S08.E05: The Bells

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

 IMO, the crowning was maybe slightly more gruesome than a clean beheading (not a Theon one) or a hanging, but is in the same ballpark with throat cutting and not nearly as bad as hounds.   

It took Viserys less fewer (RIP Stannis) than 7 seconds to die from the time Drogo began pouring the gold.  

LF suffered for 16 seconds before hit flopped to the floor.  I'm not sure if he was dead at that point or suffered longer.

Olly and his fellow traitors kicked for about 11 or 12 seconds before dying.  

Ramsay is heard screaming for at least 30 seconds.  

I don't think the length of time to die is dispositive.  A bullet to the stomach will take an hour before you die.  Not as gruesome as a crowning.

So, to me, even if others took longer to die, death by crowning is more gruesome.

LOL @ theons beheading

[CeeBeeGee]

7 hours ago, Drogo said:

As are her braids, and her hair which has never been cut as she's never been defeated.  Daenerys has never let go of her Dothraki days.

I've long held the theory that Drogon was born of Drogo's life (death pays for life, Mirri was chanting as she was burned and dragons were born and delivered Rhaego covered in scales..)  and that he heard her plea from his catatonic state and simply did what he said he'd done in the House of the Undying:

        

Daenerys:  "That sounds like something you would do."

Drogon only abandoned her once... when she was fixin' to throw her dragons into captivity (how was he supposed to help her locked in a dungeon?!)... but he went to chill in her hometown and came back for her when she was really losing control: after the former slaves' riot against her, and again when the Sons of the Harpy attacked in the fighting pits.

And what'd he do when she could finally get on his back?  Dropped her off a stone's throw from a Dothraki horde so she could be taken to Vaes Dothrak... where he had every confidence she'd win herself an army.  Once she had them, he returned to her again.  In a way, he kept his promise of an army to take the IT. 

Regardless of what happens with Daenerys, Drogon will be with her. 

(I get it, my dude.  When you find a really good one...)

 

**Oh, don't look at me like that.  If we can believe in dragons, we can believe in Twu Wuv.**

I absolutely love this theory. Dany's chemistry with Khal Drogo was off-the-charts hot. I love watching their scenes on YouTube together and I loved it when she got a chance to see him again in the House of the Undying. And I adore the dragons too--every time Drogon perches somewhere and roars I just want to pet him on the head. All the battle scenes where Drogon kicks ass and takes names I love. (To clarify, in this episode, when he smashes the Iron Fleet and the scorpions on the parapets. Not when he massacres the civilians.)

This theory makes me cry, it is so perfect and beautiful. I'm not kidding. Thank you.

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Drogo said:

I hope they paid for the extra rental insurance...

Progressive Flo: I recommend the comprehensive all perils package. Protecting you from fire, flood, death and dismemberment....

[paigow]

9 hours ago, RealReality said:

Arya killed the Frey's mostly with poison.  This, to me, is not the same as burning innocent women and children alive.

She butchered, cooked and served the dead bodies....not the end of the spectrum, but pretty close to it....

[queenanne]

12 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She said she would crucify all the masters and kill all there soldiers.  She did not mention slaughtering innocent civilians.   

Also, it wasn't that the rulers of Astaopor and Yunkaii "opposed her", they were attacking and burning her city.  They attacked her city and she was going to fight back, hard.   

Yes, but still and all... there is "the moment".  It's like the baby-step moment to killing innocent civilians.  It's the "what will Dany do when there isn't a Hand there to advise her, saying 'no, my Queen, hideous idea!  Horrible idea!  Worst idea yet!"

Plus, most of the other exemplars unalloyedly needed killing, IMO.  Ramsey was an irredeemable psycho sadist.  Littlefinger was skeezy from jump and the only thing that ever saved any Stark or individuals Stark-associated, was his obsession with Catelyn; I don't count that as anything less than self-interest.  Even Varys I thought was a sleaze until he discovered the truth about Jon's parentage; and I thought for certain he was going to cover that up by any means possible, so after I realized how much I had grown to like him I was okay with him being killed.  Dany killed thousands of people who were pleading for their lives and never wanted to fight in the first place; and another thousands of soldiers who surrendered and were also de facto begging for their lives.  Jon tried valiantly to hold back the tide and couldn't, which I feel will probably have something to do in future with increasing the ease which he will break with Dany (no spoilers just logic), because whatever else we can say we were meant to learn from the death of Jaime and Cersei, it was clearly, in the end, an "Incest is bad and not something we should glorify; mmmkay?" moment.

