S15.E11: The Men Tell All

[Crs97]

23 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

What if the man gets mad at the woman and tells her it's all off because she flirted at the party?  Is she allowed to come by the next day and try to make up? 

If her plan is she tells him that she knows he didn’t know what he was doing yesterday when he ended things, that she isn’t leaving till she gets closure, that she will continue to explain to him why he is wrong until he accepts she is the victim here, and that they aren’t over till she says they’re over; then my answer is “No, she isn’t allowed to try to make up.”

I admit I am anti-current Luke.  I had a sister and close friend in abusive marriages.  One got out before it became violent (although she still was a granted a year long restraining order and then granted a renewal for another year - PSA, screaming at the judge does not make him decide to drop a restraining order against you).  The other wasn’t so lucky, though she did get out before he killed her.  Many of Luke’s reactions/comments/behavior remind me too much of them; and I don’t think it’s worth the risk.  As I said, I hope he gets the help he needs, but all the “he’s the victim” comments made by his family and friends aren’t helping.

I would snark on Tyler’s short pants, but they all were wearing that style.  Is this the new fashion?  It’s not good, though my very fast-growing, “I sprung up 3 inches overnight” teenaged boys might benefit from it.

[Stinamaia]

4 hours ago, waving feather said:

Sure, but during MTA, Luke seems over her and didn't show any over-the-top emotions when he saw her but Hannah was all over the place. Why is she so hung up on what he did months later. She didn't want closure with him at that rose ceremony but I felt like she's the one who needs closure now.

We don’t know what may have been the background for Hannah’s rawness at the MTA.  I do know that as one who has been through the gaslighting experience, it does leave one angry and raw, not just at the gaslighter  but also at one’s self. It does replay in one’s mind quite a bit. One thinks it’s all gone and then a new memory pops up, and one thinks, Oh my god. That was part of it too!  

Hannah talked about her insecurity at the beginning, and I do think she hasn’t yet found her true strength.  

We learn so much with time. I have to remember Hannah and Luke are very young. I was stupid too when young, hence the gaslighting experience. 

It’s interesting to me how many times a man is censured for objectively bad behavior, and women rush to his defense and condemn the woman who has been badly treated.  Regardless of religious beliefs, manipulations and lying and denying what actually happened are wrong.   It’s a painful thing to get through and embarrassing.  Whether someone likes or dislikes Hannah doesn’t alter this.

[JenE4]

i think Hannah and Luke are both in the wrong and I also see their points. In the battle of Shower Jesus vs Windmill Jesus, might I offer up Gristmill Jesus? (Is that what it’s called a riverside mill wheel that’s powered by water?) Sure, Luke was relentless when he refused to leave, but Hannah was needlessly cruel that this was HER show and only HER feelings mattered: Be gone! Why couldn’t she give him the courtesy of a “Can I walk you out?” 2-minute chat to help give him that closure? Granted, I understand that suddenly the hearts cleared from her eyes and she saw what the other guys were telling her all along. But from what we heard her say, too, it sounds like she and Luke both thought they were fated by God to be, love at first sight. Even though there were TONS of red flags that she chose to ignore, from Luke’s perspective, they were going to get married up until she “misunderstood” what he was trying to say. In real life, you WOULD try to have a conversation and talk through the misunderstanding, not just call the whole thing off! Yet, from Hannah’s perspective it was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back—which, okay, understandable for her, too. So, long story short—they’re both terrible but not necessarily wrong.

[Mabinogia]

They were just not right for each other but both were too blinded by their chosen faith to face it until it got to a very bad point where I do think she had to be cruel because if she had walked him out he would have seen that as a sign she was wearing down and if he just kept pushing she would be his. 

I think the big problem was that they weren't listening to each other. They had an ideal of what each other were based on their shared religion, even though, though both Christian, they clearly have different beliefs. Neither are wrong if their beliefs work for them. What they were both wrong in was trying to force those beliefs onto the other person just because they wanted that person to believe the same. 

On paper they have a lot in common. Unfortunately one of the things they have in common is stubbornness and a need to be in charge. Two people who both need to be in charge rarely work well together. 

