S08.E01: Winterfell

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

Do I misremember that before the BotB Sansa said something to Jon like "Rickon is already dead"? I think she already wrote off baby brother. 

She said Rickon isn't going to survive, he's a threat to Ramsey more then Jon or she is, it's not that she wrote him off, it's she knows Ramsey is going to send them a message with him.

The throwing down of Shaggy's head is the reason; I think Sansa felt if they win they find Rickon dead on a X like the old woman, instead he used Rickon to draw out Jon.

She saw the writing, up until the parley she probably felt they had a chance, one Shag's head is dropped she knew different, she let out a death stare to Ramsey, before leaving.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Can Bran see the future? I thought he could only see present and past?

From Season 3 Episode 2: Dark Wings, Dark Words

Quote

JOJEN: No, the raven is something different, something deeper. The raven brings the sight.

BRAN: Seeing things that haven't happened yet?

JOJEN: Or things that happened long before you were born or things that are happening right now thousands of miles away.

[Jaded Sapphire]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

From Season 3 Episode 2: Dark Wings, Dark Words

And as for the past, he has to actively seek it out. He didn't know about Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage until he went looking for it even though he knew about them being Jon's parents.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Jaded Sapphire

[Nanrad]

4 hours ago, taanja said:

Still, in my opinion, that scene was weird and seemed to come out of nowhere. I never -- from what the show showed me and told me --- Never ever ever thought those two had any romantic anything toward one another. He was an older dude (not in a creepy way) who befriended a young girl pretending to be a boy. 

Well, things can change for people when a few years are removed. But, in the case of Arya and Gendry, you have to rewatch their scenes for a refresher. Arya is clearly ogling his body during a scene where he is shirtless. That doesn’t mean she has all of the feelings in the world for  him, but that something, physically at least, is doing it for her. There is no other way to read that scene.

Gendry, for his part, never shows his hand, but shows that he understands the delicate ness of the situation. Arya tells him to stay and that she can be his family (she’s not referring to a brother like thing, but definitely not boyfriend—she’s unable to comprehend the complexities of her request) and Gendry tells her that she wouldn’t be his family, she’d be his lady. 

There was never romance, but there was moments where Arya had a crush and Gendry doesn’t give away much because 1. Age difference 2. Class difference 3. Social norms that he understands and Arya doesn’t.

The scene doesn’t come out of no where, it’s built upon their past interaction. For example, the”m’lady” conversation. When Gendry found out she came from a “ruling” house, he cracked jokes about it, but never saw her any differently, which Arya appreciated/s. When he sees her again, he makes the same joke as if she’s the same person, but to him, she is and always will be. 

And Arya always has to give him shit, which the “you don’t know any other rich girls” comes in.

Their way of joking around in the past has evolved into their way of flirting now.

9 hours ago, AnnaL said:

 Jon will have very hard decisions to make ahead of him, he needs to use his big head. That is all I am saying. I am willing to bet that one of those hard decisions would put him again on the path to chose love over duty and I just hope he makes the right choice

Are you implying that Jon was thinking with his dick when he bent the knee? As much as some of us cry for things to be spelled out for us, this was something we explicitly saw on screen. Jon repeatedly refused to bend the knee when Dany asked him. He did not bend the knee until Dany saved him and lost a dragon for her kind gesture. She then decided to go to WF with him without asking again. He bent the knee because he saw Dany worthy in his eyes, especially as someone who wants to rule and is willing to put herself on the field and beside her people.

I think the issue is that he didn’t consult Sansa and the North about his decision. But, it was completely logical and not based off of feelings.

Jon almost always chooses duty over love. I’m not understanding the narrative of Jon bending the knee to Dany or doing anything being influenced by love. It does such a disservice to his character because, despite struggling with his decision, he almost always chooses duty over love. It just so happens he fell in love with Dany at the same time, but his decision wasn’t influenced by his feelings and we all know that. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Nanrad

[MrsR]

Bran has seen the future in his previous visions. He sees the Sept of Baelor blow up and he sees a dragon fly over Kl. 

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Gummo said:

A lot of people are giving Bran shit for not just telling everyone exactly what's going to happen, but what if his foresight doesn't work like that?

What if he sees ALL possible futures and is metaphorically tiptoeing his way through each moment because he's not sure how what he says or does will affect getting from A to B? Or if he sees THE future but not every step on the path there? Again he would have to be very careful about his words & actions because he doesn't know for sure that his revelations wouldn't make people act differently than they did in his visions; heck, their foreknowledge might create a new timeline altogether.

Or (and this is more likely storytelling-wise) Bran is on such a cosmic, mystical plain now, he THINKS he's being simple and clear but to others his pronouncements are mysterious and gnomic.

.

..

... or it's just sloppy, rushed writing. 

Or the Starks just suck at communicating.

[RoberTee]

Nothing in the show indicates Bran can see the future. 

Season 7, Episode 3:

"It means I can see everything, everything that's ever happened to everyone. Everything that's happening right now."

What people are complaining about is the fact that he's basically a human drone but no one seems to use that to track the Night King. 

[rmontro]

I've always had the impression only Targaryens could ride dragons.  As far as Daenerys knows, Jon Snow is just a Stark bastard, why would he be able to ride a dragon?

