The Companion
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Posts posted by The Companion
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2 hours ago, MAK said:
Can it be taken as canon that Sam did get married after Dean died?
Sam had a wedding band type ring on the correct finger when he picked up that boy labelled "Dean," also had one when he sat alone in the Impala with that horrible wig, couldn't really see if it was there in the scene at the table or the death bed scene.
There was no ring when he was by Dean's pyre or in the bunker later. As a side note, he had no ring when he went to Heaven.
I would be surprised to see anyone taking the opposite position. I keep seeing people refer to the "blurry wife." I do think it's fairly clearly implied.
Now how it ended is ambiguous. She wasn't in the pictures when he died or at his deathbed.
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57 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
So they Persuader-ed the show in LatAm? Hahaha.
It's not that unusual in German dubbing to change lines but usually for the reason to keep lip synchronicity because viewers are really, really sensitive to that here And it is attempted to keep the meaning intact.
Given how much I hated the finale, I say we lean into it. Can we edit and dub something more satisfying? Cause I speak French, but I will learn Spanish for a better ending. 😆
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20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:
It's been a long, LONG time since I took any scriptwriting classes, but IIRC the idea was *not* to choreograph every movement (and especially emotions) in a scene. Directors map out actions and camera angles, actors interpret the emotions, unless it's something unusual that the writer specifically wants to highlight. It's especially insulting to actors in a long-running show who have put their own interpretations into the characters to tell them how to react (or how to show their reactions). So you can say, "A devastated Cas pulls Dean close," but not, "with tears in his eyes, Cas holds on to Dean as if trying to hold on to the only joy in his life." That's the kind of stuff that goes into novelizations, not shooting scripts, at least as I was taught.
I'd be a little suspicious of where those leaked pages actually came from.
Is it legit/real? I am not sure but it is pretty subtle for a fake. If someone faked it, why not put in something more gamechanging? There was also a Twitter thread with Adam Williams who did special effects on the show verifying it (but the thread is a complete mess, so I don’t know that his word is dispositive.
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16 hours ago, BabySpinach said:
Looks like it's good stuff, mostly about that newly-revealed script line "Still beautiful, still Dean Winchester," which I FULLY SUPPORT!
This fucking show, lmao. It's been over for three weeks and there's STILL stuff coming out about it and people freaking out on social media.
There are actually several pages that are floating around:
https://mobile.twitter.com/TeamFreeWillBT/status/1337556042171871232
The script doesn't vary substantially from what was delivered but the Cas POV has hit a lot of people hard and there is a lot of discussion about the direct "Cas pulls Dean close," which appears at the awkward cut when Cas pushes Dean sideways weirdly.
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2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:
I missed this. I need to go back and rewatch.
You can see it in the captions here but I can't actually hear it going back to the recording.
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2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:
Another fun bit:
Kripke: Jared, I always wondered what you used to protect your junk during the Nutcracker scene. (In Changing Channels)
Jared: ...
Jensen: A thimble.
😁
There was quite a bit more genital talk than I had anticipated. 😆
I also enjoyed the exchange where someone clarified that there were no happy endings on the set of Supernatural (in reference to the massage) and Jensen said something like "at least not scripted." 😆
Seriously, the absolute chaos once Stacey dropped off was hilarious.
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I really enjoyed last night's panel. There were probably too many people and it had the energy of theater kids at 2am in The Waffle House, but I was laughing so hard I was crying.
A quick rundown of the highlights
- The first 35ish minutes was focused on the cause. Stacey did, in my opinion, a great job of hitting her talking points without it feeling like talking points. She also clearly loves the show and was fangirling out a bit. Who can blame her? The cast asked her questions including, I thought, a really good one about disability accommodations from Shoshannah
- She had not seen the last three episodes and plans to binge them tomorrow after celebrating her birthday today
-after she left, they had cast and fan trivia which was a bit of a mess and hilarious. One of the questions was the name of the herpes drug Sam did the advertisement for which led to a really ridiculous discussion of herpes. Sam was saying subscription, there was discussion of prescription vs. subscription and genital herpes vs. other types. It was ridiculous. Felicia Day said she had once auditioned for a herpes medication commercial.
