S08.E01: Winterfell

[Minneapple]

19 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Bran's interesting to me now. He tells Sansa and Dany that there are more important things to worry about than their courtesies, and has Sam to tell Jon the truth about his parentage, but finds time to wait outside, for at least one night to scare the shit out of Jamie.  Maybe this is a sign that Bran won't be stuck in robot mode forever.

Plus he called Jaime an old friend, which is hilarious to me, and then just waited around in the Winterfell courtyard overnight for him. Which is also hilarious. Like what the fuck? No one said, "hey Bran, come inside, it's time for breakfast." They're probably all, "well, you know, Bran just sort of does his thing and we just kind of roll with it."

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Misplaced said:

<snip >

Is Cersei really pregnant?  I wondered last season if 

   Reveal spoiler

she had a stomach tumour.

It would follow our known history.

[screamin]

41 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I didn’t say it was her responsibility alone.  But she was not raising the issue to facilitate a solution, she was using it as a tool to attack the army’s presence.  That isn’t productive.

What ‘usual courtesy’?  She always acts like this on the show.

Oh? She's always invariably been rude to people who have power over her? I don't recall that. But IMO, we see a change in her behavior even during the episode. She greeted Dany in the courtyard with the prescribed courtesy and avowal of loyalty to the monarch that any faithful subject would make in greeting their king. Then in the council, after hearing that Cersei's army is coming to 'help' she lost her temper and started speaking too bluntly - though not any worse than any Northern lord habitually speaks to his king in council, and still more politely than some (like Lady Lyanna).

"But she was not raising the issue to facilitate a solution..."

Okay, you want Sansa to be helpfully trying to facilitate a solution to the problem she's pointing out.  What solution do you propose she facilitate? We know her connections, we know her resources. What credible solution do you think she could propose ? AFAICT, the only solution Sansa can credibly propose is that the Vale be appealed to to feed Dany and the North. And the only persuasion Sansa can offer herself to induce cooperation  is her hand in marriage to Sweetrobin. Do you think Sansa OUGHT to be eagerly offering herself up for that sacrifice to 'facilitate' a solution? With her history? 

Myself, I totally don't blame her for not yet doing so, for sitting back to observe whether the queen and her hand might have enough smarts and resources to solve the problem or whether they are as feckless and clueless as they appear and it's up to Sansa to pull their nuts from the fire.

Edited April 15, 2019 by screamin

[Sakura12]

If Sansa was this great player, she would show her new allies respect, get Dany's guard down and manipulate in the background. Being disrespectful in front of the whole castle makes her look like a petty child. 

Dany doesn't have to help the North, she can go to Kings Landing and fight Cersei thats where the throne is. Dany saw for herself what that army of the dead looks like and is choosing to save her people. The Northerners seem to still not believe the white Walker threat is real. That's why they are still fighting over politics. Because of Jon going to Dany they have weapons to fight back to give them a chance against an ever growing army. Jon was not thinking about the throne, he's thinking about saving the world. 

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

No, that's just plain diplomacy 101 and the rules that dictate Westeros.

That line and the way she said it, and " what ever they want " can be taken two ways, the GH line is a veil warning with Danny's tone of voice.

[merrick715]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Plus he called Jaime an old friend, which is hilarious to me, and then just waited around in the Winterfell courtyard overnight for him. Which is also hilarious. Like what the fuck? No one said, "hey Bran, come inside, it's time for breakfast." They're probably all, "well, you know, Bran just sort of does his thing and we just kind of roll with it."

"Bran has.....visions" was probably uttered by Arya or Sansa to explain why Bran was just chilling in the courtyard for the entire night. I do hope Bran waiting for Jamie is a sign that he is going to reclaim some semblance of his personality.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

Oh? She's always invariably been rude to people who have power over her? 

Since Season 5, yeah.  And not just to people who have power over her; she’s snarky and imperious pretty much all the time.  The show seems to think it shows how cool and smart she is — I guess in fairness to them, much of the general audience seems to have bought into it.

Quote

"But she was not raising the issue to facilitate a solution..."

Okay, you want Sansa to be helpfully trying to facilitate a solution to the problem she's pointing out.  What solution do you propose she facilitate? We know her connections, we know her resources. What credible solution do you think she should be proposing? AFAICT, the only solution Sansa can credibly propose is that the Vale be appealed to to feed Dany and the North. And the only persuasion Sansa can offer herself to induce cooperation  is her hand in marriage to Sweetrobin. Do you think Sansa OUGHT to be eagerly offering herself up for that sacrifice to 'facilitate' a solution? With her history? 