[Calamity Jane]

9 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

This reminds me of Robb and Cat in season 2. She wanted him to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and Robb responded that he couldn't do that. Cat I believe said something else and Robb told her it wasn't that simple and she knew it.

Robb was a brother and commander too and I believe he loved his sisters as much as Jon loved Rickon. Definitely a hard place to be in and Jon had it worse imo because Rickon was right there in his face which I think made it harder for him to control his emotions.

It wasn’t really his riding out to try to get Rickon that was the problem because nobody followed him then. It was after Rickon dropped and Jon decided to charge towards Ramsay’s army alone that the troops also charged to give him support,  and that led to the slaughter. So it wasn’t his impulse to save Rickon that caused the disaster, it was what he did afterwards. 

[Calamity Jane]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

From Season 3 Episode 2: Dark Wings, Dark Words

I think they’ve always been a bit cagey about this. The three-eyed raven and Jojen both clearly had visions of future events, and it was always implied that Bran’s powers were stronger, plus he did see the Sept of Baelor blowing up in a vision, so it seems he should have some ability to see future events. But they never come out and confirm it. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Calamity Jane
Fixing autocorrect

[Chris24601]

My impression on Three-Eyed Raven future sight is that while one can get solid views of the past and present, the future is more "glimpses." Brief flashes and generally without context.

Basically, its the same as how the Force works in Star Wars (and is probably envisioned in pretty much the same way)... the past and present can be seen relatively clearly (if you know what you're looking for or share a connection to someone), but "always in motion is the future."

This probably also covers why the prophecies in the GoT-world are generally so vague. The people making them don't have the full picture, just impressions and glimpses... possibly even just symbolic images (ex. the Iron Throne with Snow on it in Dany's vision).

Take the destruction of the Sept. If we saw what Bran saw we know it probably blows up because of Wildfire (because its green fire), but we don't know WHEN it blows up or why it was blown up. What if it was because the Night King had been lured inside and was otherwise empty? What if its not going to happen for a hundred years because a lost cache gets disturbed (and even looking for it might set it off because its so unstable) and so you left a warning and its empty? The image of the destruction itself is phenomenally unhelpful.

A lovely example of this was actually in the series Babylon-5 where they used a "set timeline" (all time travel has already happened so you can't change the past or the future) and one vision of the future was Babylon-5 exploding. Seems really ominous and had lots of people worried, but in the end it was revealed that it was a vision from many many years in the future when it had been scheduled for demolition after being decommissioned.

Far more useful is, honestly, Bran's ability to get instant real-time intelligence from across the entire realm. He could see Jamie was coming, not from a future vision, but because he could view Jamie on the road. He knows where the Night King is. He could probably have told Tyrion that the Lannister armies actually aren't coming if he'd thought it was important.

My hunch is Bran probably has seen enough glimpses of the future that he knows certain things happen, but he has to wait until closer to the actual events to have context. Like once you knew that Cersei was going to face a trial in the Sept with all her enemies there, that vision of the exploding Sept has some context and taking steps might be productive.

That's probably the case with why Bran told Sam it was time to tell Jon the truth. Something he caught in the glimpse of the future was a clue that it was near at hand and it was time to say something; maybe the way Sam was so clearly upset for example.

[Stella]

9 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

That's probably the case with why Bran told Sam it was time to tell Jon the truth.

I'm guessing it was time because it was post the dragon joy-ride. Jon is likely now bonded with Rhaegal. Bran probably knew this was important and needed to happen before the reveal.

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I've always had the impression only Targaryens could ride dragons.  As far as Daenerys knows, Jon Snow is just a Stark bastard, why would he be able to ride a dragon?

This is a very good question.  I think she was confident that the dragon would let Jon on because of the way it had behaved towards him in the past. But as for WHY her dragon is tolerant of him, the only fan-wank I can come up with is that she's assuming Jon's unknown mother must be descended from a Targaryen (probably another bastard or descended from a Targaryen bastard.) Targaryens intermarry in the belief that one needs a sizable dose of Targaryen blood in order to ride dragons but perhaps Dany is coming to believe that for some people, a little dab will do ya.

Someone upthread wondered why Dany hasn't gone scouting on the dragons yet.  Plot-wise I think I understand the reason. We don't want Dany's first contact with her un-dead child (the resurrected dragon) to happen in some random place while she is scouting the enemy.  That confrontation (Dany, Jon, and the Night King, all on Dragonback) is likely to be the climax of the season (Cleganebowl eat your heart out.)  

And while some have scoffed at Dany & Jon's decision to go for a romantic dragon-ride, if Jon IS going to ride a dragon in to battle, he needs to get in some practice.

[MissLucas]

Has the whole dragon-rider thing ever been mentioned on the show? I think I picked it up on the internet somewhere. Or maybe it has been mentioned but not with Dany around. Dragon-lore seems to be pretty arcane. Maybe she doesn't know about it and just assumes that Raeghal approves of Jon because she approves of Jon. I totally expect someone (probably Sam after unearthing another scroll nobody has touched for centuries) bringing it up at a vital moment and it will be the final proof of Jon's blood-line. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by MissLucas

[Nanrad]

If Dany was so rah rah about bend the knee or die by dragon fire, why did she keep Jon alive before his adventure to capture a white walker? 

[Joimiaroxeu]

If Bran can't see the future, what was that "waiting for an old friend" thing all about? How would he have known Jamie was on his way there?

