Sighed I
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Posts posted by Sighed I
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1 hour ago, Kathemy said:
I've been thinking, might it be a plot on P&E's behalf to get Gabriel to think twice about leaving?
Appealing to his heart. Interesting theory. May be...
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2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:
I think it was purely about family. Gabriel basically is their family, Philip was sad about not knowing his own, they're going to miss Gabriel. He's leaving, so it's not like he's going to be mentoring her as a spy. It's showing her themselves by letting her meet this guy.
Fair enough, and you're probably right. I guess I assumed that while they care about Gabriel a great deal, they can't fully trust him.
Don't get me wrong; I like Gabriel a lot and it's very clear he cares for them deeply, like a father would. That's why he bends the rules from time to time and feels so guilty about lying to them. But he still works for the Center. I'm not saying he would, for example, kill them or have them killed. I suspect he wouldn't and might even help them, even if it costs him his life, but there's no way for E/P to know that for sure. I've always figured that plays in the back of their minds, so they hold back a bit when it comes to those things which make them particularly vulnerable, and nothing makes them more vulnerable than their kids.
QuoteThe Centre didn't kill either of the Connors kids. Claudia said they were broken up about it and Claudia's pretty honest about these things. Not that they wouldn't kill children in general, but they're not targeting Illegals kids.
They didn't pull the trigger, or even arrange to have them killed, but they created the conditions by recruiting Jared against his parents' explicit wishes. For me that makes them responsible for the resulting carnage. It has been a while since I've seen the episode, so saying they had no problem with what happened was a poor choice of words. I understand on a personal level it was very upsetting. What I meant was that the Center decided recruiting this kid was a good idea and they were going to make it happen because they're right, they know better than his own parents. But they weren't right, and two important agents and their kids died because they had to do it their way.
It reminds me a little of P/E feeling guilty about the people they've killed or whose lives they wrecked. They feel terrible about it, and might make minor adjustments to minimize the damage as best they can, but they can't change the fundamental elements or goals of the missions they're assigned and they continue to do as their told (with good reason, of course), despite whatever misgivings they might have. Whatever damage that results because of that choice will still be on them. The Center may be devastated by the loss of this family, and they've made adjustments with their recruiting of Paige as a result, but nothing's really changed. Despite the strong objections of at least one parent, they moved forward, business as usual.
QuoteThe Centre says she does have a choice--and I don't think it's a lie. I mean, Paige knows she doesn't have a choice about lying to protect her parents since that's already her reality, but she doesn't have to become a spy for them. Sure the Centre could decide to threaten her parents to make her etc., but I could just as easily believe that they would be smart enough to know they can't force something this delicate. If they're going by reality, the kids were never as far as we know forced into spying. They're hoping to get willing recruits with these kids. You can't get a second generation illegal through blackmail. It's too important a position for life. Part of their job involves identifying people who can't be turned enough.
Of course, they could write a story where Paige is coerced and Philip is coerced into letting her coerced etc. But it's not a set plan that only Paige doesn't know about. Philip and Elizabeth are operating under the understanding that of course Paige would have to agree. As spies themselves the'd surely see that as the only possible way.
They say she has a choice, but when P/E objected to her being recruited, Claudia told them they were under orders to make it happen, or at least take steps in that direction. With the Connors dead and the loss of one potential recruit, they have even more incentive to get her on board. E/P have told her details about sensitive operations and Gabriel knows it. Would the Center still be okay with Paige saying no and walking away, knowing what she knows? How can they ensure she'll keep her mouth shut, especially after she already confided in Pastor Tim? What if, theoretically, her parents stayed on the job till she turned 18, and Paige comes to the conclusion that she doesn't want to live in Russia and decides to stay in the US. Would they wish her well and let her live her life in peace? Maybe she can say no to joining the KGB, but that doesn't mean the KGB doesn't own her ass either way. I guess that's what I mean by her having no choice.
There's been so much great discussion and analysis in this thread (and others I've perused thus far) and I'm really enjoying reading everyone's take on things. It makes rewatching the episodes even more interesting, keeping an eye out for things others have mentioned, or looking at scenes or characters' actions from different perspectives. Glad I gave this subforum a peek.
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4 hours ago, Erin9 said:
I think the point of her meeting Gabriel has less to do with spying and pulling her into spycraft and more to do with giving her the opportunity to meet someone who knows her parents- who they really are- very well. It's not creepy to me. The last thing we hear is Philip saying he didn't know anything about his parents. Next thing you know, Paige is meeting Gabriel. Plus, Gabriel is leaving. This is also them saying good-bye. It's not like Paige will be regularly meeting with him from here on out. (I really hope this isn't the last we see of him though. In early S3, he seemed to be a bit more manipulative of them as needed, but we've really seen his true affection for them for a long time now, even as he prods them along.)
