Ringthane
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Posts posted by Ringthane
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First meeting between River and which Doctor? In Silence in the Library she said that Tennant was the youngest she'd ever seen him, and Tennant's Doctor didn't know her - it was established then that that was his first meeting with her. And with Smith's Doctor we also saw her first meeting with him. If she does meet Capaldi's Doctor now, then it has to come somewhere between those two encounters in her timeline. The only first it can be is her first meeting with this particular Doctor - we've already done all the other firsts.
I meant the first meeting between River and the Doctor, period. When he would know everything about her and she would know nothing about him. Wasn't the original idea for her to meet the Doctor in the reverse order of when he meets her? At some point there has to be that first time she encounters him, and it would make sense to have an older actor playing him when that happens. I mean, it's possible that she could know several incarnations of him, but at some point she just becomes another Clara - having seen and been part of the lives of/influential in the lives of a whole slew of them.
Plus, Alex Kingston's not getting any younger. Not that she doesn't look good, but at some point it would be weird to see a story like that if she looks older in that story than she did in the story River dies in.
It would be interesting if being so close to the Doctor and time travel for so long maybe made her timeline more fluid and less linear than a regular person's, but I don't trust Moffatt to be able to write something like that without resorting to the old "wibbly wobbly, timey wimey" chestnut again.
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Now, the obvious questions to ask ...
- When in River's timeline will she be meeting the Twelfth Doctor?
- Is Clara a part of the episode? The press release doesn't mention her at all and it does seem like Jenna Coleman could be stepping down from the TARDIS in the finale as well.
- Also, is River the only returning character in this Christmas episode? What if there are more to be announced over the coming weeks?
When River met Tennant's Doctor, she did say how young he looked. Maybe we'll finally get to see the first meeting between River and the Doctor. Although, if it is River from somewhere during the time we've already seen, imagine how agitated she'll get when she tries to get all touchy-feely with Capaldi and finds out how much he hates hugging...
I also wonder if River will know that Capaldi is the first of a new cycle of Doctors, or if she knew Matt Smith's Doctor was the 13th incarnation. Obviously she knows he has multiple regenerations, but will she be able to tell what happened? Wasn't it CALRiver who showed up at Trenzalore? Lots of questions.
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Man, Moffett's got more crutches than the physical rehab department at my local hospital. I suppose Vastra and the gang will pop in as well. Maybe the stars will go out again or something.
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That all sounds very intriguing.
I wonder if the one-hander for the Doctor (which means he's the only person in the episode) in Episode 11 will provide proper context for his Day of the Doctor cameo. Calpaldi said that would be addressed. Although it could be a part of the awesomely named Zygon invasion story.
I think Rigsy is going to appear in the found footage episode. Either that or Episode 10.
I always thought it would be funny if, in the middle of some random story, Twelve would just suddenly run into the TARDIS, grab that lever, furrow his brow, and pull it dramatically to do whatever he was doing in that episode, and then just casually go right back to whatever he was doing.
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Even the Doctor could have talked to the Time Lords once he knew what the crack and the message were, as I'm sure not even the Time Lords wanted the Time War to start up again. But, it's the story we got, so it's the story we have to go with.
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Every Dalek story since "Dalek" has featured lots of Daleks. What about "Asylum of the Daleks"? Not only were both versions of the new series Daleks in there, but also a bunch of the different models from the classic series. So much for being wiped out in the Time War (which, when you think about it, means that no matter what the Time War Doctor did, all he really accomplished was the loss of Gallifrey and his people. I wish someone would examine that in more detail on the show).
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I would have shown "Midnight" and "Father's Day" before a few of those... "Turn Left" too.
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But even if he did evacuate the planet, once the Time Lords came back, the Daleks would have started the Time War again. Once Handles deciphered the message, everyone knew it was them. That's what he was really trying to stop, even if Moffatt couldn't articulate it beyond a couple of throwaway lines. And imagine what that must have done to him - right there in front of him was everything he wanted for centuries: a restored TIme Lord society, not to be alone in the universe, maybe a new regeneration cycle and a way out of the final death that was in his future on one side, and the Daleks waiting to destroy everything on the other.