[PatsyandEddie]

For me anyway, it’s simpler. An execution for a crime is one thing but a massacre of innocents for no reason is very different. 

[TigerLynx]

I wonder if they kill Dany if that will lead to Drogon burning down all of Westeros.  Then a thousand years in the future an Ape will tell Charlton Heston, "The vast wasteland was once a paradise, but men destroyed it, well them and a dragon."

[J. Maven Palmer]

Snow, Reveals his highest premonition... 

[kelslamu]

Help me out here please.  Does anyone remember Arya saying she wondered what was at the edge of the world?  She asked someone and they said no one had ventured that far in that direction.  I have no clue which season or anything.  Maybe I dreamt it?  I keep thinking we will see her riding off to find new horizons.  Crazy?

[kelslamu]

Ok, finally found a reference to it.

Arya: Essos is east and Westeros is west. But what's west of Westeros?

Lady Crane: I don't know.

Arya: Nobody does. It's where all the maps stop.

Lady Crane: The edge of the world, maybe.

Arya: I'd like to see that.

The consensus seems to be that she said this before she ran into Hotpie and went back to Winterfell.  I don't know, it was just a thought. lol

Edited May 18, 2019 by kelslamu
I called hotpie potpie. lmao I've called him hotpocket, but never potpie.

[Constantinople]

20 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Jon as lord commander executed a man of the night's watch who was a mutineer.. Not to mention Olly murdered him..

Jon killed Olly, Ser Alliser Thorne and the others after Jon was killed and resurrected.

If Jon's death terminated his membership in the Night's Watch, then Jon had no legal autority to kill Olly and the others. It was a simply a revenge murder.

If Jon's death didn't terminate his membership in the Night's Watch, then he's a deserter.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

If Jon's death didn't terminate his membership in the Night's Watch, then he's a deserter.

Then I guess he's a deserter then... I'm sure of any other men of the night's watch wanna take it up with him.. They know where he is... 

[ursula]

On 5/17/2019 at 4:11 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Olly and his fellow traitors kicked for about 11 or 12 seconds before dying.  

Killing by hanging was also a very un-Stark-like thing to do. Jon should have swung that sword 12 times. 

On 5/17/2019 at 4:23 PM, UNOSEZ said:

Jon as lord commander executed a man of the night's watch who was a mutineer.

5 seconds after their execution, Jon exploits the loophole of his death to quit the order. By his own admission, he was no longer a member of the Night's Watch when he resurrected and he was not the Lord Commander carried out those sentences. Those weren't executions, those were vengeance-motivated murders. 

And because its Jon, the biggest Mary Sue who's ever sued on this show, there is zero consequence to this. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by ursula

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Killing by hanging was also a very un-Stark-like thing to do. Jon should have swung that sword 12 times. 

5 seconds after their execution, Jon exploits the loophole of his death to quit the order. By his own admission, he was no longer a member of the Night's Watch when he resurrected and he was not the Lord Commander carried out those sentences. Those weren't executions, those were vengeance-motivated murders. 

And because its Jon, the biggest Mary Sue who's ever sued on this show, there is zero consequence to this. 

I'll have to rewatch the episode when he came back from the dead.. I don't remember him saying he wasn't lord commander anymore... And if he said it.. No one else had been named so he still was..so he carried out the sentence that was befitting mutineers... Then quit... Maybe a grey area depending on the by-laws I dunno... Tho if its str8 up revenge im fine with that as well

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

And because its Jon, the biggest Mary Sue who's ever sued on this show, there is zero consequence to this. 

