to take others to pick up on it and what the fallout from that might be. Logan actually might already be aware (I'm thinking here of how he mocked Roman last season for wanting to screw his mother, and Roman's phone call in the premiere would only have confirmed those suspicions, if Logan has them) -- Shiv finding out could be disastrous for Roman and/or Gerri, too.
* Speaking of Shiv, I do believe Shiv is going to see Kendall. I don't believe she's actually going to side with him, though, because I've seen no indication that Shiv really thinks Kendall will succeed or that she's got any kind of guilt from her role in witness-tampering or in going along with Logan's plan to sacrifice Kendall instead of Tom. Plus, when Kendall called Frank and pitched him, Frank stayed on the line; when Kendall called Shiv, Shiv hung up on him.
Shiv's had a setback, but I doubt she thinks she's out for good. The easiest way for her to prove to her father that she's capable is going after Kendall herself. So I'm expecting her to cozy up to Kendall now in the name of getting something she can take back to Logan.
* I already love Lisa Arthur, and that shot of her sitting in her office as Shiv descends the staircase is one of my favorite shots of the episode (along with Logan watching the plane taking off from the hotel window).
* Was anyone else surprised that Kendall called Shiv and not Roman? I've been mulling that over. Kendall/Roman has been my favorite of the Roy dynamics since S1, and Roman was obviously distressed when Logan announced Kendall as the blood sacrifice -- and Kendall even noticed and sent Roman a reassuring look across the table. I really can't wait for their first interaction.
* With every episode, I find it increasingly hard to believe that Greg was once my least favorite character. I couldn't stand him in the earlier episodes. But Nicholas Braun is magic. I can't decide on my favorite moment this episode -- it's a tie between his pleading with Kendall through the bathroom door and his obviously-rehearsed response to Katarina when she asked him if he knew what Kendall would do.
* One of the things I love most about this show are when characters refer to their pre-S1 history. We got a bunch of that during Frank and Karl's conversation on the plane, reminding us how far back they go and teasing again at Sally Anne, and then there was that nice moment between Kendall and Rava about Mount Athos and their past conversations about Kendall making a clean break.
* I read over this post and realized the only one I'm not getting a good read on right now is Tom. I don't read much into the fact that he didn't return Shiv's "I love you" because he blew her a kiss and seemed his usual self with her on the phone, so I just don't get an "everything's changed" sense from him. I'm guessing he's also secretly mulling over Greg's part in all this, too. Anyway, having him isolated in Sarajevo with Logan, Frank, and Karl is a change of pace for the character, so I'm curious to see what he gets up to next episode.
-
6
-
-
3 hours ago, Dminches said:
I am starting to think that Logan is in on the Kendall announcement at the press conference. When Roman comes in the room and makes a comment Logan puts his finger up to his mouth to say "shhh." I have a hard time believing that that would be his reaction if this was a surprise to him.
I could be wrong too!
Well, Brian Cox is actually out in the press today addressing this very subject.
I have a LOT of thoughts, but a question, first, for someone who's already seen this press...would his comments actually count as a spoiler for S3 and therefore out of bounds for this thread? I wanted to err on the side of caution.
-
6
-
-
1 hour ago, Deanie87 said:
Logan is so loathsome (well, most of them are, that roundtable discussion about who should be the fall guy was cutthroat), but Logan seems to take some kind of pleasure in his cruelty to Ken.
Kendall's the only one of his children that Logan seems to have contempt for. Logan doesn't like him, respect him, or "love" him (as he probably tells himself he "loves" the others), and Kendall's finally seemed to really, really realize it.
QuoteHis speech line about being sadder with Shiv than being without her was so good and of course, Shiv now respects him, just like Logan now respects Ken. She is a chip off the ole block. This show is so stinking good!
That was a great line from Tom.
At the beginning of this season, there was an interview with Sarah Snook that said that Shiv had some serious stuff in her past that Tom was aware of, and that that past informs why she stays with Tom. I really thought we would get more of that backstory this season, but it seems like the writers just want to keep it subtext. In any case, I think Shiv does need him, in a sense, and that's why she was so emotionally affected by his threatening to leave her.
-
1
-
7
-
-
5 minutes ago, CouchTater said:
What a great episode! First, my stomach roiled when I realized Kendall was the blood sacrifice. I literally felt sick. Then I cried real tears as I watched Kendall accept his fate (or so I thought). And when he was encouraging toward Roman at the dinner. And when Roman expressed shock and upset about Kendall. Oh, this show!
What makes Roman's reaction even more poignant for me is thinking about how much it must have meant to Kendall to see his brother so upset on his behalf.
QuoteI wonder if Shiv and Rome will be side with Logan. And what will happen when Kendall's role in the waiter's death inevitably comes out?
I think Shiv will side with Logan...not only did Logan listen to her about Tom (well, from her POV...I don't think Tom was ever in real danger because Logan clearly wanted it to be Kendall), but she still wants to be his successor.
Roman's in a stickier spot. We know he cares about Kendall and has a history of wanting to work with Kendall to oust Logan. But, on the other hand, Logan just made him COO and he's still got emotional sway with Roman...I don't want to dismiss that out of hand, especially since that sway was strong enough to get Roman to abandon Kendall during the vote last season. And Logan will, of course, be keen to get/keep Roman on his side by any means necessary.
-
1
-
2
-
1
-
-
That. Was. Awesome.
I haven't even watched the inside the episode bit yet. I'm still processing.
Kendall did me so proud. I had a feeling it was coming when Logan gave his "you're not a killer" speech. And then there was also something to Kendall's reassurance to Roman (also that look he shot him) that made me think there was something else going on.