- JP also told a story about replacing Sebastien Roche's massage therapist at the airport and getting increasingly inappropriate as a prank (under the shirt, low on the back, tweaking nipples?) There may have been some embellishment.
-JA did have a beer. He didn't talk as much but he did talk about how happy he was that they were all a family and how this wasn't the end.
-the panel ended in bloopers
Overall, there wasn't much content and there was almost no discussion of the show, but it was silly and really cool to see so many people affiliated with the show in one place. Everyone seemed relaxed and happy.
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17 hours ago, Airmid said:
Do you know what makes this even worse? That Garth is somehow better than Sam and Dean as a hunter. Garth didn't have Chuck writing for him, was left more or less to his own devices as much as anyone outside of the main 'storyline' could have been. And while Dean gets taken out right after earning his freedom, Garth got to ditz his way through hunting, survived being bitten and got adopted into a werewolf family complete with kids of his own, got to chastise the brothers on their charmed life, especially Dean [I don't outright hate the character but I doubt he could have survived even half the things Dean ever went through] and then got to be the super werewolf/hunter that took out a building full of monsters.
I am so glad that I haven't been nearly as invested in SPN for the past few years like I was back on day one. I fully expected Dabb to do a scorched earth policy to prevent any future stories and wasn't disappointed. I really dislike watching the end of the series wondering what the point of the whole thing was. Or worse, wondering if everything would have been better without the main protagonists ever existing. Sure, Sam and Dean saved people, but multiple universes were wiped out full of life [and who knows where they went, did they cease completely or are those souls in the empty?], there's still bad things running around on earth, a lot of the destruction that was wreaked was unfortunately just because Sam and Dean existed. In exchange for the massive loss of life just on earth prime, we get a slightly better heaven. I'm not sure about hell - does it exist?
So, in the end, from a show that was suppose to be about family, we get a finale that rips the main family apart while a creature that isn't even three years old is ruling over everything even if he is given to fits of rage, is naïve, and falls for the simplest cons while showing poor judgement over and over again. I really, really dislike what happened to Chuck's character [not even touching on Amara here], but I'm not sure what exactly was gained for the rest of creation or why Chuck decided after billions of years that the ending he was trying to force was the one he wanted. It all felt like some illusion - a hand wave that all this really is better without providing any reasoning for that outside of a heaven upgrade.
That does make it worse. Thanks. 😭😆
13 hours ago, PAForrest said:Garth was Dabb's creation, he was another of his personal Mary Sues, and the clear intention was to show he was naturally better than the two creations that weren't Dabb's, and that he didn't care about.
But yeah, the whole Chuck thing is problematic AF because it really does appear like the showrunner just decided to go from week to week picking and choosing what was Chuck and what was not. And sorry, with a plot like that, lame as it was, it shouldn't work that way, and it doesn't. It's either all or nothing, you can't just use it against the characters you don't like. And that was the problem - well, one of many problems.
There was no point at the end, and that's what makes the finale feel like it doesn't fit at all - like it's from another series that someone tried to Frankenstein onto another show. Because look at that episode - did literally anything that happened in the last 15 years need to happen to get to that sad bleak ending? Aside from the brothers hooking up together to go hunting again in the Pilot, and the introduction of Bobby at the end of season one, nothing else needed to have happened to them. Even Gack didn't need to happen - he was especially unnecessary since he never removes monsters from the world.
Dean could have been killed on that milk run that Jensen doesn't think he'd be killed on (because vamps, Dean had those covered!), had a pathetic funeral that no one attends, and then gone to heaven. Didn't need any explanation as to what heaven was or wasn't. Just boom, dead, show up, The End.
And since Sam didn't do anything with his hunting life after Dean died - again, boom, Dean dead, Sam moves, hooks up with broodmare, has a kid, looks sad the whole time, dies, goes to heaven. The End.
What did we need to know from the last 15 years, or even the last season, going into this episode? Nothing really.
Yeah, it's old school - like it's the series finale after the first two or three years if the show had been cancelled that far back.