[arty]

45 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

If Bran can't see the future, what was that "waiting for an old friend" thing all about? How would he have known Jamie was on his way there?

And I love that Bran, he of the "we have no time for any of this!", made plenty of time to ensure his was the first face Jamie saw upon entering Winterfell. Humans are gonna human, even as the apocalypse approaches. And it's nice to know that Bran is still (somewhat) human.

[Lemuria]

On 4/16/2019 at 6:25 PM, Clanstarling said:

should they win.

And that's the primary issue.  Because if they don't win, the amount of stores they have are irrelevant.  Without the two armies and two dragons, the North is screwed.  And you'll never convince me that Jon did not send a raven telling Sansa that "Hey, Sis.  Great news! I'm returning with a ton of dragonstone, plus two armies and two dragons--which is wonderful, since fire also can destroy wights.  Your brother, Jon" So, she had some lead-in time.  What did she do with it, exactly? (And no one said that, if they win, all of the armies and both dragons with be hanging around the North, eating the stores up, and not heading south to face the other enemy.)

Thing is, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.  If the show wanted me to see Sansa as a smart and competent leader, it wouldn't have had her voice it as sarcastic complaint designed more to increase friction between Dany and the Northerners.  Instead, she would have indicated that she was concerned the stores they had might not be enough and suggested a barnstorming session to try to determine how much might be needed and if they have it, or can get it in time.

On 4/17/2019 at 10:21 AM, Constantinople said:

Given Jon's general disregard for Sansa's opinions, I'm starting to wonder if he would have brushed that off, saying Littlefinger can't be trusted.

On Edit: But also, I think the writers were unable to come up with something that would notify Jon but not spoil the surprise for viewers

We'll have to agree to disagree that Jon disregards her opinions.  Sansa, on the other hand, has played passive-aggressive with him; has challenged him in front of everyone, something no monarch would ever tolerate (and no matter how many times it's happened, she never seems to get the point); and has kept (and, we've been told in recent interviews, will continue to keep) major secrets from him. 

Could she be more blatant about having no respect for, or faith in, him?

As for why she kept Littlefinger's offer a secret:  I've heard from Sansa fans that she kept it at Castle Black when LF first showed up because she thought Jon would accept it and she didn't want LF around; and after the BoTB, because she thought Jon wouldn't accept it because he was too proud; and now, because he didn't trust LF--except that Jon didn't really know anything about LF at the time of the BoTB (I don't remember LF even coming up in any discussion before the battle).

However, according to the person who should know the character best--ST--Sansa sat on the information because she wanted to lead the Vale army in and be the Hero of The Day.  So, if I understand ST correctly, Sansa let all those people die who were there fighting for her cause, not their own, so that she could play at being the Savior of Winterfell?  IMO, it's a good thing that the Northern Lords--who refused to follow the Stark banner to fight for Winterfell because they felt betrayed by Robb Stark--don't know about this.

[Lemuria]

4 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

and Jon decided to charge towards Ramsay’s army alone that the troops also charged to give him support,  and that led to the slaughter.

That's not what happened.  He stopped by Rickon and saw him die, looked up at Ramsey, and saw all of Ramsey's archers draw and prepare to fire.  Jon's troops were all standing still (as was Jon himself) and would be cut down by the hail of arrows.  He shouts out for them to go and goes himself, forward because he could see the arrows were being aimed at where he had been standing and also behind him into his front line, but for the moment, not in front of him.  

Quote

Has the whole dragon-rider thing ever been mentioned on the show? 

I don't know if it was in the show or in something external written about it, but I believe that not all Valeryans were able to ride or control dragons.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lemuria

[Drogo]

47 minutes ago, arty said:

And I love that Bran, he of the "we have no time for any of this!", made plenty of time to ensure his was the first face Jamie saw upon entering Winterfell. 

Bran Stark: The Three-Eyed SaltBae.

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, Leroux said:

When the WW take over WF and heads towards KL, Jaime gets there first and sees that Cersei is about to blow up KL with wildfire and just as he did with the Mad King, that he will kill Cersei (valongar) and stabs her in the heart so his sword (which I think is made in part of Ice from Ned) would become light bringer , the magical sword that will kill the NK. So Jaime would become Azor Ahai reincarnated, Jaime would the TPTWP and would vindicate his name. Then Jaime marries Brienne and they have beautiful babies.  

Poor Jaime would be a Kingslayer, a Queenslayer, and a Kinslayer.

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Or maybe it has been mentioned but not with Dany around. Dragon-lore seems to be pretty arcane. Maybe she doesn't know about it and just assumes that Raeghal approves of Jon because she approves of Jon. 

For the moment, I'm willing to hand wave it as Raeghal allowing Jon to ride him (her?) because Dany wishes it.  At least as far as she knows.

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

If Dany was so rah rah about bend the knee or die by dragon fire, why did she keep Jon alive before his adventure to capture a white walker? 

Jon had come to her as a messenger to seek her aid, it would have been bad form to burn him to a crisp.  The Tarlys had opposed her in battle, and been defeated.  From what I know of Westeros history, they got the standard deal:  Bend the knee, and we will welcome you to our side.  Refuse, and be executed.