If anyone is a Mary Sue in this show it appears to be Dany, beautiful and a winner and righteous and she has dragons. May be why everyone is taking this episode so hard. Arya might also have a claim to the title. 

Who wants to be Jon. Really?

[Love]

20 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'll have to rewatch the episode when he came back from the dead.. I don't remember him saying he wasn't lord commander anymore... And if he said it.. No one else had been named so he still was..so he carried out the sentence that was befitting mutineers... Then quit... Maybe a grey area depending on the by-laws I dunno... Tho if its str8 up revenge im fine with that as well

Jon didn’t officially renounce his commander ship of the NW until after the hangings.  It was then that he gave the cloak to Edd.

[steelyis]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Jon killed Olly, Ser Alliser Thorne and the others after Jon was killed and resurrected.

If Jon's death terminated his membership in the Night's Watch, then Jon had no legal autority to kill Olly and the others. It was a simply a revenge murder.

If Jon's death didn't terminate his membership in the Night's Watch, then he's a deserter.

IMO, Jon's expression before he hanged(?) Olly and the others didn't look like the expression someone about to get revenge would have; he mostly looked resigned and very, very tired.

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Killing by hanging was also a very un-Stark-like thing to do. Jon should have swung that sword 12 times. 

5 seconds after their execution, Jon exploits the loophole of his death to quit the order. By his own admission, he was no longer a member of the Night's Watch when he resurrected and he was not the Lord Commander carried out those sentences. Those weren't executions, those were vengeance-motivated murders. 

And because its Jon, the biggest Mary Sue who's ever sued on this show, there is zero consequence to this. 

13 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'll have to rewatch the episode when he came back from the dead.. I don't remember him saying he wasn't lord commander anymore... And if he said it.. No one else had been named so he still was..so he carried out the sentence that was befitting mutineers... Then quit... Maybe a grey area depending on the by-laws I dunno... Tho if its str8 up revenge im fine with that as well

I don't know if Jon intended to quit the Night's Watch before the executions, but by law it was his duty to execute them. Like Ned was duty bound to behead the deserter from the first episode. And Jon wouldn't walk away and let someone else do it in his place, so...

Personally, I think killing Olly, and not his own murder, was the reason Jon couldn't stomach being on the Wall anymore.

[MrsR]

19 minutes ago, RealReality said:

What does it mean to be a Mary Sue?  I've never heard the term.

Here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

[lucindabelle]

Considering dany was raped and had two of her children, her best friend and trusted advisor die, I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue. 

[RealReality]

49 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Interesting, thank you.

[UNOSEZ]

12 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Interesting, thank you.

Based on the wiki post.. I don't think Jon or Dany.. For that matter arya or bran could be called a Mary or Marty sue... 

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Based on the wiki post.. I don't think Jon or Dany.. For that matter arya or bran could be called a Mary or Marty sue... 

Bran is magic, so not a Mary Sue.

Arya suffered and worked her butt off for everything she has, including her own life, so no.  She wasn't an instant prodigy with a sword, let alone multiple other skills, she took many lessons, and worked worked worked for years to be good, including pretty devastating training with the Faceless Men. 

GRRM really doesn't write Mary Sue characters.

[CletusMusashi]

22 hours ago, paigow said:

She butchered, cooked and served the dead bodies....not the end of the spectrum, but pretty close to it....

Yes, but she still didn't get the crust right.

Wait 'til Hot Pie becomes an assassin...

[paigow]

17 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I wonder if they kill Dany if that will lead to Drogon burning down all of Westeros.  Then a thousand years in the future an Ape will tell Charlton Heston, "The vast wasteland was once a paradise, but men destroyed it, well them and a dragon."

Dr. Zaius: Taylor, would a talking orangutan lie to you about the existence of dragons????

[millennium]

I keep thinking, if only Jon and the others had access to someone who could see the past and future by visions and time travel, who could have warned them of the coming catastrophe.

"Jon kinda forgot about Bran being the Three-Eyed Raven ..."

[dreamcatcher]

12 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Then I guess he's a deserter then... I'm sure of any other men of the night's watch wanna take it up with him.. They know where he is... 

