S14.E18: Absence

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean isn't being (and won't be) played as the hero. He is getting a thourough hate-wave right now and daring to hurt previous Nougat will make that ten times worse. 

You mean precious Jack who killed their mother? From what SueB said, Sam has already voiced the "Dean was right" edict, so either Dean is right, or Sam will be wrong for saying so.

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

After all, even new sainted Mary never hat anything good to say to him either. 

Taken to "Bitch vs Jerk" just to be safe.

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

  They sure hit us over the head with Mary is DEAD, like Really Most Sincerely Dead, in a locked ward of heaven no one can enter, vaporized, no body, empty shell, not coming back....ever....no really not ever.

The June Cleaver retcon was sooo over the top complete with sappy violin music.  I suppose it was worth the waste of a precious episode to be done with Mary.  It was a mistake they have been trying to fix almost from the get.  Glad it's over.

They should have had John Cleese come in and say “'She’s passed on! This Mary is no more! She has ceased to be! She’s expired and gone to meet ‘er maker! She’s a stiff! Bereft of life, She rests in peace! 'Er metabolic processes are now 'istory! She’s off the twig! She’s kicked the bucket, She’s shuffled off 'er mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-MARY!!

[sigmaforce86]

I never hated Mary but I also didn't realize how I felt about the character until last night - I think the episode was supposed to tug at our hearts and make us gasp in horror and sympathy that the boys lost another parent and that Jack was involved.  Instead the only thing I felt was curiosity, not even suspense just curious for one question; is she really dead.  When the end came it was like "Oh guess she is truly dead, sucks for the actress being out of a job now oh well".   Should have felt more but just didn't.

As for Jack - I was on team Jack, wanted to like him wanted him to fit in with Sam and Dean maybe become the true third brother that Adam could/should have been.  Sort of over that now, too much focus on Jack too much angst over his soul and powers it's sucking up the energy that should be going into Sam and Dean and even Cas with, if not a full focus on the two main characters at minimum a balanced story between the four.  Somehow though our boys have taken the role of backseat babysitters in the Jack show.

I have no spoilers so this is just me but my hope now is they DO kill Jack (really kill just like Mary is truly dead) at the end of the season or knowing next season is the last in the first few episodes of S15.  My favorite choice for how to do this would be a deal where Jack gets Cas out of his deal by takes Cas' place in the empty.  Clear off that little plot line and have Cas free and clear to stick with the boys to the end.  I'd rather see the final be those three hunting and any story arc one that makes sense and focuses on them fully instead of sidelining them as mentors and babysitters to Jack and a bloated cast of extra hunters (mostly dead now anyway).  Oh and Rowena and Bobby can stick around to the end too, Bobby because he's been there from the beginning and deserves it and Rowena because she's too much fun to get rid of.

[PAForrest]

Ding dong the witch is ...

You know what, the bitch doesn't even deserve the song, at least not sung out loud.

But I guess in some physical way Jack both cornfielded her and killed her. Will we see Mary again? Undoubtedly.

All those fake flashbacks attempting to sanctify her cold black heart, though - all of which I had to FF through because, to paraphrase Dean, I was out of bile - just proved how much the producers knew they had thoroughly failed with this character.

And yet, Dean still didn't even warrant a fake flashback, not really. Gotta give it to the Dabbernatural regime - they were steadfast to the end in their whiteboard agenda to not have Mary expend a single kind word of praise to her, supposed, eldest son. And fake passing out and inadvertently flopping on Dean's shoulder as a pillow doesn't count as a pretense of affection.

Yet Dean will mourn her black heart the most, because that's his thankless role as one of the saddest most put upon characters in the history of fiction.

On the upside, there is a ton of fan fiction potential to try and explain how Dean isn't really Mary's son, and that's why she never loved him. No, he's her Jon Snow. Just have to come up with when and how that happened. To the keyboards!

Apparently Pellegrino's crossroad's deal remains intact. He had 10 more years on this show in one lame capacity or another, real or imagined. But thankfully, because the dog is being put down, the deal will expire sooner than he was promised. So, yay.

You really think they're going to cast Nougat as the Beige Bad? Please, the guys were already backtracking on that before the end of the episode, were already making up excuses. Then again, IMO, he did them all a favor anyway.

The table is defiled. They should burn it too.

I guess Rowena is truly Glinda the Good Witch now.