I think the thing with Henry right now is he's a pretty normal kid. He's frustrated that he thinks he's 2nd to Paige and that his parents didn't think he was smart, but as his teacher said, he's basically a good kid. They do need to pay more attention to him, try harder no doubt. Sadly, and I don't blame Henry for this, but he hasn't really demanded their attention, and he's obviously not a trouble maker, which would also get their attention. Paige forces it- has since S2. The Centre demands it. He doesn't. Henry has played video games- even when he had the opportunity to engage with the family, apparently started focusing on math, met a girl he likes, and snarked at his parents- only to immediately retreat. But he hasn't pushed to make himself known to his parents. Or asked them questions about their lives. And his parents are stretched super thin. I think they will. It seems like part of the point of Philip's memories surfacing is to lead him to change his relationships with his kids, but we'll see.
3 hours ago, Violet Impulse said:I thought they took Paige to see Gabriel because:
1) he has become a surrogate father for Philip and Elizabeth and because they are both emotionally vulnerable right now (for a variety of reasons), they are extra-upset that he's leaving / dying / abandoning them, so they want Paige to meet "Grandpa" before he's gone. There's a lot of daddy-issue story-lines coming to the fore this season.
2) he is very good at talking up the value of The Work and can answer Paige's questions better than her parents can. He might also realize for himself how entirely unsuited Paige would be to the world of espionage and can pass that along to the Center.
I can see it as an affection for Gabriel and the points both of you have made do make sense. Maybe part of the problem is that I'm looking at these parental decisions from an American perspective. It still seems like they're putting a big ole target on Paige's back if she doesn't do what TPTB deem is the proper course of action. On the other hand, both kids have always had a target on their backs no matter what, based on what they did to that other spy family (whose name escapes me at the moment). The Center certainly had no problem with murdering a child.
Paige has been kept ignorant of the fact that when it comes down to it, she doesn't actually have a choice in any of this short of going on the run and watching her back for the rest of her life. She doesn't understand the values her parents are fighting for are a lot more than making things equal for everyone. That the reality is inequality is very much alive and well in their system. That the individual doesn't matter, only the collective, so naturally anyone who gets in the way is fair game, even innocent people. Would Paige find that form of social justice moral, that the ends justify the means, including cold-blooded murder? I doubt it.
I have generally assumed that at some point they are going to run, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the indoctrination is so strong it will supersede her parents' doubts and one day they're going to announce, "Henry, pack your things. We're actually Russian spies, not Americans, and it's time to return to the Motherland. We're totally burned out." That would suck (for me as a viewer), but I guess I can't totally dismiss it.
2 hours ago, BetyBee said:In the final scene, Paige looked terrified in the car. After they walked into the safe house, Elizabeth looked so proud to be presenting her daughter, the newest recruit, to Papa-Gabriel. Honestly, Phillip must be totally on board with it too. I know Elizabeth is proud of what she does, but much of it is downright nasty and evil. Maybe she's hoping that Paige will never have to honey-trap or murder, but I for one, am just not sold on their great cause. Phillip has had doubts since Season 1, Episode 1. Back then, they were adamant about the kids not knowing what they do. This is a change and I'm sure the writers know where they're going with this story. I do love this show, but I'm not really enjoying the Paige as a spy aspect of it. Oh well, I still can't wait to see the next episode.
Paige was sooo scared. Holly Taylor did really well in that scene.
I'm not sold either. I have rooted for E/P pretty much from the beginning, despite everything, but there really is a lot of hypocrisy in what they say they believe in and what they actually do to achieve those goals.
One of the things I do love about this show is how it forces the viewer to think. The issues it raises are complex and messy with a huge helping of cognitive dissonance, but that's why I love it.
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You know, the posters who have mentioned the creepiness of E/P bringing Paige to meet Gabriel make a very good point. My initial reaction was surprise and a bit of confusion, but seeing as it was an actual development in her story I was thinking, okay, cool, something different is happening.
So what was the purpose of introducing her to Gabe? It does seems strange, given the Center's interest in Paige and the shaky ground both E & P are on about the rightness of what they are doing (even if E has been able to hide it so far). If they're not even sure about their own lives, why would they subject her to this (I'm especially looking at you, Philip)? To my mind the more entrenched she gets into their secret world, the more stuck she's going to be to take the path TPTB have set out for her. Paige already feels boxed in with what she knows and how this impacts her current/future relationships. Now they're making her isolation even more profound.