Speaking of Kendall/Roman, I've said this before, but I adore that relationship...again and again they prove that they're the only siblings who actually, genuinely care about each other. That look on Roman's face when he realized it was Kendall...and then Roman not even caring that he'd been made COO because of what it meant for Kendall. Just great stuff.
About midway through the episode, I was starting to doubt what I'd said in the other thread about Logan preparing Shiv in the last episode for it to be Kendall, but then Shiv threw in that "What about what we talked about?" when Logan was mulling over his decision, which I guess puts another spin on Shiv going after Tom in front of everyone, right? If, at that point, she knew/believed Logan had already made up his mind to go after Kendall, thus leaving her free to pile on Tom, knowing that it was all for show anyway?
Speaking of the pile on, Shiv going after Tom (regardless of whether or not she actually thought he was in danger), looks that much worse when compared to the way Roman went into attack mode on Gerri's behalf.
I'm sure I'll have more to say once I read everyone else's thoughts. What a fantastic finale, and how wonderful it is already knowing we're getting a S3.
-
14
-
-
Getting some quick thoughts in before tonight's finale:
* I'm not prepared to say whether Kendall will be the blood sacrifice, but I did come out of this episode with two takeaways:
1) Logan's utter loathing of Kendall. There's the obvious stuff, like Logan throwing Kendall under the proverbial bus at the hearing (and JS played Kendall's surprise there, so I don't think any of it was an act) and seeming unimpressed by Kendall's stellar performance. But did anyone else catch Logan's reaction when the TV host mentioned Kendall trying to clean things up at Cruises? The camera focused on Logan shooting Kendall a look not of pride, but of contempt. He really can't stand anything that makes Kendall look good.
2) Logan wants Shiv to think he means to sacrifice Kendall. Whether that's what he's actually going to do, who knows. But it was Kendall whom Logan name-checked during that last conversation, so I think it's Kendall he wanted her to be thinking of. Maybe a ploy, maybe not.
* I'm not sure I've ever been more tense watching this show, between Tom's testimony and the hostage-taking. Brilliant writing, directing, acting, and editing.
* Count me in the camp that thinks Greg's acting and/or that he's working behind the scenes to protect himself. I noticed that when the camera focused on Tom during his Greg-related denials, Greg was positioned right behind him but never in focus, always fuzzy. Could just be a fun nod/reminder of their relationship at the very moment Tom was denying it, but it also had the feel of foreshadowing.
* It can't be a coincidence that Roman suggested "marrying" Gerri last episode and then had that OTT reaction to Laird "marrying" Gerri in this one. I'm not sure exactly where Roman/Gerri is headed, but I think we're getting more of it in S3.
Roman also had what was, for me, the funniest moment of the episode -- his reaction to Karl's announcement that he was having a panic attack: "Really? You seem kind of the same."
-
1
-
7
-
-
19 hours ago, CouchTater said:
I've been thinking about this all season (I probably think about this show too much). The one thing that doesn't ring true to me is Roman's continued presence in the higher echelon of Waystar. He's shown himself to be such a fuck-up so many times, I really expected him to be put "out to pasture" on a ranch in New Mexico by now.
He's had a few good ideas, but as we know, a broken clock is right twice a day, too. I can't believe that Logan would continue to see Roman as a succession contender, and to put him in prominent situations for the company, such as the presentation with Shiv and Kendall.
Putting him on the panel, yeah, I wasn't sure why that was a good idea (or bringing him along to the Pierce meeting, for that matter -- that could have easily gone so, so much worse than it did).
But as to the larger point about why he's still around...Logan clearly doesn't see him as a genuine contender right now (or perhaps ever), and I think Roman's also figured out that it's not going to be him. So I'd put his continued presence at Waystar down to a combination of other factors, such as Logan's desire to play the children off of each other/watch them fight each other, and also the fact that Roman, unlike Connor and, until recently, Shiv, actually does have some interest in doing something with Waystar (even though he's not good at it), and so therefore has something that keeps him hanging around. Maybe Logan sees that and doesn't mind encouraging it, though, again, putting him in these high-pressure situations makes less and less sense as we go forward.
-
1
-
-
I only just got caught up on the last two episodes, but this is just a quick post to say that, to me, Kendall's defense of Roman felt/looked practiced and so, by now, instinctive. And I do, also, think it comes from a place of genuine care between the brothers -- I've said this before, but theirs is the only Roy sibling relationship that I feel some emotional investment in, and that's because of the little glimmers we've gotten of some kind of genuine care/bond beneath the rivalry.
Even in this episode, when they talked about what they were going to wear to the panel, they bantered easily and Kendall actually lightened up a little for a change when Roman teased him about not wearing socks.
Also on the subject of Roman, I'm really digging what the show's doing with him and Gerri, and I'm glad that Roman finally voiced the obvious, that he thinks that they'd make a good team.
-
4
-
-
I don't think the show's renewal chances are high, but my feeling is that if it comes back then Santiago will either be dead or "dead" only to reappear later on down the line.
The biggest reason why Santiago might actually be dead is that it would be getting back to the original Spanish show's plot-line, which opened in the months after hotel owner/patriarch Don Carlos' (Santiago's) death and dealt with how his widow and children ran (or didn't run, in the case of Javier) the hotel.
When I read that the ABC version would feature a living patriarch, I thought that was a curious deviation, but it could be that the plan all along was to use S1 to establish Santiago and then kill him off and open S2 with the Mendozas in a place similar to that of Gran Hotel's Alarcóns.