[Nanrad]

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

Jon had come to her as a messenger to seek her aid, it would have been bad form to burn him to a crisp.  The Tarlys had opposed her in battle, and been defeated.  From what I know of Westeros history, they got the standard deal:  Bend the knee, and we will welcome you to our side.  Refuse, and be executed.

No, I agree, but she’s being accused on burning anyone and everyone who doesn’t bend the knee. Others claim it’s because she burned the Tarlys and not because she executed them. But, the execution wasn’t unusual in the least bit. I was just pointing out that she doesn’t burn people to a crisp instantly just for saying no because the criticism seems inconsistent. 

[rmontro]

2 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

No, I agree, but she’s being accused on burning anyone and everyone who doesn’t bend the knee. Others claim it’s because she burned the Tarlys and not because she executed them. But, the execution wasn’t unusual in the least bit. I was just pointing out that she doesn’t burn people to a crisp instantly just for saying no because the criticism seems inconsistent. 

Yeah, I don't agree with that criticism.  Although I get the feeling the show wants us to hold it against her.

I mean, yeah she could have been more magnanimous about it and thrown them into a dungeon somewhere (although she doesn't have dungeons yet).  If you consider that the kind thing to do.  But you don't win wars by being nice.

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

It wasn’t really his riding out to try to get Rickon that was the problem because nobody followed him then. It was after Rickon dropped and Jon decided to charge towards Ramsay’s army alone that the troops also charged to give him support,  and that led to the slaughter. So it wasn’t his impulse to save Rickon that caused the disaster, it was what he did afterwards. 

Yep. He saw red and wanted to murder Ramsey with his bare hands. I get that impulse. I know that kind of rage.  The charge wasn’t the disaster, the disaster was being outnumbered; the disaster was Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale army and them not being engaged from the beginning. The Vale army would have evened the odds considerably and maybe saved a life or two. Sansa was complicit in the slaughter of her banner men willing to step up and the wildlings who stepped up only because of Jon.  That action on Sansa’s part is the main reason why I will never like that character. 

[Constantinople]

It seems odd that Sam just learned the fates of his father and brother

In the first two episodes of Season 7, after murdering the Freys, Arya travels from The Twins towards King's Landing, planning to kill Cersei. She stops at the Inn, runs into Hot Pie, and decides to head to Winterfell instead after Hot Pie tells her the Boltons are dead, and Jon Snow is King of the North after winning the Battle of the Bastards

The maesters at the Citadel withheld the news from Sam about the fact and manner of the death of Randyll and Dickon. But Sam, Gilly and little Sam left the Citadel in Episode 5 and arrived in Winterfell in Episode 7

I find it hard to believe that after traversing almost the entire length of the Seven Kingdoms, whether by land, by sea or some combination,  Sam wouldn't have heard some news of what happened to his father and brother. That was memorable, and news gets around, just as it did about the Battle of the Bastards.

(for that matter, I think Arya likely would have heard about the Battle of the Bastards in the weeks between murdering Walder at the first feast at the end of Season 6, and murdering the Freys at the second feast at the start of Season 7. However, that's another issue)

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Yeah, I don't agree with that criticism.  Although I get the feeling the show wants us to hold it against her.

I mean, yeah she could have been more magnanimous about it and thrown them into a dungeon somewhere (although she doesn't have dungeons yet).  If you consider that the kind thing to do.  But you don't win wars by being nice.

She has dungeons, or at least cages, back at Dragonstone. Davos spent a good part of Season 3 in them

[Friendly kitty]

4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

If Bran can't see the future, what was that "waiting for an old friend" thing all about? How would he have known Jamie was on his way there?

That's it! I think Bran sees the past, the present, and the future. Just all these visions are blurry, fuzzy, not always clear to him. He has not yet fully become a three-eyed raven, so he knows everything, but there are gaps in knowledge. Jaime, for example, he waited for three whole days, since he knew that he would arrive, but did not know when this would happen.

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I find it hard to believe that after traversing almost the entire length of the Seven Kingdoms, whether by land, by sea or some combination,  Sam wouldn't have heard some news of what happened to his father and brother.

Sam just read the books, trying to figure out how to beat King's Night. He simply did not listen to any other news, separated himself from everyone, and surrounded himself only with books, and not people.

[lorbeer]

18 hours ago, Bali said:

 But really, why is she so mean to Tyrion?

I didn't see it as being mean rather being cold to him. She hates Lannisters, she was forced to marry him, she's been through a lot and she's learned she needs to take care of herself. No wonder she didn't welcome him warmly with open arms. We don't even know if she knows what happened to him like trial and all after that. She may know some of that. She never loved him and then she was yet again forced to marry somone she didn't want to. Tyrion treated her well and was nice to her but he didn't do one thing to rescue her from all those monsters. And I mean taking her away from KL not the 'incident' when Tyrion helped her when she was beaten by some soldier (don't remember this exactly) on Joeffrey's commands.

And there's also one thing more why she treats him this way and possibly doesn't trust him. He chose Dany's side. And I don't think Sansa likes it. 😉 In their brief conversation, if I remeber correctly, she says soemthing about him being the hand of the queen now. I think she maybe even despise him for that.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

If Bran can't see the future, what was that "waiting for an old friend" thing all about? How would he have known Jamie was on his way there?

He doesn't need to see the future for this. Just the present (Jamie leaving Cersei and Jamie being on his way to Winterfell).