If I didn't have to watch the intervening seasons to understand the finale, you have done something wrong. You have failed to move the story forward or you have gone backwards
45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:My Dean-girl heart aside, all of my problems with the ending come down to lack of logic and poor characterization. If you take the outline: Dean dies on a vampire hunt, Sam lives out a seemingly normal life, Jack has fixed Heaven and Castiel is saved from the Empty, it works, on paper. But the details. Oh, the devil is in the details.
- vampires are supernaturally strong and they were outnumbered. so one of them getting the jump on Dean isn't horrible or OOC, but...
- they had vampire disabling bullets one scene before, why on earth didn't they use them immediately in the barn?
- Jack is omniscient now and even had the power to fix Heaven, and they specifically said he was going to be hands-off, so he couldn't save Dean, but...
- he saved Castiel. We're supposed to believe that he saw Cas, Dean and Sam as his family, his fathers, and he saved Castiel from a fate Cas agreed to, but he can't let Dean recover from a stab in the back a couple weeks into their new lives?
- even Sam, they spent so much time building this relationship with Eileen over the season. Cue the flash forward, to Sam with a young son and omg, yes! Saileen live on! but...
- there is no indication who the mother of his kid is, all the photos around him are old ones, or with the kid. In fact, it seems that Sam dies old and with only his son left to care.
Devil in the details, indeed.
All if this
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18 minutes ago, PAForrest said:
Uh, no, never heard that. And did Jared not noticed the rando female behind him on the porch? Sure, she was obviously some extra or somebody they pulled from BTS to stand there in a dress and be blurred out; but while she may have been just some broodmare and not exactly a soulmate love interest, Sam was clearly still hooked up with a female who we assume is little Dean's mother.
But Dean isn't seemingly happy at all. He's clearly not even happy when he arrives in bleak boring heaven. That's what I do not get about fans who legit think Dean dying horribly and scared, too young, and very clearly not at all ready, is all Dean wants. Seriously, WTF that anyone could think that way, especially on the heels of last week's episode that these same fans seemed to love where it was all the guys being free to live their lives, and very obviously being happy about that - including if not ESPECIALLY Dean. What show are you watching?
Then we open up on this episode with Dean having adopted a dog, apparently applying for a job, being thrilled to find a pie festival, etc. Where the hell does a person come up with Dean's horrific death in this episode, so soon after feeling truly free, being anything Dean wanted for himself, or that a fan would want for him? That's disturbing to me.
Dean's end is a tragedy. And frankly so is Sam's clearly tunnel-visioned unhappy long life. And ending a 15-year beloved series about always fighting the good fight on a bleak tragic note was a calculated error of epic proportions.
Did we get stellar performances out of it - yes, of course. But it's a tragedy - and tragedy for most people isn't a fun uplifting story.
At this point I am hoping Jensen is serious about a 6-episode fix-it. I don't care when it happens, but if it happens, I'll be there for it with bells on. And if it's cold, I'll wear something warmer.
Y'all are making me feel so much better because this is exactly it. He got free will and was exploring what that meant and then was unceremoniously killed. That is not a poetic ending or a satisfying one.
Meanwhile Sam "carries on" I suppose, but he doesn't seem to have a particularly happy life. And in the end, he is surrounded not by the life he builds, but by the people who died before him. His spouse is nowhere to be found. Not at his bedside or on the walls behind him. His son is the only one attending to him even though he is clearly at end of life.
Tragedy has its place, but even then people typically want it to be part of a satisfactory arc. The story has to make sense narratively. Here, the story is: oh you finally had the chance to make like on your own terms? Boom, you lost it. When you are telling a story, if you want it to be a worthwhile one, there should be payoff on the elements that you set up previously. The ending here took a u-turn and threw out a ton of character development in the process.
I had heard in the past that Sam had speculated that Sam could be bi in prior panels, so I don't think its a new concept being offered here. I think it's something he has previously considered.
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20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:
I think the underlying notion of this Finale really bothers me more and more.
Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).
This. It's a combination of "they will be better off without me" and "I am better off dead."