Then there's the will...if Santiago's alive, there's not much more drama to be mined from the will changes -- he'll simply put Jason in as speedily as he put in Yoli and Carolina, and everyone who's pissed about it will just have to suck it up...the stakes for the audience aren't high enough.
But if he's dead, then there'll be a power struggle between characters of wildly differing abilities who will have clashing interests and reasons to be suspicious of one another.
-
1
-
-
5 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:
Logan seemed very involved with Kendall while ignoring Shiv the whole episode. The first thing he asked during the alarm with the shooter was where is Kendall? He didn't ask about Shiv at all. I wonder if it's just because he needs Kendall right now or if he actually cares about his son.
I absolutely think he was driven not by real concern for Kendall but concern about his lack of control over the situation.
I hadn't thought much about this, actually, but while the show's done a good job of showing that Kendall/Shiv/Roman do love their father and even have at least some small measure of care/concern for each other...I've never seen real evidence from the show that Logan looks at any of them as anything other than property/tools. Even on the rare occasions when he's shown "concern" for their well-being (as in with Kendall at the end of the S1 finale), it's really been about consolidating his power.
-
6
-
-
Another great episode. Kendall is so broken -- the way the camera held on his face when revealing that the shot was from an employee who killed himself. Just brutal. And the way he told Shiv, "It's not going to be me." Kind of hammers home the point that Kendall's not doing any of this for power but because he feels he has no other choice. And we haven't even seen his rock bottom yet.
Did anyone else find it interesting that Gerri was all too happy to tell Shiv that Kendall's got a shoplifting problem? I wonder if that was about helping Kendall or helping Shiv? It was obviously done with some sort of ulterior motive.
Other stuff...the Connor/Willa subplot was a good way of keeping Connor involved in Waystar matters without actually having him at the company.
I liked Roman at the management program and would like (or would have liked?) to see more of it. And he's got a buddy! Of course, that's probably going nowhere good....
Speaking of Roman...
9 hours ago, scrb said:Rome and Gerri, sitting in a tree, kissin ...
WTH, he couldn't do phone sex with Tabitha so he calls up Gerri and she obliges, by shaming and being a maternal(?) scold? Or is it more dominatrix-y?
You knew the flirting was going to lead somewhere (he also half-mockingly called her mommy), though Roman again brags about snorting snertaline off women who don't know they're prostitutes yet.
I loved the Roman part of this sequence (that he'd have trouble with Tabitha but be able to get off with Gerri telling him what a horrible person he is: that absolutely tracks), but I didn't really buy that Gerri would stay on the phone. I guess I hadn't been looking at her affection for him in...quite that way.
QuoteBack at the "B" panic room, Greg tells Tom that he wants to go to work in another dept., doesn't like the human furniture, Nazi stuff, shooters at ATN. He proposes a "business open relationship."
Now did Greg trigger Tom deliberately or accidentally? Was he trolling Tom about Tom's relationship with Shiv? Of course water bottle attack after that.
So later Greg blackmails him about the Cruises division dirt and Tom promotes him with higher salary, better office, but Greg doesn't escape. Because game respects game..
I laughed hysterically at Greg's skepticism about the "safe room," especially his suggestion that since Tom's the primary target he should get his own room. That whole subplot was just brilliant.
I can't believe that I didn't remember until your post that Greg knows about Shiv cheating on Tom. That adds a whole other level to the water bottle fight.
I did wonder, though, why Tom didn't respond to Greg's Cruises threat with a reminder that he knows Greg spoke to the biographer. I don't expect Tom to use the information right now (though of course with the biographer continuing to snoop, it's only a matter of time before it comes out), but why not remind Greg that Greg's not the only one in this relationship with readily-employable dirt?
-
6
-
-
13 hours ago, RealReality said:
Also, just make up the price for a gallon of milk!?!? You think billionaire Logan fucking Roy who threw out platters of lobsters knows the price of milk???
That bit reminded me of the line last season about Logan resenting his children because he had a harder life than they've had. It all goes back to his image.
7 hours ago, terrymct said:I was thinking about Logan and Shiv. Last week, I was wondering how he was playing her. This week, however, I'm starting to think that he may have a blind spot where she's concerned. Daddy's girl, so smart and different from the boys. Does he realize that she's as warped as the rest of them? I don't think so. Shiv is on a pedestal.
This is a good point. Also, because Shiv distanced herself from the company and went into politics, she's never really had the opportunity to disappoint him the way Kendall and Roman have.
4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:I don't understand why the biographer couldn't have more than one source? We know that she contacted several people related to Logan. Moe could have been a source for her; that doesn't mean she wouldn't talk to Greg too.
From the way Logan reacted at the idea that there could even BE a source in the first place (that someone would dare go against him in the way), I wonder if maybe he just thinks it's impossible that there could be another source out there.
QuoteI think he is just that dumb.
Yeah...I think I'm just still so awed Kendall's double-cross last episode that I'm looking for ulterior motives where there aren't any.
3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:On the other hand, he also seems to be the only person who sees that something is seriously off with Kendall, and does seem to be at least considering taking Gerris advice.
That's really one of the most interesting aspects of the Kendall story, that no one's really questioning what's going on with him, except of course for Roman, who is also the one least likely to investigate further.