[GatorDeb]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:16 PM, voiceover said:

Thoughts on what's here:

It was Bran -- not revenge -- made Sam run to tell Jon about his birthright.  

Cersei threw Euron a "STFU" fuck.  She weighed her options, and a quickie w/an ugly pirate seemed less aggravation.  She doesn't give a shit about "plausible deni-a-anything" anymore.  She's said as much to Jaime.

Uhm, he may be many things, but ugly ain't one of them.

[BooBear]

8 hours ago, Nanrad said:

If Dany was so rah rah about bend the knee or die by dragon fire, why did she keep Jon alive before his adventure to capture a white walker? 

Yeh I am not really buying the "Dany" kills anyone who opposes her. The Tarlys practically begged her to kill them. Not to mention that dad Tarly did nothing at all to save his son. He wanted his son to die with him.  I am sorry for Sam but some people deserve to die. 

She has been more than fair with people and it is my sense that Dany feels she needs the crown first before she can do anything meaningful to make things better.  So everyone acts like she is all about power but it isn't clear yet if she is all about power for power's sake.  She is driving toward a bigger goal. She needs to play by the rules in place right now before she can break them.  It seems unfair to me that people judge her for that. 

I have never really understood the allure of Jon Snow. He is exactly like Ned and if he was king he would trust the wrong person and they would destroy him and his reign. Over and over again the story of GOT is that kindness only gets you .... well, Ned got beheaded, Doran Martell was weak and look what happened and then, look what happened to Jon Snow. Also, I think Jon sucks at strategy. I think the apparent idea to face the night king at Winterfell is a bad one. Just like the battle of the bastards Jon is under manned and  not at his strongest.  I honestly think Cerci is a better tactician.   

[terrymct]

On 4/17/2019 at 2:20 PM, Efzee said:

I don't recall seeing Lyanna Mormont's council anywhere at all when she was speaking for her people. Or when she was the first to name Jon king in the North. Think she asked her council their thoughts on it before she said it? 

The first episode she appeared in she definitely had some older dudes there advising her.  At one point, she signals to one of them to back off that she has this.

[Constantinople]

14 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

It wasn’t really his riding out to try to get Rickon that was the problem because nobody followed him then. It was after Rickon dropped and Jon decided to charge towards Ramsay’s army alone that the troops also charged to give him support,  and that led to the slaughter. So it wasn’t his impulse to save Rickon that caused the disaster, it was what he did afterwards. 

Thank you for pointing this out

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

That's not what happened.  He stopped by Rickon and saw him die, looked up at Ramsey, and saw all of Ramsey's archers draw and prepare to fire.  Jon's troops were all standing still (as was Jon himself) and would be cut down by the hail of arrows.  He shouts out for them to go and goes himself, forward because he could see the arrows were being aimed at where he had been standing and also behind him into his front line, but for the moment, not in front of him.

Jon's troops were in no danger from the arrows, at least before Jon charged.

After Rickon died, Jon charged towards Ramsay's lines at the same time as Bolton archers fired their arrows, and before a single arrow had landed.  The only arrows we see landing fall around Rickon, and several hit him, but nowhere near Jon's troops

Jon's troops were well behind Rickon and completely out of range of the Bolton archers, t least until Jon's troops followed Jon by charging the Bolton lines

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Yep. He saw red and wanted to murder Ramsey with his bare hands. I get that impulse. I know that kind of rage.  The charge wasn’t the disaster, the disaster was being outnumbered; the disaster was Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale army and them not being engaged from the beginning. The Vale army would have evened the odds considerably and maybe saved a life or two. Sansa was complicit in the slaughter of her banner men willing to step up and the wildlings who stepped up only because of Jon.  That action on Sansa’s part is the main reason why I will never like that character. 

The charge was the disaster, and it was Jon's fault.

It’s crucial that we let them charge at us. They’ve got the numbers, we need the patience - Davos Seaworth the evening before the Battle of the Bastards, during the battle planning at which Jon, Sansa and Tormund were also present.

Neverthless Jon ignore this and almost destroyed his army as a result.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

He doesn't need to see the future for this. Just the present (Jamie leaving Cersei and Jamie being on his way to Winterfell).

Okay, I think this a valid possibility. However, just because Bran "saw" Jaime intending to go to Winterfell that doesn't mean Jaime would necessarily get there. Bran seemed totally confident Jaime would arrive.

[GodsBeloved]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The charge was the disaster, and it was Jon's fault.

It’s crucial that we let them charge at us. They’ve got the numbers, we need the patience - Davos Seaworth the evening before the Battle of the Bastards, during the battle planning at which Jon, Sansa and Tormund were also present.

Neverthless Jon ignore this and almost destroyed his army as a result.

I love Davos, I really do.

I wonder if they can/will leverage this strategy against the dead.

I may watch BoB tonight. I think I remember Tormund and maybe even Davos saying something like What is he doing? Though I'm not sure if it was when he was charging to get Rickon or after Rickon was killed.

