RainOnToosdays
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S05.E15: Try
in S05
Big gasp when Pete punched Jesse when she tried to break up the fight, but an even bigger one from me when Rick sent Carl flying when he tried to break them up.
I suspect that in the heat of fight like that, you notice nothing except that other hands are on you and you react .. I would be surprised if Rick and Pete could even recall who interfered, who they might have hurt in throwing them off.
I too hate that Rick said (when talking to Jessie about Pete) that he wouldn't do it for anyone else. And now I know how I feel about Jessie. I don't like her. She played Pete and Rick like Lori played Rick and Shane. Her words said leave it alone, go away, I can take care of myself .. but her eyes and actions said different. As soon as he said no, only her he would do it for, she knew she had crazy-guy wrapped. Thus why she spoke right up when Pete entered and she told him to leave. Because Rick was standing right there! She could have told Rick to leave instead and given the husband some bullshit story about why Rick was there and then taken some time to think things over and come up with a plan. But no, instead of defusing the situation she lit the fuse by trying to give Pete the boot right then, in front of Rick, knowing full well it would erupt into an opportunity for Rick to kill Pete.
Her idea of taking care of herself seems to be letting another man take care of her. Like Lori.
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I think this is where the perceptions diverge. The press, Production, the actors and actresses themselves can write/say/tweet/blog/etc. anything they wish, and I may read it, enjoy it, and even use it for post fodder - but when I'm watching the show, I totally divorce from the extraneous commentary. Because to me, it's not canon until it appears in the show. Particularly the actor/actress-stated backstories, because some past statements have given me the impression the performers come up with at least some of that on their own to fill in backstory gaps left (intentionally or unintentionally) by TPTB.
THAT.
I go out of my way to avoid not reading or watching anything related to the show (except for this forum). I don't want to be spoiled but I also don't want my perceptions clouded by, as you say, "extraneous commentary" even if, or more aptly, especially if, it's coming from one of the actors themselves as they have personal motivations for spinning their character one way or the other.
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Could we please at least wait until after her third episode? Aaron's already way more than "Carrier of pictures." Think of the current title as a placeholder.
A placeholder. Exactly. I'll go with whatever the majority wants but would like to wait until these last two episodes are over and we have more about her to derive witty blurbs from.
"Owl be seeing you" made me chuckle though. Could really run with the I'll/Owl play on words. Which reminds me, I thought "I Noah guy" was brilliant. But now it should be "I used to Noah Guy". :(
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At some point Rick will have proof positive that Pete is an abuser, given the small confines of the town. As the law (and because he has feelings for Jessie), he'll be bound to investigate. Pete will become belligerent. Things will escalate until there is a confrontation, leading to Rick having to kill Pete either to protect Jessie and the children, or himself. He'll be forced to kill Pete in the end.
I'd have it go down like this ..
Sam gets his hands on a gun. Some situation boils over in the Jessie/Pete (do they have a last name?) household. Sam points the gun at his father. Rick and Carol show up along with whoever else they want to put in the scene. Everyone ends up pointing their guns at each other. Perhaps Pete even has Jessie in a stronghold, like a hostage. It's tense. Put the gun, down, Sam, noone wants to see the kid shoot his own father. (Remember Carl and his emotional turmoil over whether he needed his dad or not? and then he couldn't do the deed when he thought he had turned?). It's a stand off. Who's going to make a move? And then Pete decides what the hell, it's not worth it and turns a gun on himself. (Abusive men are cowards so killing himself works.) Though of course they would frame it so it looks like he shot Jessie, but after commrecial we'll see he shot himself.
Problems solved. Pete is removed from the equation and no-one has to take the blame/guilt, there won't be months of discussion over whether it was right or not for [insert name here] to have killed him and whether they did it for legit reasons (to protect Jessie or the kids or the community as a whole) or to just further their own inner purpose (vengeance on an abuser or to "get the girl").