6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:I think that everything Tom does in Succession is a repeat of that ortolan scene: doing or submitting to horrible and even cruel things in the name of a luxurious lifestyle and trying to convince himself that it's the greatest thing ever, while Greg, who's really the younger version of Tom and Tom's conscience, is quietly horrified. The nightmarish bachelor party coopted by Roman and Kendall, Shiv cheating on Tom and then bringing her flirty side piece to the wedding, the open marriage, running ATN, humiliating himself for the Roys' benefit...it's just one big ortolan. And Greg's reaction to all this awfulness--being appalled by Shiv cheating on Tom, being appalled by the horrible bachelor party, being appalled by ATN, etc.--is probably the same as how Tom feels deep down, but Tom will never ever admit it.
This is really well put.
-
3
-
-
Some quick thoughts...
* Matthew Macfadyen's always fantastic, but I think I actually felt my breath catch in that moment at the end where he reacted to Shiv's infidelity with that croaked out bit about how she could tell him "later."
* I've had this thought in previous episodes, too, but this ep really drove it home: the only Roy sib relationship I have any actual emotional investment in is Kendall/Roman. Yet again in this episode, Roman was the only one noticing and repeatedly giving voice to the fact that this isn't Kendall. Yeah, he's not investigating the "why" yet, but I would bet that that's coming.
* Love that Gerri's going to be grooming Roman. They've always had a nice bond, so I like the idea of the show playing around more with that. I wonder if she really thinks Roman is going to be the last man standing or if she just doesn't care anymore (her "Why??" to Frank when he said he was going to take the job was a great moment) and has just decided to indulge the affection she has for the only family member who seems to appreciate her.
* Speaking of Roman...I could be totally off on my reading here, but after Logan pitched a fit about a rat speaking to Pierce, I started thinking that Roman only reached out to Pierce in the first place because he was secretly trying to sabotage a deal everyone knows is bad news. That may be me giving Roman too much credit, though.
* Tom not selling out Greg was an unexpected but welcome development...and then that little pat he gave Greg at breakfast the next morning. Not that I expect Tom to keep protecting Greg -- I'm sure some kind of epic betrayal is on its way -- but to have him sell Greg out in the middle of that humiliating dinner would have been too much.
6 minutes ago, CouchTater said:Ok, now I'm starting to feel sympathy for Roman.......
I felt for him when Logan called him a moron. KC did well with that scene.
-
13
-
-
This episode was hit and miss for me...mostly miss, if I'm being honest.
Why does the show keep bringing on and discarding bad guys? We had Finn, and now we've got Theresa and Felix. And...
On 8/20/2019 at 7:34 AM, CCTC said:Plus, I think the organized crime as tension is kind of meh and is an easy out to let the family members off of the hook.
This, 100%. This is exactly what's happening.
Gigi is making not-so-great decisions? She's under the sway of her ex-husband. (Possibly. I guess she could be playing him.)
Santiago is making not-so-great decisions? He's under Theresa's thumb. (I don't buy for a single minute that he killed Beatriz. Nothing about the way the writers have presented him makes me think they're going to turn around and say he murdered his wife. And if he did somehow affect the circumstances that led to her death, which I still doubt, it'll just turn out to be an accident, something else for him to feel guilty about like he feels guilty about Javi.)
Mateo is doing shady stuff? He's also under Theresa's thumb. (Show, we watched him sneak into the hospital and murder one of his employees before sauntering back out again. I'm not buying the little "redemption" noises we're now getting.)
I honestly find it a little baffling.
On 8/20/2019 at 10:41 AM, blackwing said:Javi doesn't seem to have much of a role anymore, seems like he can't drink anymore so now he's no fun? Reminds me of Rachel Greene and "Fun Bobby" who was no fun after he stopped drinking. Did Javi also say he wasn't going to have random hookups anymore? Why wasn't he trying to talk to any of those women?
Javi was one of the reasons I was giving the show so much of a chance in the early episodes. While the actor did well with the comedic material this episode, Javi's still been softened far, far too quickly.
On 8/20/2019 at 3:06 PM, greyhorse said:Well, whomever wanted Danny to team up with Alicia to figure out what happened to Sky got their wish... and Danny gets promptly fired. Does this mean Alicia knows that something fishy occurred with Sky and that her family is guilty? I bet it's going to be more because of feeling betrayed, used, and misled. Feelings that she already probably had given the arrival of the ex.
I wanted Alicia/Danny to have been working together from the start, or at least earlier in the season, because I thought that would have made their relationship more believable. While I'm glad Alicia finally knows the truth, I'm finding it intensely hard to care about Danny as a character and, as a result, I'm also finding it hard to care about their relationship.
Because probably the worst thing about Heather's appearance is that it served as a reminder that Danny unceremoniously dumped his girlfriend of two years, who had been supporting him in the aftermath of his sister's disappearance, over the phone so he could chase after Alicia without feeling guilty. That was the absolute last thing I needed to be reinforced for me if I'm supposed to be rooting for his character. What an ass.
QuoteAnd was this the first time we heard that Santiago really got the hotel because he inherited it when his wife died?
I believe Alicia did remark to Santiago in the pilot that it was Beatriz's hotel before it was Santiago's.
8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:Poor Ingrid. Her roommate Skye disappeared months ago. She got pregnant and Mateo treated the news like an unpleasant business transaction. She miscarried after the balcony accient. Jason already blew her off after he found out that she lied about Javi being the baby's father and now her only other two friends at the hotel (Mateo and Javi) both told her to that they want nothing to do with her. I hope this doesn't drive her to something desperate like a suicide attempt.
I would totally buy Ingrid spiraling, because she's certainly had enough trauma for it, except right now she seems recovered and not in any way majorly affected by what's happened to her. I mean, she's sad and awkward about Mateo and Javi pushing her away, but I'm not getting anything from the acting or the writing suggesting that it'll lead somewhere deeper than just some passing sadness, and that's a shame because Ingrid actually struggling (and not "living with the Ps and being unable to cook edible meals" struggling) could be a compelling subplot and lead to more dramatic story complications.