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The Master was offered a new regeneration cycle in "The Five Doctors" in return for his help rescuing the Doctor. I don't recall if the Time Lords followed through with it or not. (His "help" was dubious at best.)
I think Twelve has some of the same personality traits as One. So maybe it's the whole cycle repeating.
I don't think they did (at least at that point) - if the Master could regenerate, why would he stick around in Tremas's old body? Unless he regenerated and kept the same body/face, just like Tennant's Doctor did. The last I remember, the Doctors told the Time Lords that came in the Tomb to do what they wanted with him.
But that was during the whole JNT/Saward era, so who knows what was really supposed to happen.
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See, the last two posts illustrate what I was trying to say. Twelve is probably still amazed he's around at all. As far as he's concerned, Eleven was it. He'd come to terms with it, he'd adapted to it. I mean, the same guy who couldn't sit still for a few months with Amy and Rory during that heart attack box episode decided to live out the remainder of his life (which turned out to be centuries) on one little planet, just so the Daleks couldn't start up the Time War again.
And then all of a sudden, bam! Now he's got a whole new set of lives (and who knows if it's another 13-life set, or if, as someone else said, if the Time Lords gave him the ability to be able to regenerate forever, without limit. Here's an intriguing idea - we all know what the Master did when he ran out of regenerations. We also know that somewhere, the Valeyard was formed between the Doctor's last two lives (or what they thought would be the last two), and he wanted the Doctor's regenerations as well. What if the Doctor - just for a brief moment - considered what he would do at that point, and if he would be able to find a way to go on as well, and what that would entail? It's an interesting thought... Maybe Twelve is so down on himself because he knows something like that happened, and he's not sure what that means. (We do know that the person the Doctor hates the most in the entire universe is himself, as the Dream Lord showed us.)
Also, we've never seen a Time Lord on the show that got a new cycle - I don't remember it being stated that the Master ever did, or if the ones we saw in the new series were just before the Delgado and Ainley ones. So maybe in the Doctor's eyes, he's thinking that the real him died with Eleven, and he's not sure if he's the same guy or if he's something different. We have no idea what the mental toll of spending an entire life preparing to die finally, fully, and then getting a whole new batch of regenerations might be.
So I'm OK with Capaldi's Doctor as played. Perhaps this year Moffatt will finally be able to get over the Clara-love and do Twelve right.
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Sure, but I tend not to want to spend time with such persons, so I'm not sure why I should want to spend time with this Doctor. Jerks in fiction are usually only interesting if they have reasons for being jerks. This Doctor doesn't. Being a moody jerk for no reason is a trait of a teenager, not a 2000 year old demi-god who has seen virtually all of time and space.
I can't speak for classic Doctors, but 9, 10, and 11 all had reasons for their behavior. They were different personalities, but there was still a sense of continuity between regenerations that could explain those changes. 9 just got out of the Time War and played the trauma perfectly while still having a lighter side. 10 was a deliberate echo of Rose. 11 was determined to cheat death at all times. Other than the Scottish accent, I don't see any traits of 12 that would logically carry over from his previous experiences. "He just is that way" is bad characterization. He's an asshole because Moffat thought it would be cool if the Doctor were an asshole, and didn't bother thinking up any actual conflict that would make the Doctor an asshole. He doesn't know how to write meaningful conflict. He wants to have his cake and eat it too.
When Clara said the Doctor was her best friend in the finale, I didn't believe her. When the Doctor said his greatest strength is his companions in the finale, I didn't believe him. Maybe because they spent the entire season lying to each other and everyone else, and half the time they were putting each other down or insulting each other.
I guess I don't understand how, in a show where twelve different actors have played the lead part, the current incarnation's personality being jerky is bad characterization. Was Five being weaker and quieter bad characterization? No, that's how he was played. Was Three's affinity for class and affluence bad characterization? Was Eleven's "old man in a young man's body" bad characterization? This version of the Doctor is what he is. Just like Donald Trump is what he is. Trump could act like a saint from this moment on, but at some point his true self will show through.