Edited April 12, 2019 by PAForrest
Addition

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Can someone explain to me when Sam dumped Jack on Cas? Did I miss an episode??

I remember Cas dumping Jack on Dean.

21 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Add the fact that some of them might have been filmed in advance or at least at a different time (i.e. Sam's grief beard) makes it that much more glaring that they couldn't fit a good (dialogue) scene for Dean around mardi gras.

Berens even admitted they made up one for Cas. 

Although I suppose we should be grateful that Mary wasn't conscious.  At least Dean didn't have to degrade himself again to make Mary feel better. 

It's like this whole time, Dean was the parent and Mary was the child.  It reminds me of what Jensen said at comic con when Mary first came back how she was just going to be someone else Dean had to worry about and take care of.

It's like he saw the writing on the wall from the minute she came back.

[Wateroflife]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean isn't being (and won't be) played as the hero. He is getting a thourough hate-wave right now and daring to hurt previous Nougat will make that ten times worse. 

After all, even new sainted Mary never hat anything good to say to him either.   

Hmm, I'm not sure about this. I thought the reason the writers had Michael abandon Dean and unnecessarily possess Rowena, was so that Dean's hero image wouldn't be tarnished by in anyway facilitating the murder of the AU hunters. They were doing that all season with the Michael!Dean storyline. Why would they just make him the bad guy now? I would love Dean to do it, I just don't think the writers have the courage.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You mean precious Jack who killed their mother? From what SueB said, Sam has already voiced the "Dean was right" edict, so either Dean is right, or Sam will be wrong for saying so.

"Dean was right" didn't even last the rest of the scene.

[MysteryGuest]

I liked the episode, and I'm sorry they killed her off and left us with Lucifer still.  Yes, it was sappy, but that really isn't anything new for this show.  I think it was a fitting send off for the Mary that Sam and Dean knew and loved.  That the show could never quite get it right doesn't alter the fact that they loved their mother, faults and all, and she loved them.  

I also thought it was healthy that each of them ended up owning some of the responsibility for Jack.  Cas may not have gotten an apology from Dean, but I don't think he really expects one.  Dean has already moved passed blaming Cas.  He listened to Sam try to blame himself, and then he acknowledged that he was also to blame.  They all knew that Jack wasn't "right", but didn't quite know what to do with that information.  

I really enjoy seeing Rowena as an ally to the Winchesters, so I'm sure they'll be killing her off again next.  

I'm not happy with Jack as the bad guy.  We'll see if they go there full stop, or whether they find some way to restore his soul.  I truly hope that next season isn't going to be just the boys now trying to save the world from evil Jack.  I really would like something more interesting for their final season.  Something exciting and completely different.  What have they got to lose?  

[Castiels Cat]

Anyone else think that Jack is going to resurrect all of the dead angels?

Rowena said that a nephilim needs both parts... grace and soul. We saw what happens without his soul. His body died because he was unstable.

Without a soul he will be equally unstable except it is his angelic energy that is suffering. By resurrecting all of the Angel's he will likely go supernova or something...

It might not come to a mano a mano moment.

Hopefully he goes nuclear in the Empty.

Not sure what the "Lucifer" manifestation is. 

Since he absorbed Michael's grace I tend to think it is a remnant of Michael appearing as Lucifer toying with him. I do not know why someone without a soul would have a conscience. Someone not possessed by Lucifer should not have Halucinations. Lucifer should not be able to communicate from the Empty and he did not attempt to convince Jack to resurrect Nick or open the doorway at all. The patter to me seemed most like Michael's mind games. He may be dead however his grace may have established a communication pathway.

IDK. 

I still think Dean's fate is on track. The promo suggests Jack is with the angels and they want him to help heaven. Ergo he will use his powers to resurrect the dead Angels in the Empty.

[Castiels Cat]

I liked Mary. She was flawed like any Winchester. I liked that she did not wear an apron or feel the need to coddle adult men. I liked that they treated her like a character that had her own story and her own agenda rather than a sidepiece.

I loved Rowena in this episode. 

My God are they just going to let Nick rot. That shows you how messed up they are.

Season 13 was all about Dean losing it over losing his mother again and making very poor choices, reckless choices to get her back. He has lost her again. He is all kinds of messed up. This tracks back to a tragic life shattering loss of family at 4. Sob.

