S14.E17: Game Night

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Then, we have Amara stealing souls left and right.  Most of them go immediately kill crazy, too.  Except for Donatello.  If they were going to do that, they should have had some kind of lame explanation that because he was a prophet she wasn't able to steal his entire soul or something.    But, Donatello doesn't seem unsoulled at all. Not even a little bit.  He clearly cares about Jack, he can give advice based on emotions. Not memories of emotions. there is nothing different about him at all.  I'll bet he even still sleeps.

That one guy in an earlier episode from Season 11 (maybe the Lizzie Borden ep) who got his soul sucked out by Amara was pretty chill as well. Even kind of sad about it. I think he confessed to some murders so he`d put away and not be a danger to anyone?    

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That one guy in an earlier episode from Season 11 (maybe the Lizzie Borden ep) who got his soul sucked out by Amara was pretty chill as well. Even kind of sad about it. I think he confessed to some murders so he`d put away and not be a danger to anyone?    

Yeah.  He had to confess to the murders committed by the perfectly normal teenager who went kill crazy when she lsot her soul. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yeah.  He had to confess to the murders committed by the perfectly normal teenager who went kill crazy when she lsot her soul. 

Sure but he himself stayed "normal" so they already established a Donatello-like individual. Of course, consistency has been taken out the back and shot behind the barn a long time ago on this show. 

[catrox14]

I rewatched this to see if I was wrong about how bad I thought it was and I'm not. And as part of my rewatch, I remembered couple of other stupid things. 

"Only God can restore a soul".   Nope, Death can as we saw in s6. Yes it comes with the price of a wall, but it can be done.  There is no reason why Billie wouldn't be able to do that and that would pretty much solve the "problem" of Jack not having a soul.    Even if Jack's soul was being burned away, it went somewhere, given that Mary was supposed to have been completely burned up in s1 in Home, but nope, Amara apparently reconstituted her with a soul since they haven't said she doesn't have one, and it's never been remotely hinted at in the show since she returned.

When did Sam study ancient Hebrew? I mean why not show us him using at least a damn app, to study.  Sigh.

I did like Dean being a badass fighter again.  I love the thought that Mary is dunzo but she won't be. No way.  Sadly.

Other than that this episode remains a cold mess.

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Re Pellegrino, so much yes! He is a good, and sometimes great, actor, but both of these characters have been beaten into the ground and I just want them gone so bad I can't see the acting anymore. I can never get past the fact that Nick shouldn't exist.

Yes, a 1000x yes! There is no way in hell that the original person Nick could possibly be alive with his memories, etc. Talk about throwing out any and all logic to keep your favorite characters/actors on screen. Even in a supernatural world it doesn't hold any logic. And if they DO bring Nick/Luci back once again in Pellegrino I'll be even more furious (if that's possible) because of the way they shat all over the Michael/Dean connection and story. And Dean is one of the two main characters of the show! It is truly sad how these writers have written this show into the toilet.

[trudysmom]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

given that Mary was supposed to have been completely burned up in s1 in Home, but nope, Amara apparently reconstituted her with a soul since they haven't said she doesn't have one, and it's never been remotely hinted at in the show since she returned.

That would explain so much!  I've found her soulless the entire time, that would explain it!  Or she's just, you know, a bitch.  I have hated her before but this episode really cemented it for me. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by trudysmom
Leaving out words is fairly dumb.

[BabySpinach]

Dean's fight scene was a lovely, unexpected nugget of quality in what has undeniably become Nougatnatural.

But his effortless take-down of multiple demons, with even greater ease than he handled them in 9.11, was directly intercut with Sam getting his melon caved in by regular human Nick and hiding from him in the car like a scared child. That was just so bizarre; it felt like a deliberate statement on Sam's incompetence. If I were a Sam fan, I'd be fucking livid.

And as awesome as it was, it was a little weird that Dean was equally matched, strength-wise, against a demon. He had almost no problem holding the blade away from his chest, even with his opponent doing his utmost to push it in. Probably LOL!Canon rather than a plot point, but at least his utter composure and competence looked cool. I'll take what scraps I can get.

The scene between Nick and Dean was almost interesting. Finally, someone brought up the fact that Dean was possessed by an archangel, and even implied that the experience might have permanently changed him. So much juicy potential teased there; too bad the writers give zero fucks about Michael!Dean. 

Insert obligatory "fuck Nougat Sue" here.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Dean's fight scene was a lovely, unexpected nugget of quality in what has undeniably become Nougatnatural.