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8 minutes ago, Binns said:
My thought was that Sam went on that last hunt in Austin...the werewolves...and realized he couldn’t keep doing it. Or maybe he passed that hunt off to the Waywards. I loved that he said that Sam knew Dean would be pissed if Sam kept hunting after his death.
re the funeral and lack of speech...it was a montage, not much spoken except a couple words to Miracle in the bunker and the convo on the phone. So I guess a choice, but not a good one and OOC for Sam. Thinking to Cas and Charlie, etc. I’m wondering if Sam was so shut down that he couldn’t get out the words, much less tell anyone else to come.
the pandemic has really fucked me up about this because all I can think about is how much MORE we could have had. Then I end up thinking...well, it’s still Dabb, so it still might have been just as sparse and depressing. Actors oh Twitter are saying they were not contacted (pre shutdown) about the heaven scene. And saying they would have been willing to quarantine for one scene. Some of them live in Canada. Frustrating. I guess we’ll never really know unless JP keeps spilling the beans.
JP is probably pretty locked down with his employment contract. JA and MC are bound by CNDAs, so I suspect the story of the original finale plan won't be out completely until those expire unless the CW feels it can mitigate the backlash somehow.
I feel like there were still ways to integrate the other characters. Ignored texts because he was depressed would have been a great way to deal with it. You could have seen the family rallying around him. It would have made things so much less depressing to have a reminder that both were loved.
I would have been better with (but still mad) a scene of him surrounded by earthside friends cut with a scene of Dean being greeted by friends in heaven. Then he gets in a car and you can end the same way. But I am not sure it was COVID that stopped that. Because I think there were ways to still get that across conceptually. I mean, it felt emptier than the episode where the entire Earth was empty.
28 minutes ago, Binns said:Not sure how kosher it is to post stuff from cons that were 1:1 or meet and greets? But someone asked JP about his relationship and he said it was purposefully left vague who Sam’s “partner/co-parent” was which I found interesting. He didn’t specify wife or mother.
Hey, the writers had a chance to make it Eileen. If JP wants to leave it open for interpretation, I am actually good with that. It's a fairly mild recon compared to like half the show. 😆
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On 11/19/2020 at 10:28 PM, ahrtee said:
I understand Covid, and yes, Sam could have wanted to mourn alone. But the the first two times mentioned above, neither surviving Winchester accepted the death, and so didn't want the finality of a funeral, and the third time there was no body, since Dean wasn't actually dead. In fact, neither one ever got a hunter's funeral, no matter how many times (or how) they died.
Even Mary got a full hunter's send off, and I would think Donna and Jody at least, plus Garth and the WS, should have been there. Or did Sam even tell anyone this time? They could have had a long shot of the pyre with doubles for them surrounding Sam. At the very least, I would have liked some mention--maybe a VO phone conversation with Jody saying something like, "yeah, I'm OK. No, I don't want company. Thanks."
The other thing that struck me as particularly odd was that, in Sam's crowded mantlepiece with all those pictures, there was no wedding picture, no picture at all of a wife, even with his son. Maybe his "happily ever after" wasn't all that happy, and they were divorced? (Otherwise, I would wonder that Sam wouldn't want to spend eternity with her rather than Dean.)
In the end, it was so depressing and isolated to me. Not even name drops. Why have all the Eileen stuff if we don't even know if she is back? We don't know the fate of Charlie and her girlfriend. And Sam looked so defeated in that montage. He doesn't die surrounded by friends and family. He dies with one family member and pictures of the dead.
On 11/20/2020 at 1:38 AM, Slovenly Muse said:Oh my god, you guys, I just realized! With heaven's walls all torn down, Sam's finally getting reunited with everyone he's ever slept with! I wonder if they formed a club up there. The "Sam Winchester's penis got me killed" weekly garden party!
This is the quality content I need.
Maybe the reason Sam's spouse was a vague outline was because he did witchy things to make her invisible to anyone so she didn't get struck by the penis curse.
On 11/20/2020 at 9:56 AM, Dobian said:Two theories on Sam's wife at the end.