[Wateroflife]

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I liked Mary. She was flawed like any Winchester. I liked that she did not wear an apron or feel the need to coddle adult men. I liked that they treated her like a character that had her own story and her own agenda rather than a sidepiece.

I liked the concept of Mary 2.0 also, but I think the writers failed big time on the execution. There was way too much tell versus show, both in her "amazing" hunting skills and her relationship with her sons. They just didn't really know what to do with her for much of seasons 13 and 14. And what they did do with her in season 12 was mostly awful. She could have been a really interesting addition to the show as conceived. What a waste. As it is, I'm glad she's gone 

[Bergamot]

11 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

LIKES:

- the entire first part that grew in tension as the boys went from concerned to worried to panicked.

I actually didn't mind this part of the episode -- it worked for me. (Except I have to admit that ironically, while Dean and Sam were afraid that Mary was dead, I was afraid that they would find Mary was still alive!)
 
It was the flashbacks that were the problem. It's like Aeryn13 said: 

12 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They wrote the character one way and now are too cowardly to stand by it.

I mean, they all but admitted lately that the character came across as cold and self-centered, that she had failed to connect with her sons or to be there for them, but the writers didn't even have the guts to stand by what they had done with Mary. Instead they tried to weasel their way out of it by pretending now that it wasn't really like that.

The Cas flashback was bad enough, although I don't really remember Cas feeling any closeness to Mary, or even being interested in her beyond the fact that she was important to Dean and Sam. When exactly did Cas and Mary go hunting together, anyway, and share their heartwarming moment? That scene supposedly happened soon after she returned, but I can't recall when it could have occurred.

The next flashback is easy to place in time, of course, since it happened while Dean was first possessed. At least now we know how much anxiety Mary really felt for Dean during that time. She certainly wasn't working herself to exhaustion to try to find him, or losing any sleep over his absence, was she? Look at how much fun she was having with Jack! Look at her sunny smile! Look at how happy she was to be with her two beloved sons, Sam and Jack! It's all okay, because she has found a way to excuse any guilt feelings -- as she explains to Sam, she is just "complicated". Sure Mary. Aren't we all.

I think that if they were going to give us flashbacks of Mary, they should have showed us the characters remembering scenes that actually occurred on the show. Cas could have flashed back to when she lied to and used them all, in order to steal the Colt from Ramiel for the BMoL. And she wouldn't give it up or say a word even when her sons were seconds away from being killed for it, while Cas himself almost died. Talk about a heartwarming moment!

Dean and Sam could flash back to that time when they risked everything to find her in the AU, to the point that they died (Sam) or lost their brother (Dean). They could remember how she told them she wasn't going back with them, because the AU hunters were just too important to her, and she could not leave them when they needed her (meanwhile disregarding Dean's desperate plea that he and Sam needed her.)

I could think of some more, but these are a couple moments that I personally flashed back to during the search for Mary. And yes, it was very telling that the show had to make up some stuff now in order for the characters to remember her fondly, because they didn't bother to do it all along.

[Katy M]

I'm hoping it's finally time for Jack to go full dark-side and not just get a Winchester speech and be all good again.  But, I know that's entirely too much to hope for.

Besides the snake snuff, Cas didn't have any real intel that Sam and Dean didn't have.  They were all wary of him.  So, they're all equally to blame, if anyone is.  but, really Jack killing Mary is all on Jack.  And maybe a bit on Mary since she didn't leave him alone, but that's probably a bit too much blame the victim, so I'll go back to Jack.

I don't even think Rowena's second life chip, or whatever she has under her skin, would have saved her from what Jack did to Mary.

But, the thing that really, really, really, really annoyed me about this episode was that it sealed the fact that Sam and Dean are incapable of learning.  and, that they are a tad bit hpyocritcal.  That actually might not be the right word I want, but I can't think of a better one.  Dean said that they always bring back family.  Tell that to John, Bobby, Jessica, Adam, Kevin, and Charlie.  There's really no excuse for Charlie because she should have been an easypeasy bring back but they didn't even ask Cas if he'd mind. But, more importantly, the last time they brought someon back it was Jack. Look how well that went.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

+1 to your list of hypocrisy I guess: They've already shown Dean to really lose it when it comes to Mary so it might not be a stretch but I also didn't like how quickly he jumped to using the book of the damned (yet another thing that went swimmingly last time), despite past experience and always, always, having been against using it (and the fact that Sam also didn't have much to say against that idea).