Frankly, we have no idea how logistics work in this world.  Dany fed this huge army for several months on the tiny island of Dragonstone somehow.  She could inquire what sort of resources Dany had access to in the south, or whether they can buy food, or whatever else.  At a minimum, she can approach the matter constructively, as opposed to complaining about the very presence of this huge army and two dragons that they unquestionably need.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Seriously. Let Glover and his men die.

They will.

[Constantinople]

For all of the Northerners who are upset that Jon bent the knee:
My Lords. My Lords! Here is what l say to these two kings. Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in the South? What do they know of the Wall or the Wolfswood? Even their gods are wrong! Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? lt was the dragons we bowed to and now the dragons are dead! - Greatjon Umber, Season 1 Episode 10 (Fire and Blood)

Not anymore

Get over it

Edited April 15, 2019 by Constantinople

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

And I'll say it.  Sansa was right.  Whatever is "more important" Jon wants the North fighting AOD (and later Cersei, for his Queen) waltzing in and saying he handed over the crown the North gave him was a blunder.   As a result, some of his men left.

Men Sansa spent a lot of time catering too.  I felt Sansa's frustration.  If Lord Royce takes his Vale Forces and goes home, they are down that much more fighting men.

But because Sansa isn't smiling and waving pom poms, she's an evil B w/ an itch.  I have to roll my eyes at the circle jerk.

If you don't Yes Sir or Yes Mam Jon and Dany, your the story villain.

I don't think it's about waving pom-poms and fake cordiality, it's just about showing reasonable deference to Dany in public and not, for example, grousing about having to feed the additional forces who have come North to fight on their side against the AotD in front of the Northern lords and ladies. She did the same thing to Jon last season. 

That being said, I don't take a side in the endless Sansa vs. Dany debate. I like both characters, but both have flaws. Both make some bad and some good decisions. In fact, I think they are incredibly alike in their experiences and expectations. Both were forced into marriages they didn't want, raped, beaten, held captive and betrayed. Both managed to survive their respective tormentors and even killed some of them, and emerged stronger for it. Both want power, and feel entitled to it. Sansa is in a subordinate position to Jon but feels that she earned rulership of the North, whereas Dany has had to prove herself over and over again - and will have to do so again.

I think the main difference is that Dany has seen the AotD, while Sansa has only heard about them. I  think that Sansa doesn't fully understand the magnitude of the threat they face and if she did, she might appreciate what Jon did to get Dany to commit her forces to the cause. I assume this will happen once the show-runners have squeezed all the juice they can out of the Sansa/Dany conflict.

Edited April 15, 2019 by MarySNJ

[Conan Troutman]

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I feel like I’m watching a different show. I like Dany. I think she’s a very good queen and she approached Samwell very warmly. And then she did what she had to do as quickly and humanely as possible. I haven’t seen the Arrogance, instead, I saw Sansa barely being polite. She didn’t make any effort to even try to see were gracious. She barely says hello.

Yeah she doesn't lack warmth, but she's too regal all the time because she thinks that's how she's supposed to act. 

9 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Am I going to be the first to say it? I believe that Sansa was being standoff-ish and cold partly because she wants to rule Winterfell, but most importantly, she's jealous of Dany. I don't know if she has a crush on Jon or is in love with him (and doesn't realize it), but she was acting incredibly territorial about the entire situation.

I think she's just extremely suspicious of anyone she doesn't know (and even those she does), which is perfectly reasonable after all the shit that happened to her. She doesn't know Dany's motives yet nor can she judge her character and she isn't going to take anyone's word for it, not even Jon's. The standoff-ish tone I think was a deliberate choice by Sansa, she seems to want to poke people a bit first to see how they react. Being nice isn't really high on her list of priorities right now. 

7 hours ago, quarks said:

On a non-Sansa/Dany topic -

So, am I misinterpreting things, or did this episode (and the "About the Episode" bit from the producers) confirm that the Night King on the show is ALSO a Targaryen?

1) The producers said that only Targaryens can ride dragons - Jon can ride Rhaegal because he's a Targaryen.

2) The Night King can ride a dragon.

3) This is more of a stretch, but the spiral "artwork" the Night King seems to enjoy making with various body parts is kinda shaped like the spiral 3 heads of the dragon Targaryen banner.