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At some point Rick will have proof positive that Pete is an abuser, given the small confines of the town. As the law (and because he has feelings for Jessie), he'll be bound to investigate. Pete will become belligerent. Things will escalate until there is a confrontation, leading to Rick having to kill Pete either to protect Jessie and the children, or himself. He'll be forced to kill Pete in the end.
Wanted to comment on that but probably better suited for the Speculation thread. Where ever that is. I'm taking my response there when I find it.
- Noah's death was the most horrific thing I've seen on this show, ever, incredibly amplified by Glenn's magnificent reaction. Emmy for Steven Yeun.
I've been thinking more on that and Aidan's death scene. Over the top compared to anything we've seen before and they lingered on them for so long. Apparently there was a different director on this episode and that surely accounts for some of it but I think now these scenes were more horrific then most in order to really bring home the contrast between "out there" and Alexandria. Two episodes of relative calm and then BLAM! we're jolted out of our stupor.
Also have to say , it ought to be a Cardinal Rule that no matter what, always, always, save at least one bullet per person so you can put people down and spare them the horrific agonizing death of being eaten alive.
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Loved Abraham going one-man-wrecking-crew on the herd of zombies. Love his funny little lines, too. "Mother dick." instead of "HOLY SHIT!" for example. There was a lot of talk over Rick saying "they're screwing with the wrong people" instead of using the F word. I agree that in that scene, for Rick, the F word would have been a better choice. But with Abraham, the non-cussing cursing is effective and humorous. He may be straight out of the comics but it somehow works for him.
They set it up to make us think Eugene was abandoning Tara so I actually cheered on the reveal that he was actually carrying her out. You go Eugene! I always knew you had it in you. And it had to be Tara. Didn't she say to him once something along the lines of .. "you're one of us now, that's just how we do for each other"? And then we got a surprise bonus round of hero-Eugene when he drove up in the van and lured the walkers away. Well played, Show.
I like Carol & Sam. She looked so exasperated when he actually came back with two piece of chocolate. She sent him on a wild goose chase to get rid of him but dam, he actually did it, now she's stuck, LOL. I saw their whole thing together as like a stray dog coming around and you vow to yourself not to name it or feed it so as not to get attached. Kids and dogs both, sometimes there is just no explaining why they are drawn to the people they are drawn to.
Aidan and Noah's deaths were exceptionally over-the-top gory & went on too long. Yeah, it's a zombie show but don't need to go all-out slasher-flick.
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I don't feel like I really know enough about her to have much of an opinion yet. Yes, on first glance she does seem like she may be a little bland but she's only two episodes in and they're obviously going somewhere with her character so I'm taking a wait and see.
See, I don't see her as bland, and I feel that people are projecting a blank canvas onto a character they wouldn't have hated or seen as bland except for the fact that all her interactions have been with Rick and people don't want to like her.
I call her bland ["lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting"] because until the Show gives us more of her, that fits her to a T. Thus the thread title. I don't mean it as an insult, just as a description. It is my hope that if she is going to be around for a while, if she's going to be integral to the storyline, that the writers do something with that blank canvas to make it interesting. For a long while I was totally dis-interested in Beth and Sasha and Noah, they were just "eh" for me, I didn't care one way of the other about them. But slowly they won my interest over time; I'm hoping the same will hold true for Jessie.
Some characters get such a great entrance (Gabriel & Aaron for example) that they pull me in from the start; others just get stuck with a more hum-drum intro and thus don't make much of an impression at first.
Even for those that aren't angry because Michonne supposedly had some claim on Rick, I think there's still this feeling that only the most awesomest character ever deserves to be with Rick because he sets female fan's hearts aflutter and he's the male lead.
I agree but putting my own personal two-cents in (as a hetero female), he doesn't do anything for me. Sure, he is good looking, but he isn't "hot" as he holds no sex-appeal for me. I don't "ship" anyone on the show, I don't care who, if anyone, Rick gets romantically/sexually involved with, but it will bother me if they have him getting involved on that level with a married woman. I don't want him going the route of Walter White, from hero to anti-hero to straight-up bad guy. I want Rick to be the one who knocks, but with scruples. I'm OK with him biting someone's throat out and violently slaughtering the SOBs at the church, but messing with a married woman, I just can't. I know, makes no sense, but there it is.