They are both quite young, both in age and in life experience, so hopefully they will both grow out of their issues, and boy do they have a lot of issues between them. The reason I am more pro Hannah is that I do think she is starting to realize she has a lot to learn while Luke still seems to think he's perfect and the rest of the world is too flawed to see it. 

[riff-raff]

I may be showing my age, as perhaps cultural norms have changed, but when I was younger, I don't think I ever ended a relationship without the guy  coming back or calling a couple of times trying to convince me I was wrong.   Some of those conversations were pretty intense with a lot of focus on what the guys wanted and needed.  I did not find it particularly pleasant to keep explaining that the relationship is over.  However, I did not consider the guy to be a psychopath or stalker.   I've also had repeated calls/sending flowers, etc., after declining a first or second date with a guy.   I've never enjoyed unwanted persistence, but one or two second attempts did not equate to stalker territory in my mind. 

While I would have respected Luke a LOT more, had he simply left the first time he was asked, I'm loath to label him a monster without more information.  I think some of the dynamic here was that Hannah was not sure of her decisions and sent mixed signals.  When Luke was "allowed to come back" the first time, she gave him more roses, went to visit his family, and continued having hot and heavy make out sessions with him.  These do not seem like the typical actions of someone who truly wants a relationship to end.  

The other dynamic was that I think  production was encouraging Luke's persistence.   If he was being told that Hannah had second thoughts, that she told them that "he was the one," etc., he returning seems less crazy.  In fact, if Luke really was some sort of psychopath -- and production had a lot more opportunities to truly know him -- to allow him continued  access to Hannah and engineer his "returns," verges on criminal conduct.  

No, I think production saw an emotional,"prideful" and unsophisticated person they could easily manipulate for their desired story line.    I also think the reason they sold that storyline so hard, and that it dominated the season as it did, was because Hannah simply didn't give them much else to work with.  

She is not an articulate person or interesting conversationalist and she could not carry the role of the show's narrator as leads usually do.  She didn't seem to have the ability to draw other men to her and form credible relationships with them.  The most passion any of these guys felt was their shared hatred of Luke.   

Edited July 25, 2019 by riff-raff

[limecoke]

So much I want to say but I can't seem to get a lot of clarity (see how I did that?) on how I feel about this whole season of The Bachelorette.  It started out well and I thought Hannah was going to be a better 'Ette than I thought she would.  Nothing but downhill from there.  I do think there were some good guys among the 30 but the show became so wrapped up in Hannah's personal narrative which was, "I'm special, I'm important, I deserve to be loved, I deserve to have the best."  It was an ongoing theme.

Enter Luke P.  Aside from his looks, I'm guessing the initial attraction might have been the "shared faith" thing but neither one recognized they weren't talking about the same "faith."  Luke seemed to be all words plus that big 'ole cross he wore around his neck.  Neither of which make you a Christian.  That might sound all judgy but I'm going by how he treated the guys in the house.  Allowing for editing, there seemed to be universal agreement that no one could stand him.  Even Jonathan said at TMTA that he was a man of faith but went off Luke P eventually.  You can say it but if you don't live it, it doesn't mean much.

Hannah's "faith" seemed to be her own interpretation of Jesus and the words He used in scripture.  I'm not an expert but even I know you can't pick and choose where scripture is concerned.  Indeed Jesus used the "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone..."  He did.  What Hannah conveniently forgot to mention was that Jesus also told the adulterous woman to, "...go and sin no more."  

I think this was the worst TMTA of the entire show.  It was uncomfortable, skeevy and entirely too much focus was given to Luke P and then Hannah's wounded pride.  Frankly, I ceased to care about either one of them.  As a Christian, I found Luke to be an embarrassment throughout the series.  He either hasn't a clue or is painfully immature in his faith.  He came off as a stalker, a manipulator and downright creepy.  

As for Hannah, she's a child.

Far less seriously, I have always been disturbed by the gorgeous Tyler's little boy pants but at that Rose Ceremony, I could clearly see his "panty line".  Not a good look.  Maybe he should try and size up a bit.  Too many of these guys look like Wally trying to wear The Beaver's suit.  (Only the old will get that reference.)

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, limecoke said:

Too many of these guys look like Wally trying to wear The Beaver's suit.  (Only the old will get that reference.)