If so, is this a show invention? I can't remember any similar indications in the books, although of course the Night King hasn't really appeared in the books and he doesn't have a dragon - yet. I can only hope that the book characters prove more intelligent than their TV versions and don't let the Army of the Dead get one.

1) Where did they say that? 

2) So can Jorah, Tormund, Beric, the Hound and that random wight they captured. They did so because Drogon let them, and the will of the dragon is ultimately the deciding point. As for the NK, he's technically riding an undead dragon who has no will, so I don't think any conclusions out of the NK riding Vyserion's body are valid other than dragons can be turned. 

3) Nice observation.  Maybe there's something to it? It could be the NK's version of religion would be my first guess.   

7 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

7. Poor little Ned Umber was a great jump scare.

Just watched it again, knowing exactly what would happen -  and it still got me. Perfect timing, just a tad before you'd expect it to happen. 

[merrick715]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany doesn't have to help the North, she can go to Kings Landing and fight Cersei thats where the throne is.

Wouldn't that be counterproductive if she wants to be the Queen of the seven kingdoms? If she just easily snagged the throne, her reign would be short. All of her potential subjects would die, and then be turned into Ice Zombies. I think her decision was made by both selfless and self- serving reasons.

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Yeah she doesn't lack warmth, but she's too regal all the time because she thinks that's how she's supposed to act. 

She’s a queen.  Obviously she aims to project a regal presence.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Sansa wasn’t asking a question, though, she was very obviously implying that Dany and her army are a burden and should leave.

If she was actually focused on logistics, she’d be looking for solutions.

She was telling truth, it is a burden, that somehow info wise on the armies size seems not to have been communicated properly, if it was, then Sansa could say bring all your food to WF.

I also don't think she's telling them to leave, she knows Jon's right, but why did you also not bring food; and we know why, it got burned up.

She could look for solutions if the needs were properly and timely communicated, doesn't look like Jon did that.

Logistically she did much and more then Jon would expect, or probably believed she could and except for Glover, kept his meager army and shaky alliance intact.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She was telling truth, it is a burden, that somehow info wise on the armies size seems not to have been communicated properly, if it was, then Sansa could say bring all your food to WF.

It’s not a burden, though.  A burden is something you can do without.  They desperately need Dany to win.  The Night King has a dragon; there is no way to do without Drogon and Rhaegal.

[Conan Troutman]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

She’s a queen.  Obviously she aims to project a regal presence.

I don't disagree, my point is just that she doesn't have to do that 24/7. Sometimes, a little less regal works just as well if not better. Same with rattling down her titles (or let Missandei do it). I get why she does it, but sometimes, it's a bit much. 

[screamin]

25 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Frankly, we have no idea how logistics work in this world.  Dany fed this huge army for several months on the tiny island of Dragonstone somehow.  She could inquire what sort of resources Dany had access to in the south, or whether they can buy food, or whatever else.  At a minimum, she can approach the matter constructively, as opposed to complaining about the very presence of this huge army and two dragons that they unquestionably need.

The food is also unquestionably needed. And Sansa minutely interrogating the queen about her resources before council is not Sansa "facilitating a solution", it's Sansa demanding the queen go over her books and account in detail for how she's going to feed her army, which is moving the goalposts and faulting Sansa for not being MORE aggressive toward the queen in council, when you've already faulted her for being TOO aggressive.

To me it doesn't make much sense to say that Sansa is wrong and rude for asking how the queen's army is to be fed, and then say Sansa ought to be asking the queen the same question and demanding answers of her in much more detail, and that she's wrong NOT to ask.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

It’s not a burden, though.  A burden is something you can do without.  They desperately need Dany to win.  The Night King has a dragon; there is no way to do without Drogon and Rhaegal.

And they desperately need the proper amount of food, clothing etc.

Danny, Jon, Sansa ; none of them can win if the communications aren't working.

Sansa planned for the North their people, Danny and or Jon failed to communicate the extra 80,000 possible army coming north to help, even if they did, I don't think the north has enough food for that many people, even in peace time, so it was really important that Danny saved that food in battle, instead of burning it, or find another source to bring with them.