I knew I was forgetting something. Yes.  We were told that with the Book of the Damned, every time you remove a curse (and Rowena called death a curse), another curse is placed, to keep the universe in balance or whatever. 

I'm not entirely convinced that all Jack did was bring back Mary's shell. He may have brought back something we can't see.  But, that would actually be interesting and a logical consequence, so probably not.

11 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

am also not entirely sure they have kept track of the locations of, and remember the differences between, the book of the damned and the black grimoire: at least in this case the multiple sources/codexes she had open plus all Rowena's talk of curses is consistent with the book of the damned. 

The last time I'm sure the Book of the Damned was used was in The Bad Seed.  I'm not sure if Rowena was able to make off with it or not.  Or, if it's been used since.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I knew I was forgetting something. Yes.  We were told that with the Book of the Damned, every time you remove a curse (and Rowena called death a curse), another curse is placed, to keep the universe in balance or whatever. 

There is no canon anymore.  That means nothing. 

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm not entirely convinced that all Jack did was bring back Mary's shell. He may have brought back something we can't see.  But, that would actually be interesting and a logical consequence, so probably not.

If Jack did bring someone back then I think its obvious who he brought back.   Not a spoiler just based on how the writers are bending over backwards to keep him around.

[Katy M]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

If Jack did bring someone back then I think its obvious who he brought back.   Not a spoiler just based on how the writers are bending over backwards to keep him around.

It just seems like Mary's shell was much ado about nothing with Rowena going on and on and on about how if they didn't stop him something terrible would happen.  But, then I remember how Billie said that something terrible would happen if they didn't honor their deal, and unless nothing is her definition of terrible, she's a big fat liarhead.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

It just seems like Mary's shell was much ado about nothing with Rowena going on and on and on about how if they didn't stop him something terrible would happen.  But, then I remember how Billie said that something terrible would happen if they didn't honor their deal, and unless nothing is her definition of terrible, she's a big fat liarhead.

I think this has to do more with the writers not talking to each other, dropping plots and faliling to follow through on most things.   I remember when Dabb was asked about Cas's deal, I swear from Dabb's answer it sounded like he had no clue what the question was about.

But since I don't believe for one minute Nick/Lucifer is going to remain dead, I think this is one thing, sadly, they will follow up on.

[Casseiopeia]

So Berens tweeted this last night...it was deliberate so I wonder what it means.

[Aeryn13]

I`d say it was that they wasted an entire episode basically pulling a J.K. Rowling with Mary but I`m sure more nonsense is coming.  

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So Berens tweeted this last night...it was deliberate so I wonder what it means.

I think it just means that the flashback was made up and that Cas and Mary never went on  a hunt.

It seems they are now bragging that canon means nothing.

[Casseiopeia]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think it just means that the flashback was made up and that Cas and Mary never went on  a hunt.

It seems they are now bragging that canon means nothing.

Maybe but it was deliberate so maybe the fabric of the universe has started to unravel?

[MysteryGuest]

Didn't Mary hunt with Cas briefly when Sam and Dean were being held by the Secret Service, or whoever they were?  I know that she ended up cleaning up a hunt after him, but I thought they had hunted together during that time?

Edited April 12, 2019 by MysteryGuest

[Bergamot]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think it just means that the flashback was made up and that Cas and Mary never went on  a hunt.

Okay then. I was wondering about that myself. I couldn't figure out when that could have happened.

14 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Maybe but it was deliberate so maybe the fabric of the universe has started to unravel?

Well, that would certainly be convenient for the show's writers. If something doesn't make any sense in regard to what we have previously seen on the show, they can say, "Oh, it's just that thing with the fabric of the universe coming apart!"

Sorry, Casseiopeia, I didn't mean to sound so sarcastic (and if true it could possibly be a very interesting story), but I tend to think it is just the writer being cute about how lazy he was in regard to canon.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Bergamot

[Bergamot]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Didn't Mary hunt with Cas briefly when Sam and Dean were being held the the Secret Service, or whoever they were? 

I think this was supposed to be earlier than that -- soon after she returned. Also, why would she say, "The boys are waiting for us"? And why would she and Cas be hunting vampires then anyway, instead of searching for Dean and Sam?