...and I'm officially old now! 

That was a great description though. It is like Wally trying to squeeze into The Beaver's suit. I really don't get it. Apparently people are saying it is a trend in menswear right now? I don't follow clothing trends and I mostly work in a conservative non-trendy office so I haven't noticed. If so...STOP! It looks stupid. Even Tyler can't really pull it off. The only reason he gets away with it is I'm too busy looking at his chiseled features to notice his man jeggings. lol

[DEL901]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Wasn't this all part of that same day where they had both  been madly in love in the afternoon?  Sure, Luke should have gone straight home the minute she showed him what she could be  like at the first breath of anything other than lavish praise,  but I'm just not ready to get a restraining order on a guy until he's had a day or two to realize there's no  chance to work it out. 

What if the man gets mad at the woman and tells her it's all off because she flirted at the party?  Is she allowed to come by the next day and try to make up? 

It isn't just about him wanting another chance, something he got when he was allowed back from his first ejection, it was about him telling her she didn't have clarity and he knew her feelings better than she did... basically saying he knew better what she felt than she did. YMMV

[deSchenke]

10 years ago, sagging pants was the trending men's fashion.  Now it has gone way too far the other way.

Why not wear pants that fit?

[riff-raff]

28 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

It isn't just about him wanting another chance, something he got when he was allowed back from his first ejection, it was about him telling her she didn't have clarity and he knew her feelings better than she did... basically saying he knew better what she felt than she did. YMMV

You raise a good point.  I have more of a problem with this aspect of his personality than the so-called slut-shaming or "stalker" behavior.    It's a pretty arrogant thing to say.   I've done my share of defending Luke, but I can see there are issues with him too.   If he takes away anything from this experience, it should be that he needs to learn to listen to, and respect, other people's viewpoints.   One part of gaining maturity is realizing that you don't know everything, and that you and your feelings are not the center of the universe.  

[SassyCat]

Remember a handful of years back when they started making men's suits more "fashionable"? To who..I don't know, but I hated the new look and noticed it right off the bat. The jackets got tighter and the sleeves a bit shorter so it looked like it was someone borrowing a smaller man's suit. The button at the waist clinched it tighter and there was a tad bit more material added, just after button height which made the jacket kind of flare out a little. Skirt-like. The pants started tapering thinner then too.  It looked incredibly feminine. I hated the "New look" men were being sold. They thought they were being stylish. That's what they were told.

Over time the sleeves have gotten even shorter, the pants tighter and now they've slipped in the short "flood pants" we used to call them when we were younger. It was a rank on people who's pants were too short and might have been expecting a flood and didn't want the bottom hems of their pants to get wet.

So the man's suit is being more feminized looking, and most men, not being fashion hounds are being sucked into wearing these stupid looking garments that probably cost a good amount, because they want to keep up with the times, or maybe there are no more normal man suits available in the suit stores. Who knows? But it's awful.

[LuvMyShows]

5 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

It’s interesting to me how many times a man is censured for objectively bad behavior, and women rush to his defense and condemn the woman who has been badly treated. 

[coughRihannacough]

[riff-raff]

Two days ago in a beach town, I saw a young man wearing the uber-tight capris along with leather shoes and no socks.   Yes, I thought, this really is the fashion of the young.

I'm kind of gleeful, actually.  It's about time men felt the stress of all these ridiculous, uncomfortable clothes the fashion industry likes to thrust upon us.  In a couple of years, when everyone's budget is blown on these trendy clothes, and everyone's feet stink from wearing leather shoes without socks, Big Fashion will roll out baggy trousers and anyone trying to get one last wear out of those stupid capris will look like a rube.  

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, SassyCat said:

"flood pants" we used to call them when we were younger.

haha, we called the "high waters". Same concept. They were pants that wouldn't get wet in flood waters. How that became a "look" is beyond me. Then again, I grew up in the 80s so I really have no right to judge this generations fashion choices. haha

That Tyler looks as good as he does in such ridiculous pants makes me worried for my heart if I were to see him in a perfectly tailored suit. *swoon*

[SassyCat]

24 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

haha, we called the "high waters". Same concept. They were pants that wouldn't get wet in flood waters. How that became a "look" is beyond me. Then again, I grew up in the 80s so I really have no right to judge this generations fashion choices. haha

That Tyler looks as good as he does in such ridiculous pants makes me worried for my heart if I were to see him in a perfectly tailored suit. *swoon*

Lol, yup. We called them "high waters" too,  which then flood pants evolved from.

