[A Place For Questions & Educational Links]

On 8/8/2015 at 4:32 PM, possibilities said:

I think if you are a person who identifies with the gender other people told you you were at birth, but you do not conform to the stereotypical extremes for that gender, you will have lots of questions about what those assignments mean and what they should mean, and that's valid. Speaking as a cisgender female, also a lesbian, and also someone who finds both extremes of the gender binary stereotype morbidly aversive, I understand the impulse to question the nature and validity of prevailing gender norms, and to be hostile to declarations that one's gender is defined by things like favorite color, style of dress, or whether you cook, sew, fix cars, or drive a truck.

 

.....

 

The more I hear transgender people talk about their lives, the more obvious it is to me that they are the experts on who they are and what they need, and that the rest of us should stay out of it and stop making such a big deal about it being our business. It's actually the same thing as has always been true for me as a lesbian, i.e. that other people have been nursing theories about what we are and why, and whether and how much and in what ways we should be accepted or tolerated or allowed to participate in the world. Even the debate over whether we choose or are born this way to me is irrelevant and insulting, because it implies that we need to explain or justify our existence and that there's something wrong that needs explaining. We are who we are. We're not hurting anyone by being that way.

There's nothing to worry about.

 

I also think that's why "being out" is such a great service, as well as often being a necessity for psychological and physical self-preservation. Living in secret is terrifying and stressful. It's inherently damaging. So when I hear people worrying about Jazz being public, I get it because fame has its problems. But being in the closet is also detrimental, and that can't be ignored either.

Because there ARE differences between males and females. We have different organs and are affected by different hormones. Our bodies do different things. Women can get pregnant, can give birth to children and then spend the first year of the child's life breastfeeding, men don't do this. That's a HUGE difference between the sexes right there. On average men are larger than women and can over-power women in a physical confrontation. Most violence and rape is committed by men. These are differences between the sexes that are real. Refusing to acknowledge these differences does not help anyone and ESPECIALLY does not help women.

I think as feminists we seek to minimize the differences between the sexes because we are afraid if we acknowledge them, then men will twist them to justify misogyny and oppression, as they have been doing for centuries. So in an attempt to combat misogyny and oppression we try to pretend that men and women are exactly the same. I think this is misguided and actually in the end hurts women. 

 

When we say anyone can be whichever gender they want regardless of anatomy and hormones, a male can call themselves a woman, and a female call themselves a man, regardless if they've even gone through any sort of medical transition, we are redefining what sex actually means. If we redefine the words girl/woman and boy/man, which have always been descriptive words for the sexes (female/male), to mean, well, in the end nothing really, then statistics on how females are discriminated against in the workplace or elsewhere will be rendered meaningless if males can be recorded as if they are women. The crime statistics likewise will be rendered meaningless if crimes committed by males are recorded as if they have been committed by women. This is especially true regarding sexual crimes where females commit a tiny percentage of such crimes. What it means is there will be a increase in sexual crimes recorded as if they have been committed by lesbian women, when really heterosexual men have committed them. Females will also no longer be assured a female health care provider etc, if a male is legally classified as a woman. And locker rooms and bathrooms will no longer be safe spaces for females to be away from males.

How are we supposed to fight for our rights and advocate for ourselves as women, if the category of women (meaning biological female) is erased from society? How are we supposed to fight for protection and rights over our bodies, for healthcare coverage for woman-specific health issues, for protection in the workplace if we get pregnant or need to care for young kids, if the word woman no longer means person with vagina and womb?

These are the problems that we run into if we decide that the distinctions between the sexes are meaningless, and try to enact a genderless society, or a society where man and woman is based on personal feelings instead of biology.

I am all for someone like Jazz getting to be who she truly is. The problem is when anyone can call themselves trans even if they haven't gone through a transition and have no plans to, and when gender no longer seems to have anything to do with biology. I was under the impression when I first learned about trangenderism that it was an uncomfortability with one's sex, a desire to change one's sex, and then actions to do so. But now it seems to have little to do with that, and plenty of people are trans without having gone through any transition, while still being affected by the hormones of the sex they were born with. 

[A Place For Questions & Educational Links]

On 7/30/2015 at 8:35 PM, rck said:

 

Regarding transphobia, I really had a hard time at first when I heard the idea that not being attracted to a trans person is transphobic, but I misunderstood the point people were trying to make there. As I understand it now, it is transphobic if someone is not attracted to someone else because they are transgender. It's not transphobic to not be attracted to a particular trans person, or to not want to have a sexual relationship with someone who does not have the kind of genitals you prefer, but it is transphobic if you disregard someone as a potential partner just because they are transgender.

That is not transphobic. Nobody has a right to tell anyone who they should want to sleep with.

[S03.E08: In the Line of Fire]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:02 PM, Caracoa1 said:

Why would Jazz have to go off hormone blockers for awhile before surgery?  If she shows any sign of male puberty before her surgery I believe that would be detrimental to Jazz's emotional well being.

I think because the doctor wants her to have an orgasm before she gets the surgery and she needs to have a bit of male hormones to do that first. 