Jon charging ahead of their plan after Rickon had been killed makes it worse imo because Jon went completely against the plan because he was bloodthirsty. I get that I do but it became more about him than the big picture.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

That's it! I think Bran sees the past, the present, and the future. Just all these visions are blurry, fuzzy, not always clear to him. He has not yet fully become a three-eyed raven

I never understood why the three-eyed raven was referred to as the three-eyed raven, but your post made me wonder if there's one eye looking at the past, the second eye looking at the present and the third looking at the future

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

On 4/16/2019 at 3:25 PM, Clanstarling said:

should they win.

And that's the primary issue.  Because if they don't win, the amount of stores they have are irrelevant.  Without the two armies and two dragons, the North is screwed.  And you'll never convince me that Jon did not send a raven telling Sansa that "Hey, Sis.  Great news! I'm returning with a ton of dragonstone, plus two armies and two dragons--which is wonderful, since fire also can destroy wights.  Your brother, Jon" So, she had some lead-in time.  What did she do with it, exactly? (And no one said that, if they win, all of the armies and both dragons with be hanging around the North, eating the stores up, and not heading south to face the other enemy.)

Except that generally speaking people don't go into battle with the thought that it is pointless and they're all going to die anyway, that they won't save anyone, and that there will be no ultimate purpose to their deaths. They're going into battle to SAVE the North and the rest, even if the odds are not looking good. Therefore, planning for what happens after is entirely relevant, in my opinion. They're not going into war to "fight and die", they're going into with "fight OR die" - so winning is their plan. And you need to plan for that - because if you win, and you don't have stores to make it through the winter - which in GoT is not a 4 month season, but years, you're going to die anyway, and might as well have just partied and enjoyed life as much as possible until the Night King arrived.

I don't have any skin in the game when it comes to which character is best or worst, because they are all flawed. I disliked the Sansa character for seasons, but have grown to appreciate her. But I love Jon too, though he drives me crazy some times. As do they all.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Clanstarling

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

Yeh I am not really buying the "Dany" kills anyone who opposes her. The Tarlys practically begged her to kill them. Not to mention that dad Tarly did nothing at all to save his son. He wanted his son to die with him.  I am sorry for Sam but some people deserve to die. 

She has been more than fair with people and it is my sense that Dany feels she needs the crown first before she can do anything meaningful to make things better.  So everyone acts like she is all about power but it isn't clear yet if she is all about power for power's sake.  She is driving toward a bigger goal. She needs to play by the rules in place right now before she can break them.  It seems unfair to me that people judge her for that. 

I have never really understood the allure of Jon Snow. He is exactly like Ned and if he was king he would trust the wrong person and they would destroy him and his reign. Over and over again the story of GOT is that kindness only gets you .... well, Ned got beheaded, Doran Martell was weak and look what happened and then, look what happened to Jon Snow. Also, I think Jon sucks at strategy. I think the apparent idea to face the night king at Winterfell is a bad one. Just like the battle of the bastards Jon is under manned and  not at his strongest.  I honestly think Cerci is a better tactician.   

Or any of the Starks, if you think about it. Ned was an honorable guy but sucked at smelling out rats and got his head lopped off for it. Robb threw the war away to marry Talia. Jon has good intentions, but suffers from tunnel-vision. Sansa doesn't know when to keep her mouth shut. Why exactly is the North so convinced it MUST be a Stark in place as Warden? 

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

Poor Jaime would be a Kingslayer, a Queenslayer, and a Kinslayer.

So Jaime's the 3 sword slayer, and Bran's the 3 eyed raven. Sounds like a buddy film. (I know it won't be three swords, but I couldn't resist)

[AnnaL]

17 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Well, things can change for people when a few years are removed. But, in the case of Arya and Gendry, you have to rewatch their scenes for a refresher. Arya is clearly ogling his body during a scene where he is shirtless. That doesn’t mean she has all of the feelings in the world for  him, but that something, physically at least, is doing it for her. There is no other way to read that scene.

Gendry, for his part, never shows his hand, but shows that he understands the delicate ness of the situation. Arya tells him to stay and that she can be his family (she’s not referring to a brother like thing, but definitely not boyfriend—she’s unable to comprehend the complexities of her request) and Gendry tells her that she wouldn’t be his family, she’d be his lady. 

There was never romance, but there was moments where Arya had a crush and Gendry doesn’t give away much because 1. Age difference 2. Class difference 3. Social norms that he understands and Arya doesn’t.

The scene doesn’t come out of no where, it’s built upon their past interaction. For example, the”m’lady” conversation. When Gendry found out she came from a “ruling” house, he cracked jokes about it, but never saw her any differently, which Arya appreciated/s. When he sees her again, he makes the same joke as if she’s the same person, but to him, she is and always will be. 

And Arya always has to give him shit, which the “you don’t know any other rich girls” comes in.

Their way of joking around in the past has evolved into their way of flirting now.

Are you implying that Jon was thinking with his dick when he bent the knee? As much as some of us cry for things to be spelled out for us, this was something we explicitly saw on screen. Jon repeatedly refused to bend the knee when Dany asked him. He did not bend the knee until Dany saved him and lost a dragon for her kind gesture. She then decided to go to WF with him without asking again. He bent the knee because he saw Dany worthy in his eyes, especially as someone who wants to rule and is willing to put herself on the field and beside her people.

I think the issue is that he didn’t consult Sansa and the North about his decision. But, it was completely logical and not based off of feelings.