With the way they are handling Paige and Henry right now, E/P are making a lot of very questionable parenting decisions. I know having kids was a pretty selfish thing to do in the first place--their purpose being to provide cover--but I've never questioned whether they loved their kids. But good lord they are fucking up big time.
You'd think after learning about Henry's affinity for math it would be a sign that you know, maybe we need to work on connecting with our son more. It's funny with all they do to manipulate others, taking on personas to gain the trust of their marks, they are just totally clueless when it comes to Henry especially, and he lives with them and has been his entire life!
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4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:
Also Philip I am pretty sure your own son (both of them) know nothing of you. And you know nothing of them.
It's funny, isn't it? He's so focused on himself and his own suffering that he can't even see he is doing to his son(s) exactly what was done to him.
3 hours ago, benteen said:I read Roxann Dawson's IMDB page a while ago. She's established a really successful and prolific career in TV. Look it up sometime, there are some truly impressive shows on it.
It's great to see a Star Trek alumnus doing so well outside the franchise. I'm sure there are a lot perks and long-term income opportunities from conventions alone, but it must be difficult to get out from under such an iconic series. So many of them disappear or become bit players, which is a shame because many of the actors are excellent.
2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:It really was. I wonder what was going through his mind. There's a lot of hope and promise packed into that particular stretch of real estate, and I think even a committed communist like Gabriel can't fail to see it.
When your job is to blend seamlessly into the culture you're spying upon, I don't know how it doesn't rub off on you at least to some degree, at least if you're not Claudia. ;) I've always assumed that the handlers haven't been home in decades either, maybe even most of their lives, so I'd think they would be just as susceptible as their charges to the influences of daily living in the States.
The inscription on the memorial says: In this temple, as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the Union, the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever. Is he admiring, however begrudgingly, Lincoln, or perhaps there is a parallel to the sacrifice he and the other illegals are making to save their own Union?
1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:This is the first episode where Paige didn't have that constipated eyebrow thing going on.
LOL!!!
54 minutes ago, Bannon said:I really think it was a missed opportunity to not write Paige as being more of a (intelligent) defiant teenager. Like tuning into a documentary about Berlin, with footage of people being shot dead trying to get over the wall, and asking, "Mom, why does our system have to kill people for the crime of trying to leave?" Have her be assigned Solzhenitsyn in her AP literature class, and start peppering her parents with questions (think of how that might have triggered some things within P, about dear ol' dad!). I know there were plenty of children of traditional American anti-communists who adopted some variant of Marxism to torment their parents, and it would have been interesting to see that mirrored.
What an excellent idea, and a shame they didn't go this route. The weakest thread in this show for me has been Paige's arc. I don't know if it's the acting, the writing or both, but it feels like a lot of running in place. I liked the final scene where she and Gabriel see each other for the first time, so I'm glad something different is happening to move this part of the narrative forward.
48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:I don't think he was being cruel, he was being honest. He doesn't want Philip to start obsessing over what his father might or might not have done. He was just another person doing what he had to do to survive, like Oleg's mom.
I agree. If anything I think he was trying to ease Philip's mind. Like yes, there's a good chance your father was a monster, but someone had to do that job. We all make sacrifices for the greater good (even if kills the spirit and leaves you a withered husk).
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I haven't read the thread yet but I wanted to write down my initial impressions first. My apologies if I repeat what others have said.
I loved this episode, and it was directed by B'Elanna Torres! You go girl!
Very introspective and character driven with great performances all around. It explained a lot of why we haven't learned much about Philip's past; he has few memories of it, and what he does remember of it are negative or lies. No wonder he's so "shaky". Everybody's been lying to him his whole life. He tries to be what others want him to be because he doesn't know who he is. I wanted to give Philip a hug.
Elizabeth's cracking as well. I like Ben and how he's getting to her, but then I have a soft spot for crunchy granola guys. Her guilt over using this good man is reminding her of Young Hee and the devastation she caused a good woman and her family. I liked how she did tai chi and saw a shrink, both things she could use right about now.
I know she was putting on an act but it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell where the persona ends and the person begins, especially with E & P. It's kind of like EST with Philip, except he's actively seeking answers. Elizabeth is too, she just hasn't figured it out yet. I do hope she finds a way to pull out of the mission with Ben or at least minimize the damage.
Elizabeth gets a lot of flack for being unfeeling and cold. She can be and is both, but at her core she's a still waters kind of person. Philip's anguish is so palatable I sometimes overlook Elizabeth's emotional journey. It's been incremental and a bit more under the surface, but she is not the same person she was in season one, by a long shot. Meanwhile, Philip, the one who's so emotive and think we know better was actually the cypher all along.