[stagmania]

25 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

That being said, I don't take a side in the endless Sansa vs. Dany debate. I like both characters, but both have flaws. Both make some bad and some good decisions. In fact, I think they are incredibly alike in their experiences and expectations. Both were forced into marriages they didn't want, raped, beaten, held captive and betrayed. Both managed to survive their respective tormentors and even killed some of them, and emerged stronger for it. Both want power, and feel entitled to it. Sansa is in a subordinate position to Jon but feels that she earned rulership of the North, whereas Dany has had to prove herself over and over again - and will have to do so again.

I think the main difference is that Dany has seen the AotD, while Sansa has only heard about them. I  think that Sansa doesn't fully understand the magnitude of the threat they face and if she did, she might appreciate what Jon did to get Dany to commit her forces to the cause. I assume this will happen once the show-runners have squeezed all the juice they can out of the Sansa/Dany conflict.

Agree with all of this - and I find it so tiresome the way every single episode thread devolves into fights between pro- and anti- Sansa factions. I think there is more nuance in the way the show portrays these tensions than in the way some fans perceive them. 

Re: the food concern, it's a reasonable thing for Sansa to be initially concerned about, but it also shows that she doesn't really understand what's coming. They are not going to be feeding an army through a long winter - not even for a couple weeks. She doesn't grasp the scope of the threat and just how many of them are about to die - and how could she, since she hasn't seen it herself? This leads to her downplaying Dany's importance and focusing on her own resentment.

In turn, Dany has seen the threat and she knows she is going to be sending much of her loyal following out to die. To protect the North, to protect humanity. For her to arrive at Winterfell with this gift and be received with so little welcome and respect is understandably frustrating. On the flip side, she should know better than anyone that she has to show them something to earn their loyalty, since we've seen her do it time and again as she built this huge army.

All this situation needs is a good conversation between the two. It really doesn't need to get as dramatic as some people are making it out to be.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Sansa wanted to murder two children last season the Umber and Karstark heirs.  Jon spared them and they stayed loyal to House Stark.

Sansa wanted no such thing, she proposed the normal course of things in peace time put people who supported you and died for you in charge.

[Sakura12]

37 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Wouldn't that be counterproductive if she wants to be the Queen of the seven kingdoms? If she just easily snagged the throne, her reign would be short. All of her potential subjects would die, and then be turned into Ice Zombies. I think her decision was made by both selfless and self- serving reasons.

That's what I meant. Dany is choosing to help the North because she knows the dead are a threat that needs to be stopped in order to have land to rule. Sansa and the North are not even thinking of that. They are only thinking about not wanting to follow an outsider. They seem to not know or care about the threat to everyone's lives. Dany lost a dragon to help Jon and his team escape the white walkers. That's why Jon bent the knee. Dany is willing to fight with him. Besides the night watch, she's the only other leader with an army that believes him.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Sakura12

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, screamin said:

The food is also unquestionably needed. And Sansa minutely interrogating the queen about her resources before council is not Sansa "facilitating a solution", it's Sansa demanding the queen go over her books and account in detail for how she's going to feed her army, which is moving the goalposts and faulting Sansa for not being MORE aggressive toward the queen in council, when you've already faulted her for being TOO aggressive.

To me it doesn't make much sense to say that Sansa is wrong and rude for asking how the queen's army is to be fed, and then say Sansa ought to be asking the queen the same question and demanding answers of her in much more detail, and that she's wrong NOT to ask.

Nobody said anything about “interrogating the queen”, nor did I say she was wrong to ask.  She is wrong because she doesn’t approach the issue in a constructive manner with an intent to find a solution; it’s simply a personal attack, and is received as such.

Saying that they have stores that will only last a certain amount of time and suggesting a conference involving whoever on Team Dany handles logistics for the army, for instance, is a constructive approach.

[MissLucas]

Since the logistics of how Dany's army is being fed and otherwise supported has been a pet peeve of mine for several seasons I'm just happy to see that the question has finally been put forward. In previous seasons we could hand wave the issue by assuming the Dothraki would be pretty efficient at raiding foraging. Plus they were in a warmer climate. I know food and shelter logistics are pesky and don't make for great visuals but they can become pretty important especially in the cold of winter - just ask Napoleon.

But since it sounds as if the attack is imminent the problem will solve itself one way or the other pretty soon *gulp*

[ElizaD]

Bran waiting for Jaime was the most hilarious use of his powers thus far. Jaime will have a big interrogation scene where we ought to get lots of good reaction shots to the revelation of Cersei's betrayal, but I hope that he also has a quieter scene where he specifically addresses what he did to Bran.