Edited April 12, 2019 by Bergamot

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Nah that would make way too much sense for these writers - and for some reason they probably wanted to show off her initial wariness of angels for extra feels and needed an earlier date to feasibly do that.

I just figured they showed us some scenes we hadn't actually witnessed the first time around, like the scene with Dean where she falls asleep on his shoulder.  It's not as if they need to leave us these little hidden easter eggs.  They're perfectly capable of just making shit up as they go.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

I think this was supposed to be earlier than that -- soon after she returned. Also, why would she say, "The boys are waiting for us"? And why would she and Cas be hunting vampires then anyway, instead of searching for Dean and Sam?

I get now that it was supposed to be earlier, before Mary was used to Cas, but they actually did go on hunts during those 6 weeks (or however long it was) that Sam and Dean were gone.  They really had no idea where to search, so they manned the Bunker and went on hunts.

[Bergamot]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I get now that it was supposed to be earlier, before Mary was used to Cas, but they actually did go on hunts during those 6 weeks (or however long it was) that Sam and Dean were gone.  They really had no idea where to search, so they manned the Bunker and went on hunts.

Okay. But anyway, it was the writer himself who said it was an error. Personally I am way past the point of making excuses for this writing staff. I don't like that he knew it didn't fit but apparently didn't care.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Bergamot

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Then again, why did Mary say the boys were waiting for them? Anyway, it was the writer himself who said it was an error. Personally I am way past the point of making excuses for this writing staff.

I think you're misunderstanding me.  I realize now that because Mary said "they boys are waiting for us", this memorex hunt couldn't have been from the time when she and Cas did hunt while the boys were being held captive.  That, and the fact that she was wary of Cas definitely indicates that it was supposed to have taken place in the early days of her return.  I didn't really pick up on that when I watched the first time and just assumed it was from the other time period.

Regardless, I think in this particular instance, they were just making up some memories for Cas to have of Mary, since we never really saw them spend much time together.  Everyone else was having those nice flashbacks, so they wanted Cas to have some too, in order to show just how Mary touched all of their lives.  I agree that it was bullshit, since the writers never allowed Mary to show much affection toward any of them for some reason, even though I think we were supposed to believe that they were good with each other after the missteps in the beginning with the BMOL.  

As with most real issues on this show, it all comes down to poor writing.  

Edited April 12, 2019 by MysteryGuest

[SueB]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think it just means that the flashback was made up and that Cas and Mary never went on  a hunt.

It seems they are now bragging that canon means nothing.

Berens acknowledges they intentionally ignored canon (a deliberate flaw).  If it's a 'flaw' then it's still not right.  Which means they have not decided canon means 'nothing'.  

He later states there is no follow-up.

Basically, they wanted a Cas/Mary scene.  They put one in even though Mary hadn't hunted alone with Cas before the boys were sent to lockup.  The timing of 'angels are new' suggests this happened before Mary went on her walk-about early in S12.  There was no such hunt.

So, in order to show a relationship with each person -- they put in that scene.  The question you have to ask yourself is why did they want this particular scene.  What were they trying to show that it was worth a deliberate flaw (canon violation).  In this case what were the key elements:
- Mary eats after hunting ... something that was also mentioned in the episode.  Not sure why that was a big deal.  But it did show Mary was not a shrinking violet when it came to injury.
- Mary didn't trust the angelic assistance (this is before she went to AU world).  Reasonable, provides a little backstory on how she obviously ultimately came to trust Cas.
- Mary says "the boys were never alone." BINGO.  That is what I think the point of the scene was.  What is she talking about?  I think the most straightforward answer is that the conversation with Cas is how she came to realize that Cas was the embodiment of the sentiment she had for years - i.e. 'angels are watching over you'. In short it's a pro-Cas compliment and the vulnerability/tenderness shown in that scene was supposed to mean that Mary 'got' Cas during that conversation.  

The only residual impact, IMO, is that Mary saying Cas was looking out for the boys is another indication that Dean's temporary anger with Cas will not stand.  It was already fading during the episode.  It'll be fixed sooner rather than later, I think.  

[Bergamot]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think you're misunderstanding me.

Yes, I'm sorry. I was reading too fast.

[Lastcall]

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Okay. But anyway, it was the writer himself who said it was an error. Personally I am way past the point of making excuses for this writing staff.

