Darren

It's only 1983 in present time on the show. So the SU collapse is quite a ways off. I'd love to see the show eventually get there, but would likely have to run at least two more seasons (with some time jumps) to get there.

One of my favorite parts of this show is the long, pregnant stares; the loaded pauses. There were several great moments of this sort tonight: Elizabeth watching Philip on the payphone; Oleg staring down Arkady when he said "they don't just execute people for nothing." So much of TV is rush-rush, get the dialog in fast as we can - and comes across as totally unbelievable. But this show gets it right. So much of life is unsaid, or said in the unsaid.

Like you say yourself, this show looks to have at least one more year ahead of it. So no need to kill characters off just for the sake of resolving story lines.

I'll tell you one thing, from a story-telling perspective, I doubt they're going to kill off pastor and his wife this week after killing off Nina last week. I think they'll string this out a little longer.

Sure. I don't doubt that Paige is a Soviet citizen by birthright. I personally have three citizenships. I'm just saying that based on her personal history, "traitor" is the wrong word. "Enemy", "threat", "potential danger" all work, but not "traitor".

Paige was born and raised an American. And she's never sworn allegiance to the Soviet cause. So, technically, she cannot be considered a traitor. The Soviets might see her as a potential threat, and as an enemy, but by definition - not a traitor.

As a young adult I was visiting Berlin soon after the Wall fell, and was able to walk right into East Berlin. I still remember how stark the contrast was between east and west. I ended up coming home with a piece of the wall (yes, it was legit, not from someone's backyard :). I also ended up with a soldier's cap from one of the east German guards. That hat looked a lot like the hats the guards who executed Nina were wearing last night.

I know someone who was in the Vietnam war. And I know he still has nightmares over things that happened there - things he was told to do by his government. My point is not to question that nasty things happen in wars (cold or not). Of course they do. But it destroys people. Even the people doing the killing. That's what I want to see more of with Philip.

Yes. Exactly this. This is what is missing for me. I've very familiar with Americanized Philip. I want to know more of who he was before, and thus understand more of the predicament he's in now. Also, re: the showrunners saying he believes in the cause and is a faithful soldier at heart, that's all well and good, but if they have to explain themselves, rather than revealing the characters though the narrative, well then they're not doing their jobs entirely. Kind of like having to explain a joke. But at what point does a sane human being question all the innocents falling by the wayside, with their loved ones paying the cost over and over again, just so your family gets to stay alive and in-tact? It doesn't matter to me so much that the killings were strategic - yes they were, minus in the pilot episode, which was personal. What matters to me is that eventually a compassionate human being would recognize that this is not justified. I do agree that you can't just have "normal" embedded spies and a compelling show. They have upped the drama, and they (the showrunners) admit that. But I think the killing takes away from the enjoyment and from the audience resonating with the characters. If nothing else, I'd like to see A LOT more turmoil in Phil and Liz. I mean, Philip had more angst about the bully he stoned in his youth than all the completely innocent bystanders he's killed since being in America. Elizabeth told the older lady in the mailbot repair shop that this was all done to ultimately make the world a better place. You sensed her anguish in that scene. And it made her feel real and compelling. I'm still waiting for that scene with Philip.

Right. But it's one thing to feel conflicted over fighting for a cause you believe in and in doing what's best for your family. It's another thing entirely to not really even believe in the cause at all. I feel like it's leaning so far towards the latter that it makes his character less compelling, as well as their relationship that much less believable. I mean, he's murdering people on a fairly regular basis. All for a cause he doesn't even really feel is just? What about what's best for those innocent victims and their families? That begins to sound so disassociated as to be psychopathic. And again, as I've said before, would Elizabeth even be in love with someone who doesn't really even believe in the cause? I don't think so. She is far too zealous for that. She loved Gregory because, among other things, he was a zealot like her. Again, I love this show to death. But this is a character oversight issue that's been a thorn in my side since the beginning.