QuoteI really hate that Yoli and Carolina are so blinded by their daddy/abandonment issues that they are willing to lap up whatever bullshit story he feeds them.
I'm still not sure why the writers abandoned the idea of having Yoli be more skeptical of their father while Carolina was more accepting. Why not use that to create tension? Just so they could have the happy family breakfast scenes? I don't know that that's strong enough justification.
-
3
-
-
3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:
Didn’t Marcia have a child? I seem to remember that she did. I’m surprised there aren’t more relatives/vultures trying to get an ‘in’ with Logan.
Yes, Marcia's got (at least?) one child, a son. I think he was in the Thanksgiving episode and there was a bit about how Logan had put him in charge of some division at Waystar. It was apparently a surprise to Logan's kids when it came up in conversation.
2 hours ago, RealReality said:I think Logan's cognitive difficulties have to start showing up again. At this point it's just Logan in control of everything, which is fine but much more interesting if the monkey wrench of his problems are thrown in.
Could they already be there? I did notice this last episode that it seemed like there was something off about the way he was speaking compared to how he'd spoken in previous episodes...it seemed slower and more deliberate.
-
1
-
-
Another great episode.
6 hours ago, Eyes High said:Tom actually gave Shiv excellent advice about playing both sides. His warning that there's a chance that Logan would do the same thing to Shiv that he did to Kendall could be foreshadowing.
Speaking of foreshadowing, I've been wondering about that new first shot of the credits, where the boys leave and "Shiv" is left standing alone and looking distressed, given that it's so similar to the shot in the S1 credits of "Kendall" left standing alone uncertainly after his father leaves (so basically the plot of S1).
I just can't quite decide if the new shot meant as a sort of "here's how we got to this point..." illustration (like, Shiv being left behind/underestimated by the men and how that has shaped her and her relationships with them as an adult), or if it's meant to be foreshadowing Shiv's fall.
5 hours ago, CouchTater said:I forgot to add, I really love this show. But wow, this episode was dark. Oof. I loved the episode, but didn't enjoy it.
That's a great way of putting it. Pretty much everyone was at their worst.
QuoteKendall was a zombie for the majority of the episode. Until he ripped off Vaulter's head in the twist that I did not see coming.
I didn't see the twist coming either...it was so masterfully done. First, because in a way it was already a bit of a twist to see Kendall, who hasn't done one proactive business move (or proactive anything, really) since the car wreck, approach Laurence with an offer of assistance. But, of course, it made sense that the threat of Vaulter getting gutted would be enough to jolt Kendall back to his senses, if only for a little while.
Then when we got the other twist, that Kendall played Laurence/Vaulter, it was twisty in two ways, because it's Kendall actually gutting his prized possession, so that's shocking on its own, but it's also a signal from the writers: Even when it looks like Kendall, talks like Kendall, and seems to value what Kendall values...it's not Kendall. Not anymore. And possibly never again.
4 hours ago, BC4ME said:I can certainly see how he would have a reason to stay with her to further his ambitions but I'm not getting as strong of a reason for why she would stay with him. He doesn't seem to have as much to offer, especially since she doesn't really even seem to love him. I understand there are some reasons just not as good as the other way around.
I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler since it was just a vague mention of something in Sarah Snook's Hollywood Reporter interview, but just in case...
SpoilerThis is what she says about what's coming up for Shiv this season: "I guess it's hinted at previously in episode 10 in season one, but we definitely get more of a sense of there having been a past where Shiv was maybe a little bit less in control of her emotions or feelings. There's been a situation in the past where she's been out of sorts and that both Logan and Tom were aware of. There's a history of something that's happened."
I'm prepared to believe that whatever this subplot is is going to make Shiv's relationship with Tom (and perhaps her reasoning for choosing him over others) a little clearer.
3 hours ago, scrb said:Logan accused her of settling for a man who's way beneath her but then at the wedding said he's" a good man, he's a good man."
I do remember thinking that that comment from Logan might be more of a simple acknowledgement that Tom's total worship of Shiv (and being so under her thumb and desperate for Roy family approval) meant that at least he might be (from Logan's POV) unlikely to cheat on her or abuse her.
3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:Marcia was pissed.
I almost couldn't believe it. Last season, did we ever see Marcia not in control?
3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:I thought Kendall’s foray into meaningless shoplifting was another sign of his mental decline. He’s back to drugs and meaningless sex, why not throw in some kleptomania?
ETA: Kendall was ...good in having the birthday at the park for his daughter. He was such a dick in S1 and I feel for him now.
I thought the same about the shoplifting...he's spiraling and looking for ways to demonstrate how little he cares about anything. I thought the same about his disparagement of Rava last episode.
Ugh, but that line from Roman about how Kendall can't even hug his daughter...that got to me. And, of course it would be Roman who was observant enough to notice and then, of course, callous even not to bother with it further.
1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:Some have suggested that his doing this deed was so that he could move up in Logan's good graces and his being stationed in Logan's office was proof that he had advanced. But I didn't see it that way. Him being stationed in Logan's office at a conference table is both to further make the point how much he is under his father's thumb and for Logan to keep the rivalry hot between Kendall and Roman.
I think the same...that it's still all about what Logan has over Kendall. Everything else is totally distorted by the coke and the depression.