You're right. Tyler would be gorgeous in a normal suit.

[Arkay]

I remember, vaguely, hearing the term "high water pants, " but if memory serves it was more of an insult. I think the implication was someone too poor to afford new pants when the old ones were outgrown. 

[GracieK]

While I’m not a fan of full on capris for men.. I guess I’m in the minority that doesn’t mind Tyler’s style (Garrett too) which sometimes includes cropped pants and salmon jackets.. resort wear/Lilly Pulitzer styles. I like the preppy, golf pro, country club look... as long as the wearer isn’t an arrogant jerk off. Tyler doesn’t appear to be.. Garrett probably is. 

[SassyCat]

1 hour ago, Arkay said:

I remember, vaguely, hearing the term "high water pants, " but if memory serves it was more of an insult. I think the implication was someone too poor to afford new pants when the old ones were outgrown. 

Oh yes. That would be an insult, a mean one, if that was the way it was viewed and referred to in the spirit of the slight. 

In my town, area, peer group, it was more like a good natured dig, a joke and everyone would laugh, including the flood pants wearer. You knew when you were wearing uncool ankle biting high waters, but it was rare, and most likely because of laundry day or something like that. 
I recall if someone consistently wore high waters all the time, we would think of them as nerds.

 Also back in those days they didn't make pants for taller slimmer boys/ girls. If you needed anything more than a 32in inseam, you were plum outta luck unless you had a 30-32in waist. They had very few women's pants that were at least 33-34 inches long without being 3 sizes too big in every other part of the fit.
Thankfully women's clothes have evolved to every size and shape.

I loved that salmon colored jacket of Tyler's too.

[nutty1]

7 hours ago, riff-raff said:

The other dynamic was that I think  production was encouraging Luke's persistence.   If he was being told that Hannah had second thoughts, that she told them that "he was the one," etc., he returning seems less crazy.  In fact, if Luke really was some sort of psychopath -- and production had a lot more opportunities to truly know him -- to allow him continued  access to Hannah and engineer his "returns," verges on criminal conduct.  

No, I think production saw an emotional,"prideful" and unsophisticated person they could easily manipulate for their desired story line.    I also think the reason they sold that storyline so hard, and that it dominated the season as it did, was because Hannah simply didn't give them much else to work with.    

THIS 1000 times. Luke was wrong many times, but don't think the evil powers that be didn't have a hand in it. No way did he come back on his own. I would bet everything I have that he didn't even just show up and they let him in. That was all producer driven.

[JudyObscure]

9 hours ago, nutty1 said:

Luke was wrong many times, but don't think the evil powers that be didn't have a hand in it.

Yep. I saw an interview where Chris Harrison was talking about how excited the producers were when Hannah said, "We [bleeped] in a windmill and Jesus still loves me." Harrison said he thought it was the greatest line, ever, in all Reality TV. 

I have a feeling that once they had that line they then talked Luke into coming back so they could milk the whole incident for more of the same, (and they got the podium move!) Then, when the season was over they edited the entire thing to show Hannah as some sort of feminist icon and wrote that "you don't own me" promo with the same idea.  CH sounded like all the producers have just been creaming their skinny jeans over this season because they knew they had lots of anger and sex and the soap opera ratings that go with it.  Luke was just any easy puppet to manipulate.

[JustaGirliegirl]

Has anyone else noticed how many times Hannah uses the word 'like'.  That alone would have sent me screaming home if I was one of the men.  Used to be a fan of this show, but this season has been such a disappointment on so many levels.

[Crs97]

The producers may suggest/cajole all they want.  His choices are his own, just as Hannah’s are hers.

I used to fine my children a quarter every time they used the word “like.”  Hannah would owe me a fortune.

[ljenkins782]

On 7/25/2019 at 8:54 AM, Mabinogia said:

I wish Luke hadn't been on the show because I think Hannah was so all in with him that we didn't really get a season of Bachelorette as much as a season of toxic obsession gone bad. 