On 8/10/2017 at 1:14 PM, woodscommaelle said:

When Noelle and Jazz were in the park feeding the birds....they were having a great time like two high school kids.  Or anyone laughing and having a great time.  But when the conversation turned to Tomi and Jazz going on the show and Noelle wanting to speak out against her or something?  Jazz told her that she didn't want Noelle to be vocal bc of the negative effect it would have on Jazz's family....Noelle looked absolutely dumbfounded.  Her patience is seriously waning.

Noelle, if you're reading this:  Get into activism or something.  Get your voice heard.  You are amazing! 

I don't think Jazz was saying she didn't want Noelle to be vocal. Noelle was encouraging Jazz to argue with Tomi if Tomi got aggressive, and Jazz was saying she didn't feel comfortable doing that, she wasn't saying anything about what Noelle should do. Also the bird scene was really staged.

On 8/10/2017 at 2:48 PM, gingerella said:

I suspect, based on Jazz's reaction and answer to the Dr. regarding her sexual preference/who she is more attracted to, that she may be more interested in being with women once she has her surgery, but she doesn't want to say it aloud yet. I say thbecause she comes off as so obsessed with being what she considers "a normal girl" and it seems like that includes being a female who is sexually attracted to males - at least that's the impression I get.  She seems almost repelled by actual boys her own age - regardless of whether they are transgender boys or not - Shane 1 and Shane 2 - so perhaps she knows she's attracted to women, but isnt ready to say so because it is another level of 'different-ness', compared to her mental image of being a straight girl, which it seems is what she's been obsessed with for years. I'm only going on how she presents herself and talks about herself...and I dont mean any disrespect to straight or gay women - it's just an observation I noted last night in how she talks about herself.

ETA: I think Jazz is so grossed out by her own genitals that I can easily see her not wanting to be with a male because she is so put off by her own male genitals, small as they might be.

I get the impression that Jazz is very attracted to guys, and seemed very attracted to Shane #2, but she's too unhappy with her own body and worried about how it'd be perceived to go on with dating right now. What you said in your edit

On 8/10/2017 at 11:25 PM, Figster said:

I have a M to F friend who also watches I am Jazz.  She told me something that really made me feel sad and a bit surprised at first.  She said she believes Jazz is likely currently imagining that once the gets a vagina (the "perfect" vagina), then she will be exactly the same as a cis female..  Society says this, her parents tell her this, as do the doctors.  In fact it's considered bigoted to say otherwise.  My trans friend said she had the same dream Jazz had and thought bottom surgery would make her into that bio female she always felt she was and wanted to be.  But her depression at feeling incomplete before bottom surgery only increased, when upon entering the dating world after having it completed, she still found that her dream was not realized.  That is, the men she truly wanted and was attracted to, cis hetero guys, mostly (99.8%) ran like the wind once she revealed she was transgendered.  I keep telling her there will be the right guy out there that will love her, all of her including her past.  But dating is a very difficult and largely demoralizing for her currently and I worry about her state of mind at times based on our conversations.  I hope Jazz understands that even the perfectly made vagina may not give her the perfect happy life she's envisioning.  Her road is a tough one, and i hope she becomes centered enough as a person (regardless of gender or bodily parts) to feel solid and centered in the world no matter what happens.

Well she found one person in Shane, so there's hope.

On 8/13/2017 at 2:03 PM, Impatient said:

Yes, Cousin debbie was a transgender specialist before Jazz was born.

That is VERY interesting.... your sure about that? Where'd you find that info?

[S03.E07: Dating in the Light]

On 8/6/2017 at 3:48 PM, gingerella said:

I smell bullshit on Shane, Jazz's "date". No kid his age says shit like "I dont care what she has between her legs". I'm sorry, that's just not realistic thinking for a kid his age, unless he's gay or experimenting with his own sexual identity. I also sense he has some sort of social issue, like maybe mild Aspberger's - something is just off about that kid, nice though he was on the date...

Maybe he is experimenting with his own sexuality or maybe he does have mild aspergers. Does it matter? He likes Jazz and seems nice. 

[S03.E07: Dating in the Light]

On 8/6/2017 at 5:47 PM, Impatient said:

 

On 8/6/2017 at 6:28 PM, Impatient said:

Oh Granny 58, let me hasten to correct one thing.  It is not necessarily true that self-resolving gender dysphoric children revert to homosexuality.  I don't think that has been confirmed or quantified.  But it IS true that 80% of children claiming to be "trapped in the wrong body" stop feeling that way without treatment.  They are self-resolving of that conflict.

Yes, the gay community is furious about this whole transgender acceptance movement, and especially the idea that these are children with  congenital abnormalities that must be medically and surgically corrected.  

That's 20 percent who still go on to experience gender dysphoria into adulthood. 

[S03.E07: Dating in the Light]

Jazz's grandpa is really annoying. I know the boy she went on a date with might have been some sort of hired person... but he seemed genuinely into her and I thought it was really sweet. 