It was Eileen, and the actress wasn't available. I find this implausible since she was there about three episodes from the end. She also would have been clearly shown in that family portrait if it was her but the actress wasn't available.
It was someone else. We know that Billie was going to kill everyone who was supposed to be dead. Eileen was supposed to be dead. It turned out that God killed literally everybody, but when Jack brought people back I suspect that everyone who was supposed to be dead stayed dead.
Here is the thing. They could have EASILY shown it to be Eileen by having them sign something to her. That's all it would have taken to at least make that storyline relevant. So the writers decided that it didn't matter, which again leads to the feeling that nobody mattered outside of Sam and Dean, which I hate.
On 11/20/2020 at 11:25 AM, BabySpinach said:See, that was my exact problem with it. Dean only ever saw this ending for himself because he had such low self-worth and felt that a bloody end was all he deserved. But we saw that change in 15.19 as he openly acknowledged for the first time that he was more than just a killer. Yet his death in this episode, right after their victory over God, implies that his first belief was the correct one, that he really was only good for dying young on the job. And that's depressing as hell because it renders any of his progression toward a healthier self-regard utterly moot. He was enjoying life and freedom, he had a new dog, he was still saving people, and he deserved many more years of that.
This. He deserved happiness. Killing him so soon after everything was narrative unsatisfying. He wanted free will. Then he never gets to explore it.
On 11/20/2020 at 12:07 PM, Myrelle said:And again, the original came out on top for me, and that even with Ben not being Dean's biological child. In fact, I think by giving Sam an actual biological child, they showed us that there had to have been some moments when Sam had truly and genuinely moved on and experienced real joy and happiness with Dean gone from his life-and not just because Dean wanted that for Sam, but because Sam wanted it for himself, too.
As a mother by adoption and embryo donation/adoption, I can assure you that biology is not required for moments of true happiness or a real and meaningful parent-child relationship.
On 11/20/2020 at 9:58 PM, tessathereaper said:I agree, I don't see Dean having peace. Heaven has no growth, no change. Sure the walls are down, you can see people but its not a place of LIVING, not really, it's still a place of memory. Dean got there, and because he was no allowed to enjoy his freedom and create his own new life, he literally has nothing do but wait for Sam to show up. He only has the past and nothing more. Dean did not get peace, he got stagnation. He never got to live life or enjoy his freedom.
That thing on the desk, was apparently a job application so anyone who thinks Dean had no plans and no hopes for the future is wrong, I don't see it as a win that a character who believed he was worthless and was going to die and just had to make sure his brother was safe, was shown that is all he was good for, because he never got to enjoy any of the life he fought for and he got to go to heaven and wait while Sam got to live. I'm not particularly interested in the "its like real life", this is a fictional story and lots of things that happen in real life are not at all satisfying as stories if they are told exactly as they happen. That's one of the reasons why even "true stories" get tweaked a bit because hey it may be life, but really kind of sucks as part of a story.
Why even have the employment contract? That detail is so cruel.
You have this character development where Dean says: hey, I don’t have to be what Dad made me. I can do more than kill things. I am loved.
And then you kill him on a hunt his father started and send him to a heaven where he is almost entirely alone.
On 11/21/2020 at 3:50 PM, Bobcatkitten said:I'm glad they changed heaven but I absolutely would have hated John welcoming them. They sanitized that character enough in Lebanon. He was a horrible father. Bobby was there for him way more and it was perfect for him to welcome him.
Oh yeah. Congrats. You get to spend eternity with the man who abused and neglected you would have been worse for me.
On 11/21/2020 at 4:20 PM, McKinley said:Well, I feel like these final episodes encapsulated all that was best, and worst, about Supernatural. Seems fair enough.
I am really, really glad that they fixed heaven. I was prepared to be super upset if they did not do that. Having Cass in charge there is perfection.
Did not like the ending, though. My personal ending for the boys is this: I can stay with the writers' vision up through Jack taking over as god, and fixing heaven. Jack seals heaven and hell so demons and angels may no longer come to Earth. Jack wipes out all of the monsters on Earth. So the boys have literally saved the entire world, forever. The boys are then free to move on with "normal" lives, explore new jobs, new passions, build families. Given how male-centric this whole universe has been, I imagine Dean raising a whole gaggle of beautiful little daughters. The boys grow old together, enjoying one another's families. The end.