I liked how they shot the conversation between E & P in the Camaro with the focus alternating between speakers. It was subtle but very effective. Gabriel at the Lincoln Memorial was beautifully done as well.
Gabriel looked so worn out and weak; I could feel the guilt oozing from his pores. Great acting by Frank Langella. I'm sorry to see him go. I wonder if they'll find a way to keep him in the story line or if this is goodbye. The first domino to fall? I wonder if he'll ultimately cave? My guess is if he tells anyone it'll be Elizabeth. Since she knows Philip better than anyone he'll leave it on her to decide. Kind of a dick move, putting that weight on her. But in the context of the situation, if he does I think it'll be because he's trying to right a wrong. I'm glad he told Philip to watch his back.
Maybe I've watched too much Forensic Files, but I was like, pull out all the damn tape before you burn it, Oleg! I guess he's feeling relatively safe after the no-shows; I'm glad he figured it out. I wonder if the investigation about the produce is going to lead to his father? And if that happens and he is exposed, is Oleg's life going to get a whole lot less comfortable and privileged?
Liked learning more about Henry. It's funny how we learn more about him from his scenes with Stan than almost any others (I did like his harrowing adventure hitchhiking with Paige as well). Not that he's had many scenes. I wonder if that's about to change. I feel like he's a wild card in all this.
Hated seeing poor Mischa coming off the plane, somber and defeated. So brave and making it through all that danger only to be sent back with nothing. Now that we know Philip's family is considered untrustworthy, we assume they'll be keeping a close eye on them both, not that they ever weren't, I'd guess. But I'm worried about his safety, and Philip's.
I'm sure there are flaws or nitpicks and things I've missed that I'll think of later, but in all I enjoyed this episode a lot, from beginning to end. I love this show. It really is one of the best I've ever watched. A few missteps aside, the overall quality from acting to writing and directing, plot to theme, has been consistently excellent. Keep it up people!
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26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:
This make me think that sometimes the two of them, after all these years, act as one unit. There's lots of examples where they balance each other, one taking the other position just because the other person needs that weight on the other side. In this case that seems important because on one hand, as you say, Elizabeth is making herself "the strong one" rather than join Philip in circling that drain.
But at the same time, I think Elizabeth gets something out of what Philip is doing. She's definitely relied on Philip to be "soft" on the kids in ways she doesn't feel she can do but ultimately thinks they need. A most obvious example would be Philip saying they shouldn't kill Pastor Tim because of what that would do to Paige when left by herself she would have killed them because it was the logical thing to do.
So even here, I think she does see that Philip's asking these questions is part of what makes him Philip and part of what makes him valuable to them as a team. She's grown out of the place where she just saw it as weakness and reported it as a danger. If she was working on her own she might be more bothered by these kinds of mistakes, or have become way more rigid and evil in order to deal with these things. But as it is she can rely on Philip to be doing that so she doesn't have to. And it's worth noting that when Elizabeth is feeling this way Philip takes the other position--supporting Lucia's death, offering silent support about Young-Hee, etc.
So like at this point I don't think when Philip says that "we'll be more careful" isn't enough that Elizabeth sees that as just him making things difficult. I think she takes it in as something that's actually important.
Yes. On the one hand, Philip's conscious certainly makes things more complicated on the work front. On the other, it makes him trustworthy in a way that no one else can be for her. He's really the only one she knows, without question, will have her back, and their children's. And as mucked up as things are with Paige and Henry, they would be infinitely worse without Philip's moderating influence (even if he did totally blow the "I'm proud of you" moment he should have had with Henry).
When the only person she can really trust is expressing doubts, I think she can't help but feel doubt as well. She's just better at hiding it because it comes more naturally to her. KR's acting is so masterful because I can see the struggle in her eyes and face. I feel like the writers want the viewers to wonder if Elizabeth will ultimately betray Philip, and there are times when I wonder about it myself. But more and more I'm becoming convinced that Elizabeth would sacrifice herself rather than betray him. Before they were fighting for a righteous cause. Philip reminds her that there is a human element that cannot be ignored, lest you become the monster you are fighting.
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On 4/5/2017 at 9:27 AM, stagmania said:
All your speculation about Phillips's memories being some sort of PTSD or functioning as puzzle pieces is really interesting; I think and hope it's leading to something bigger that will give us further insight to his character. His guilt over the bad kill, in conjunction with realizing he's neglected Henry and Paige is miserable, has him primed for a major meltdown. I expect that Mischa (and maybe Stan?) is going to be the final straw, however that ends up happening.