[S03.E06: Face Your Demons]

3 minutes ago, MegD said:

I think the difference is that Jazz's reality is so disconnected from what a lot of transgender teens go through and she's so sanctimonious about her viewpoint. In contrast, we have Mya, Noelle, Shawn, and Lynn presenting their stories. We've even seen Noelle call Jazz on not understanding what a lot of trans teens go through since it's not everyone who's allowed to transition so young. Yet, even then Jazz doesn't seem to understand how lucky she is to have a family which is so supportive of her. I think Jazz's friends have been vulnerable. They may not be the stars of the show, but we've seen them in uncomfortable situations. Remember when Noelle had electrolysis and talked about how her voice is deeper and it worries her about dating because she thought guys wouldn't be interested in her since she sounded like a guy. She's talked about not knowing about makeup or clothing. That's all vulnerable moments for any teenage girl.

What we see of Jazz's life has a lot of scripting to it. Even with that, we are seeing a lot of Jazz's apparent lack of understanding that she's a pretty lucky girl in a lot of ways and her absolute belief that it's her way or the highway all the time. Although it may only be editing that shows how often this behavior occurs, it's there enough to be picked up on by the cameras. I have a friend who's a lot like this in real life. It's exhausting to be around her. She spent one afternoon, knowing that I was flat broke, living with my parents who had to give me gas money, and out of work, complaining that her dad only gave her $10,000 for her birthday. Apparently, it was very unfair that she didn't get the $15,000 she expected. I've never been given that kind of money by my parents. (Hell, I don't think I've ever been given $100 by my parents.) She didn't understand that not everyone's parents had that kind of cash to just hand over. Jazz seems very similar. Jazz, I think, is very rarely told no. Even when she was little. When Jazz wanted to play soccer and the people in charge wanted her on a team that matched her birth certificate gender, her parents went to court over it. When Jazz wanted hormones, Jazz got them. Jazz didn't like the opinion of the doctor on her surgery, they went to see a second and third opinion. She still doesn't like the opinion so I'm willing to bet that we see another doctor visit and another until she finds someone who agrees with what she wants. Unfortunately, the camera is spotlighting some really unfortunate aspects of the Jennings' family.

Didn't mean to imply the other friends haven't been vulnerable at all, they have, but we haven't gotten to know every little detail about them like we pretty much have with Jazz. Everyone has flaws and ugly moments, and we simply haven't seen Noelle's, Mya's, Shawn's or Lynn's yet. All I'm saying is that if Noelle got a show of her own, her faults would probably start to show and everyone would end up disliking her and endlessly complaining about her. Because human-beings don't actually look that pretty when you get so up close. In general Jazz seems like a pretty cool individual to me. 

[S03.E06: Face Your Demons]

19 hours ago, orangeiguana said:

I do find Noelle and Shawn's (did I get the name right?) portraits poignant and relatable. I hope we meet some more of these kinds of warm TG people in future eps, and perhaps meet their families, too. 

If people got to know Noelle or Shawn really well like they do Jazz, they'd end up disliking them too. Always the way it goes with these shows. People idealize the friend because we don't know his/her faults yet, and pick apart and criticize the person who's actually being vulnerable and showing us her life. 

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

10 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I'm not trans, nor do I have any family members/friends who are. This is just a subject I find interesting and want to learn more about, so I do a fair amount of research on it.

That being said, gender identity and gender expression are two different things.

From Wikipedia:

"Gender identity is one's internal sense of their own gender; while most people have a gender identity of a boy or a man, or a girl or a woman, gender identity for other people is more complex than two choices. Furthermore, gender expression is the external manifestation of one's gender identity, usually through "masculine," "feminine," or gender variant presentation or behavior." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_variance)

I'm quoting portions of the following article, "Separating Out Gender Identity from Gender Expression" (http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/separating-identity-expression/), . but if you have the time, read the entire article:

"Although gender identity and gender expression can be related, the point is that they don’t have to be.

[...]

Gender identity is internal, deeply-rooted, and a central part of many people’s senses of self.

For example, I identify as masculine-of-center. If I were to say “I am a woman,” it would feel as ridiculous as if I were saying “I am a dinosaur.”

Gender expression, on the other hand, is what everyone around us can see.

Gender expression is the way in which you express your gender.

Sometimes these expressions go along with socially sanctioned ideas of what is appropriate. For example, we live in a society that deems dresses appropriate for women, but not for men. But sometimes they don’t.

You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally feminine way. You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally masculine way. The point is that the two aren’t necessarily related.

The way that someone expresses their gender is not necessarily a clue as to how they identify their gender."

As for Jazz, going by just what has been discussed in the show, it doesn't appear her family discouraged her gender expression as a young child (they may have initially tried to steer her towards more "masculine" play, who knows? But when Jazz persisted, it seems they were able to fully accept it). However, even with that acceptance of Jazz' gender expression non-conformity, she still insisted she was female and not male. So in Jazz' case, despite being assigned male at birth, both her gender expression and gender identity were female from the time she had the capability to express both.