Considering that the first, what, 45 minutes of the MTA show was ALL Luke, I agree. He is the monster who ate the show. 

I honestly couldn't even get through the episode, I just barely got past the all Luke, all the time portion (I think I saw up to Big Mike in the hot seat). 

Quote

Hannah talked about her insecurity at the beginning, and I do think she hasn’t yet found her true strength

That was the most interesting part of the show to me. Hearing her articulate her worries that the guys would be "disappointed" that she was chosen, etc, was a glimpse into the other side of being the lead. All the shit that we say on here and that the world is saying (often right TO them on social media) can't be easy to take.

Quote

I know just what you mean.  I have been seeing this kind of aggressive behavior encouraged for a long time now.  That somehow being loud and obnoxious and putting others down is "how to be cool" and "speak your truth".  It's just a really regressive way of conducting oneself.  The fact that the whole audience was cheering, shows me they're fully on board with this mean-girl attitude and will, as you suggested, mimic this nastiness whenever they get triggered and feel entitled to a histrionic display of pseudo-empowerment.

This is exactly how I knew it was going to go (from a show staging perspective). I knew they'd set up this dynamic and then encourage the audience to be overdramatic in their fake responses. 

But the part that I couldn't stand was the completely nonsensical hill Hannah was choosing to die on, namely being angry that Luke would be upset if she slept with one of the other guys. 

First of all, if the person you're getting engaged to honestly doesn't care that you slept with 1 or more other guys mere days before the engagement, then that person probably isn't actually that invested in the relationship. I know it's part of the show to have multiple FS dates, but I think if the lead genuinely felt there was potential for a real relationship with one of them, they'd probably decline to do "fiance type things" with the others for fear of the repercussions. 

Also, I didn't really see the issue with Luke saying he'd step aside if it turned out she'd slept with someone else. He has the right to have his own dealbreakers and if that's one of them, so be it. Now, whether he'd actually have been able to walk away is another story, but I didn't have a problem with him stating where his personal lines were. Hannah acting like it was the crime of the century was ridiculous. Luke had done many, many actually objectionable things that she let slide, but this was the the thing that sent her over the edge? 

Quote

While I’m not a fan of full on capris for men.. I guess I’m in the minority that doesn’t mind Tyler’s style (Garrett too) which sometimes includes cropped pants and salmon jackets.. resort wear/Lilly Pulitzer styles. I like the preppy, golf pro, country club look... as long as the wearer isn’t an arrogant jerk off. Tyler doesn’t appear to be.. Garrett probably is. 

While I'm generally in the "dislike" category for this trend of skintight, capri-length pants for men, I will say that Tyler pulls the look off. The mixture of good looks, great body, and confidence makes him one of those guys who can probably wear anything. 

The ugliest version of this trend is athletic wear. I saw a guy on the tennis courts wearing skintight pants that hit about mid-calf and it was the silliest looking thing I've ever seen. 

[LBS]

 

I just realized that I have two business dinners for next Monday and Tuesday.  I really wanted to call and cancel but how would I explain that?  "Hi Clients.  Me, a 41 year old professional, needs to cancel our dinner meetings.  Something very important came up.  What? Oh, Hannah B. is going to pick her final doofus and Chris Harrison is hinting of the most dramatic AFTR ever."    Sigh....  the dinners better be good!

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Also, I didn't really see the issue with Luke saying he'd step aside if it turned out she'd slept with someone else. He has the right to have his own dealbreakers and if that's one of them, so be it. Now, whether he'd actually have been able to walk away is another story, but I didn't have a problem with him stating where his personal lines were. Hannah acting like it was the crime of the century was ridiculous.

I wonder what would have happened if Luke had brought up the topic during hometowns and had just stated, “With fantasy suites coming up, I need to tell you my boundaries.  I would be uncomfortable finding out you had sex with another man.”  She still may have gotten so upset, but I don’t know.  She didn’t like how he handled the bungee jumping date, but she also assured him there was nothing sexual about it.