I’m sure Sam the other deserter who has created a family for himself will certainly get on Jon’s case. 

10 hours ago, ursula said:

Killing by hanging was also a very un-Stark-like thing to do. Jon should have swung that sword 12 times. 

5 seconds after their execution, Jon exploits the loophole of his death to quit the order. By his own admission, he was no longer a member of the Night's Watch when he resurrected and he was not the Lord Commander carried out those sentences. Those weren't executions, those were vengeance-motivated murders. 

And because its Jon, the biggest Mary Sue who's ever sued on this show, there is zero consequence to this. 

Even if Jon had left the NW immediately after being ressurected, don’t you think that the new LC would sentence them for killing the previous LC? Pretty sure this is as bad as ‘deserting’ the NW. Also, considering that Edd and Jon were the only NW men who actually fought the dead, I kinda feel like he did his duty.

[paigow]

12 hours ago, ursula said:

Killing by hanging was also a very un-Stark-like thing to do. Jon should have swung that sword 12 times. 

Maybe desertion & cowardice / insubordination have different Night Watch penalties than mutiny. Does anyone have a copy of the by-laws? Maybe filed at the Citadel next to bowel movement journals????

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, dreamcatcher said:

I’m sure Sam the other deserter who has created a family for himself will certainly get on Jon’s case. 

Even if Jon had left the NW immediately after being ressurected, don’t you think that the new LC would sentence them for killing the previous LC? Pretty sure this is as bad as ‘deserting’ the NW. Also, considering that Edd and Jon were the only NW men who actually fought the dead, I kinda feel like he did his duty.

Total agreement... Tho I think the poster that you were replying to was trying to show that Jon did stuff to but hasn't been treated by fandom the way Dany has these last few weeks because of diff reasons I guess

[UNOSEZ]

Well.. Today's the day... One way or another we'll know how it ends and we will have many opinions... I cannot wait

[dreamcatcher]

59 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Total agreement... Tho I think the poster that you were replying to was trying to show that Jon did stuff to but hasn't been treated by fandom the way Dany has these last few weeks because of diff reasons I guess

Yeah I know! And I definitely wasn’t shading @UNOSEZ! I just find it funny that we take offense with things that clearly don’t matter or aren’t viewed as “bad” within this universe and I piggy-bagged on her comment!

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'll have to rewatch the episode when he came back from the dead.. I don't remember him saying he wasn't lord commander anymore... And if he said it.. No one else had been named so he still was..so he carried out the sentence that was befitting mutineers... Then quit... Maybe a grey area depending on the by-laws I dunno... Tho if its str8 up revenge im fine with that as well

Jon resigned as Lord Commander right after the executions, which was his right as the NW oath reads "Night gathers and now my watch begins.  It shall not end until my death..."

Upon his death, he was no longer bound by his oath.

The executions were clearly just and not "revenge".  Mutiny and assassination of the Lord Commander is a clear death penalty offense.  Every Lord Commander would pass the same sentence.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Yes, but she still didn't get the crust right.

Wait 'til Hot Pie becomes an assassin...

Yep, she confessed that she didn't brown the butter, and while she didn't mention it, I am pretty sure she gave up on the gravy.

[Lady S.]

15 hours ago, ursula said:

Killing by hanging was also a very un-Stark-like thing to do. Jon should have swung that sword 12 times. 

Tell that to Robb Stark, who didn't even do the hanging himself.

Quote

King Robb: Escort Lord Karstark to the dungeon. Hang the rest.
'Watcher": Mercy, sire! I didn't kill anyone. I only watched for the guards.
King Robb: This one was only the watcher. Hang him last so he can watch the others die.

Rickard Karstark only got a beheading because he was a high lord as well as a murderer, but I don't think the swing the sword rule is nearly as hard and fast as fandom makes it out to be. (We also have Ned regretting the inconvenience of travel with a broken leg and sending Beric to execute the Mountain in his place.) 