[screamin]

35 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Nobody said anything about “interrogating the queen”, nor did I say she was wrong to ask.  She is wrong because she doesn’t approach the issue in a constructive manner with an intent to find a solution; it’s simply a personal attack, and is received as such.

It's a legitimate question. It's a personal attack. It's both! (It may also be a floorwax AND a dessert topping). Sansa's upset about the Lannister army and the truce with Cersei - and we know she's right to think Dany and Tyrion have been hoodwinked. In the shock of this revelation she spoke too angrily and bluntly - but she did speak the truth, regardless of whether she couched it too rudely. Dany, in the wake of Lady Lyanna's far more insulting sally, was already feeling touchy and lashed back, taking it purely as a personal attack and disregarding the fact that food's a serious life-and-death question for her new subjects. She answers in a way that reassures no one that she's going to help with the food, AND exacerbates their fear that her dragons are going to graze on the locals. (BTW, have we ever been shown that the dragons HAVE been trained not to snack on stray humans? They're allowed free rein; it's another legitimate question. From the way Dany talked last season, she thinks it was a terrible sin that the Targaryens of old restrained their dragons.)

Edited April 15, 2019 by screamin

[pfk505]

Re: Sansa

I think this Sansa is just a poorly realized version of the direction Sansa is heading in AFFC, which I absolutely loved. When I read that book I thought finally, here is the payoff for this character. She will become her mother. That's obviously what we're meant to be seeing in the show, but as with most things I think it will be done much better in the books.

Even so I like the intent and what they're trying to do. I also like Sophie Turner.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, pfk505 said:

Re: Sansa

I think this Sansa is just a poorly realized version of the direction Sansa is heading in AFFC, which I absolutely loved. When I read that book I thought finally, here is the payoff for this character. She will become her mother. That's obviously what we're meant to be seeing in the show, but as with most things I think it will be done much better in the books.

Even so I like the intent and what they're trying to do. I also like Sophie Turner.

GRRM has more room, than D & D, but they also could had fleshed her out better.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

On a more interesting topic, can we speculate on the weapon that Arya asked Gendry to create? What was that? A long knife? A short spear? Why would she want something that comes apart? Or was her drawing just implying that it's part dragonglass and part (metal/wood) shaft?  I thought it was designed to come apart -- like the knives soldiers added to their rifles in previous times.

i’m thinking she plans on going off alone and killing the night king by stabbing him with valerian steel and leaving dragonglass in the wound, poisoning him. Or vice versa. I need another look at the blueprints.

She isn’t a soldier. She is an assassin. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Affogato

[Sakura12]

The threat is moving towards them now. It's not like they are housing everyone for the whole winter. Plus if they didn't have an army with the weapons needed to defeat them they'd all die and food wouldn't matter. 

[cambridgeguy]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

She will become her mother. That's obviously what we're meant to be seeing in the show, but as with most things I think it will be done much better in the books.

On the show she had better become something better than her mom.  Cat helped screw things up in the first place when she impulsively grabbed Tyrion, then aided in Robb's downfall by freeing Jaime. 

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

The threat is moving towards them now. It's not like they are housing everyone for the whole winter. Plus if they didn't have an army with the weapons needed to defeat them they'd all die and food wouldn't matter. 

If Bran is too busy planning gotcha moments with people and staring off into space then they really should have sent some scouts out there - a more definitive idea of where the NK happens to be is pretty important rather than leaving it at "soon".

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

On the show she had better become something better than her mom.  Cat helped screw things up in the first place when she impulsively grabbed Tyrion, then aided in Robb's downfall by freeing Jaime. 

Yeah, your not quoting me, Sansa's not totally her mother, she's a mixed bag of Cat, Ned, Jon, Cersei, LF etc.

[FemmyV]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

3) This is more of a stretch, but the spiral "artwork" the Night King seems to enjoy making with various body parts is kinda shaped like the spiral 3 heads of the dragon Targaryen banner.

Wow, that and "Only a Targaryen ..." sailed right over my head. Good catch.

The NK's artwork reminds me of a platter of shrimp cocktail.

[AshleyN]

21 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

If Bran is too busy planning gotcha moments with people and staring off into space then they really should have sent some scouts out there - a more definitive idea of where the NK happens to be is pretty important rather than leaving it at "soon".