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I don't think anyone does. I'm sure Carol is happy to keep it that way, because I think she feels a lot of guilt over it. Didn't Tyrese try to convince her to tell the group, and she resisted?
Hmm. I thought Tyrese asked/told Carol that "we don't have to tell anyone what we did/what happened right?". Something like that. I remember thinking, what a putz, he's not even the one who had to do anything, he left it up to Carol to handle and thus have all the guilt, and now he doesn't want her unburdening herself to anyone because it would be hard for him. And then Carol went through that phase at the church feeling like maybe she shouldn't be around anyone, and she wouldn't open up even when Daryl pressed her.
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When they had that moment on the catwalk....where he reached out and touched her shoulder, it seemed to be that he really did love her, but was having a hard time getting past everything.
Hee. I just mentioned that, too. I saw it more as sympathy-pat though. Which is way I thought it was so sad for Lori. The man she loves and misses and this is all she gets from him now.
I think that's why Lori's death was so crippling to Rick. They had all that unfinished business. I think he was just wracked with guilt, for not forgiving her sooner and losing her while they were still in such a bad place.
Totally agreed.
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And can someone help explain why Rick was so cold to Lori in the beginning of season 3? I never quite got that.
--------------------It was more a mutual chill than anything else.
I didn't like Lori either but when they got to the prison (was that the beginning of S3?), I really felt bad for her. She's in a miserable physical condition in a hot, humid climate with none of the modern luxuries or conveniences to make it easier on her, and her husband and son are both being horrid to her. She's been reduced to having the other women look after her, the former Queen Bee. I think even Beth spoke up for her once, telling Carl, "she's your Mom, you can't talk to her that way". How humiliating. To be pitied by those she once thought she was above. And in the real world, when you're having marital problems, you and your spouse can keep your dirty laundry to yourself and put on a happy face when in public. But in this environment, you can't, you all are always together, it's awkward for everyone and everyone knows your sins.
I didn't (and still don't) understand why Carl was being such a turd towards her. I know he loved Shane but he had no reason to be ticked at his mother unless he knew about all the crap that went down between Lori/Rick/Shane and blamed his mom for his death. How would he know unless Rick told him? Which would have been totally wrong, you don't talk to you kids about adult stuff like that so I can't see Rick having done that, turning his kid against his mother. Maybe with the obvious rift between his parents he just took a side in being loyal to his Dad without actually knowing why they were on the outs?
Anyway, there was one scene where Rick and Lori were talking on the "deck" outside the prison and Rick briefly put his hand on her shoulder and she was rubbing her cheek against that spot while watching him walk away. That affected me much more than her death scene did. So sad and dejected, longing for his touch, for her husband, for the way things used to be. Too sad. So I think by that point, the chill was mostly one-sided.
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Since she doesn't have a thread yet I figured I'd go ahead and start one before the episode threads get over-run with Jessie & The Kiss stuff, LOL. (I'll start by saying that I think it's notable that that kiss, a simple cheek buss planted on a woman by a man, has garnered more reaction than the passionate lip-lock between two men.)
My take on Jessie is that she is Beth 2.0 minus the ponytail. If you read back through the threads, pretty much every adjective & comment used to describe Jessie fit Beth, too. Sheltered. Bland. Innocent. Naive. Soft. Kind. Useless. A Pollyana. Someone doing a good job of putting on a happy face and trying to stay positive. There's Beth trying to pull Daryl out of his funk, here's Jessie trying to pull Rick out of his. ... Jessie thinks she's tough ("I can take care of myself") even though as far as we know yet she hasn't been through much hardship. Beth thought she was tough too, and look where that got her.
There was much dis-interest in Beth, a lot of people just couldn't muster up any reason to care about her. And then too of course there were all the people who were interested enough to hate her. And now here's bland, blonde, Jessie, bringing out all the same reactions in people, for all the same reasons (minus the love/lust interest for Rick angle of course).