But his effortless take-down of multiple demons, with even greater ease than he handled them in 9.11, was directly intercut with Sam getting his melon caved in by regular human Nick and hiding from him in the car like a scared child. That was just so bizarre; it felt like a deliberate statement on Sam's incompetence. If I were a Sam fan, I'd be fucking livid.

And as awesome as it was, it was a little weird that Dean was equally matched, strength-wise, against a demon. He had almost no problem holding the blade away from his chest, even with his opponent doing his utmost to push it in. Probably LOL!Canon rather than a plot point, but at least his utter composure and competence looked cool. I'll take what scraps I can get.

The scene between Nick and Dean was almost interesting. Finally, someone brought up the fact that Dean was possessed by an archangel, and even implied that the experience might have permanently changed him. So much juicy potential teased there; too bad the writers give zero fucks about Michael!Dean. 

Insert obligatory "fuck Nougat Sue" here.

I thought the fact that Dean beat those demons so easily, juxtaposed with Nick suggesting that Michael might have changed Dean might be the writers thinking they're being clever/subtle (because "real" Dean would never be able to win a fight, especially when Sam couldn't.)  Problem is, Dean fans have been burned so badly (and so often) that I can't see anyone believing that it's actually going to turn into anything.  

OTOH, if Dean and Cas are really at odds, Cas is safe from the empty, since I don't see him being truly happy for quite a while.  

[Lady Calypso]

4 hours ago, trudysmom said:

That would explain so much!  I've found her soulless the entire time, that would explain it!  Or she's just, you know, a bitch.  I have hated her before for this episode really cemented it for me. 

I'm gonna go with the latter. Yeah, I realize that they seem to only get Samantha Smith for a specific number of episodes a season, but maybe they shouldn't have brought her back and kept her alive, then. It would be one thing if she agreed with the boys that she would stay away for her own safety. It's another for her to keep popping in and out, not being around during the most important times, and showing so little empathy toward either of her boys. Neither Sam nor Dean get much from her, unless the plot really needs her to muster up something nice about them. But even then, like her compliment toward Sam this episode, it feels completely forced. All I want to say is "Woman, you don't even know your own sons. Shut up and go away." Mary showed more feeling toward past John showing up this season than toward her sons at any point during her last few seasons. 

10 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

But his effortless take-down of multiple demons, with even greater ease than he handled them in 9.11, was directly intercut with Sam getting his melon caved in by regular human Nick and hiding from him in the car like a scared child. That was just so bizarre; it felt like a deliberate statement on Sam's incompetence.

It was definitely really stupid. It was as if Sam was never a hunter in his 35+ years of life and forgot how to fight an actual human. This is why I hate when writers write for plot, rather than character. Sam would have never paused for so long while beating Nickifer up. He wouldn't have intentionally LET HIM GO while strangling him, giving Nickifer enough time to slam a rock into Sam's head. He wouldn't have hidden in the car long before he got his head caved in. I know he likely had a concussion but we know Sam has dealt with worse. No way would he have not taken Nickifer down quickly.

Dean and Sam are supposed to be pros; they've been at it all their lives, but we've seen them face a lot worse in 14 seasons. This just doesn't work on a veteran show like this. But this show has always gone for plot contrivances to allow other characters to win or steal the spotlight. Sam and Dean have both lost fights that they should have theoretically won without breaking much of a sweat. 

But this Sam vs Nickifer fight very well may be one of the worst fights I've seen because of how weak Sam looked by the end of it. It's not even about Sam needing to win every fight; a teenager could have won this fight against Nickifer. It would have been equally as bad if Dean lost this fight. 

[Lastcall]

16 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm gonna go with the latter. Yeah, I realize that they seem to only get Samantha Smith for a specific number of episodes a season, but maybe they shouldn't have brought her back and kept her alive, then. It would be one thing if she agreed with the boys that she would stay away for her own safety. It's another for her to keep popping in and out, not being around during the most important times, and showing so little empathy toward either of her boys. Neither Sam nor Dean get much from her, unless the plot really needs her to muster up something nice about them. But even then, like her compliment toward Sam this episode, it feels completely forced. All I want to say is "Woman, you don't even know your own sons. Shut up and go away." Mary showed more feeling toward past John showing up this season than toward her sons at any point during her last few seasons. 