Oh I understand that, believe me. My question is where does gender identity come from? Does Jazz identify as a girl because at 2 or 3, she liked barbies and dresses more than trucks and dinosaurs?  It doesn't really matter how accepting Jazz's family is towards her gender expression. It takes a village to raise a child and society teaches children that girls like barbies and dresses and boys like trucks and dinosaurs, just as society teaches us that men want to have sex with women and women want to have sex with men. We all know now that all of this is ludicrous, there are plenty of boys who like traditionally girl things, and girls who like traditionally boy things. But the messages that we send kids is that that isn't possible; if you want wear a dress and play with barbies, you are girl. I'm just wondering if Jazz's desire to be female comes from a very early desire to be able to live as the person she is, someone who wants to wear a dress and play with dolls. And if her fear of male puberty comes from this. 

What I'm saying is if we didn't have gender roles. And men could wear dresses and make-up and it wasn't considered weird, and if we didn't separate children by their sex, would Jazz still grow up with a female gender identity, and desire to change her body at puberty, or would she see herself as just a really feminine guy, and be fine with facial hair and a deep voice? It's hard to know. 

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

On 7/25/2017 at 7:39 AM, Impatient said:

 

Secondly, in terms of dating preferences:  maybe it's just me, but i have always gotten the impression that the entire Jennings family has thought of Jazz's "problem" as being wholly medically correctable.  Testosterone blocking, synthetic estrogens, possible top surgery, bottom surgery and then?  Problem solved!  Jazz is a girl, then woman, just like any other.  It's the 'just like any other' aspect of Jazz's upbringing that i have problems with.  They never ever seem to have those tough conversations. The ones that go like the ones my dad would have brought up.  About mutilating your body to match what the outside world thinks and says (as in nose jobs).  Or what is it you want in life, Jazz?  And before the age of say 13 or so, not discussing anything at all in terms of girl brain in a boy body.  Not saying my dad was The paragon of paternal wisdom, but he was practical. Real world oriented.  

 

 

I was just watching a special from when Jazz was a child, where she said she felt like a girl and wanted to play with barbies and wear a dress. Back then that's all being a girl was about for her. I kind of wish someone trans posted on this forum to get their take. Is it really body dyphoria that Jazz is experiencing or is it just about gender roles? If we let boys wear dresses, play with barbies and dolls, like pink, have long hair etc.... and let girls do all the  boy things, if we didn't separate children by gender at all, just let them gravitate to whatever they liked.... would any of this be a problem in the first place? Is this really about Jazz not feeling one with her physical body, not feeling male, or is it about not feeling like she fits male gender roles? Is it about our society not accepting people for who they are? If gender roles didn't exist and men could be as feminine as they wanted, throughout their whole lives, and women as masculine, would Jazz and other transpeople feel the need to change their bodies? I wonder.  Then again, I don't know, maybe it is about the body and if we raised children in a gender-role-less society, someone like Jazz would still become hopelessly depressed and suicidal when she hit puberty and realized she was going to develop a beard and deep voice. 

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

On 7/23/2017 at 6:01 PM, Granny58 said:

I think that it what I'm trying to put together in my head.  I could sit here dressed as a man and I would only feel like me.  It wouldn't make any difference because (as far as I and my cousin can discern), that's the only way you can feel.  So to feel like the other gender, I wonder if that already (sorry this is indelicate, not meant to offend, I just can't find the right words) is off track and it isn't so much as feeling like a particular gender as much as something else about it strikes a chord.  I was fast as a kid, strong as an adult (really strong, wierdly strong) but didn't feel like a male....or female....just me.   So to "feel" like a particular gender, I don't get that.  Please, others chime in.  Do you feel like your gender or just yourself?  

Can you imagine what it'd be like if you were male? I try to think of myself if I were born male and I think it would be awful. I would hate being a guy. I've always had female interests as a kid, dolls, barbies etc. I don't think they were ingrained in me by society, I think they were natural. I relate to people in a typical feminine way. I like having soft skin, a body without body hair, and a voice that's not deep. I think if I were male it would always feel like it didn't fit and I would dislike my body and long to have a female one and just be a girl.

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

Dear Impatient,

I haven't taken offense to anything you've written, just having a conversation. So don't worry about that.

 

On 7/21/2017 at 11:28 PM, Impatient said:

 I can't help but remember what it felt like to be 16, 17, 18,......  and to get involved with someone, and be in just a kissing situation (which for me is SUCH an intimate act, kissing ----almost more than intercourse) and to have that person then say "I have to tell you, I am trans.  I felt you should know that."  At that point I would be mortified I think.  

 

Who says that Jazz is going to start kissing someone without letting them know she's trans? She's never indicated that she would do so... 

 

Quote

If we are going to hold to the fine points of the ethics of the situation,  in saying "How you look shouldn't matter, it is what is on the inside that matters", then why go through the outward changes at all?  I think it is because those secondary sexual characteristics signal something in our brains, something that is opposite to what you yourself are.  Women are most often attracted to masculine, men are most often attracted to feminine.   

 

Exactly. Jazz blocking testosterone and taking female hormones means that she has gone through the inward changes to become a woman. Again, if she were just about outward changes, she'd be a drag queen. But she has effectively become a woman on the inside. Her hormonal profile is that of an adult woman. If there were brain scans done on her, her brain would look the same as yours or mine because it went through growing up as a girl. Jazz looks like a woman because she is one now. I'm not saying she's exactly the same as a biological female in every way, but she's now gone through the majority of her life with the same hormones as a female. Hormones are what creates the differences between the sexes, right? So...