I find cryptic creeper Bran pretty hilarious, but the fact that no one has thought to get him to look up how the White Walkers were defeated last time feels like obvious stalling to me.

Hell, once Sam realized what he could do I'm surprised he didn't just camp out next to him and pepper him with constant questions. It'd be faster than a book, and more accurate too.

Edited April 15, 2019 by AshleyN

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, GraceK said:

Drogon seemed pissed and territorial to me 😂 like hurt my mother and I will fry  you !

Perhaps it was something akin to a little kid, that first time they catch their parents in the act.

At some point, they've got to start wondering where little dragons come from.

[Uncle JUICE]

8 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

I find cryptic creeper Bran pretty hilarious, but the fact that no one has thought to get him to look up how the White Walkers were defeated last time feels like obvious stalling to me.

It was DEFINITELY hilarious the way he kept like popping up at weird moments. I feel like he needed a blaring HERE'S BRAN horn to punctuate it. And 100% right on with the why is no one asking "Hey, any tips on what worked in the past?" 

I feel like it's a competition between Bran constantly telling everyone he's the Three Eyed Raven (does anyone know what that means? Like why isn't Sansa saying "Right, but what's that exactly?" or do you think they're all just "ugh, if I ask it'll only make less sense and I don't want to be in this convo anyway") and Jon constantly saying "Father always said" for the Westerosi Roll Eyes award. Did Ned ever have a normal conversation with anyone or did every one feature pearls of faux wisdom?

[shireenbamfatheon]

 

 

1

1 hour ago, screamin said:

She answers in a way that reassures no one that she's going to help with the food, AND exacerbates their fear that her dragons are going to graze on the locals. (BTW, have we ever been shown that the dragons HAVE been trained not to snack on stray humans? They're allowed free rein; it's another legitimate question. From the way Dany talked last season, she thinks it was a terrible sin that the Targaryens of old restrained their dragons.)

Regarding the bolded, this was in the same episode where Jorah explained to someone else that the DP was built to protect the people from dragons roaming around in a highly populated area. Dany stressing that it was wrong to contain them made we wonder if she'd forgotten the Meereenese child Drogon killed when it's a significant part of her book counterpart's arc that she eventually forgets the child's name. This episode, with the smallfolk running away in terror, Sansa wondering how they're supposed to feed them, the replenishing resources and so many people gathered at WF make me wonder if we'll see more civilian deaths at the hands of dragons this season because they'll run out of livestock to feed on.

[YaddaYadda]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

On a non-Sansa/Dany topic -

So, am I misinterpreting things, or did this episode (and the "About the Episode" bit from the producers) confirm that the Night King on the show is ALSO a Targaryen?

1) The producers said that only Targaryens can ride dragons - Jon can ride Rhaegal because he's a Targaryen.

2) The Night King can ride a dragon.

The Night king can ride a dragon because he raised him and essentially controls him with whatever magic he has. 

Viserion like all the other wights has no will of his own, whereas Rhaegal went to Jon of his own free will. (He even seemed to be dikking around with his rider when he was taking those crazy plunges). 

I saw a theory in some article this morning that the NK is the Mad King because of the spiral thingy. 

Quote

If so, is this a show invention? I can't remember any similar indications in the books, although of course the Night King hasn't really appeared in the books and he doesn't have a dragon - yet. I can only hope that the book characters prove more intelligent than their TV versions and don't let the Army of the Dead get one.

There is nothing like that in the books thus far and I don't think we're going to get a Night King either. I'm fairly certain Dany will lose a dragon, but not in the way we saw in the show. 

[Minneapple]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

I saw a theory in some article this morning that the NK is the Mad King because of the spiral thingy. 

Someone pointed out on twitter that the spiral looks an awful lot like the Targaryen three-headed dragon sigil, meaning the spiral could at some point have morphed into the Targ sigil? But I think it's just coincidence that they look alike. I mean I guess it's possible. At this point it's anyone's guess what the spiral symbolizes. The circle of life?

[sumiregusa]

3 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I don't think it's about waving pom-poms and fake cordiality, it's just about showing reasonable deference to Dany in public and not, for example, grousing about having to feed the additional forces who have come North to fight on their side against the AotD in front of the Northern lords and ladies. She did the same thing to Jon last season. 