Thank you to the cast and crew for the ride! It's been fun!
Yeah, Jack becomes God but allows monsters free reign to kill parents and kidnap kids. He saves Cas but doesn't even leave them a voicemail, send a carrier pigeon, etc.
I have taken days to even come post because I get upset every time I think about it. I was left asking what was the point? Why have Cas confess his feelings then barely deal with it? Why are we supposed to find this death satisfying when they have undone so many? What was the point of the Kevin stuff? Is he still wandering the earth?
But mostly, you have Dean who survived trauma and who has believed for years his only value is as a sacrifice for others. He believes he is good at killing and that's it. We have watched him throw himself into the hunt time and time again when he is depressed, just waiting for the end. He has said over and over this only ends one way. Then we see something fundamental in him change. He wants to live. He wants to be free. He wants to explore what happens now that he isn't being controlled by Chuck.
And then he is immediately killed in an arbitrary way. And there is no payoff. Instead he is back where he started. Alone except for his brother and his car. His entire family and all of his friends unmentioned and barely acknowledged.
I get it. COVID. But you couldn't have a montage of him doing things? Talking to vague outlines of people like Sam's wife that are implied to be his friends and family?
And as I said previously, I wasn't a Destiel fan. I have only watched the show for the last year and I didn't ship them. But to go there and barely address it (and to have Dean basically shrug at the beginning of the episode). That was terrible. And it does ultimately make Castiel's story deeply unsatisfying to me. And it does make me as angry as when they killed Charlie and threw her in a bathtub. I won't go into a long rant about it, because I am just exhausted by the whole thing. But I am tired of dead gay characters. I am tired of women being killed to make the men feel something like they are props (Eileen). I am tired of stories that say the best deeply traumatized people can hope for is a good death.
Anyway, thanks for sticking with me over the last year. As unsatisfied as I am with the ending, I enjoyed the ride. This show was there for me in the middle of the night with my baby. It made me laugh and cry. I ended up really loving these characters and all the amazing passionate fans. Thanks for welcoming me with open arms so late in the game.
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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:
Amara deserved better.
Also the Reaper was the only female character in the entire episode. So I just role my eyes when people try to say Dabb's era is better in this regard.
Hey, there were some extras who were women. 😆
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So, wait. Do we think Jack brought back everyone Chuck killed or just the final snapees? Like, did the world of OtherDean and ManbunSam get restored? What about Becky and her family? SOMEONE PLEASE TELL BECKY ABOUT DESTIEL. 🤣
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4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:
And we're supposed to be happy with this because McNougat (aka the writers) proclaimed that she was totally content, you guys! Regardless of all her previously established character, she's just peachy being a voiceless, bodiless extension of a man! I hope she gives him cosmic indigestion for the rest of eternity.
Yep. We don't even need to hear it from her! They would have worked it in but they needed 2,000 establishing shots of empty places and random extras, 5,000 repetitions of the same line by Chuck and Mark Pellegrino.
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4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:
I think the only thing I'm truly angry and frustrated about is Amara's fate. Given her character and the themes of her story, I can't imagine a more insulting end than stewing for the rest of eternity in Mayonnaise Boy's guts. She was far more interesting and enjoyable and compelling than he ever was, and she ends up being transferred from Chuck to Jack like a blood transfusion. Didn't she really enjoy her life in Reno? Trying new things? Loving humanity (especially Dean)? Why the hell would she ever be content to lose her own agency and personhood to be subsumed forever by some mediocre, bland three-year-old?
I just can't wrap my head around this. It's too depressing to think that Amara's power, hard-won freedom, and self-actualization amounted to nothing.
Agreed. She was trapped by her brother for centuries, finally saw some good in the world and then was convinced by her shitty brother that everything was trash (with no perspective) and trapped again.