 

Quote

Why is it ok for her to rule out dating transmen, but not ok for cis women to rule out dating trans men? And vice versa?

 

Of course it's ok for cis women to rule out dating trans men! Of course it's ok for cis men to rule out dating trans women! No one should feel compelled to date anyone they don't want to or feel like they are obligated to be attracted to anyone that they aren't.  Where do you get that idea?

The world is a diverse place. There are all sorts of unique people in it. Attraction is different for everyone. And there are so many people who's attraction does not fall into the "normal" category. Especially with young people. I don't know how old you are, but I get the impression I am closer to Jazz's generation than you are. People of Jazz's age are so much more comfortable with gender identities and sexualities that fall outside the norm than people of older generations. Jazz is going to have a harder time dating than the average girl, BUUUUT that does not mean she can't find a guy who is genuinely attracted to her as a trans woman. You'd be surprised how many people's sexualities are not all cookie cutter. 

 

Quote

 Isn't this ultimately about making a good match, about Jazz creating a respectable family, with children and success and continues streams of money?  Isn't that what Jeanette is ENTIRELY about?
 

 

I don't think so. I think this is about living a life that is satisfying and happy. 

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

12 hours ago, stillhere1900 said:

I came here to ask about "Dating In The Dark"

Seems to me it was a setup for the show itself. The entire scene looked pretty fake to me, esp the guy who didn't have a problem with "Noelle's" voice or looks. they must have done a casting call for that scene because if you're a straight male looking to date and you sit down across from someone  int he dark and hear a male voice, you probably would be taken aback

So very set-up by production. I feel part of the reason that dating is being pushed on Jazz is to make the show more interesting, provide material. Without dating woes, all you really have to put in the show is bottom surgery stuff, there's nothing else going on in Jazz's life. They shouldn't be pushing Jazz into dating, but without it, what else is there to put in?

 

10 hours ago, Impatient said:

Jazz is currently 16.  There is a bumpy road ahead.

 

when i was 13, i begged my parents for a nose job and they thought i was nuts.  Still wish i had gotten one.  But at some point, Jazz will by in physical pain from the surgery and/or emotional pain, without the mature tools required to deal with either.  And then?  I am not so sure she'll be grateful to her parents for the choices they made.

I don't think Jazz is ever going to blame her parents for any of this stuff because it's all her own decision. She wants to be a girl, she wants bottom surgery, she wants to take hormones. Though she is young, she's very strong-willed, and she is choosing to do this stuff herself.  If she ends up regretting it, she'll regret it as her own mistakes. 

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

On 7/15/2017 at 0:03 AM, KBrownie said:

And this stuff obviously matters plenty to Jazz, otherwise she wouldn't spend so much time on it.  She really needs to wait a few years and then go through this process of considering surgery again.  She doesn't know what she wants and doesn't really understand the options as it pertains to intercourse and the potential irreversible surgery could end up not being what she truly wants once she matures and knows a bit more about the world than the bubble she lives in.

Jazz wants what she thinks all women want or behave.  Which to her is long hair, boobs, and a "pretty vagina," but most women know and understand that there is much more to being a woman than that.  She needs to discover what being a woman means to her because it's not the same formula for every woman like she seems to think it is.  She also needs a lot of therapy because she can't spend the rest of her life blaming her mother for why she feels so unhappy.  She has them pretty snowed I think.  She knows just the language to use to get them to back off when she acts out and it comes off as manipulative. She knows how to use her parents' legitimate concern for her well-being as a way to excuse her objectionable behavior. Getting bottom surgery is not going to magically fix all her problems like she seems to think.  She acts as if poof! she gets the surgery and she'll have lots of friends and lots of dates and she'll magically be strong woman who loves herself.  She can get the surgery, but all that other stuff will still be there, which is why the therapy is important, but no on one can tell her anything.  Her parents (and therapists) have the power to hold off for a couple of years at least, and they need to hold fast.  It becomes clearer and clearer each week, despite it being reality TV (you can't fake her attitude. She isn't an actress), she isn't mature enough for  the surgery.

 

 

 

On 7/14/2017 at 1:01 PM, Madding crowd said:

Jazz should not be getting therapy from a family member. No reputable therapist would treat a relative, it is not possible to be entirely objective when you know everyone in the family. Plus I have no doubt Jeanette would be grilling 'cousin Debbie' about every word Jazz says. Jazz does need therapy, but not with a family member. Her family brunch scene was bizarre to me; her grandparents bring over tons of food and then the whole family stares at Jazz while she eats? Why would that be a treat for her? I also agree the drag show was not appropriate for her age. Drag shows are great fun but not for teenagers who get embarrassed easily. It is more of Jeanette trying to push Jazz into a role she is not ready for. 

i don't think there is a problem with her weight, or the way she sits; not everyone is tiny and dainty. She does have a spoiled attitude, but part of that comes from living in a fishbowl. If Jeanette would give her a little room to just breathe, her issues might not be so severe. As far as the endless surgery discussions in that family, I think she should wait until she is eighteen. Surgeries come with a lot of complication possibilities and I don't think she is mature enough to make that decision now.