-
4
-
-
8 hours ago, blackwing said:
On the whole the show is pretty good about keeping third tier characters on the radar (like the mention of Yoli and Marisa signing a waiver and then an actual brief appearance by Marisa) so it's weird that there's been no further mention of El Rey.
That's a good point re: the writers remembering/keeping Marisa on the radar but not even mentioning El Rey's fate. I'm going to chalk it up to uncertainty in the writers' room over actor availability, perhaps, or maybe some scenes were cut for time?
5 hours ago, Jillybean said:It looks to me like they're trying to start a redemption arc for Mateo. And then we really will have no villain.
Ugh. Not that Mateo's been a great villain (he hasn't been) but what is the show even doing by taking down all of its antagonists one by one?
3 hours ago, Simba122504 said:I would love if more shows drop the tired “secrets and lies” trope. It would be fun if Alicia knew right away and can actually use her resources to help Danny without anyone but them knowing for now. But of course she cannot know and when she finds out, they will have a predictable break up and in S2 (pipe dream) she will spend half of the season giving him the death stare while still being madly in love with him while dating some new character at the same time. 😒
Exactly! Why not work the partners-in-crime angle? The writers (and the characters) could have so much fun with it, and it would make their relationship so much more believable to me, especially now that Danny's girlfriend is showing up.
And there would still be ways to keep tension between Alicia and Danny even while they were sleuthing. What if Alicia, on her own, found evidence that she worried could incriminate Santiago or Javi? Or what if Danny suspected her of doing that? Or what if they came upon a lead and disagreed how to handle it? How much trust would they have between them, and how would that trust ebb and flow? Or what if one or both of them got hurt during the course of the investigation? Or how would they deal with working together closely while also realizing their attraction to each other (made inconvenient because of Danny's girlfriend)?
There are lots of ways this could have gone. Instead, I'm sure it'll play out exactly as you speculate (if the show does get a S2, which sounds iffy). But it could have been better than that.
-
3
-
-
This episode was an improvement over the last one, though I was 100% not here for the juxtaposition of Alicia/Danny's relationship with that of the engaged couple who'd been together for, what was it, 30 years, and in the midst of actual oppression. And then Danny making a big spectacle of kissing Alicia in the middle of the wedding...poor taste, Danny, and WTF, writers?
Nothing else was nearly as bad as that subplot, though why, why, why is everyone on the show so nice to each other and so eager to get over their differences? Mrs. P and Ingrid genuinely like each other now, and Jason has also forgiven Ingrid. In real life, this would be healthy behavior, but it just feels like the show keeps missing opportunities for dramatic tension in favor of making everyone get along.
Other stuff.... The bit with Alicia painting the flowers was genuinely funny and adorable, as was her "room service" montage with Danny, there was some great banter throughout the episode, and I'm glad that the show is getting back over to the mystery surrounding Beatriz.
Another quick moment I liked/appreciated was when Alicia went to visit Javi in rehab, Javi gave his POV on Danny's behavior, and then Alicia smiled and said, "Enough about Danny" and they changed the subject. I thought it was a nice touch for her character that she didn't take Javi's words and immediately begin analyzing Danny's behavior, as other writers might have had her do, turning her visit with Javi into just another prop scene for her love life. It just made her look self-assured and with her focus on her brother, which was where it should be. Again, it's a tiny thing, but it stood out.
-
1
-
-
17 hours ago, Pop Tart said:
Poor Kendall. He’s just so beaten down it seems hard to see how he can recover but I’m actually pulling for him.
Kendall remains the most root-worthy character on the show, I think. Not that that's saying much, but JS's performance is so good, and Kendall's the only one we've seen trying to be a better human being. Yeah, he keeps coming up horrifyingly short, but at least there's some effort there, effort we don't see with the other Roys.
In the scene in the first part of the episode where Logan's lackey is driving Kendall through Iceland and giving him instructions, I couldn't help thinking back to his first scene in the pilot -- also being driven somewhere, but in such radically different circumstances.
6 hours ago, teddysmom said:Jeremy Strong is crushing it.
Agreed. I couldn't take my eyes off of him even though Kendall didn't do anything of his own volition all episode.
4 hours ago, scrb said:I was re-watching some of season 1 and one thing that's striking is that all the siblings want to take over, even Conor to an extent. Shive plays it off like she's above it all, didn't want to be in the family business, as long as her stock was worth a fortune. But even last season, she didn't want one of her brothers to take over.
...
But once he gets over the PTSD, since he's weathered being bullied and gaslit by Logan before, he's probably going to be back in contention. Last season, after Logan beat him in the board vote, he was going to sit down with startups and do his own thing. But then he started doing drugs again and decided to take a run for the old man again.
Once he gets some good coke, maybe find some other hookup than Greg, he's going to come back.
Re: Shiv, in this interview, Sarah Snook says that Jesse Armstrong explicitly told her when they were shooting the pilot that Shiv did not want anything to do with the company, which SS found surprising.
So either JA's plans changed or he was just telling SS only what he felt she needed to know for S1.
Re: Kendall, it struck me that Marcia told him that he was a sweet boy going through tough times that would make him a man. I don't think he was listening at all, but I took that line as foreshadowing.
3 hours ago, Eyes High said:If Season 1 was about breaking Kendall, will Season 2 be about breaking Shiv?
Either that, or Shiv will make it to the top at the very end of this season and S3 will be about how she gets pulled back down. I haven't decided which yet. But, either way, I don't see her time in the sun lasting, this time around, at least.
7 minutes ago, luckylou said:I noticed that Shiv originally proposed to her father he should get rid of the broadcast networks...then more or less promised Tom the chairmanship of the tv network.