I don't know why, but I get the feeling Elizabeth will be the one who finds out about Mischa. I'm not sure whether she'll be as outraged as Philip--I agree he will lose it when he finds out--but coming on the heels of them being wrong about the wheat, I could see it being another chink in the armor. The True Believer part of herself could understand and perhaps even agree with Claudia's reasoning; at the same time, as she and Philip have become closer, I think he's opened her eyes of how high a price their way of life has and continues to cost them. By hiding/lying about Mischa, their handlers are demonstrating that they don't trust P/E. After everything they've sacrificed for the cause, I'd think even Elizabeth would see the move as a serious betrayal, especially after Claudia put them through the ringer before, testing their loyalty.
QuoteI do think Elizabeth felt bad about their mistake, but in a different way than Phillip. For him, the pain is more existential-he doesn't want to hurt people anymore, he no longer has strong faith in their righteousness, and it's chipping away at his soul. Elizabeth, on the other hand, still has her cause and truly believes that what they're doing is for the greater good, and can view occasional mistakes as unfortunate but unavoidable collateral damage. So she feels bad they killed an innocent man, but most of her concern was for Phillip and how she knew the knowledge would hit him. At this point, I think she understands that she's able to compartmentalize and cope with the nastier parts of their work much better than him, and it was a very generous thing for her to offer to take on his burden. Of course she wants to comfort him-I think the show has gone through great pains to show us her evolution in falling in love with him for real and trying to understand him better.
This is how I interpreted her reaction as well. She does feel badly about killing the guy, and it bothers her that the Center was wrong about the wheat, but she isn't going to flog herself over collateral damage, no matter how regrettable (Yung Hee excepted perhaps). She was worried about Philip and what it would do to him. She knows it will devastate him, and even though I don't think she always understands the degree of Philip's angst, it pains her to see him suffering. I saw her offer as wanting to do something to lighten his burden in a situation where they have very few options.
On 4/5/2017 at 10:54 AM, Chaos Theory said:I think this season is actually very good. I think some of the problems is that last season had some of the best episodes the show has ever done. The Martha gets exfiltrated episodes were some of the most thrilling episodes the show has ever done. Plus I don't think the series is the same since Martha and to a lesser extent Gaad has left
I started watching this show last year during this arc. I'd gotten home for work, turned on the TV and it happened to be on. I rarely pick up heavily serialized shows midseason, let alone mid-episode, but I was sucked in almost immediately and spent the next couple of weeks catching up on previous seasons. I even joined Amazon Prime so I could watch the whole thing. All this from two thirds of "The Rat". :)
I have faith, and am enjoying this season too, though I get what people are saying about it being slow. Things are simmering. I'm feeling as tense as the characters in their respective situations as I watch all the pieces move into place and wait for the inevitable. I was terrified for Mischa during his escape and am worried about what is going to happen to him now; I hadn't expected to be that invested in his story line but I'm rooting for him (and the actor looking like he could be the offspring of MR is a nice bonus). I love Oleg and am enjoying the Moscow story line much more than I thought I would and especially like his relationship with his mother (incredible acting on both of their parts).
I guess I'm not in a hurry for the shit to hit the fan because I know it won't end well for the vast majority (if not all) of our characters. Despite everything they've done, I can't help but root for these people. I want them to have a happy ending (such as it is) but I know they can't and won't get one. So yeah, I'm definitely invested and the pacing is working for me, though I do miss characters like Nina, Arkady, Martha and Gaad.
On 4/5/2017 at 1:03 PM, stagmania said:I see no scenario in which Elizabeth would agree to murder Phillip's son, or in which Gabriel, Claudia, or anyone else would order her to. There are hard limits and even the Centre understands that.
I agree. Elizabeth would kill herself before she'd kill Philip's son.
On 4/5/2017 at 1:33 PM, kikaha said:I found it sickly ironic, that right before P killed the tech guy a while back, E told him "you should have asked." Yet Elizabeth asks no such questions herself, and treats murders like that as collateral damage.
That's because Elizabeth sees the bigger picture...or at least that's what she tells herself. In the end, what is the life of one lab tech compared to the safety and security of the Motherland? She can't afford to ask herself uncomfortable questions, especially with Philip falling apart before her eyes because he is asking those questions. If they're going to survive, someone has to be the "strong one" and suck it up.
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6 hours ago, HighMaintenance said:
How did Shiva know to attack the bad guys and not an Alexandrian? If you review the episode you will see Ezekiel just off camera with a laser pointer.