On 5/17/2019 at 10:46 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

I absolutely love this theory. Dany's chemistry with Khal Drogo was off-the-charts hot. I love watching their scenes on YouTube together and I loved it when she got a chance to see him again in the House of the Undying. And I adore the dragons too--every time Drogon perches somewhere and roars I just want to pet him on the head. All the battle scenes where Drogon kicks ass and takes names I love. (To clarify, in this episode, when he smashes the Iron Fleet and the scorpions on the parapets. Not when he massacres the civilians.)

This theory makes me cry, it is so perfect and beautiful. I'm not kidding. Thank you.

Would it comfort y'all to think that even if Dany dies after destroying the city, she'd be reunited with Drogo and Rhaego per the vision in 2.10? 

Updated.
 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Lady S.

[ursula]

4 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

Even if Jon had left the NW immediately after being ressurected, don’t you think that the new LC would sentence them for killing the previous LC? 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Upon his death, he was no longer bound by his oath.

If he could claim he stopped being a Night's Watch because he died... Therefore, he wasn't Lord Commander after he died either.

Whether they deserved to die or not was no longer up to him, and should have been left to the succeeding Lord Commander to decide.

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Maybe desertion & cowardice / insubordination have different Night Watch penalties than mutiny. Does anyone have a copy of the by-laws? 

Irrelevant.

But interesting in that it pretty much proves my point about the level of scrutiny Jon's grayer actions get, or rather don't get in-story and out-story.

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Considering dany was raped and had two of her children, her best friend and trusted advisor die, I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue. 

Here's a popular thought experiment: would a female character who is: a billionaire, a master at martial skills, genius level intelligent, devastatingly gorgeous, and a badass normal that leads a team of superhuman heroes that she regularly trumps... be a Mary Sue? 

Or this girl, who thinks she's a bastard but is really the secret (legitimate) product of two magical bloodlines, with all their advantages and none of their downsides. She literally tripped and fell over a magical direwolf (the only one still left with its owner), is crowned Queen over her legitimate sibling despite technically losing the Battle, got a dragon as a Valentine's Day present from a powerful King, is called beautiful by everyone she meets - even people that don't like her - and is so righteous that the universe bends to accommodate her grayer actions. 

Is she a Mary Sue? Only if her name is Jane Snow.

Oh and the first woman, the genius-level badass normal drop dead gorgeous female billionaire? That's Batman sans dick.

Edited May 19, 2019 by ursula

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

but I don't think the swing the sword rule is nearly as hard and fast as fandom makes it out to be.

I mean... 🤷

The "swing the sword herself" is an argument that is often used to censor non-Starks in general, and Dany in particular. It's only when the point is turned against Starks that these (very valid) points are brought up. 

[Lady S.]

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

I mean... 🤷

The "swing the sword herself" is an argument that is often used to censor non-Starks in general, and Dany in particular. It's only when the point is turned against Starks that these (very valid) points are brought up. 

I'm pretty sure I've defended Dany on this point before when it came up with Mossador, but even if not, treating the beheading = morality test idea as a valid attack doesn't really help that argument against Dany or anyone else. All I said was that hanging as unStarklike is factually untrue, and I think that whole sequence in 3.05 is meant to portray Robb at his most Ned-like.

[Clanstarling]

24 minutes ago, ursula said:

I mean... 🤷

The "swing the sword herself" is an argument that is often used to censor non-Starks in general, and Dany in particular. It's only when the point is turned against Starks that these (very valid) points are brought up. 

I personally have always associated the "swing the sword yourself" moral to be emblematic of Ned's rigid sense of morality. Which got Ned his own head cut off - by an executioner. It's not a particularly reasonable execution method in times of war, despite being an honorable choice. And as we've seen, no one else in Westeros practiced it.

I'm not particularly put off by Dany using her dragon to execute Varys, who betrayed her, or the conquered lords who refuse to bend the knee (ie surrender). Just as I'm not put off by Arya killing the Frey family members who murdered her family, or Sansa's poetic justice killing of Ramsey. It is, after all, a brutal world that's being shown in this series - where people are executed without any sort of a trial most of the time.