Right now, I am in the category of "just can't muster up any interest". My curiosity was piqued more by Olivia? the inventory clerk "bring me back a boar's leg" girl. If Jessie is going to be a cast member for any length of time, I hope TPTB can bring her up a notch on the interest scale otherwise I am just going to resent the screen time she it taking from others I'd prefer to see like Gabriel and Eugene who have ben almost non-existent lately.
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Which reminds me; we also need to agree on nickname for the youngest boy.
I like your creatiion. We could call him Skidmark? Everybody?
Oh, please no. I already detest the Father Pee Pants moniker, I don't wanna' see another pee/poo related nickname. [whine]
Nicknames of that genre sound like a third-grade playground taunt and this is such a great group, intelligent discussion, insightful comments, humorous takes .. I guess I just don't like the whiff of immaturity those type names exude.
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Just looked at the screencap site posted above and the pics make me think of something I didn't during the show.
Where/how did Alexandria get all those guns?!
Certainly they weren't left behind by the upper-crust families that once inhabited this small community. And they seem far too many to be just from newcomers checking them in on arrival as there doesn't seem to be all that many people in ASZ. They had such a surplus that they were storing handguns in the freezer, so many that Carol said they wouldn't even notice they were gone. Are they getting them from runs? They said they have only made it 53 miles out so far. They've found that many weapons in an area that was evacuated? Wouldn't people have taken their weapons with them?
Maybe the Alexandrians are more bad-azz then we think. Maybe they were obtained from a group of baddies that invaded and somehow failed in their take-over attempt. Like Terminus. Didn't that start out as a nice place, then a group of real baddies took over, then somehow the Termites were able to regain control on go on being a nice, polite society (except thy ate people). ?
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On rewatch I think I figured out when Daryl started trusting Aaron. When Daryl told him to go ahead and pointed to the horse to put it down you could see how upset Aaron was, and Daryl noticed that big time. He almost seems shocked by it.
He was probably thinking, "You think that's hard, kid? I had to put my own brother down."
This, in quadruple spades. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person on the planet who saw it that way. What I saw:
- Rick hears a rattle of metal.
- Fearing the worst - a walker has gotten through - he charges over to (hopefully) close the breach and stem the bloodbath which would inevitably follow if a herd got in amongst the ASZhats.
- Rick gets there to find... nothing. A walker came up against the Wall - but the Wall held with no problem, and the walker is simply jostling against it with no effect.
- Rick feels something close to a sense of wonder at the stark realization: unlike so many in the past, this is a Wall which WORKS.
I thought for sure it was going to be Enid coming back over the wall.
I interpreted #4 as it hitting home with Rick that it IS all fake, as we just heard Sasha tell Deanne. You have 2-3 blocks of normalcy to stroll around in but then you hit the wall, that's as far as your world goes. I think he had a sense of relief that it couldn't get in, it wasn't a threat, but I also think he was longing to be on the other side. Thus the wall-stroking. He's grateful for the safety it provides but also knows it's a cage.
I have to use the after show to see if I'm getting where they're going with it sometimes.
I think they should do away with The Talking Dead. A show needs to stand on its own. If I need supplemental material (the books or the after-show) to make me understand what is going on then the show is doing a pisspoor job of telling the story. If something doesn't happen, or isn't conveyed to us, through the show itself then it doesn't count to me. So I don't often watch TTD. I don't want my perception clouded by what is said there rather then on the show itself. I did watch some of the last one though and it boggled my mind that "Jessie" was giving a detailed backstory to her character ...
we met in college, I got pregnant accidentally, he went to med school so he could provide well for us
... WHAT? Certainly didn't cover that history during our few brief meetings of Jessie on the show so far but now that info is out there and trivial as it seems, speculations can be spun from it. Like,
maybe Jessie was fooling around with someone else and the baby wasn't Reg's but he married her and raised it as his own anyway. (Shades of Ric & Judith anyone?). Maybe he didn't know until much later the child wasn't his and he resents her and thus there's this tension in the marriage. Or maybe the kid is his. Who knows.