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3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:
The scene was just SO weird. They couldn’t throw in a line that their people were back? I assume they want to save it for next week, but it sorta made it look like they weren't at all worried about any of their friends. Between that and actively ignoring Cas's death in the scene with Jack, the entire end of the episode was off.
Also, there for a minute in a moment of boredom and hysteria, I wondered what would happen to the internet if they just kept making ships canon by having the guys kiss. Like, no thanks, but a tiny part if me just wants to watch the internet burn itself down. 😆
I am growing increasingly convinced Castiel comes back next week because they failed to address it and foreclose the possibility in this episode. Then again, we are sort of always stuck with the same question: intentional or bad writitng?
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5 hours ago, Jediknight said:
Yep, and without them Jack follows in Lucifer's footsteps. Thanks to Sam, Dean, Cas, and Mary, he never wanted that. He only wanted to be like those that he considered his true family, he wanted to help people. I know I'm in the minority here when it comes to liking this. When it came to Jack, the debate of nature vs nurture, wasn't even close. Nature stood no chance when Dean, Sam, Cas, and Mary are the ones doing the nurturing.
It also played into the Winchesters' motto of "Screw destiny." Their free will caused Cas to rebel and exercise his free will, and thanks to them Jack chose to be good by his own free will. Free will crushed destiny.
They didn't kill a big monster at the end, and they didn't kill Chuck, but they saved everybody and are responsible for the win, just not in the glory way. They did the heavy lifting for that moment to happen.
You are now free to punch me in the face for my take.
I honestly like the take and think the bones of a satisfying story are in there. I just think the execution was terrible. You have to sort of dig for that story and tilt your head.
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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:
They already did this with Metatron.
The whole resolution was ridiculous, and made worse by the exposition trope. I am still sitting here shaking my head. It's so much worse than I anticipated. It's... it's boring.
So boring. And so so choppy. Like someone took the outline and smushed it together.
1 hour ago, PAForrest said:What the holy hell was that?
So they really never veered from their original end with Princess Jackie Poo Sue as the ultimate Deus Ex Machina, and the Winchesters ... well they were allowed to be there to do and be nothing and witness Dabb's pet as the lone hero of this 15 year show. Wow, that was petty. That's about the nicest description I have for it.
Nothing about what will happened to the tortured angels and demons in the Empty, no fixing Heaven - it's still a shitty memorex place. No Garden, no nothing, no peace when the guys do finally die.
And the Winchesters go back to doing what exactly next week? I guess Cas really is just rotting in the Empty.
There was no soul or emotion in this episode. It was dull and utterly one-dimensional.
Agreed. Hell, Cas barely got a few sad lines. I was sitting there thinking his sorta kid is now God and can't bother to bring him back?
4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:I was so bored.
I still can't believe how bored I was. 😶
That is the worst part. I am used to being mad or irritated by poor writing, but this was boring.
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26 minutes ago, Frost said:
Why does the Empty have to follow Death's orders? Castiel got sucked into the Empty because of his deal with Death to save Jack's life, correct? But now that he's there, who says he has to stay? The Empty wants revenge on Death/Billie - which it can now get because Castiel maneuvered Billie into getting sucked into the Empty along with him - and then wants to go back to sleep. Isn't Castiel tramping around the Empty for eternity going to disturb the second part of that plan? I'm not so sure an alive Castiel won't get spit back out by the finale.
Cas made a deal with the empty. Jack woke Castiel whose consciousness woke The Empty. He then made a deal with The Empty.
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55 minutes ago, PAForrest said:
Exactly. Look, Cas knows Dean loves him - he called Dean the most loving human being he will ever know FFS. He knows Dean considers him his best friend and family - and Dean loves his friends and family. There is no doubt in Castiel's mind that Dean loves him, as he loves Sam, etc., etc. There's also no doubt in the audience's minds after all these years.
So Cas wanting what he knows/thinks he can't have is something else entirely - it's romantic love. I honestly believe this is what Berens intended. And since I do believe that was his intention, I also think those stage directions that are entirely unnecessary to include, given these two men have been acting together for 10 years and don't need to have their characters' motivations spelled out for them on paper, are put there to pass WB muster.