So... in light of recent conversations on this forum about Philip's underlying motivations, he made it pretty clear last night. He said, he'd choose to be "normal" - if the choice were his. Sure sounds like a man who no longer believes enough in the revolution to commit his life to it. His love for Elizabeth is largely all that's keeping him engaged. But as I've said before, that's kind of problematic - from a character point of view, because it's hard to see Elizabeth loving him if he's no longer a revolutionary at heart. Hmmm... Not sure about the character development here.

Off the top of my head here: Elizabeth has specifically criticized Reagan. She's also made comments about bringing up a teenager "in this country", strongly hinting the priorities are way off. And she took Paige down to the hood to talk about social justice first hand. She also specifically said, after Philip said positive things about the US, that "'easier' doesn't mean 'better'".

Question: Can anyone remember even one derogatory comment Philip's made about the American style of government? I can't think of one off the top of my head. And that's partly what irks me.

You're right. He did say that. And in that moment I was like - tell me more! It matters... how? Why? Come one, give me some more of Philip's motivation! I hope they explore this more in future episodes. He's too genuine a guy to do this only because he's told to. So I want to know more.

But, that's the thing, I find Philip far less compelling (and slightly unbelievable) if he's doing this just because he "fell into it" as a result of a damaged childhood. What makes Elizabeth compelling as a character is that she REALLY believes in the cause. She's willing to bend over backwards, sacrificing herself time and time again because she's so passionate. That's easier for me to understand and resonate with than Philip, who kills innocents merely because... what... it's his job? In that light he's no better than a hired hitman. If he doesn't believe in the underlying idealogical principles then he's far less compelling than Elizabeth. And to be honest, if he really doesn't believe in the underlying cause then I don't even find it believable that Elizabeth would love him. She's a die-hard of the highest order.

Right. But he didn't just inform her that it worked differently in America. He went on to say that the Soviet system lacked transparency and basically flat out lied to its own people (unlike in America, in other words). He reminded her how long it took for the Soviet gov't to even admit a former leader had died there - and it was like, weeks. You're right that that's the only time he mentioned transparency per se, but I meant that there have been other times where he has complimented the positives of the American system. What I find lacking is a mention of his underlying motivation for the cause. I would have loved a scene where he sat down with Paige and explained, from his more down to earth perspective, why he believed in the Soviet system. I feel like he could reach Paige in a way Elizabeth (ever the hard-ass and fanatic) couldn't. But that scene never happened. So, all that is to say, while absolutely loving, loving, loving the show (seriously, it's the best ever), I do wish they would speak to Philip's motivation at some point. All it would take is a flashback scene to a time when he saw the underlying good in the cause (personally saw it, I mean). But so far that hasn't happened. So he ends up looking like someone caught between a rock and hard place a lot - only I'm not sure exactly why he feels fully stuck there. I understand the tension from the one side, but not the other.

Yeah, I see it differently than you. I don't think Philip's commitment to the cause is at all clear, nor his love for the "motherland". What I see is plenty of confusion and angst about the crazy, violent upbringing he suffered there. And I see him remind Elizabeth on many an occasion that the Soviets don't value transparency like the Americans do. He's probably preached to her five times or so about that. But, that said, you do bring up a good point re: his son who's still in the Soviet system.

First off: I absolutely love this show. Best show in the history of television in my mind - and I'm hard to please. :) That said, there's just one thing that's getting to me: Philip's motivation. In episode 1 he seriously considered going to the FBI and making a deal. That option seems considerably better now, when you think about where things now stand with Paige and such. And yet, he keeps going? And yet, he even talks about going back to Russia? I understand that the one thing keeping him with the KGB may be his legit love for Elizabeth. He knows she's not ready to abandon the cause - yet. And doing so would drive a, perhaps irreconcilable, wedge between them. But still... I expect to see more turmoil in him - especially as innocents die by his hands over and over again. Bottom line: Something about his motivation feels off. If nothing else, we could use an episode with a back-story that explains some motivation of his that has, as of yet, not been mentioned. Give me something, please. Something to understand why he would be stomaching all this at this point.