And as for how Clara and Twelve treat each other - I've been friends with people that we could mock each other and insult each other all day long, but at the core we knew we'd be there for each other the moment we needed each other. That's just the type of friendship we had, just like that's the type of friendship the Doctor and Clara seem to have. Now, if you're looking at writing, yeah - being rude to each other like that in lieu of actual conflict is lazy writing. It's very easy to just write characters being mean to each other. And that's what Moffatt seems to want from his characters. But there are people who act like that with their friends, but it's just the way they are. Below that is a real connection (or should be, anyway).
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In the Clara thread, Ringthane wrote:
Really? Are you sure about that? I can't for the life of me ever recall the show mentioning that the Doctor was an alien.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but this is kind of an impossible thing for a viewer to forget. It's also not a very good explanation for Twelve's behavior. Nine was an alien. Ten was an alien. Eleven was an alien. All of them definitely had their moments of dickishness, but none of them ever treated their companions (and everyone else) the way Twelve does. None of them have ever left their companion to make a completely pointless moral decision that could have gotten them killed while withholding vital information necessary to make that decision. None of them constantly insulted their companion's physical appearance or their significant other.
I don't expect the Doctor to be human. I expect him to be smart. I expect that he will be "never cruel or cowardly," a phrase from the original Who if I'm not mistaken. Yet that's exactly what Twelve has been this season.
You know who had a reason to behave this way? Nine. And yet after going back to watch the first episode of the reboot last night, to wash the taste of the Season 8 finale out of my mouth (I just caught up via Netflix), I was struck by how much Eccleston smiles in that episode. Even after blowing up his entire planet to save the universe, he smiles and jokes to cover up the pain. Twelve literally had his worst tragedy reversed. He knows his planet is alive again. In addition that planet finally gave him a chance by giving him a whole new set of regenerations. What is he so goddamn bitter about? What right does he have to be such a rude jerk to people when he pretty much gets whatever he wants, with almost no consequences?
Four used to rag on Harry all the time. Six tried to strangle Peri - yes, he was still screwed up from regeneration, but he still did it. Seven told Fenric to go ahead and kill Ace so that Ace's faith would break and he would be able to trick Fenric. Nine called humans apes (stupid apes? I don't remember if he said that or not). Ten told Martha in "Smith and Jones" to leave another doctor behind because she would slow them down.
And what is Twelve bitter about? What right does he have to be a jerk? Well, that's who he is. That's his personality. Have you never seen anyone who had everything they wanted and was still a jerk? And Twelve spent his entire first series trying to figure out who he was - if he was a good man, or not. Remember, this is a Doctor who wouldn't exist if not for the Time Lords giving him a new regeneration cycle. That has to have an effect on a Time Lord (in fact, if Moffatt weren't such a hack, that would have been a neat story to tell - the story of a Doctor who didn't think he'd exist, as Smith's Doctor was supposed to be the final Doctor.)
And Twelve still doesn't know where Gallifrey is. It's not like he can just pop back there whenever he wants.
So that's why I don't have a problem with his personality. He is who he is. And if there are no consequences, who's really to blame for that? The scriptwriters are the ones who give them the words to say and write the stories that don't have the consequences in them. And Moffatt's the one in charge of all of them. Maybe this season, things will be different.
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In the thread for the Season 9 trailer, truther said:
Clara is a horrible human being, but so is the twelfth Doctor. In fact, if there was a consistent theme last season it was that it was the Doctor's influence that made her a horrible human being. So I'm suprised he doesn't get as much flak for the show's problems as she does. Capaldi is fine for the role but he's written as a disrespectful jerk most of the time. His relationship with Clara is toxic and hateful.
"Kill the Moon" was the worst episode for both characters (and my personal Worst Episode Ever). The Doctor withholding crucial info from Clara to get her to "make a choice" was stupid and cruel. Rational adults do not behave that way. Leaving someone to make a terrible moral choice without giving them all the facts is wrong. They are supposed to be a team. He betrayed her. Then again Eleven was disrespectful toward Clara too but that was also mostly ignored. Even he would have never done this, though.