This is the Destiel moment, it's as on-the-nose as it's going to get, and it's done. But in order for the WB to sign off on it, the declaration had to come from the supernatural character, and the human lead wasn't going to respond back for whatever reason - doesn't see Cas that way, in shock, no time, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't really matter. At this point it's up to each individual viewer to decide. But I do believe those stage directions are there less for the actors and more for the CW and WB.
Agreed. His deepest truth is: I love you.
Also, I know there is a lot of talk about his lack of reaction but I want to give JA some credit. He looked absolutely destroyed on the floor. I personally think he was supposed to be shocked and also terrified of losing Cas.
Look, I agree with a lot of the people here about the lack of foundation in the story. It's why I was never a Destiel shipper. I don't see the same lines of a love story as, say, Queliot (don't get me started). But he looks Dean in the eye and unequivocally says: I love you. He makes it clear that he thought he couldn't have that love and this is him saying it.
I also just feel obligated to point out that sexuality is not the same as who you have had sexual relationships with or shown externally apparent interest in. Honestly, Cas has barely shown interest in anyone and doesn't really have any real relationships beyond the guys. Showing interest in women doesn't preclude him from being interested in a man, and he already lacks gender in the human sense. Though I understand that the intent above was probably more to say the writers failed to establish that he might have a romantic interest in a man, and therefore the foundation was not there, I just wanted to point that out.
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13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:
Oh, IA completely that the writing meant to indicate something deeper than "best friend" or even brother, and Berens knew damn well how people would take it. The definition of platonic is actually: an intimate, close friendship without sex. It doesn't mean no attraction or no deeper emotional feelings. But human straight males as stereotyped on TV and in movies, seems that the only version of "intimate" with friends they can accept is sexual. (I think the traditional male hierarchy of "friends" is: coworkers/neighbors, poker buddies, drinking buddies (where you can complain/brag about your actual sexual relationships), then sex. Nothing in between.) There doesn't seem to be any room for "romantic" without sex, which is why Dean was stunned (so to speak) by Cas's very emotional declaration of love. I'm pretty sure that Cas didn't mean sexual love (as I said before, it's not a big priority with angels); but it's pretty obvious that Dean took it that way, which was deliberate by the writer, to give the viewers something to talk about/argue over.
The point is that he has an intimate, close relationship without sex already. Dean calls him family. What he wants is something more. I don't actually think that has to be sexual, but I don't think it necessarily isn't either. However, I think it has to be romantic. Something beyond brother/family. By virtue of the words themselves. Sorry, I don't see this as ambiguous.
Now, was it earned? Was it well done? Should it have happened. Those are all firmly matters of opinion. But I do think it is a romantic declaration. With some desired intimacy beyond what the currently have. Otherwise, not having what he truly wants makes no sense.
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47 minutes ago, Frost said:
I didn't get a romantic or sexual love vibe from Castiel's speech to Dean. It read of admiration, respect, and a deep love of Dean's true being - his soul. Like looking into the eyes of a baby - your heart could just explode with love, and there's nothing romantic or sexual about it, just a love that encompasses your entire being. That's how it came across to me.
He starts the speech talking about wanting what he can't have. I don't see how you can read that as anything other than romantic. He says: "I never found an answer because the one thing I want is something I know I can’t have."
Dean has expressed love for Castiel in a non-romantic way multiple times. He's family or his brother. I don't see how you can interpret the speech as wanting platonic love.
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I am not even a Destiel shipper but they sold the fuck out of that scene and I can barely breathe. Phew. I don't know if they bring him back. I actually hope they do. Something is happening in The Empty after all. I hope so, because it really sucks for the shippers to wait this long only to have him immediately killed. But the scene was powerful. And my heart is suddenly broken.
I have to assume they will bring back the 100 characters who got smoked, so I can't get too worked up about them.
I didn't love what they did with Billie. She became a bit mustache twirly. But I can live with it because I didn't want to devote the screentime to establish it better.
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S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)
in Supernatural
Just like everything else in the finale, it's criminally underdeveloped.