The point is, see what a few loose details provided outside the show can do? :( I think that the writers use TTD as a crutch .. "we only have 53 minutes to tell this story so no time for X Y Or Z so we'll just put the actor on TTD to explain it ... " Bah.
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Last week I grumbled a bit about Coral's extremely weak knife-fighting position when he was opening that door. This time around, I realized that, due to the direction that the door was built to swing open, he was holding it left handed, which I seriously doubt he's used to. Now, I actually like the scene. It's a nice little touch of environmentally-induced awkwardness.
In the father-son zombie bash outside the walls, Carl was using the knife in his left hand. Maybe Chandler Riggs is a lefty?
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Nice touch with the plans/blue prints in the corner behind the couch though.
Oh, I had forgotten about that! Yeah, that made me wonder. ???
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I never did chime in on what I thought of this episode. Not much to say that hasn't already been said. I liked the episode but I also hated it because of how uncomfortable it made me feel, if that makes sense. I get that we were seeing how things used to be, how things could have been, if the ZA hadn't of happened. I get that our gang finally has arrived at a place and way of life they think they want to get back to and we are supposed to be relieved and happy for them. But I don't like it. Not one bit.
Carl having to go to school and ask permission to go visit friends? No thanks. Having jobs, having to keep up appearances, having to make nicey-nice with neighbors. No thanks. And noone puts Daryl in a corner, LOL.
Our gang has been through hell, sure, but they have also been free. FREE! I just can't get on board with them having to or being willing to going back to the constraints of a "civilized" society.
When Deanne(sp?) checked in on them that first night and said something about how remarkable it is that people from such varied backgrounds with nothing in common can form such strong family bonds ... Everyone was looking around at each other. I think she is trying to drive a wedge between them all. It may have sounded nice but it was a "backhanded compliment" so to speak. It was insidious.
She's making them all question their associations with each other (which wouldn't have come about in the Before) and I don't like it. I think in her interview with Rick she actually said that what you were Before DOES matter. It doesn't matter with our group but she is trying to make them think it does. I don't know what her motives are yet but I don't like it.
I loved that they all spent the night together, not just in the same house but in the same room. They did it for practical reasons, sure, but still, it speaks to how comfortable they all are with each other, showered or not, LOL. That's a slumber party I want to be part of.
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Yeah, but they were all furnished. And what was up with the empty picture frames by the door? It was like they rounded up all the frames in the house, removed the pictures, and stacked them there. That scene is what made me think "where are the people that originally lived there?"
With new "planned communities", the units are often in a wide state of "done-ness". There'll be a 'model home', decorated/staged down to the last detail, which is often used as the sales office. Then you might have units that are already being lived in next to units where construction hasn't even finished yet. If a unit hasn't been pre-sold, building can only go so far. Once it's sold and the builder knows what "upgrades" are wanted - choice of flooring, counters, fixtures, etc.. - then it can be completed.So you can have fully furnished completed units next to units that are still under construction next to units where construction is finished but the details (floors, fiixtures, etc...) haven't been done yet.
All that said, I too was perplexed by the empty picture frames stacked on the bench by the door. Also, I took the virtual tour of ASZ and what I most noticed was the amount of books in the Monroe's unit. They were everywhere, some neatly displayed in the bookcases, others just messily piled. Also there were two things that looked like antique spotting scopes? in there, and an industrial stapler sitting on the mantle. I can explain to myself the books and the scopes? but that stapler - what the heck? Does that have some significance or was it just an odd choice of props by the set designers?
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On, rewatch, it's so interesting to me to see clean shaven Rick talking to unclean Daryl. Just by sight, Rick looks like his old, original self, but Daryl looks like "current" Daryl, having gone through all the things he has, with Rick. It's a juxtaposition kind of moment for me.
I think we were seeing what people were Before. Thus "Remember". Carl as a kid going to school and playing video games; Rick as a fresh-faced law man, Carol as a mousy housewife. But Daryl looking and behaving the same as he always has because he is still who he was Before. (Only now he is valued, respected, loved, for his ways). The ZA didn't change Daryl, it just gave him a leg-up in the hierarchy.