Clara ignoring the people's vote (which was her idea) so that she could save a giant alien fetus that could have eaten the earth or destroyed it just by hatching was stupid and cruel. It made no sense. No rational adult would ever make that decision. It was the wrong decision; the narrative only tried to make it the right one by withholding information that no rational viewer would have ever guessed could be possible. She wasn't right because she weighed the options or figured anything out, like most companions would (and like she has done before). She was right just because.
Her outburst to the Doctor in that episode was understandable, but then she immediately starts traveling with him again and continues to make awful choices. In the tree episode she tells the Doctor not to save the children because they'll miss their parents(!), and not to save her because she doesn't want to be the last of her kind. It was at this point that I began to wonder if the show was being written by sociopaths who have only seen flash cards of human emotions.
So yes, Clara is awful. Some of that I think was definitely intentional--you couldn't accidentally write an arc like this, it's obvious she was supposed to parallel the Doctor and be corrupted by the time she spent with him. Some of it I think was supposed to be way more sympathetic than it ended up being. I wanted to like Clara and I genuinely found her more interesting this season even if often what made her interesting was what also made her such a terrible companion.
If we get a new companion I'll be happy, but that still leaves the Doctor. How will he treat his next one? To me just getting rid of Clara doesn't solve the problem because it was the Doctor who caused Clara's problems in the first place. He was openly disrespectful and condescending to her from the beginning of the season, and he's like that to mostly everyone. She retaliated by telling him to shut up and/or threatening to hit him in nearly every episode. I thought people were exaggerating when I read so many complaining about that but having finally caught up on Netflix (minus the Christmas special) it really is almost every episode!
I want a new Doctor AND a new companion who won't have such an adversarial relationship. But mostly? I want a new show runner. It's possible this dark arc could have been done well, even if the very idea bums me out, but it wasn't.
I think, and this is just my opinion, one thing you're missing or forgetting about the Doctor is that he's an alien. He's not human, no matter how much he likes us/tries to fit in with us. He's just not going to respond in the same way that someone like you or I would. Sometimes he's a jerk to people - the first Doctor almost bashed a caveman's skull in in "An Unearthly Child", until Ian stopped him, and then almost got them all killed in "The Daleks", because he wanted to explore the Dalek city so badly he pretended to sabotage the TARDIS. Four refused to help save someone in "The Seeds of Doom". Seven used and manipulated everyone around him, including Ace, to get what he wanted.
For every "do I have the right" scene the Doctor has, there's a scene that shows his darker side. Some of his incarnations are better at hiding it than others, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
As far as Clara goes, though - yeah. She's just a horrible person.
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As ditzy as Jo Grant was, though, she was one of the few people who was able to resist the Master's hypnosis. So she must have had more going on then she let on.
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Four liked Jelly Babies, although Troughton said he was the first one to have them (I think he had them in one story, but I don't remember which. Three was a food and wine connisseur, as seen in Day of the Daleks. Six had to fight off Mel's offers of carrot juice, Eleven loved fish fingers and custard, and Ten hated pears. The last thing he wanted to do after being John Smith for three months is to wake up and find he'd eaten a pear.
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Seven improved a lot when Ace got there. One of the many things that hampered Six was that he never had a decent companion. I think for a long time, JNT seemed to dismiss the companions as just pretty girls for the "dads" to look at; but, something changed about the time Ace showed up. Maybe he looked back and recognized some of the mistake he made; maybe he was afraid the show would get cancelled and he'd get the blame for it. All I know is that the last few seasons were better written, with better Doctor/Companion interaction, than anything since Five left.
It's a shame that the show was cancelled just when JNT seemed to be getting things back on track. But, at the end of the day, I still blame him for it. I know there were some BBC bigwigs gunning for it, but it was the terrible writing, and casting that went on for years, even when he knew the show was in trouble, that drove the audience away, and gave the BBC the ammunition they needed to pull the plug.
It didn't help that Eric Saward and JNT didn't get along toward the end of Colin Baker's run, or that the budget was about $40 a year. Luckily, Andrew Cartmel came along with the Cartmel Masterplan.
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I love the coat though. I think it suits Capaldi.
Though not confirmed yet, I think it's a safe bet to assume that Mark Gatiss will have written episode 9.