It was definitely really stupid. It was as if Sam was never a hunter in his 35+ years of life and forgot how to fight an actual human. This is why I hate when writers write for plot, rather than character. Sam would have never paused for so long while beating Nickifer up. He wouldn't have intentionally LET HIM GO while strangling him, giving Nickifer enough time to slam a rock into Sam's head. He wouldn't have hidden in the car long before he got his head caved in. I know he likely had a concussion but we know Sam has dealt with worse. No way would he have not taken Nickifer down quickly.

Dean and Sam are supposed to be pros; they've been at it all their lives, but we've seen them face a lot worse in 14 seasons. This just doesn't work on a veteran show like this. But this show has always gone for plot contrivances to allow other characters to win or steal the spotlight. Sam and Dean have both lost fights that they should have theoretically won without breaking much of a sweat. 

But this Sam vs Nickifer fight very well may be one of the worst fights I've seen because of how weak Sam looked by the end of it. It's not even about Sam needing to win every fight; a teenager could have won this fight against Nickifer. It would have been equally as bad if Dean lost this fight. 

I’ve been as vocal as anyone over Dabb being a Sam fanboy who hates Dean but even I was offended by Nicks beat down of Sam. If the scene was reversed and Nick did that to Dean I would be livid. As for the spec that Nick and Dean got some kind of power boost from Lucifer and Michael, I think that’s brilliant but I can’t believe Dabb’s team is that clever. I’ve speculated Glynn stealth writes a few good things for Dean fans that fly under Dabb’s radar but he would never sign on for power Dean.

Now for Mary, the only thing that makes sense is if she came back without a soul. It would salvage the memory of old Mary instead of making her seem cold,distant and emotionally abusive. They will never admit it, Dabb will keep trying to justify her behavior like in this episode but fail miserably and make people hate her even more.

[gonzosgirrl]

Dean fought a whole room full of Demons in First Born single-handedly, and that was pre-MOC.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean fought a whole room full of Demons in First Born single-handedly, and that was pre-MOC.

You beat me to it.  And it was awesome!

[tessathereaper]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean fought a whole room full of Demons in First Born single-handedly, and that was pre-MOC.

Yeah I can't say I see it as all that strange that Dean was able to take out the demons.  In fact that SHOULD be normal Dean, because they used to do stuff like this all the time in the past, when Dean was mostly allowed to be competent and not just that but a true expert at his job including being an excellent fighter.  The only reason it would seem strange IMO is that we've gotten so used to seeing incompetent, loser Dean that it seems weird.

This is the Dean we should have been seeing for the last 3 years(as we saw him before that), not the one getting knocked out by any random pathetic creatures who comes along or is unable to hold his own in fights against teenage girls, etc.

That said, they did do Sam dirty in the Nick fight, but I wish I could feel worse about it than I do. Which I probably would if they didn't do Dean dirty all the time-physically, mentally and emotionally.

Edited April 7, 2019 by tessathereaper

[juppschmitz]

I haven't watched (obviously, because I knew Pellegrino was going to be in it), but... remember Red Meat, when an almost mortally wounded Sam managed to kill two super werewolves, drive to the hospital (changing cars on the way IIRC) and arrive just in time to save damsel-in-distress Dean?

Oh, Dabb co-wrote that one...

[Aeryn13]

This was supposed to link back to Mary's words in how good a man Sam is so he obviously wouldn't strangle/bludgeon "poor Nick". It wasn't a statement on  Sam's abilities but his saintliness. And directly juxtaposed with Mary freaking out on Jack for burning Nickifer. That she just looked hysterical and stupid (and hypocritical) once more flew over the writers heads.     

[mertensia]

16 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I'm talking about it being a retcon from the time when people without souls were originally written like sociopaths and/or rabid animals. But now we have Donatello who just has to think about Mr. Rogers and everything's fine. So, again, we shouldn't have to be worrying about Jack, except of course now we're supposed to. Pick a direction.

Well, it could be different for him because he's a prophet.

Or maybe it's because he's an inherently nonviolent guy. Sam isn't.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

Well, it could be different for him because he's a prophet.

Or maybe it's because he's an inherently nonviolent guy. Sam isn't.

Jenna didn't seem inherently violent.  Neither did the girl in Thin Lizzie who gave Amara her jacket because she looked cold.  And, I think if a kindergarten teacher had been inherently violent, she would have snapped way before her soul got sucked out.  

[Aeryn13]

Soullessness was never consistent when it was introduced for Sam, it changed episode to episode so I guess the current "it means whatever the fuck we want it to for different people" actually IS consistent with that in its own way. Hooray?