As someone owned by a feline, the imagery this brought up made me LOL!! I have really got to stop reading this forum at work.
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On 4/3/2017 at 1:00 PM, smorbie said:
This is the Rodney Dangerfield of shows. It gets no respect, and yet.. people are still here every week complaining about it. It's the fashionable thing to do.
I'm particularly enjoying all the comments about how "obvious" it was that the heapsters were going to double cross Rick. if it were that obvious, the people would have been talking about it before. But, no one mentioned it.Speaking for myself, I did say in last week's thread that I would be shocked if the GPK didn't screw over CDB. :)
As to your other point, it's actually something I struggle with a bit. There's a lot I like about this show, and sometimes I wonder if focusing on its weaknesses has diminished my enjoyment of the things I do like. That's why I appreciate reading posts from those who really liked the episodes just as much as the more critical comments.
At its core, my biggest problem with the show right now is I hate this Negan story line and the gymnastics taking place to justify dragging it out far beyond its sell-by date. The showrunners, on the other hand, are completely enamored with this character. All signs point to Negan sticking around for *at least* another whole season. I wish I could find the post, but someone upthread listed all the things which had to take place in order for Negan *not* to be taken out by now, despite there being multiple opportunities. It's like they're neutering competent characters in order to stretch out a story line that doesn't translate to screen very well.
I *think* this season is supposed to have taken place over the course of two or three weeks. The problem is, the pacing has been so poor it *feels like* it's been much longer than that. That makes it difficult, for me anyway, to empathize with Rosita, for example, even though I know she, along with everybody else, is in shock. They've been switching around timelines without being clear about when certain things are taking place, so I find myself repeatedly wondering how one character was in *x* location and now all of a sudden (s)he's in *y* location. They've played with timelines before, but I never had so much trouble keeping track of the chronology of events.
I don't mind episodes where they focus on a few characters. The problem is most of the season has been comprised of these types of stories, or at least it feels that way to me. Whereas in previous seasons these "slower" (or single group/location) episodes added depth to characters and/or filled in narrative gaps, they're doing it so much now it just grinds the forward momentum to a halt.
I'm not getting the opportunity to connect with characters I care about or are interested in because we only see them once every four or five episodes. Some of the pacing problems could have been alleviated simply by editing the stories differently, e.g., by taking two or three episodes and cutting between stories and locations instead of wasting an entire episode on Tara, for example, when it could (and should) have been the B-story of another, thematically related parallel story line.
All that being said (and back to the episode at hand), I liked Sasha's swansong. I interpreted the flashbacks with Abraham as a combination of actual memories and her own subconscious coming to terms with her impending death. I believe she did have this conversation with Abraham, but her fear of his imminent demise seemed particularly acute, so much so I felt it had to be as much about her being afraid of dying, knowing it was coming, and soon, as it was wishing she could have prevented Abe's death.
22 hours ago, Nashville said:I expect Negan had a whole set of histrionics planned around this little bit of funereal window-dressing - something along the lines of:
"Well, let's open up this coffin here - and see, what did I tell you? Sasha, safe and sound and beautiful as ever. (Have a nice nap, girl?) Just like I promised, not a hair harmed on her pretty little head. Come on out of there, Sasha, and let them get a good look at you."
"...but wait a minute. Something's wrong now, and what could it be? Hmmm? Let me think on it a second.... I got it! What's wrong now is MY -COFFIN - IS - NOW - EMMMMMP-TYYYYY!!! Now, that's not right! I came here with a full coffin, and you know it's JUST NOT RIGHT for me to be leaving with an empty coffin! I mean, what use is an empty coffin to anybody? A coffin without a body in it - why, that's just hauling around dead weight, isn't it? ("Dead weight" - get it?) So I guess we should remedy this situation IMMEDIATELY!!!"
"Soooooo, Ricky... who are we going to put in my coffin? Tell you what - I'll let YOU pick...."
Reading comments like these doesn't help when you're trying to read incognito at work, particularly when you laugh and choke on coffee at the same time. Well played, sir. ;)
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Sasha failed in her initial mission but still managed to help turn the tide and pulled off one of the most peaceful deaths yet on this show; I liked seeing Abraham too.
With all the rumors about Chandler possibly leaving the show, I have to admit I was expecting Carl to die. Glad I was wrong. Yay Shiva! I will ignore your uncanny ability to only attack bad guys.
Shocked the GPK turned on them. NOT. I wonder if they were the Little Birdies who tipped Negan off? If so, what's Gregory up to?