Yeah it’s hard to head canon incompetence and total disregard for continuity. Still closest thing that makes sense to me is right before she went for the Colt. She was still feeling out the BMOL, she had spent time with Cas and maybe she decided later on to let him heal her. Still makes Mary look horrible though, right after saying he’s family she almost gets him killed.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Sorry, Casseiopeia, I didn't mean to sound so sarcastic (and if true it could possibly be a very interesting story), but I tend to think it is just the writer being cute about how lazy he was in regard to canon.

That's okay I made a similar comment earlier.  When Dabb introduces a new character with new lore he never misses an opportunity to make up and destroy canon.

[Jonesy]

Since I don't have big hate for Mary or Jack OR some yearning for Dean/Michael I had zero grudges against this episode.  J2M all were strong in portraying the emotions...the burning of Mary scene brought the episode together well.  I'm fine with Mary gone--overdue imo but she was fine as a flawed mother.  And Jackie boy is a fine character but in NO WAY is the show about him it's still clearly about the boys with a side of Cas.  Also liked that Dean's anger against Cas started to fade and wasn't dragged on for angst.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Jakes

[S Cook Productions]

4 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So Berens tweeted this last night...it was deliberate so I wonder what it means.

I noticed the tie...but why was it deliberate?

Just now, S Cook Productions said:

I noticed the tie...but why was it deliberate?

If it happened right after Mary got back, it would have been the striped tie. It did bother me a bit.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

I noticed the tie...but why was it deliberate?

If it happened right after Mary got back, it would have been the striped tie. It did bother me a bit.

See my longwinded explanation 5 posts up above to answer your question from my POV

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

I noticed the tie...but why was it deliberate?

If it happened right after Mary got back, it would have been the striped tie. It did bother me a bit.

It wasn't the tie it was the fact that Mary and Cas were on a hunt together.  This flashback took place shortly after Mary arrived from heaven.  She and Cas hadn't been on a hunt during that period. She took off in the third episode and then joined up with the BMOL's.  Hence the possible tear in the fabric of time or reality.

[Latverian Diplomat]

20 hours ago, SueB said:

I’m grateful they gave her a long goodbye in this episode.  And I’m so very very glad that Cas was able to peek into her Heaven and see she’s happy and with John.  That was kind of Duma to let him see.  

- Cas’s little memory was sweet.  I’m glad they gave us that insight.  And Cas is just one big ball of pain right now.  So glad he got the closure information on Mary’s Heaven.  

19 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

- It being confirmed that Mary is indeed in Heaven. Where she is staying.

I agree that the Cas/Mary flashback was good, and  in fact, it was the only one that really worked for me.

I guess I have a suspicious nature though, I thought Cas was lying about what he saw in Heaven, that maybe Mary's Heaven was empty, because Jack completely annihilated her. He didn't have the heart to tell Dean and Sam this.

I mean there was a door there, and no reason for Heaven to lie about her fate, but as previously established, the angels are not super competent and also have staffing problems. Maybe nobody but Cas actually checked?

That's pretty dark, I admit.

[missbonnie]

21 hours ago, trudysmom said:

 I'm more annoyed by Mark Pellegrino on my tv than anything.  My lord why won't he go away?

So much THIS! I just want him off my tv screen forever. I don't get the love for this dude. 

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

There is no canon anymore.  That means nothing. 

If Jack did bring someone back then I think its obvious who he brought back.   Not a spoiler just based on how the writers are bending over backwards to keep him around.

He was nearby and he won't be pretty. 

There was also the twitter shot Jensen posted with what appeared to be ...

Deleted because I don't know how to do a spoiler tag.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

42 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He was nearby and he won't be pretty. 

There was also the twitter shot Jensen posted posting with what appeared to be ...

Deleted because I don't know how to do a spoiler tag. If you saw the tweet you know...

[ILoveReading]

Ignoring the fact that the scene of Sam looking at the photos  and drinking was an exact repeat of Dean looking at the photos and drinking when Mary first came back, why did Sam have that photo of Dean and Mary.

Ketch stole it.  He should have burned with the Men of Letters bunker.  I doubt Ketch returned it.

Yet another thing the writers missed.