Instead, the conversation was a train wreck from the get-go.  He tells her after she has already had some fantasy suite dates that it’s a dealbreaker for him, he makes a couple of derogatory comments about those other/fake Christians who have sex outside marriage, he assures her he knows she isn’t one of those, but now he needs verbal confirmation of that.  He doesn’t realize he has just insulted her because she is one of those, and there is now nothing either of them can do to turn back time.  I know he says he wasn’t judging her, but his comment about the other Christians was a judgment.  He just assumed she would join him in judging those others; he was wrong.

[Crs97]

41 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

More and more, I notice there are very few lax rules that women should follow and a seemingly endless list of impossible rules for men.

No means no for both men and women.

[Stats Queen]

39 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

No means no for both men and women.

Exactly, when you told a man No and to go away multiple times and he keeps coming back - that’s creepy and stalker behavior.

[HaaCHOO]

1 hour ago, ApolloSun said:

By no means of the imagination, is he a stalker or dangerous to anyone.

I'm not so sure.  He's so insecure and everything he does or says seems to be supported by his family.  I think the guy bears watching.  He also pisses off men so much he may be a danger to himself.

[Kiss my mutt]

I don’t have a problem with Luke drawing a line in the sand but he obviously didn’t mean it because when Hannah stepped over it he backpedaled and stayed. What good are values if they crumble that easily, Luke?

The song, “How Can I Miss you if you won’t Go Away” describes these numerous returns of Luke perfectly. 

[Stats Queen]

2 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

By no means of the imagination, is he a stalker or dangerous to anyone. LOL

First, I do agree with you on an earlier comment that men are bashed for everything these days and any accusation is taken as truth, no matter how random. This does a huge disservice to real victims.

On to the Luke discussion. How do you know he’s not a stalker? Do you know him Personally? Unless any of us know him personally, we can’t say that he is or isn’t, because if you looked at a checklist of behaviors of stalkers, Luke’s behavior on the show very closely resemble that checklist. The editing monkeys are always at work, but they showed enough of Luke’s unedited behavior to give me the creeps.

We all come to our opinions and conclusions based upon our knowledge and experiences. Much of Luke’s behavior is similar to that of known stalkers. Most noteworthy to me are his behaviors when it is just him and Hannah. He gas lights her, tells her she is wrong, and won’t leave when she tells him to leave. 

For me, the behavior we have seen him display is incredibly similar to the behavior of my now ex husband when we were dating. My ex was smarter and slicker than Luke and he knew how take my insecurities and weakness to turn the screws in hard and to mess with my mind even more. 

His behavior escalated on our honeymoon when he just wouldn’t stop in his verbal abuse. His emotional abuse escalated very quickly and a month later the sexual abuse started and then came the physical abuse.

When I got up the guts to leave, he jumped on the windshield of my car to try and stop me. When I moved out of the house I found a loaded gun between the mattresses.

After I left him, he phone stalked me at work and tried to figure out where I lived. I slept with a baseball bat on my bed until I moved to a different city in a different state a year later.

I got out of that alive in 1992 and have been happily remarried since 1995. The last time something happened that triggered old memories and brought them back to life was in 2000. After that last date between Luke and Hannah, I had nightmares of my ex husband - those nightmares had stopped in 1998.

Thus, I am hypersensitive to Luke’s behavior.

If I had a friend (male or female)dating someone who acted like Luke, I would be seriously concerned and I would be monitoring his/her treatment of my friend.

[operakatz]

On 7/24/2019 at 2:14 AM, JudyObscure said:

I thought the man (I forget which one) had it right when he said Luke was like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, but still claiming he didn't take one.  That's Luke's immaturity and I think he'll get over it in time -- maybe just by watching the show back.  It's not gaslighting.  Gaslighting would be the guy who took the cookie when no one was looking and then told his mom she must be losing it because she hadn't made any cookies.  A gaslighter tries to convince the other person that they're losing their mind.  Luke isn't that smooth.

He ticks several boxes, however. Blatant lies. Denial of having said something. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

And, no, I do not confuse general lying with gaslighting. I have been in situations where it was a very serious and dangerous problem. I became very familiar with it when a close friend of mine ended up in an emotionally-abusive relation that pretty much destroyed her life for several years. I don't dismiss Luke as just being immature. He raised my hackles all season, especially with some of his outbursts, fist clenching, body slamming, and controlling language.