 

 

Watching the whole therapy thing with Jazz gave me flashbacks to when I was teen. My mom also forced me into therapy. I did it because I was forced, but it didn't help me. For it to have benefit the person needs to be choosing to go there themselves. 

I understand that Jeanette feels overwhelmed and worried, but I'm not sure what exactly she thinks therapy is going to do for Jazz.

I see a huge issues in their family with helicopter parenting that is getting in the way of Jazz maturing emotionally and gaining independence as person.  Jeanette is doing more harm than good with her over-monitering of Jazz's social, emotional and love life.  When Jazz said she wasn't feeling depressed and that she could handle her emotions herself, Jeanette responded that Jazz couldn't. IMO that is the opposite of what Jazz needs to hear.  As a parent Jeanette should be trying to encourage Jazz to feel competent, and by telling Jazz that she is incapable of handling her emotions, she is telling Jazz that she is incompetent, and inadvertently stifling her burgeoning sense of self-reliance and development.  They also should not be forcing Jazz to talk to them before and after every single social interaction Jazz has. They need to back off a bit. Not letting Jazz handle anything on her own will end up causing the very thing they are trying to prevent.  I know Jeanette means well, but type of helicopter parenting is damaging to a person's development, I speak from experience. 

 

 

 

On 7/19/2017 at 7:42 PM, Impatient said:

So I understand how hard this minefield is for Jazz to negotiate.  But she has so much positive reinforcement from the public at large that I would expect her to develop some sensitivity to the feelings of other people.  I ex[ect her to benefit from her positive exposure by developing some special strength.  Maybe that was wrong....  I am having so much trouble understanding how she can be so confident and secure speaking to crowds, riding on parade floats, etc., without having empathy for just the person she is talking to.  Just that one person.

What did it feel like to go home that night, after the skating rink, for Shane?  What did it feel like to be rejected by Jazz?

 

I do think Jazz acted rudely in that situation with Shane, but she is 16... most teenagers tend to be immature and messy in dating and social situations, but most teens are lucky they don't have cameras on them for their very vulnerable and sensitive first dates. You really can't expect Jazz to act perfect. Rejection and messy situations like that are part of growing up, for both Jazz and Shane. 

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

On 7/19/2017 at 1:21 AM, gingerella said:

And the hormone suppressants she's been on seem to have thwarted her entire puberty, not just physically but mentally too, which is really sad because I suspect this is where the rift between her and her old friends started...she has zero interest in boys or girls sexually speaking, it's no wonder her friends from her old school aren't hanging out with her, they are experiencing puberty and hormone surges and Jazz has NO clue what that's about. She talks about transgender and transitioning, but there is a huge disconnect between gender dysphoria issues she has and her actual sexuality. 

It's also disturbing that her mother doesn't seem to acknowledge this at all, let alone the doctors shown on this show.

It's been enough, she needs to do this transition privately, this show isn't helping anyone other than the family's wallet.

 

On 7/19/2017 at 3:53 PM, possibilities said:

Is there any research that shows that people who take hormone blockers as children fail to experience sexual desire in adolescence? I have not seen the data on this one way or the other, but anecdotally the other kids at the skating rink double date didn't seem to have the same dating phobia that Jazz does, and I'd hate to generalize from Jazz to everyone. There are also asexual people who are not trans, for instance. I don't know if Jazz is asexual or just has a lot of social anxiety or is just a late bloomer or what, but one kid who took blockers and is not dating at 16, I would say is not totally conclusive with regard to all kids who took blockers, or even Jazz herself for the rest of her life. It could also be that her dysphoria makes her anxious about sexuality, for instance. Or the cameras being around could be giving her a bad case of self-consciousness and making it hard for her to relax.

I honestly think that Jazz's lack of sexual attraction and desire has more to do with her body dysphoria than anything. She shows quite a bit of attraction to boys, but I'm sure she doesn't feel comfortable starting to explore it yet because of what's between her legs. In terms of developing actual libido.... that I can't say. 

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

6 hours ago, SongbirdHollow said:

I worry about Noelle. Sure, she handles everything with aplomb but she also has a very flat affect. I'm not sure it's good to internalize things that much. Careless words she shrugs off, but I think there are deeper hurts that she should talk about. I hope she has the support she needs. 

I agree. I see a lot of people here praising Noelle, saying that she is handling things much better than Jazz, and that Jazz could take some lessons from her. I see it differently.

I may be wrong, but my impression of Noelle is that what people are taking as her mature attitude is really a symptom of a deep depression and a lack of emotion and hope. 

I think Jazz has crazy mood swings and is rude at times because she's fighting for herself, she has hopes and dreams, she has passion and desire inside her. Noelle seems a bit dead inside to me, that is why she seems so measured and reasonable. 