I noticed the same thing. That's got to be intentional, so is it just another sign that Shiv honestly doesn't listen/pay any attention to Tom, or is she actively plotting to put him in a position that she'll soon get to take away from him?
While I enjoyed the episode and was riveted as I always am...did anyone else find the premiere less humorous than previous episodes? I think the only time I actually laughed was during the Kendall/Greg exchange. I'm trying to figure out if it really was just as funny and I'm just letting the darkness of Kendall's story affect how much I'm able to laugh at everything else.
-
4
-
-
6 hours ago, blackwing said:
He cares. He's just afraid that he might discover something which implicates her. He doesn't want it to be her. That's when Jason asked if it was better than someone in her family killed Sky instead, and Danny didn't really have an answer to that I thought. He wants to find out what happened to Skye but he's really hoping that Alicia was not involved at all.
I know he still cares, but it seems like his need to be with Alicia is now overtaking his need to find out what happened to Sky. Otherwise, he would push past his fear about what might happen if the Mendozas are involved and continue his investigation, even if it means he can't be with Alicia. Instead, as you noted, when Jason tried to warn Danny, Danny skipped right over that (very real) possibility and headed off to see Alicia.
It just feels way too fast, especially so for a series that's supposed to be hinging in part on the audience's emotional investment in Danny getting justice for his sister.
-
On 8/7/2019 at 8:44 AM, peachmangosteen said:
I'm getting scared because the past 2 or 3 eps haven't been as good as the others were. I really hope this isn't the beginning of a downward spiral.
Exactly my thoughts. I was in "wait and see" mode for the pilot, was drawn in a bit more by the next few episodes, but since then the quality has slipped a lot.
Part of the problem is that, in trying to differentiate this version from the original, they've ended up dropping a lot of the story beats and threads that helped make the original a success.
For example...who, exactly, is supposed to be the scary antagonist? In the original Gran Hotel, the character who is meant to correspond to Santiago and Gigi is ruthless, manipulative, and even dangerous from the very first episode...and that doesn't really let up.
But is anyone scared anymore (if they ever were?) of any of the Mendozas? Both Santiago and Gigi looked a little more villainous in the earlier episodes, especially Gigi (I'm thinking here of that cold bit with Alicia's mother's necklace). Now, it's almost as if the writers have fallen so in love with both actors (and don't get me wrong, they're both great) that they aren't interested in having either character do anything too terrible.
So, instead, they're bringing in other people they can afford to let be the "real" bad guys, like Finn (who I guess is gone now?) and now Gigi's ex. That's really what it feels like, that he's the latest villain-for-hire here to do really bad things so Santiago and Gigi don't have to.
Except the problem is that "Gigi's villainous ex-husband causes trouble" isn't the premise we were promised. We're supposed to be here to find out what happened to Sky and how it ties into the hotel's bad fortune. (We're also supposed to be trying to figure out what big mystery surrounds the life and death of Alicia and Javi's mother, what secrets Gigi and Mrs. P are hiding, but that seems to have been dropped altogether for now.)
Speaking of Sky...did I understand Danny correctly, that he's now less interested in finding out what happened to Sky because he's fallen for Alicia and doesn't want his investigation to get in the way of sleeping with her? WHAT?
Mild spoiler for the corresponding characters of the original Spanish show...
SpoilerThis is one of the changes that has hurt the American version the most: In the original, Alicia finds out who Julio (Danny) is by the end of the very first episode, and he admits that he is there to find out what happened to his sister. From that moment on, they are a crime-solving team. That means 1) it's easy to see why/how they fell for each other and 2) they are both allowed room to openly deal with how Julio's quest to find out the truth about his sister affects his and Alicia's relationship.
I simply do not understand why these writers didn't follow more or less the same trajectory for Alicia and Danny. Alicia is the best written of the characters, and the actress is doing a wonderful job with the role. Why not have Alicia figure out the truth and work with Danny? Having Danny keep these secrets hasn't enhanced their love story at all -- it's just made it far less believable than the original's.
If Danny doesn't care anymore about finding out what happened to his sister, then why should the audience?
And there are other characterization problems, too. Ingrid, like Santiago and Gigi, is one of the original villains who has now been too quickly softened: she fell for Javi too quickly, which apparently made her suddenly nicer, sweeter, and eager to please (practically bursting into tears when Alicia lit into her). I'm sure we're meant to think that the miscarriage is going to harden her and send her down a path of revenge, but, again, why would we care?
Mrs. P's another one whose harder edge has basically been obliterated, with the drugs plot actually going so far as to turn her into a one-note joke for an entire episode.
And I'm not sure what's going on with Mateo. He's probably meant to be the only real villain of the regular cast members, but I'm struggling to care about how he fits into any of these mysteries. He's just...there.
That's not even getting into the sloppy and rushed handling of subplots, like every single story thread tied to the Finn -- not just the balcony drop, but the not-well-thought-out plan for Mrs. P to be a double agent, and the undercooked Alicia/Hotel Employee I Can't Remember The Name Of romance.
I tried not to focus too much here on comparing this show to the original (which I love), because I know that this series needs to be judged on its own. And that's the frustrating thing: by the end of the pilot and certainly by the end of the second episode, I was on board for this show to be its own thing. I was interested in seeing how the writers kept some elements and departed in other ways. I quickly found that I love this show's take on Alicia and Javier, two characters I adored in the original, too. And most of the actors are great and charismatic, and there have been some good one-liners.
Those are the elements that are going to keep me watching tonight...but the plot and characterization issues are undeniable red flags. I'm hoping I'll be able to come back here after tonight's episode to say that those flags are lowered a bit.