I know Eugene's just trying to survive and wanted to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, but I didn't like him offering to help Negan. Did he really think Rick & Co. would be persuaded to stand down? He just looked like a traitor.
I liked the scene between Morgan and Carol. I wondered who was going to talk first; it was fitting when neither did. I also enjoyed the scenes with the Kingdom people; for me they are the bright spot in an otherwise underwhelming season.
During really tense scenes, particularly when I expect a "big death", I jump to my feet and pace a bit. I don't do it on purpose; it's just a nervous reaction. I have to admit I did it a couple of times during this episode. As a whole, though, this was probably my least favorite season finale. Despite all the gunfire and "action", not a lot actually happened. Actually, that's a decent way to describe the season as a whole.
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4 hours ago, raven said:
Maybe I'm morally bankrupt from watching Vikings and Black Sails, but I wasn't really bothered by Rick's group taking the Oceanside guns. Hey, they said they would bring them back! I thought that comment was kind of funny, actually.
I see Tara being on board with the whole war thing and saying, "I know where there a lot of guns, but the community is hidden and they shoot on sight. Let me go in to distract and then you guys sneak attack but don't kill anyone." A sit down isn't going to work and Rick's group is desperate and doesn't want to waste time. They need a crapload of guns so they're going to take them. The days are over when Rick would leave a couple of guns behind, like he did with the Vatos. If the question to Rick is who's going to die, someone from my group or yours, well, he's going to choose yours.
Eugene is doing the same thing in his own way - choosing his life first, unless he helps Sasha escape or something. I would be shocked if that happened, I think Sasha is doomed. I liked their scene together.
I think Dwight is legit turning against Negan but we already have too many characters in Rick's group and they're spread out so nooooooo.
This season has been pretty uneven.
RE: taking the guns, you, along with others, have made good points. For me it isn't so much that they took the guns as it was the way they did it. Someone upthread suggested Tara approaching Cindy (can't remember the funky spelling they're using for this character) first, and I agree doing it that way might have mitigated the need to waste explosives and bullets. If it didn't, then go to Plan B.
I guess it bugs me that they gave those stupid trash dwellers the benefit of the doubt when nothing indicates they are the least bit trustworthy (I'll be surprised if they don't screw our group over once they have Guns. Lots.), yet it didn't occur to them to try contacting the one person at Oceanside Tara knew was trustworthy. I understand Rick didn't want to waste time, but he did indicate he was willing to take the time to talk. I just think coming in and pointing a gun at the leader's head right at the onset isn't particularly conducive to persuading them to join the cause. Yes, they had to have their guns, but they need soldiers too. If Jerry or Shiva dies because now there aren't enough Red Shirts to fill the writers' body count quota I am going to be...grrrr. You better not do it Gimple, you bastard!
As to Sasha and Eugene's scenes, I liked them quite a bit myself. Both actors have done a fine job throughout their tenure on the show, even when the writing hasn't done their characters justice.
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9 hours ago, DEL901 said:
Or maybe he was referring to a much more recent conversation with Gregory who, after showing his uselessness in front of Maggie, ordered one of his minions to drive him somewhere.
I assumed Maggie and Gregory's scenes were happening at the same time as Rick's group's, but that's mostly because we didn't see Enid and Jesus at Hilltop during those scenes. I'm still leaning toward Negan reading between the lines of Simon and Gregory's last conversation, but it could very well be what you said as well.
As an aside, I have to say I was relieved (and a little amused) by Sasha's response to Negan's fishing expedition. It was a clever way of deflecting. Both she and Rosita, blinded by their own desire for revenge, wanted to "get the job done" right now and were clearly frustrated by the delays, even once Rick was on board with fighting back. Tapping into that frustration made her response more convincing, given that she does know Rick is up to something.
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1 hour ago, nachomama said:
I thought Negan meant Eugene was the "little birdy" snitching that Rick was up to something. Not that Eugene had any knowledge of the current mission but he at least knew Hilltop was hiding Maggie and a general layout of how shit works over in Alexandria.
Maybe he was referring to Gregory's conversation with Simon? While the Saviors don't have definitive proof Hilltop is in cahoots with Alexandria, the timing between the demand for Gregory's head in exchange for the Hilltopian hostage and CDB's attack on the satellite location is way too convenient to ignore.
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45 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:
If Rick's group loses (which won't happen because they are in the credits), then Oceanside has no weapons to defend themselves. No one in this ZA is innocent, but I'm sure Negan and his followers can come up with all sorts of reasons why they do what they do. It doesn't make it right. Saviors, Terminus, Governor, Rick's group, whoever. They can tell themselves they are nothing like the Saviors right up to the point where they are.