That being said, I don't take a side in the endless Sansa vs. Dany debate. I like both characters, but both have flaws. Both make some bad and some good decisions. In fact, I think they are incredibly alike in their experiences and expectations. Both were forced into marriages they didn't want, raped, beaten, held captive and betrayed. Both managed to survive their respective tormentors and even killed some of them, and emerged stronger for it. Both want power, and feel entitled to it. Sansa is in a subordinate position to Jon but feels that she earned rulership of the North, whereas Dany has had to prove herself over and over again - and will have to do so again.

I think the main difference is that Dany has seen the AotD, while Sansa has only heard about them. I  think that Sansa doesn't fully understand the magnitude of the threat they face and if she did, she might appreciate what Jon did to get Dany to commit her forces to the cause. I assume this will happen once the show-runners have squeezed all the juice they can out of the Sansa/Dany conflict.

I came here to say exactly this. There seems to be a serious issue here with certain people not being able to take criticism of their favorite characters. 

For my part, I don't even like Sansa, or rather the way the writers have chosen to portray her. I compare her catty remarks about the new army and the dragons to Cersei taking every dig she could at Daenerys during the council meeting in 7.07 -- unproductive, transparent, unprofessional.

By that same turn, do I think Dany is faultless? No. Will I defend her til the end of time over every little thing? No. She just wasn't the person stirring shit and looking petty and being shortsighted in this instance. Sansa was. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by sumiregusa

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Someone pointed out on twitter that the spiral looks an awful lot like the Targaryen three-headed dragon sigil, meaning the spiral could at some point have morphed into the Targ sigil? But I think it's just coincidence that they look alike. I mean I guess it's possible. At this point it's anyone's guess what the spiral symbolizes. The circle of life?

Yeah also on Reddit, I still think it has to do with the Children and Isle of faces.

[FemmyV]

re: Dany -> Sam -> Jon etc

It was a great sequence, but it's hard to put aside the reasonable belief that Jorah would have known, and told Dany his savior's name was Samwell Tarly, and that they might have questioned if there was a connection.

But whatever. I felt bad for everyone involved in the library. Dany thought she was going to make Sam's night by granting him something awesome. Oops. As for Sam's surprising reaction about his father, well, he's always been conflicted there. He was always made to feel that he was the disappointment. His act of defiance in leaving Hornhill wasn't guilt-free; he had to sneak out, and he felt it necessary to ask for a pardon, for that.

What was missing from the conversation, IMO, that makes Sam's reaction a little more sympathetic was that he wasn't told the full circumstances: his father and bro were a huge part of betraying their own liege lords and the sack of Dany's ally. Shit happens in war, and their are repercussions. But still.. he's got a right to be upset, and he handled himself excellently with Dany. She's never had to think about the real human consequences of her actions in the past - everyone she hurt was an enemy.

Everyone pointing out Sam's hypocrisy is correct (her reasons for frying the Tarlys were no worse, and in the greater scheme of things, equally justified for the hanging of Olly, et al, and better than Slynt's head coming off), but he's an excuse for being emotional on this one.

What I don't get is why Bran wanted/needed Sam to tell Jon the truth about his parentage, while he was still in that state of shock. And I really don't see how Bran or anyone else would think this would suddenly change Jon's whole attitude about taking the crown for himself.  He didn't want to be King in the North in the first place. How badly is he going to want to be the Ruler of Seven (or Six) Kingdoms?

So why would it be important for Bran to try to get him to take the crown? And/or use Sam's anguish to put a wedge between Dany and Jon? Why didn't he want this news to be broken more gently?

[AshleyN]

2 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

What I don't get is why Bran wanted/needed Sam to tell Jon the truth about his parentage, while he was still in that state of shock. And I really don't see how Bran or anyone else would think this would suddenly change Jon's whole attitude about taking the crown for himself.  He didn't want to be King in the North in the first place. How badly is he going to want to be the Ruler of Seven (or Six) Kingdoms?

So why would it be important for Bran to try to get him to take the crown? And/or use Sam's anguish to put a wedge between Dany and Jon? Why didn't he want this news to be broken more gently?

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

This is a long standing possibility, many seem to believe Benjen knew, and because of the tragic fallout decided to take the black.

WRG to Lyanna, she was in the TOJ, so maybe news didn't filter quick enough.

I wonder if Bran will explain this part of their history.

That's an interesting theory. I've wondered if she didn't find some way to write a Dear Robert letter, and he lied about Rheagar kidnapping her. Oberon always sounded like he felt there was more to Rheagar's betrayal than met the eye. So did Littlefinger.