[HaaCHOO]

13 hours ago, Stats Queen said:

Much of Luke’s behavior is similar to that of known stalkers. Most noteworthy to me are his behaviors when it is just him and Hannah. He gas lights her, tells her she is wrong, and won’t leave when she tells him to leave. 

I strongly agree with this.  Consider his antics with Hannah if the two of them were alone...no production staff, no friends or family.  What if she were living alone in a new town and she met this cute and great religious guy?  She is in trouble if she disagrees with anything he thinks, wants or needs.  He spells danger because he's NOT OKAY. 

Signed, An unlicensed know-it-all.

[Mabinogia]

46 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

Oh, what I wouldn't give to have a recording of the producers manipulating him into crashing that rose ceremony!  LOL  I think it might change a few minds here.  

I think most of us know he was manipulated. But most of us also know this great word called "no". Luke could just as easily told them Hannah made her choice and out of love for her he would respect that. Trouble is, he doesn't understand that no is an actual option and he also doesn't love Hannah he loves the person he imagined Hannah was when he saw her on TV. 

Manipulation also goes both ways. Hannah could just as easily get the benefit of us saying Production was whispering in her ear to "Show her power" and tell tell Luke she boned a guy and to give Luke just one more try because he's trying so very hard. 

I am 100% certain there was nothing in Luke's contract saying he had to keep coming back even after being told to leave by Hannah. That was his choice, that he is easily led into doing the things he already wants to do is still on him. Just like Hannah's actions are on her, and Tyler's on him and Jed's on him and ours on us. 

He chose to go on a TV show that is known to manipulate the people who go on it, he chose to sign away his right to choose how they portrayed him and he has to live with that just like they all do. I know he's dumb as a rock but he signed up for this and should have given some thought to what he was doing. 

That goes for all of them. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Mabinogia

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

The reason I remember this so clearly, is that it BLEW ME AWAY that they were never called out for this bullying and nastiness.  Britt did nothing to deserve how she was treated.  Then, she gets further humiliated by being pinned up against Kaitlyn, to see who would get picked to be in that season of the bachelorette. I wish she had not signed up for that.   Just such cruelty, that no one seemed to care about, at all.  

At least Britt ended up getting the last laugh. She got out of the "Nation" found herself a good guy and got a happily ever after, at least last I heard. They don't overly follow these idiots once their season ends. I do hate that they put her and Kaityln head to head given their history. But that is exactly why people who go on this show should expect the absolute worst. 

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

No, I just don't think so -- it comes way too naturally for her.

And see, being a controlling narcissist seems to me to come so naturally to Luke that he doesn't even know it's happening. It is just who he is. 

We all pick and choose who we think Production benefits and harms. Unless any of us were on the show at this season, we really don't know what Production said to any of them. For all we know Luke went to them and said "She is my wife, I am ready to fight for her!" and they wet themselves as they realized the drama gold that just fell in their laps. 

[HaaCHOO]

21 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

15 hours ago, HaaCHOO said:

He also pisses off men so much he may be a danger to himself.

Every single woman on the Bachelor, who gets the most attention, is ganged up on and maligned by the group of women.  Then, the person being scrutinized and ridiculed, gets more and more defensive as the show goes on.  How is this any different?   

My sentence  you quoted wasn't  in reference to the television show.  It is the impression I got from Luke P. and how he (most likely) deports himself in life--in general.  If he is perceived as a liar, a jerk, over-aggressive, and more... things will not be good for him.  He will encounter all sorts of people (men, mostly) who won't put up with his crap.  He has a personality disorder that needs therapy.

[Nowhere]

I think people throw around the word “narcissist” way too much.

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

In our society, men are told to pursue, to overcome, to win the girl. 

As a society we are sending men mixed messages. Hannah does this, because she is a product of this society where men are taught they need to "prove" their love and women are taught they are supposed to act like a prize to be won. This show is just a microcosm of how screwed up our dating "rules" truly are. 