[S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:05 AM, Impatient said:

I don't know, @possibilities.  I think part of it represents resentment at some level of dishonesty.  I think most people get that transgender people feel their outer presentations to the world do not reflect their true selves and try to rectify that in as genuine a way as they can, but that solution in and of itself feels like a fraud is being perpetrated, feels that way to those who do NOT understand the feelings of frustration at being something other than one appears to be.  If this concept that one's flawlessly feminine (or masculine) appearance does not truly represent one's biological gender or one's reproductive ability in the most general terms, then what does that say about those of us who are biologically as we appear to be?  I think that the transgender community goes to such lengths to cultivate an outward appearance (that in their minds reflects their truths), that it smacks of desperation to the population they are copying, and in some cases, even satirizing (e.g., drag queens).  (And don't get me wrong, I think that satire is awesome!!!.  We don't see the opposite very often because men don't do so much fake stuff to fit a beauty standard).

It's the emphasis on appearance, i think, that so disturbs people.  Drag queens and Hollywood aside, most of the world lives with the body they were born with.  But if one appears to be "A" but is in some fundamental way (biologically, genetically, reproductively) "B", then the fear and self-critiquing that is inspired by the elite "A"s and "B"s becomes exagerated.  Tremendously.  Because now it's not just a matter of "hollywood can make pretty girls flawless in their beauty, so I have to be that beautiful too!".  

 

Worse, aside from the trans community at large, we have Jazz, affluent, privileged Jazz whose family can afford flawless creation of "B", and there is of course resentment.  On a class level (who among us could afford all of that), on a child protection level (how dare they decide this for a 3 year old?), on a financial level (we'll go see all the best doctors and damn the cost!) and in a weird way on a celebrity level (are we supposed to admire Jazz as a standard of feminine or even trans-feminine beauty?).  

 

So this:  "I think that there is a deeper social order taboo being broken here, and that the policing of other people's gender and the social constructs surrounding that, are pretty crazy, and totally unnecessary and quite ridiculous. There are so many more important things to worry about in how people behave or identify as individuals, and so many things more important to a functioning society, that the morbid, frantic, Big Deal concern generated by the general public about this particular detail of other people's bodies, personalities, and personal lives (including people one doesn't even know!) still strikes me as utterly bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane."

This kind of dismisses people who are putting effort into building genuine relationships and families and lives, and start that at puberty by trying to attract attention from potential partners.  Of COURSE Jazz wants those things too, but she enters into any such relationship with a full and complete understanding of the issues involved.  I think people are more than a little squeamish at the idea that they might be seduced into a relationship that they have no real understanding of and that could risk real emotional trauma.

 

Finally, there is something disingenuous about Jazz wanting a cis boyfriend.  As though she is saying, "i pass so perfectly, i demand the same in a partner."  Irregardless of what this says about her views of "A" or "B" in males, it is elitist.  It is dismissive and even cruel.  Shane's date with Jazz was painful to watch, and while she may only have been acting in an honest teen-aged way, it highlights the problems associated with something i can't help but think of as an experiment.   I understand your views @possibilities, but i understand the other side of the debate too.

I have so many responses to this post. Where do I begin? Firstly, I think if Jazz were to enter into a romantic and/or sexual relationship or a one night hookup without telling the person she's trans, that would be dishonest and a fraud. It would be wrong for the person she's engaging with and also dangerous for her, that's how trans people end up dead. Except that's not how Jazz operates, she's open about being trans and tells people she is before she leads them on. So what's the problem then? If the thought of engaging in sexual relations with a transperson makes someone upset on a basic primal level, then don't have sexual relations with a transperson. It's that simple. Everyone has free choice to live how they want to... right? So then what's the problem? How is Jazz being dishonest in everyday, nonsexual interactions? Why are people offended by her merely existing, how is it affecting them? It's not. 

Secondly, it seems to me that you are confusing transpeople and drag queens. They aren't the same thing. For a transperson it isn't about trying to copy the opposite gender, it's about actually feeling like the opposite gender in a deep emotional way, and it's about feeling that their actual anatomy, penis, vagina, whatever it is, isn't them, is wrong. For drag queens on the other  hand it IS about copying the outward appearance of the opposite gender, it is all on a superficial level because drag queen aren't women, they're men. You don't see Jazz or Noelle being outrageous stereotypes of women, because they aren't trying to copy women, they are just being themselves. 

 

Personally, I'm not trans, I'm a ciswoman, but I don't find it difficult to imagine what it's like to be a transwoman, because I just imagine what my life would be like if I were born male. I feel like a female, like a woman. If I were born as myself, but in a male body, I'm pretty sure I'd have gender dyphoria and be trans just like Jazz is. I'm just lucky I was born as the gender that I feel inside. She is less lucky. 

 

Lastly, I don't see what is disingenuous about Jazz wanting to have a cis boyfriend. A person has no control over who they are attracted to. If Jazz is attracted to cismen, if that's what's in her heart, there's nothing wrong with her pursing that desire. It's going to be harder for her. Much much harder. But it's not impossible, it's a big world out there, with lots of people, she can probably find a special cis guy who is attracted to her. 

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

 I did have a bit of an issue with Jazz sharing the pride parade float with a survivor from Pulse but she was obviously asked to do so. 

why would you have an issue with that?