Jon almost always chooses duty over love. I’m not understanding the narrative of Jon bending the knee to Dany or doing anything being influenced by love. It does such a disservice to his character because, despite struggling with his decision, he almost always chooses duty over love. It just so happens he fell in love with Dany at the same time, but his decision wasn’t influenced by his feelings and we all know that. 

I do not know that, Sansa asked him directly and he didn't deny it. 

I have always thought he did it to soothe Dany for the lost of Viseryon. 

Strategically I think it harmed Dany instead of helping her. If Jon was still the KITN and they were allies it would have resonated with the North much more. They wouldn't see her as a threat but as an Allied and once she and her armies and dragons would have defeated the WW then I am sure that their gratitude would have made them willing to join her anyway. 

Let's not forget that Daenerys had Jon at Dragonstone for months as "a guest", for months Jon wasn't sure if she was going to help him or not, he should have explore other option (like wildfire) in the event she never helped. During those months she constantly asked him to bend the knee. If his rational reasons were that the wealth of his people were at stake and they needed her armies and dragons no matter what, then he lost precious months. He should have bent the knee as soon as he got there and get the plan moving as far as mobilizing troops and supplies needed for the war. 

 It just so happens that he fell in love with her as this happened? uhmmm mighty coincidental if you ask me, specially when he "bend the knee" when he was half naked in bed while she was rubbing his hand. 

There is nothing wrong with Jon falling in love with her, matter of fact I don't begrudge him any bit of happiness he can get. As a man, he has suffered enough and I hope at the end of this he gets to walk away with the NK's head and the girl, but right now without knowing the outcome of the war to come I just can't help but think that Jon is stubborn and emotional and sometimes he fails to communicate his decision to others in a way that can help him win them to his side. Honesty my problem is not with him bending the knee if he thought that was the only option to secure her help, my problem was that he didn't negotiate anything for his people for after the war, he probably think that nothing matters but to the northern people who have suffered enough it does matter. 

[bubble sparkly]

It kind of seems like the Northerners picked Jon as their leader because someone (Glover?) was trying to suck up to Jon and cover his ass after the Boltons lost the BotB, and the rest fell into line. In s5 and 6 the Northerners didn’t care that Ramsay was abusing Sansa and they didn’t support the Starks in trying to take back WF (apart from Lyanna Mormont). The North decided to support the Boltons as Wardens and accept Cersei as their Queen. They most certainly gave zero fucks about the Starks.

After the North made Jon leader it took them about 30 seconds to turn on him after he left for Dragonstone. They are a fickle bunch and why anyone actually wants to be in charge of these morons is beyond me. If Sansa ever gets her wish to be the boss they will turn on her in a hot minute too.

[tangerine95]

9 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

It kind of seems like the Northerners picked Jon as their leader because someone (Glover?) was trying to suck up to Jon and cover his ass after the Boltons lost the BotB, and the rest fell into line. In s5 and 6 the Northerners didn’t care that Ramsay was abusing Sansa and they didn’t support the Starks in trying to take back WF (apart from Lyanna Mormont). The North decided to support the Boltons as Wardens and accept Cersei as their Queen. They most certainly gave zero fucks about the Starks.

After the North made Jon leader it took them about 30 seconds to turn on him after he left for Dragonstone. They are a fickle bunch and why anyone actually wants to be in charge of these morons is beyond me. If Sansa ever gets her wish to be the boss they will turn on her in a hot minute too.

Yeah I get the feeling like they chose him after a big military victory but don't actually respect him.The way they talked to him,I just can't imagine any other ruler sitting by while a kid calls him nothing and the rest basically cheer behind her.Maybe it's because he's a bastard and that stigma still stayed even when he was named king.

[AnnaL]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

My hunch is Bran probably has seen enough glimpses of the future that he knows certain things happen, but he has to wait until closer to the actual events to have context. 

That's probably the case with why Bran told Sam it was time to tell Jon the truth. Something he caught in the glimpse of the future was a clue that it was near at hand and it was time to say something; maybe the way Sam was so clearly upset for example.

I agree with you there. I see Bran as a character who is in front of a chess board. 

He knows that in order to win he need certain players properly positioned: he insisted that Daenerys and her dragons were necessary , than Jon needed to be there, he is probably going to make a case for Jaime being there. He probably already knows that southern troops are not coming but he can care less because they are not part of the game plan and he has known they were not coming anyway. 

What exasperates me with Bran is the fact that he has all this information but the delivery of it sucks. He probably knew ahead of time that Cersei was never going to accept a truce, wouldn't it had been wonderful that he sent a raven to Jon letting him know this, they wouldn't have had to bother to get a WW and lose a dragon. Bran could have let Sam know since the beginning what happened to his father and brother, giving him enough time to process the idea and get some resignation. Bran could let everybody know that Tyrion is plotting something (I am convinced he is) and the troops from the south are not coming. 

I am not sure if he is not allowed to say something if not asked, or if he is only dropping bits of information at an specific time for more effect. I just think that if he could see into the future, knows that WF will be obliterated and hasn't let everybody know so they can evacuate somewhere else with plenty of time I am going to be mad. 

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Sansa doesn't know when to keep her mouth shut. Why exactly is the North so convinced it MUST be a Stark in place as Warden? 