-
1
-
5
-
-
1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:
My favorite part of the episode was Javi and Alicia as siblings. Their relationship rings true. This show is doing good so far with its "good" guys. I don't know if anyone remembers the 90s soap Savannah, but the good guys were so galactically stupid I was actively rooting for the villains. Nothing of the sort here. Anyway, the bar scene was my favorite. I liked how Javi called Alicia out about being ridiculous. Imo, the writers use efficiently Alicia's klutzy side to bring a humorous side to her character yet they don't overdo it, not falling into the trap of "look, she can't be a Mary Sue since she can't pour her own ketchup !".
They were adorable together last night. That bit with the menu was great, as was his imitation of Santiago's Alicia-worship. Everything Javi is definitely the highlight of the show for me going forward.
I also like your point about Alicia's awkwardness not being too OTT.
41 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:Haven't had Chance to watch the episode yet.. Been a busy bee.. But I have enjoyed the recaps and comments here... I do have a question.. Wondering if Jason and Alicia/Javier have had any meaningful interactions.. I only ask because their counterparts on the original did have a special relationship but I don't know if they've hinted at it here... I saw nothing about that part of the character in the pilot.. Tho I did see other parts.. So just wondering
I honestly can't remember, so if there's been any interaction, it hasn't been meaningful. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
-
2
-
-
I'm a huge fan of the original Spanish version and was skeptical about the remake, largely because so much of the original's charm comes from the period setting, and I knew once they started developing it as a modern day, Miami-set take that that would be lost. The fact that Eva Longoria is also a fan of the original (and the producers of this show are also the creators of the original) made me a little more excited, but then the trailers hit and...yeah. I was not a fan of the trailers at all, especially the first one. So I lowered my expectations accordingly.
Well, I didn't dislike the pilot, and after last night's episode I can say that I'm officially pleasantly surprised. Both episodes have held my interest; that's a big deal to me because I'm obviously already familiar with the plotline, so what's holding my interest is what these writers are doing and not watching something I already watched play out years ago. A good sign.
So far, Javi's my favorite character, which surprises me for the same reason it doesn't surprise me, if that makes sense, because Javier was my favorite on the original show. For that reason, I figured Javi would be the one I'd be the hardest on (that is, that I would constantly be making unfavorable comparisons to the original), but instead I'm totally charmed by him. The writers and actor have done a great job keeping some of the essentials of the character while adding new elements like the prosthetic leg. And, of course, he's got some of the best lines/reactions.
I'm also impressed by some of the other little touches that I didn't expect. For example, instead of simply having Javi accept Ingrid's lie so they could all move onto the next plot point, the writers worked a little harder for it and showed us his questioning of her and how she'd already gathered the necessary information ahead of time. A small thing, perhaps, but important in showing that Javi's not a naive moron and Ingrid's capable of more intelligent scheming than just attaching herself to the nearest rich guy and hoping for the best.
The show's also delivering on what I was hoping for -- a scene here and there that nods to the original (Danny/Alicia's pool scene in the pilot, for example, and then one of Mateo's scenes last night).
Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time warming up to Danny/Alicia. The chemistry's there, but right now he's just manipulating her.
And there are some other things that took me out of the show (clumsy scenes like Danny having his meltdown at Sky's locker before making sure that Jason had actually left the room -- come on, writers...there were better ways to get Jason from Point A to Point B).
But, overall...not bad. Really not bad. I'm going to keep watching.
-
4
-
S03.E02: Mass in Time of War
in Succession
I would not bet on Shiv staying faithful. Right now, it's easy for her to try to hang on to Tom because their conversation from the beach is still fresh in her mind and everything else around them is so chaotic. But I'm sure she's telling herself that once things calm down, she'll firm things up with Tom and then, once he's placated, just go back to doing what she wants (but maybe more discreetly).
I do think Shiv loves Tom and needs him; they've alluded to how Tom helped her through some rough part of her past, and I'm sure that his help for her back then has convinced her that she needs him at her side now and always. But she's selfish, like all of them are.
Oh, absolutely -- I just meant of the Roy family members. But, yes, Kendall thinking that he can trust them is bonkers.
I can never remember if interviews with actors count as spoilers, so...
In the Collider interview, JCS talks about the positive qualities Gerri genuinely sees in Roman but also says, "In spite of themselves, they have this real almost tenderness or bond, in addition to or in spite of whatever weird sexual thing might be brewing or trying to brew. . . . He’s pushing his agenda, and I’m pushing my agenda, and there’s some little unspoken thing that, in spite of ourselves, we’re getting attached to each other, in some kind of way. We’re becoming friends."
So I do think that she does actually like him.
As for trust...
I wouldn't say that she trusts him 100%, but she trusts him more than she trusts any other member of the family, and the longer they go with Roman demonstrating his affection for and loyalty to her, the more that trust solidifies. I keep going back to the "blood sacrifice" discussion on the yacht and how determined Roman is to get the heat off of Gerri. Shiv was out there suggesting her own husband be the sacrifice, while Roman was busy targeted every single person at the table (with the exception of Kendall, IIRC) in an effort to train Logan's fire anywhere else but on Gerri.
But something else holding them together is that Roman, unlike Kendall and Shiv, has readily admitted to both Logan and Gerri that he's okay not being CEO right now. If he were more ambitious, I don't think the Roman/Gerri alliance would be holding the way it has been.
I do think Kendall has Frank. Frank came up in the Shiv/Tom phone call, too, as a reliable vote against Logan.