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

9 minutes ago, Twopper said:

 

And back to Jazz---- the hormones seem to have given her breasts and hips, but there is still something about her movements that seems a bit male to me, and I am not sure if I am really seeing that or if it is because I know she is MTF.   Maybe an episode where they go to an old fashioned charm school where they learn manners, how to sit and walk like a lady? 

 

I really think this is because you know she's MTF. Most women don't move in a stereotypical lady-like manner, but you don't question it because they are female. I'm pretty sure if you interacted with or observed Jazz without knowing she was MTF you'd never think for  a second she was trans, and you'd think she came across in mannerisms, vocal patterns and general behavior as female, albeit with a more self-assured, confident, extroverted way about her than your average teenage girl. I know she talks about being introverted on the show, and in many ways she is, but there's certain ways in which she commands a room and is extroverted more than your average person. 

13 minutes ago, Twopper said:

 

I found myself focused more on Noelle than Jazz in this episode.  I don't think Noelle is stupid, and I am sure she knows if life is difficult for her in high school that it will be somewhat similar in college. The advantage in college ( especially a very large university) is that there will likely be more organizations where she will fit in.   I don't know how scripted the meeting with the boys was, but the guy was right that she will have a more difficult time fitting in than most girls.  He knows it, and Noelle knew it as well.  Was Noelle the person having electrolysis ( I missed that episode)?  I think she could also use some voice training  and a trip to a make-up artist who can help her with make-up suggestions that would draw attention away from her more masculine features. 

Yeah, when Noelle was asking how she'd be accepted at a sorority or a frat party and then said she wanted to be accepted by a sorority because that would make her feel she was fully a girl... that made me sad. That is just not realistic for Noelle. The type of people in a Florida college frat environment are the not types of people Noelle should be trying to become a part of. She will never be accepted by them, it's futile. Noelle needs to go to a different kind of liberal arts college and become friends with a friend group that is less stereotypical and more diverse and open-minded than the people Jazz's brothers are friends with. 

Just now, mangosplums said:

I really think this is because you know she's MTF. Most women don't move in a stereotypical lady-like manner, but you don't question it because they are female. I'm pretty sure if you interacted with or observed Jazz without knowing she was MTF you'd never think for  a second she was trans, and you'd think she came across in mannerisms, vocal patterns and general behavior as female, albeit with a more self-assured, confident, extroverted way about her than your average teenage girl. I know she talks about being introverted on the show, and in many ways she is, but there's certain ways in which she commands a room and is extroverted more than your average girl. 

Yeah, when Noelle was asking how she'd be accepted at a sorority or a frat party and then said she wanted to be accepted by a sorority because that would make her feel she was fully a girl... that made me sad. That is just not realistic for Noelle. The type of people in a Florida college frat environment are the not types of people Noelle should be trying to become a part of. She will never be accepted by them, it's futile. Noelle needs to go to a different kind of liberal arts college and become friends with a friend group that is less stereotypical and more diverse and open-minded than the people Jazz's brothers are friends with. 

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

12 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

I feel for Ari, Sander and Griffen...... everything all the time is about Jazz....has Jazz ever had to be there to support her siblings thru good and bad in their lives?  I support Jazz and wish her well in her journey but I get the feeling her life will be one event after another for the next 50 yes that her siblings will be expected to support.  Has Jazz ever sacrificed anything for them?  I hope so.

They seem to be doing fine. I don't see them ~sacrificing~ much for Jazz. They are off living their exciting college lives and learning to become independent people. Not sure kids of that age really want much attention from their parents anyway. 

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

1 minute ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

I've noticed two different annoying voices: the cartoon baby voice she uses with kittens, and the faaahbulous older woman voice (reminds me of Miss Patty from Gilmore girls) that comes out more during talking heads. Jazz has a lot of personality but at 16 she's still got some learning to do as far as when to rein it in. 

I don't see anything wrong with either of those voices. Seriously, she's just being silly which is normal for a 16 year old, actually normal for a human being of any age. 

[S03.E05: Dating in the Dark]

I feel bad for Noelle. As someone else said, she handles things really maturely, but she can't be feeling great inside. I wonder if there are surgeries that exist that can feminize your voice, that and jaw surgery would make her pass pretty well. 

[S12.E22: Live Top 11 Eliminations]

On 5/2/2017 at 11:50 PM, PetuniaP said:

Am I nuts? Is Hunter Plake not terrible? Who is voting for him? Is that what teen girls are into these days? If so, save us all. I like Mark and I'm glad he was saved but I liked Stephanie too. I think everyone is pretty good this season but I'm ready for TSoul, Hunter, and Lilli to go home. 

I feel like Hunter is only there because he reminds people of Thom Yorke crossed with Chris Martin. 

[S12.E21: Live Top 11 Performances]

They aren't on youtube yet.... which is unusual, they always are right after the show airs. This is the first time I want to vote and I'd like to see the performances first. 

[S12.E19: Live Top 12 Performances]

I re-listened, and I think I was just in a bad mood when I watched before. Vanessa, Stephanie, Chris and Brennley all gave great performances. I'm rooting for Chris and Vanessa to be in the final. I think Chris will make it, but the voice voting public doesn't seem to like complex, interesting black women, so I'll be surprised in Vanessa makes it... but I hope she does.