This was my problem with it. They couldn't leave them with a couple of empty guns in the name of goodwill for a potential ally? Yes, they need firearms, and lots of them, to fight the Saviors. Given how outnumbered they are, however, it's going to take A LOT more than guns to prevail. If two or three fewer makes the difference between victory and defeat, they might want to rethink their strategy.
QuoteRachel RSL:
I feel like I was watching an entirely different group of people this week. Rick talks the ear off the leader of every new community he comes across, but suddenly, this episode he just goes in with bombs and guns? No long ass story about a rock or anything? Since when is that their M.O.? What did I miss there?
I agree. I understand what the writers were getting at, but the way they went about it just really felt out of character. It's like the writers are changing characters as needed to get the plot from A to B instead of letting them be who they are and arriving at the same destination organically. Instead of being provocative, it comes across as lazy writing.
QuoteAnd on a superficial note: Why does Daryl look like he hasn't washed his hair in 15 years but Jesus always looks like he just got a blow out at the salon?
LOL! Maybe the blacksmith fashioned a flat iron for Jesus. ;)
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Well, I can't say that was the most gripping penultimate episode, mostly because I'm having a hard time with the way they took Oceanside's weapons. IMO 7B was a big improvement over the first half of the season, not that it would take a lot to accomplish. That said, there's only been a handful of episodes in this half season I really enjoyed, and "Bury Me Here" was the only one from beginning to end where I got the "now this is the Walking Dead I remember" feeling. I do like the Kingdom and its cast of characters, though, so there's that. Thing is, prior to this season I liked most episodes in each season; this is the first time, for me, they've had more clunkers than good (never mind great) ones. As a long time, loyal fan of this show, that really sucks. :(
Anyway, I suspect Sasha will try to figure out a way to poison Negan, but of course it won't work. The question is, will she die by her own hand or someone else's?
They could've handled Dwight's character development a lot better than they did. They made him too much of a villain, and by the time they started the redemption arc, a lot of viewers had already lost sympathy for him. As for myself, I don't mind him or Sherry toooo much, and from a strategic standpoint, having a defector, particularly one of Negan's right hand men, is extremely valuable. Besides, anything to get the Saviors off this show sooner rather than later is a plus in my book. ;)
I am disappointed Eugene does indeed appear to have joined the dark side. It is in line with his character, though, and given the situation he's in, I do understand going along to get along. I think he'll have a crisis of conscience once fighting breaks out and he's forced to use his talents against CDB, but I guess I'd hoped he'd been more conflicted about it prior to the shit hitting the fan.
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I knew it! I had a feeling it was Dwight, even after seeing the screen shot last week! Yay me! ;)
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Well, there's Rosita. Differing timelines confirmed.
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Well, Sasha's expression suggests she's bluffing. I was confused before that, because if she wanted to kill herself, she just had a big ass knife to do the job!
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The way they are handling this is kind of shitty. I understand having a backup plan, but couldn't they have tried diplomacy without the guns first (or at least with guns down)?
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2 minutes ago, eejm said:
The actress who plays Natanya reminds me of Kate Mulgrew.
I do believe she was a guest star on an episode of Deep Space Nine (the episode "Sanctuary"?), so there is a Star Trek connection!
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4 minutes ago, lmsweb said:
I'm a bit confused on this too.
Glad it's not just me!
2 minutes ago, JackONeill said:We have multiple stories playing out tonight. We'll get to Rick et al.
You have a point. And it just occurred to me that they could be playing around with the timeline and Rick's group's mission is happening some day(s) later.
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Hard to keep up with the thread, so my apologies if this was addressed before, but I see Daryl with Rick's group. So does that mean the person Rosita saw at the end of last week's episode was actually Dwight and the screen shot of Daryl was some sort of misdirection?
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4 minutes ago, SoSueMe said:
I really hate seeing torture portrayed. That is the main reason I gave up on American Horror Story, it became torture porn. I hope that tonight's episode has a little restraint. I was unfamiliar with JDM, so the finale was pretty impressive to me. It is weird that the villains (Negan, the Gov, even Gareth) seem to have a sort of magnetic quality. I feel creepy even thinking that but there it is.
I'm not crazy about seeing someone's head get bashed in either, and knowing what's coming is probably contributing to my reduced enthusiasm for the premiere. Personally, I don't think they're going to be showing any restraint. They have a lot to prove tonight, and I suspect their idea of "raising the bar" to make up for/justify the cliffhanger means all out gore fest. I hope I'm wrong, though. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
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S05.E06: Crossbreed
in The Americans [V]
Nicely said. I totally agree.