[Nowhere]

1 minute ago, ApolloSun said:

I actually think we have a much higher percentage of people with narcissist traits than previous generations, with countless people influenced and encouraged daily, very often by social media, to be self-focused and this gives them a sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy, actually producing more claims of victim-hood, usually false, for themselves, while the valid plights of others, are quickly dismissed.

Narcissistic traits w/ social media influence, yes. But if we’re going to say someone has an actual real personality disorder, it’s probably better to know what the actual symptoms are and have a real discussion. Luke seems less like a narcissist than Jed, in my non-professional opinion. I’d get behind some symptoms of schizophrenia because of shower Jesus before I could agree with NPD symptoms in Luke. 

[Kiss my mutt]

Maybe Luke can see if UpTV wants to do a Christian version of the Bachelor though honestly I wouldn’t wish him on anybody. I’m sure he’ll enjoy his notoriety in Gainesville where he’s the big fish in a small pond. I don’t think he’s ready for marriage any more than any of these people though.  

[Stats Queen]

3 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

yes and it's pretty awful for the men too.

Yes, you are very correct. I consider them victims if they’re wrongfully accused. It could easily happen to any man, which is very troubling to me.

[PhysNerd]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:53 PM, Just Carol said:

Yes, and I am concerned that this will become part of the "strong woman" lore.  Hannah has a temper and a mean streak.  Some people will point to her hissy fits and call it evidence of her being "strong."

Not me.  I think she is only a tinge better than Luke.  This girl reeks of insecurity, cruelty and control issues.  She definitely has the potential to be an emotional abuser.  I don't know who she will choose in the end, but if that man has any intelligence, then he will run from her.  She is not a catch.  The only thing she has going for her is that she's young, but obviously that is not a permanent characteristic. 

[Just Carol]

A song for Luke.

[Nowhere]

6 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

Maybe Luke can see if UpTV wants to do a Christian version of the Bachelor though honestly I wouldn’t wish him on anybody. I’m sure he’ll enjoy his notoriety in Gainesville where he’s the big fish in a small pond. I don’t think he’s ready for marriage any more than any of these people though.  

And now he’ll play martyr because all the guys and Hannah attacked him for his beliefs and for standing up for the word of god. At least that’s how they’ll spin it. 🙄🙄🙄 

[Nowhere]

6 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

Not me.  I think she is only a tinge better than Luke.  This girl reeks of insecurity, cruelty and control issues.  She definitely has the potential to be an emotional abuser.  I don't know who she will choose in the end, but if that man has any intelligence, then he will run from her.  She is not a catch.  The only thing she has going for her is that she's young, but obviously that is not a permanent characteristic. 

At least Luke wasn’t purposely cruel. He made some mistakes but he always tried to make it right and I don’t think anything came from a bad place. He was just kind of dumb and out of his little Christian bubble. Obviously he didn’t know the guys would be so butt hurt about things like the rugby incident. It’s a tough sport and he took it a tad overboard, but jeez, the whining from the other guy started to irritate me. 

[MsTree]

Wasn't going to watch this season until I heard all the drama on Men Tell All. So now I'm in the dark...who did Hannah have sex with in/at the windmill?

[chocolatine]

14 minutes ago, MsTree said:

Wasn't going to watch this season until I heard all the drama on Men Tell All. So now I'm in the dark...who did Hannah have sex with in/at the windmill?

Her fantasy suite with Peter was in a windmill, but there's a chance she was referring to a different windmill rendezvous, either on the show (they visited The Netherlands, which has many windmills) or before the show. Peter said in the morning after that they "came together so much last night", but Hannah didn't look like a woman who had enjoyed good sex the night before.

[Just Carol]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Her fantasy suite with Peter was in a windmill, but there's a chance she was referring to a different windmill rendezvous, either on the show (they visited The Netherlands, which has many windmills) or before the show. Peter said in the morning after that they "came together so much last night", but Hannah didn't look like a woman who had enjoyed good sex the night before.

She said, "And we did it a second time" in the TH, and she looked very pleased about it.

[nutty1]

I can't wait for the 2 night finale, in hopes we can talk about something other than Luke!

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Just Carol said:

She said, "And we did it a second time" in the TH, and she looked very pleased about it.

But again, we don't know 100% if she was referring to her fantasy suite with Peter, or a different occasion with a different man.