I do object, however, to killing masses of innocents after the bells of surrender. I do find that inexcusable - whoever does it, in fiction or reality, on my "side" or the "opposition." And I don't want anyone who does that to rule, but what I want and what will happen won't necessarily be the same thing. And I'm not put off by that either. I want the creative minds to tell the story they want to tell, and if I don't like the ending, well, I enjoyed the ride.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Clanstarling

[RealReality]

I understand why people draw comparisons between the actions taken by different characters to try to illustrate a bias.

For me, when Ned Stark said that and gave the reasoning (and I can't remember if this was painted as a general rule amongst rulers or as a stark thing or as a thing in the north) it resonated with me and it made sense.

If you're going to pass sentence to take a man's life you will be more contemplative of that decision if you're the one swinging the sword.  And you should contemplate and think before you sentence someone to death , it shouldn't be done lightly.  And knowing that you are going to swing the sword is, in some ways, respectful to the person you're about to execute if they know that you did not make the decision lightly.

So, for me, I didn't particularly go through an exercise of comparing and contrasting.  I see that Dany hasn't really been contemplative when executing people this season.  I think she asked the tarlys a few questions and she maybe asked varys one.  

Putting aside whether or not you feel the tarlys and/or varys deserved to be executed it wasn't done after any real thought or consideration, in my opinion.

And for some people, the ability to make these decisions quickly is a sign of resolute leadership.  For me, it's not.

And whether someone else also executed someone in haste doesn't really change that for me.

I mean, I look at tyrion, and I can tell he is scared she is going to kill him.  For what?  Giving shitty advice? That's an amazing reason to fire an advisor....not such a great reason to "FIRE" an advisor.  Giving piss poor advice is a good reason to lose your job, but not your life.  And I've seen nothing to suggest that he has purposefully worked against her interest, except for freeing Jamie, and even then it was in the hopes of allowing Dany to peacefully take Kings Landing.  

Edited May 19, 2019 by RealReality

[milizard]

26 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I mean, I look at tyrion, and I can tell he is scared she is going to kill him.  For what?  Giving shitty advice? That's an amazing reason to fire an advisor....not such a great reason to "FIRE" an advisor.  Giving piss poor advice is a good reason to lose your job, but not your life.  And I've seen nothing to suggest that he has purposefully worked against her interest, except for freeing Jamie, and even then it was in the hopes of allowing Dany to peacefully take Kings Landing.  

26 minutes ago, RealReality said:

You know what, though?  In retrospect, the horrible misleading advice coupled with freeing Jaime looks really bad for him.  We kind of know he was trying to do good, but I kind of wonder myself after the Jaime incident.

[dreamcatcher]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

If he could claim he stopped being a Night's Watch because he died... Therefore, he wasn't Lord Commander after he died either.

Whether they deserved to die or not was no longer up to him, and should have been left to the succeeding Lord Commander to decide.

Irrelevant.

But interesting in that it pretty much proves my point about the level of scrutiny Jon's grayer actions get, or rather don't get in-story and out-story.

Here's a popular thought experiment: would a female character who is: a billionaire, a master at martial skills, genius level intelligent, devastatingly gorgeous, and a badass normal that leads a team of superhuman heroes that she regularly trumps... be a Mary Sue? 

Or this girl, who thinks she's a bastard but is really the secret (legitimate) product of two magical bloodlines, with all their advantages and none of their downsides. She literally tripped and fell over a magical direwolf (the only one still left with its owner), is crowned Queen over her legitimate sibling despite technically losing the Battle, got a dragon as a Valentine's Day present from a powerful King, is called beautiful by everyone she meets - even people that don't like her - and is so righteous that the universe bends to accommodate her grayer actions. 

Is she a Mary Sue? Only if her name is Jane Snow.

Oh and the first woman, the genius-level badass normal drop dead gorgeous female billionaire? That's Batman sans dick.

I get your point and I agree that female characters are unfairly judged for minor things and things that male characters get praise for. I just think this argument with Jon not being lord commander is silly. He got ressurected with no new LC in place. He was alive and the LC still when he passed the judgement that a new LC would also pass anyway. Then he left and named Edd his successor and no one questioned that in the show because it’s not an actual problem. If it was, none of the northern lords would have accepted him.