[mertensia]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Jenna didn't seem inherently violent.  Neither did the girl in Thin Lizzie who gave Amara her jacket because she looked cold.  And, I think if a kindergarten teacher had been inherently violent, she would have snapped way before her soul got sucked out.  

Well, clearly there was violence somewhere in there. 

[sigmaforce86]

I didn't have a problem with Sam locking himself in the car, he'd been beaten in the head with a rock he should be disoriented and weak.  Also he fell for the oldest fight trick in the book - when you have someone on the ground that someone is going to grope for anything and everything they can reach and hit you with it.  Of course the boys have both been hit in the head enough times over the past 14 years (and likely before especially Dean since he kept hunting with Dad) that they should be the poster boys for CTE, PCS and any number of related issues.  You'd think their brains would be scrambled eggs by now.  Which they might be, it would explain the problem with Nick's resolution - Sam's refusal to just shoot him outright.  After so many years and so many bad guys both human and not Sam STILL hesitates to kill.  There was no reason for Sam to think there is anything redeemable about Nick or that he'd go off and live a normal happy life if he just saw the error of his was and still Sam can't just shoot; can't just "Take" a life if the person isn't coming at him to make it full on self-defense.  Jack doesn't have any empathy, Sam has far too much.

Mary wasn't wrong to not lie to Jack but like Sam she was wrong to make it black or white/live or die - I wonder how far she would have gotten with him if she had said yes Nick did deserve to die but he didn't necessarily deserve to die that way.  If she said:  It was wrong to torture him and hurt him first and to make the death a slow burn and we need to talk about how you can learn to balance these things and not act out of anger.  That would have been much more truthful and by now they should be able to see one way that seems to get through to Jack is if you make him stop and think for a minute, he seems to respond better to that approach most of the time.

Edited April 7, 2019 by sigmaforce86

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

There was no reason for Sam to think there is anything redeemable about Nick or that he'd go off and live a normal happy life if he just saw the error of his was and still Sam can't just shoot; can't just "Take" a life if the person isn't coming at him to make it full on self-defense.  Jack doesn't have any empathy, Sam has far too much.

I like that Sam has empathy and that he isn't just willing to kill unless he has to. Sure, maybe he should have done it in this case, but it becomes a slippery slope when you decide who gets to live or die, unless you have hard and fast rules.  Only kill humans when they are in the process of trying to kill you or someone else.

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Mary wasn't wrong to lie to Jack but like Sam she was wrong to make it black or white/live or die -

How did Mary lie to Jack?  The only things I remember her saying was that Nick didn't deserve to die like that.  I tend to agree, but whether anyone else does or not, Mary thinks so, so it's not a lie.  Then she said it wasn't OK.  Again, not a lie.  And that he's family. They spent a lot of time together in the AU that we didn't even see, so I'm inclined to call that not a lie.  Am I forgetting part of the conversation?

[Aeryn13]

Mary was stupid in approaching Jack at the end. He was clearly freaking out and yelling "leave me alone" and she kept pestering him like a total idiot. Good riddance. The only thing that bugged me is that not once she could say to Dean that he is a good man, too, or she is proud of him or anything like that. In fucking three Seasons, not once.  

Edited April 7, 2019 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I like that Sam has empathy and that he isn't just willing to kill unless he has to. Sure, maybe he should have done it in this case, but it becomes a slippery slope when you decide who gets to live or die, unless you have hard and fast rules.  Only kill humans when they are in the process of trying to kill you or someone else.

Except Sam lead a charge on the British Men of letters headquarters with the intent to kill them.  The Brits were mostly only going after monsters, not people (for the most part.).  They seemed to have an intent to eliminate them all, even just a low level computer operator.

   They were far less of a threat then Lucifer.  They were only a threat to other hunters.

Sam didn't  have a problem with Dean shooting the guy in the 13th episode when a bullet to the leg would have stopped him.  So why is he suddenly sympathetic to Nick of all people.

Nick when he demonstrated a clear and present danger to the entire planet.  He wasnt' going to try and stop raising Lucifer.  IMO, there shouldn't even have been a debate with Nick.

There is no consistency about when Sam and Dean debate how to handle human threats.  Its just whatever the plot calls for.  The plot called for Jack to kill Nick.  Even then I don't get Mary's pearl clutching because he would keep trying to kill them.

There is no rhyme or reason to anything this show does anymore.

[BabySpinach]

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean fought a whole room full of Demons in First Born single-handedly, and that was pre-MOC.