You know, one thing about Capaldi is that he can wear things you'd normally think were weird for someone his age, and they look good. LIke the hoodie and the shirt with holes last year (but not the black shirt with the big white dots). It's like Matt Smith's Doctor was an old man in a young man's body (something they wanted to do with Peter Davison, but never got to, if I remember right), and Capaldi's Doctor is kind of like a young man in an old man's body.
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It was transponster. I wonder if they ever figured out what he did.
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I cannot stand Rachel's "Save the Drama For Your Mama" shirt with the lips on it. Especially because it looked awful with the camo green skirt she paired it with.
I couldn't even figure out what it said until I saw somebody talking about it on the internet. I spent the entire episode trying to figure it out.
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Apparently, maroon coats are a popular theme in the Doctor's wardrobe - Pertwee had one or two, Tom Baker had the short one when he first started, and the long one when he left, and now Peter Capaldi's found the middle ground one.
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More impressions:
Been watching Retro's episodes with Doctor #5, and they're...something. I knew things were going to be odd when he regenerated dressed like a music-hall performer (yes, I realize that it's supposed to be an old cricketer's outfit). Then there were several episodes of "let my companions do the heavy lifting for a while." Then it turned out the he's frequently an outright jerk, and managed to acquire the most irritating companion duo so far; Tegan and Turlough. Oh, and can't forget the amazing vanishing companion Chameleon, who joined up and then vanished without a trace or a mention for several serials, until the time came to dump him. Nice.
The reason Kamelion didn't appear beyond his first and last stories was that the man who invented the robot and did all the programming died after Kamelion's first appearance, and nobody else knew how to work the thing. Kamelion was supposed to make an appearance in the first part of "The Awakening", but they cut the scene.
I found this on Wikipedia:
Behind the scenes
When Kamelion changed shape, it was played by the actor whose character's form it took. However, when in its default form, it was a true computer-controlled robot prop. The reason why the Kamelion robot was used fully only in two serials was that it was very difficult for the Doctor Who production team to control. It malfunctioned frequently, and things were only made worse when its inventor, Mike Power, died in a boating accident without leaving behind the knowledge of the complex codes that controlled it. A third appearance by the character in the serial The Awakening, designed to bridge the gap between its appearances and to remind viewers of its existence and the fact that it had been 'hiding' all this time somewhere in the TARDIS, was cut for timing reasons and was never broadcast. Thought lost forever, this scene was eventually recovered on a video copy of an early edit of The Awakening episode one, in the personal archive of the late Doctor Who producer John Nathan-Turner. Presented to the Doctor Who Restoration Team, it was included in the documentary Kamelion: Metal Man featured on the DVD release of The King's Demons.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamelion
Of course, with today's CGI, anything's possible.
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I think the new season's Clara/Doctor relationship will be more free and easy and "Companionable" than in season 8 since they've forgvien each other. Her for him not being Matt Smith, and him for Her not being Devoted to him and having an outside interest he disapproved of.
Well, that would be the third kind of relationship for them - first the Impossibe Girl thing, then last season's snoozefest, and then this. They do say the third time's the charm...
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The worst part of the Moving to France storyline was the way they simply dismissed the complication of Emma. When Rachel first announced the job offer, she said "They know about our situation with Emma, they will do whatever it takes to make it work." Ross said "Oh, okay." It was simply assumed Emma would go with Rachel. Then in the goodbye episode, Ross moans "I can't believe I'm not going to see Rachel everyday." How about your kid, Ross? She's going to be on the other side of the ocean. Remember, that's why you couldn't move to England with Emily?
Well, look at how often he saw Ben in the last few years of the show. Definitely Father of the Year material there...
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One thing I thought about while re-reading this thread: isn't it something, that in this day and age, when they'll CGI the streets in regular shows so that the buildings and stuff look different, two of the most popular and fondly remembered shows of the past twenty years have consisted of people acting with puppets (Farscape and MST3K). And the puppets are just as real and just as much a character as any of the humans.
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Season 9: Spoilers, Speculation and All Discussion In-between
in Doctor Who
· Edited by Ringthane
Well, if "Let's Kill Hitler" was really the first meeting, then what a waste of a potentially great story.