And in the same vain, we could argue that Dany wasn’t the actual Queen when she sentenced the Tarlys or Varys to death, so this was murder. I also don’t agree with this statement, but it’s the same with Jon not being the LC means he’s a murderer.

1 hour ago, ursula said:

I mean... 🤷

The "swing the sword herself" is an argument that is often used to censor non-Starks in general, and Dany in particular. It's only when the point is turned against Starks that these (very valid) points are brought up. 

I also don’t agree with people taking Ned’s quote to heart. First of all, this is a northern statement and it’s not just Dany who ignores it. If anything, Dany uses her weapon to execute people, just like Ned used his sword. Not sure how inexperienced Dany actually using a sword and butchering the beheading would be kinder to the person who has to die miserably.

[Lady S.]

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I personally have always associated the "swing the sword yourself" moral to be emblematic of Ned's rigid sense of morality. Which got Ned his own head cut off - by an executioner.

I wouldn't say the morality that had Ned warning Cersei to save her children and then falsely name Joffrey king to protect Sansa is the same morality that had him chopping off deserters' heads no exception because it was his lawful duty. Honor and morality are not always the same thing and Ned's mercy toward innocents was not really honorable or dutiful by the standards of their society. IMO the most likely narrative purpose for the swing the sword rule was to symbolize personal responsibility as contrast between Ned and Robert, best exemplified with Lady's death where Robert just flat out runs away, leaving it to Cersei, when Ned challenges him to take responsibility, and then Ned volunteers to do the killing himself because he feels it's the least Robert could have done. (And he didn't kill Lady with a sword either because it's not that literal!)

One of the reasons I don't think beheading works as a morality test is that there's no reason a bad person couldn't live up to it, especially if they liked killing. If we assume "the old way", the way of the First Men, is practiced throughout the north, not just by noble Ned, there's no reason the Boltons or Rickard Karstark or Smalljon Umber couldn't have kept to the practice and done all their own executions. Maybe it works as a test of cowardice or weakness, but not morality. If we take Lady being killed with a dagger further couldn't Ramsay doing his own flaying and Jon trying to beat Ramsay to death with his own fists also qualify? There's nothing said about guaranteeing a clean death, and I'd say Theon is certainly not disqualified for failing that while following Ned's literal words.
 

13 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think she asked the tarlys a few questions 

That's still more than Ned asked the shell-shocked deserter, who he quickly dismissed as a madman to Bran and Benjen while still sticking to the law is the law. Which I've defended him for multiple times because no other lord would have believed or spared that guy, but the point is Ned's idea of contemplation is to be uncomfortable and feel sad afterwards, not to actually question the law of the land for death penalty offenses (unless innocent children will be collateral damage). And I doubt anyone would appreciate a messy Theon-style beheading as a sign of respect. 

I don't really want to derail the thread with arguments about "dignified" executions, though, so I'll shut up now that I've said my piece. 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, milizard said:

You know what, though?  In retrospect, the horrible misleading advice coupled with freeing Jaime looks really bad for him.  We kind of know he was trying to do good, but I kind of wonder myself after the Jaime incident.

He was also trying to help Cersei escape, so it is as bad as it looks.  Sansa was right to be wary of his divided loyalties.  I always remember he said he would never bet against his family.

[MrsR]

The hanging was done because it was a visual short cut that allowed Jon to look the traitors in the eye, get their last words and then see them suffer collectively. It was a wise writer's decision.

Besides, Jon would have thrown his back out with that many beheadings. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, RealReality said:

So, for me, I didn't particularly go through an exercise of comparing and contrasting.  I see that Dany hasn't really been contemplative when executing people this season.  I think she asked the tarlys a few questions and she maybe asked varys one.  

As @Lady S. pointed out, the number of questions Ned asked the Night's Watch deserter was equal to the amount of gold extracted from the Lannister mines in the last several years.

Ned didn't even talk to the man and barely acknowledged him. It came across to me as anything but contemplative.