[Dobian]

I'm glad they permadeathed her.  I got so tired of people dying on this show and coming back, it cheapens death.  I don't get Cas' obsession with bringing her back to life, though.  He's an angel, he knows she's in Heaven.  She will live in paradise forever.  Her sons will be up there with her in fifty years at most, and probably a lot sooner given their lifestyle.  Your loved ones die, you just deal with it.

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm hoping it's finally time for Jack to go full dark-side and not just get a Winchester speech and be all good again.  But, I know that's entirely too much to hope for.

I wouldn't call it dark side, he's just a force of nature without his soul, not good or evil.  He's like a walking hurricane.  Dangerous, sure.  I like Jack, I'll feel bad if things end badly for him.

[bethy]

It seems to me that they basically decided to make Dean Mary's parent. The few scenes we've had between just the two them have tended to focus on Dean as a caretaker of sorts (because we all know Mary isn't going to be the caretaker for him - she's not some stay-at-home mom who cooks and cleans, dammit!): he's comforting her, or cooking for her, or smiling indulgently at her falling asleep on his shoulder. If they'd gone with a younger actress for Mary that might have worked for me, showing more visually the difference in their current ages, and it would have leaned into Dean as the one who takes on those around him. I think that would have made Mary's confusion and withdrawal from her grown, older-than-her sons more understandable and the character more sympathetic to me. 

As it was, Mary with her head on Dean's shoulder just seemed odd. 

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He was nearby and he won't be pretty. 

There was also the twitter shot Jensen posted posting with what appeared to be ...

Deleted because I don't know how to do a spoiler tag. If you saw the tweet you know...

I know what you are talking about. Post your comment in the Spoiler thread.  It will be an amazing season finale if they can pull it off. 

[Jediknight]

11 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

I mean there was a door there, and no reason for Heaven to lie about her fate, but as previously established, the angels are not super competent and also have staffing problems. Maybe nobody but Cas actually checked?

That's pretty dark, I admit.

I've seen speculation that Heaven does have a reason to lie.  And the speculation is that Heaven, under Naomi's watch, are the ones that actually killed Mary, not Jack.  They were not too welcoming of Cas, and it did take them a bit longer than usual to answer.  It's obvious somebody was talking to Jack before Mary died, somebody was in his head, I don't think he was telling Mary to "Shut up" and to leave him alone.

Heaven needs Jack with them, and as long as Jack is tied to the Winchesters, he won't join Heaven.  So they killed Mary to break the Winchesters and Jack up.

Important to note that Jack didn't kill Rowena, and wouldn't stop trying to bring back Mary.  I don't think Jack's gone full dark.  Something else is at play.

[S Cook Productions]

9 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

the funniest thing about that twitter thread is peoples replies pointing out flaws which weren't the one he was talking about lol

I don’t have Twitter. Did anyone mention the tie? I really think that was a flaw. Back in season 12 when she came back, he had the old tie. He didn’t get this new blue (replica of old OLD one) until the Empty brought him back in season 13. It bothered me upon first watch before Bobo even said anything lol. I’m a continuity nerd. 

[S Cook Productions]

2 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

He literally just meant that there's no evidence for Castiel & Mary having time to go on a hunt as early on as he wanted to place it.

A lot of people did mentioned the tie and trenchcoat tho 😂 


Some people mentioned Mary's shorter hair and the wedding ring on a chain which happened in 12.03 (because either the wardrobe is wrong and it happened before she left, or the time is wrong and it happened after). But i think he intended for this scene to happen just after 12.03 with Castiel working with her at some point after she bailed. -Except that he bailed before her, and between 12.03 and 12.08 he was working with Crowley nonstop to find lucifer (if he was mentioned at all) and she definitely only meets Crowley for the first time in 12.12.

I guess he thought it would be weird if she was still too wary of Angels by 12.09 when they do get together, but still wanted to make it a ~thing~ to increase the feels of having been offed by one *shrug*

Thank you! Interesting! 😃👏🏼

[ILoveReading]

🤣

[DeeDee79]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Dean needs to own it.  Only then will I feel bad that he lost his mom. 

No! Sam and Cas need to own it for bitching at Dean relentlessly until he decided not to go through with it because they kept telling him he was selfish and suicidal. He knew what the outcome would be but he was badgered into changing his mind. The death of the AU hunters is hardly on Dean IMO.

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

🤣

This is hilarious!

[juppschmitz]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

🤣

I've always said it - he would have been happier with a spare part for the car.