Daryl didn't fit in with the Before and thus he doesn't fit in in this place that is mimicing the Before. And he knows it. He's clearly uncomfortable.
His pacing in his "interview" and then the pacing like a caged animal after the dust-up with Glen & Aidan. Loved that and loved the shot of him sitting in the corner of the porch when Rick asked if he was coming and he said no. The vertical porch spindles around him were a strong visual metaphor for him being caged/jailed. Maybe I am giving the Show to much credit but that was spot-on. In the Before he very well could have ended up in jail, in the fake Before they are in now, he's like a caged animal.
Unlike the others he can't pretend to be who he was before because this IS who he was before.
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She said when they arrived they found brochures saying the houses sold for 800k. I didn't think she said one way or another if they'd already been sold. I'm assuming if they were occupied those people were evacuated just like Deanna was. Just Deanna went later or took a different route (she said she was on a back road) that the Army knew wasn't safe to let her continue on. The Army knew about the area and sent here there. They probably knew about it because they'd already evacuated everyone out of there, if anyone lived there yet.
She did say that they all were sold. I remember because her tone was sort of like "can you believe it? $800K and they all sold".
But that doesn't mean they were occupied. They could have been pre-sold by the developer.
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Chandler Riggs mentioned this on his instagram a couple days ago:
chandlerriggs5: if any of you were wondering why carl is completely dominating noah in this game of poker: neither one of us knew how to play, so josh showed us how. after a few rounds of being really confused and terrible, i started getting lucky, and before we shot this scene they started rolling the cameras, so everyone bet all the chips they had. i ended up winning, thus making carl the poker god of the apocalypse.
Hah! Never occurred to me they were actually playing cards. Thanks for that.
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I didn't laugh quite as much this week:
http://m.imgur.com/a/kKWns (Photo recap)
In this one - http://i.imgur.com/xHLB8f6.jpg - Carl has all the chips.
Noah is all out.
With the poker theme we have going on in ASZ this can't be an accident.
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Molding into a new lifestyle proves difficult for the group.
What did Joe say? "Nothing sadder than an outdoor cat who thinks he's an indoor cat." That's our gang now, all feral cats who are going to have a tough time trying to re-adjust to a way of life they think they want to get back to.
http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/how_to_what_is_feral_cat
A "feral" cat is a cat who has reverted in some degree to a wild state. They originate from former domestic cats who were lost or abandoned and then learned to live outdoors or in environments involving little human contact, such as warehouses, factories or abandoned buildings. In most cases, feral cats are not completely wild because they still depend on people for their food source, whether it's a caretaker who comes by once or twice a day, a dumpster outside a restaurant, garbage cans, or the like. Relatively few feral cats subsist only by hunting.
Yep, that's our gang.
To what degree a feral cat is wild depends on several factors. Foremost, is the age of the cat. Young kittens are more capable of being socialized and successfully re-introduced to domestic life than a feral adult.
Carl.
Another factor is what generation feral is the cat. A kitten born outdoors to a mother who was herself formerly domestic is likely to socialize easier than one born to a mother who is seventh generation feral.
Judith.
Finally, there's the wild card factor, which is the particular cat's personality.
Rick.
It's not unheard of for someone to tame an older, multi-generational feral who has been largely isolated from people, but this is the exception.
Herschel except for the multi-generational part. .
Many well-meaning people, convinced they are "saving" a feral cat by bringing him indoors, end up condemning the poor creature to a life of hiding under the bed and being in constant fear.Grady Hospital.
But the return of them to their own territory and the providing of adequate food and shelter gives them the opportunity to live among their own, to be free and to answer to their own unique natures.
Translates to: Alexandria isn't going to wrok out, they need to get back to Atlanta.
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Aaron: I have applesauce!
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S05.E15: Try
in S05
Why did Deanne take the note but leave the casserole on the porch?
And why did Carol just leave it on the porch anyway?
Deanne wants a civilized society and that's what people do in a civilized society - take meals to the family in mourning.