Edited April 15, 2019 by FemmyV

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Why didn't he want this news to be broken more gently?

He may be less robotic, but he still lacks emotions, sufficient for human interactions. 

[domina89]

4 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

So why would it be important for Bran to try to get him to take the crown? And/or use Sam's anguish to put a wedge between Dany and Jon? Why didn't he want this news to be broken more gently?

My question is: why tell Jon now at all?  These are things that can be sorted out if anyone is alive after the Long Night.  All this accomplishes now is distracting Jon when he needs to be 100% focused on the battle at hand.  He also needs to be confident in his alliance with Dany as he is facing such harsh criticism from the Northerners.  The timing really makes no sense to me and makes me question Bran's true agenda.

[Hanahope]

I think Sansa was cool to Danerys for several reasons.  First, she's a Targaryn and Sansa knows her history.  Second, Sansa's probably a bit done with Queens of the Seven Kingdoms.  Third, she probably is a bit miffed that Jon Snow gave up his title for her, without Dany first actually winning the war (after would be different).  I don't think its jealousy at all.  Sansa is just being cautious, which isn't surprising given what she's gone through.

I'm sure Jon has no idea that the only ones able to ride a dragon are Targaryns.  Same with Dany.  

Won't Yara be surprised when the Night King flies over to the Iron Islands with his pet ice dragon.

Arya better survive or I'm going to go stabby on someone (Shereen's death was bad enough).  I loved her saying she's used Needle one or two times (or 10 or 20).

I agree that people aren't questioning Bran enough.

[MrWhyt]

42 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I saw a theory in some article this morning that the NK is the Mad King because of the spiral thingy. 

thats kind of impossible. The Mad king was killed by the Kingslayer shortly before Jon's birth, the White Walkers have been around for millenia.

[AnnaL]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

But the Northerners seem to be unable to comprehend the sacrifice Dany is making for them.

Dany is not helping the North out of the kindness of her heart. It took months and months of Jon trying to convince her that the threat of the WW affects the whole realm, not just the north. If Dany does nothing there will be no Westeros as the north will only be the first stop and all the dead people will only make the NK army stronger. It is either stop them now or deal with a much deadly threat later. 

It is really unfortunate that this happens at the North that is already battered enough and in the beginning of a harsh winter because as usual, the high born class would have fled and the ones with no resources would be the ones directly in peril. It is always the one with no money or titles the ones who suffer. 

Dany intends to be the Queen of Westeros so these are supposed to be her domains. Also politically Daenerys has no allies, Tyrells, Martells and Greyjoys are no longer her allies and her best chance to win the throne is no defeat the NK, get the north on her side and by virtue of that win the Vale and Riverrun, three out of her 7 kingdoms. I am sure at least Tyrion has point this out to her (several times I am sure) 

Of course Daenerys didn't have to do any of this, she could have stayed in Essos and rule over her lands over there and never have to deal with any WW mess or Northerners, but she has made such a huge deal of being the rightful heir to the iron throne that helping one of the kingdoms seem like the thing to do. She was expecting the north to bend over backwards for her and call her mysha, mysha but that is not going to happen. 

In Westeros her Essos strategies will not work, she has to learn to adapt and be more flexible. 

[YaddaYadda]

13 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

thats kind of impossible. The Mad king was killed by the Kingslayer shortly before Jon's birth, the White Walkers have been around for millenia.

Trust me, I know. The article popped on my tablet, I read the first line, then shut the whole thing off.

It dismisses what we were shown with the man tied to the heart tree who got the dragonglass shoved in his heart as well. 

[dragonsbite]

23 minutes ago, domina89 said:

My question is: why tell Jon now at all?  These are things that can be sorted out if anyone is alive after the Long Night.  All this accomplishes now is distracting Jon when he needs to be 100% focused on the battle at hand.  He also needs to be confident in his alliance with Dany as he is facing such harsh criticism from the Northerners.  The timing really makes no sense to me and makes me question Bran's true agenda.

(bolding is mine)

Is it possible that Bran sees that, to defeat the NK, Jon must be their leader? Bran's first real statements in the episode were about defeating the NK and putting aside the petty squabbles.

Also, regarding his bad timing of sending a bereaved Samwell to speak to Jon, clearly Bran is still suffering from a lack of empathy/sensitivity. His brain must be full of so much information that he can't process that as well as people's emotions (or his own).