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Rickard Karstark only got a beheading because he was a high lord as well as a murderer, but I don't think the swing the sword rule is nearly as hard and fast as fandom makes it out to be.

Which makes sense since the method of execution was typically different for nobles and commoners in medieval Europe.

Still, Ned did behead the Night's Watch deserter.  I doubt he was a high lord.  I suppose we can chalk it up to Ned's respect for the Night's Watch, but I suspect the true purpose was to give Ned a chance to talk to Bran about "the old way", to show off Ice, etc

Edited May 19, 2019 by Constantinople
Changed "Bron" to "Bran". I'm fairly certain Bron doesn't care about the old way

[PatsyandEddie]

Wasn’t hanging the penalty for mutiny? 🤔

IMO, Ned swinging the sword himself was his own rule so that an execution was more of a well thought out event. IIRC, it was the North’s responsibility to execute any deserter from The Wall. 

[Constantinople]

If Tyrion's plan worked and Cersei and Jaime escaped to Pentos, how could this be verified beyond Tyrion's say so? And why would Daenerys trust his say so at that point?

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Oh and the first woman, the genius-level badass normal drop dead gorgeous female billionaire? That's Batman sans dick.

Most heroic characters sound like Mary Sues when we list their qualities because the two have so much in common. They're all fantasies of super special people, whether it's Batman or Dany or Jon Snow. But I agree with @Umbelina that GRRM doesn't write Mary Sues.

On paper, Dany certainly fulfills many requirements--she's even got unusual hair and eyes. She's the special Targ, not her brother. The only person to make dragons. Can walk through fire etc.

But she's not a Mary Sue because just look at her story! She's got tons of problems and makes plenty of mistakes. I remember once someone complaining it was sexist that Dany sometimes made bad choices as a leader based on emotion or love and a guy would never do that--this in a story where Robb Stark just destroyed everything to marry that nice girl who cleaned his wounds.

A Mary Sue is really about how heavily the writer puts their thumb on the scale for that character depending on the story and I'd say none of these characters get it too much. Even if Dany's actions in this ep seem unfair, imo, it feels far more like that's about plot than trying to raise up Jon Snow who's been denied plenty of obvious hero moments. Or even Tyrion, the person people think GRRM favors most in the books.

[UNOSEZ]

Why is Jon being saved by a woman somehow a knock against him?..  Or his birth parents.. All I know is Jon has worked for it and he inspires others.. He's not arrogant and has never carried himself as someone who "deserved" anything just because he was a Stark... He's fought and won.. He's  fought and lost... His father (uncle)  step son.. Brothers... Have been butchered.. The first woman he loved was killed.. He was murdered... Ol boy has been thru a lot.. He's earned his spot in this last episode 

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

As @Lady S. pointed out, the number of questions Ned asked the Night's Watch deserter was equal to the amount of gold extracted from the Lannister mines in the last several years.

Ned didn't even talk to the man and barely acknowledged him. It came across to me as anything but contemplative.

Which makes sense since the method of execution was typically different for nobles and commoners in medieval Europe.

Still, Ned did behead the Night's Watch deserter.  I doubt he was a high lord.  I suppose we can chalk it up to Ned's respect for the Night's Watch, but I suspect the true purpose was to give Ned a chance to talk to Bran about "the old way", to show off Ice, etc

Talking to someone can be a sign of contemplation, but it's not dispositive.  NOT talking to someone is also not dispositive, though I think it can be a sign that someone didn't think through their actions. 

Neds explanation of why he undertook the action was evidence if his forethought, and the fact that it didn't, as far as I remember take place directly after the desertion.

But again, I don't really play compare and contrast.  What he said made sense, and so I assume that he exercised some forethought and it's the impression that I got.  I didn't get that from Dany as all, what I got was "oh, you think you're cute choosing cersei over me....I got something for you, and it's going to particularly terrible cause I'm pissed off."

I don't think she chose dragon fire because she thought it was humane.  I think she chose Dragonfire because it wasn't.

Edited May 19, 2019 by RealReality

[Drogo]

"Fewer."