I disliked Sansa in S1 when she chose Joffrey over her family, but I grew to appreciate her during her time in KL and the Vale.  She's a slow learner, but she's learning.  My favorite moment of hers was sniffing out Littlefinger (to this day, I will end random questions with a pause and ....Lord Baelish?) though I thought it exposed how un-Northern Sansa is (or has become) despite her best efforts.

One of Ned's principles was that the one who passes the sentence "should swing the sword" unlike the southern houses/Lannisters who used executioners.  Sansa sentenced Baelish and Ramsay to die, and didn't swing the sword. 

10 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

The way they talked to him,I just can't imagine any other ruler sitting by while a kid calls him nothing and the rest basically cheer behind her.

That wasn't a kid.  That was Lady Lyanna Mormont of Bear Island, First of her Name, Thrower of Shade and Kicker of Asses.

[Gummo]

6 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I get the feeling like they chose him after a big military victory but don't actually respect him.The way they talked to him,I just can't imagine any other ruler sitting by while a kid calls him nothing and the rest basically cheer behind her.Maybe it's because he's a bastard and that stigma still stayed even when he was named king.

They have good reason to nor respect or trust Jon, he's got a lousy track record as a  leader:

His first leadership role was Leader of the Night's Watch -- some of his men murdered him, that's how much they trusted his leadership.

His near-disastrous leadership in the Battle of the Bastards has already been discussed at length.

When the Northmen acclaimed Jon King of the North, he immediately left for months, then returned having given up his title to follow a foreigner who was a descendant of the hated Mad King ... without consulting anyone.

He comes back and just expects everyone to accept and support his actions, including Sansa, who's been working hard at keeping the North in line during his absence. I don't blame her for being pissed, she was holding Winterfell for the King of the North, not for the Consort to the Queen. 

In other words, every time Jon's been in charge, he's either failed or had to be saved by someone else (sometimes by magical means). Jon's a noble warrior and a good man, but he's a LOUSY leader.

[Efzee]

3 hours ago, terrymct said:

The first episode she appeared in she definitely had some older dudes there advising her.  At one point, she signals to one of them to back off that she has this.

Which is why referred to her other appearances. We were only shown her "council" on Bear Island, yet she consistently has made statements and even "crowned" the King in the North without checking in with them. 

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, Efzee said:

Which is why referred to her other appearances. We were only shown her "council" on Bear Island, yet she consistently has made statements and even "crowned" the King in the North without checking in with them. 

Not a council.  A Maester and a Master at Arms... neither of whom she has to check in with.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Drogo
Made JPG.

[tangerine95]

18 minutes ago, Gummo said:

They have good reason to nor respect or trust Jon, he's got a lousy track record as a  leader:

His first leadership role was Leader of the Night's Watch -- some of his men murdered him, that's how much they trusted his leadership.

His near-disastrous leadership in the Battle of the Bastards has already been discussed at length.

When the Northmen acclaimed Jon King of the North, he immediately left for months, then returned having given up his title to follow a foreigner who was a descendant of the hated Mad King ... without consulting anyone.

He comes back and just expects everyone to accept and support his actions, including Sansa, who's been working hard at keeping the North in line during his absence. I don't blame her for being pissed, she was holding Winterfell for the King of the North, not for the Consort to the Queen. 

In other words, every time Jon's been in charge, he's either failed or had to be saved by someone else (sometimes by magical means). Jon's a noble warrior and a good man, but he's a LOUSY leader.

He brought back 2 dragons and two huge armies giving them a chance for survival.I wouldn't call that a failure in any way.They knew he was lord commander before and that he left even if they don't know the full story and still chose him.They saw his action in the battle of the bastards and didn't have any issues with it,they even proclaimed him the White Wolf who avenged the red wedding.

[taanja]

19 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Well, things can change for people when a few years are removed. But, in the case of Arya and Gendry, you have to rewatch their scenes for a refresher. Arya is clearly ogling his body during a scene where he is shirtless. That doesn’t mean she has all of the feelings in the world for  him, but that something, physically at least, is doing it for her. There is no other way to read that scene.

Gendry, for his part, never shows his hand, but shows that he understands the delicate ness of the situation. Arya tells him to stay and that she can be his family (she’s not referring to a brother like thing, but definitely not boyfriend—she’s unable to comprehend the complexities of her request) and Gendry tells her that she wouldn’t be his family, she’d be his lady. 

There was never romance, but there was moments where Arya had a crush and Gendry doesn’t give away much because 1. Age difference 2. Class difference 3. Social norms that he understands and Arya doesn’t.

The scene doesn’t come out of no where, it’s built upon their past interaction. For example, the”m’lady” conversation. When Gendry found out she came from a “ruling” house, he cracked jokes about it, but never saw her any differently, which Arya appreciated/s. When he sees her again, he makes the same joke as if she’s the same person, but to him, she is and always will be. 

And Arya always has to give him shit, which the “you don’t know any other rich girls” comes in.

Their way of joking around in the past has evolved into their way of flirting now.

I have watched the series from beginning to end several times... especially any and all Arya scenes.

In my perception of Arya' and Gendry's relationship -- it WAS like brother/sister.

When Arya says stay and be my family -- I took it to mean like siblings. At this point in the story -- she had basically lost her real family. She felt alone in the world.

 I never picked up on any sort of romantic vibe-- and besides--- the characters haven't laid eyes on one another in years. So that's why the sudden flirting and pointed looks took me out of the scene.