But in First Born he struggled and got hit multiple times. The overall fight was a lot scrappier and more tense. 

Here, Dean was almost toying with the demons, easily flinging them around (he literally used one of Michael's moves from 14.10) like it was a choreographed dance that only he knew the steps to. And Dean was somehow equal to a demon in strength, and didn't get hit once. I loved it, but I still think it's worth mentioning, just for comparison's sake if nothing else. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by BabySpinach

[ILoveReading]

29 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

But in First Born he struggled and got hit multiple times. The overall fight was a lot scrappier and more tense. 

Here, Dean was almost toying with the demons, easily flinging them around (he literally used one of Michael's moves from 14.10) like it was a choregraphed dance that only he knew the steps to. And Dean was somehow equal to a demon in strength, and didn't get hit once. I loved it, but I think it's worth mentioning, just for comparison's sake if nothing else.  

It would be cool if it meant something but with these writers I doubt it.

[S Cook Productions]

4 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I didn't have a problem with Sam locking himself in the car, he'd been beaten in the head with a rock he should be disoriented and weak.  Also he fell for the oldest fight trick in the book - when you have someone on the ground that someone is going to grope for anything and everything they can reach and hit you with it.  Of course the boys have both been hit in the head enough times over the past 14 years (and likely before especially Dean since he kept hunting with Dad) that they should be the poster boys for CTE, PCS and any number of related issues.  You'd think their brains would be scrambled eggs by now.  Which they might be, it would explain the problem with Nick's resolution - Sam's refusal to just shoot him outright.  After so many years and so many bad guys both human and not Sam STILL hesitates to kill.  There was no reason for Sam to think there is anything redeemable about Nick or that he'd go off and live a normal happy life if he just saw the error of his was and still Sam can't just shoot; can't just "Take" a life if the person isn't coming at him to make it full on self-defense.  Jack doesn't have any empathy, Sam has far too much.

Mary wasn't wrong to lie to Jack but like Sam she was wrong to make it black or white/live or die - I wonder how far she would have gotten with him if she had said yes Nick did deserve to die but he didn't necessarily deserve to die that way.  If she said:  It was wrong to torture him and hurt him first and to make the death a slow burn and we need to talk about how you can learn to balance these things and not act out of anger.  That would have been much more truthful and by now they should be able to see one way that seems to get through to Jack is if you make him stop and think for a minute, he seems to respond better to that approach most of the time.

My head canon is that every time Cas heals Sam or Dean (and that’s a lot), he erases whatever CTE, PCS, and other concussion-related issues they most certainly should have. 

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

My head canon is that every time Cas heals Sam or Dean (and that’s a lot), he erases whatever CTE, PCS, and other concussion-related issues they most certainly should have. 

This is what I've always thought too!

[DeeDee79]

Well, I just watched and while I didn't love it I didn't hate it either. I enjoyed Dean's demon fight, I didn't mind Sam retreating after being hit in the head repeatedly with a rock ( understandable ), and I doubt that Nickifer is dead because this show has let me down too many times to count. Also, Jack is more interesting without his soul though I don't know why Cas is so afraid to tell Sam and Dean about it. They knew that he was burning off pieces of his soul every time he used his powers so what's the big deal with telling them that it's gone completely?

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So why is he suddenly sympathetic to Nick of all people.

The only reason I can see for it is that (no spoilers) they are setting up Sam to have the same connection to Lucifer that Nick has and that's why he can't kill Nickifer. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I like that Sam has empathy and that he isn't just willing to kill unless he has to. Sure, maybe he should have done it in this case, but it becomes a slippery slope when you decide who gets to live or die, unless you have hard and fast rules.  Only kill humans when they are in the process of trying to kill you or someone else.

I can't see where Sam would/should/needs to have any empathy for Nick. He was already burned by it the first time, which Sam specifically mentioned.  He felt guilt for Lucifer and now he had the chance to shoot Lucifer's vessel that wants to resurrect Lucifer and he doesn't? It's just flat out stupid writing for the sake of plot. And that is what is wrong with this show now.  They have lost the ability to apply plot to character properly.  Or to let us in on if Sam is attached to Lucifer like Nick was. 

It's just like with Dean fighting the demons.  If he's been given some extra juice from Michael the show should at least let us in on the secret. The characters can keep the secrets from each other and the tension exists with the audience because we are also in on their secrets. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

But in First Born he struggled and got hit multiple times. The overall fight was a lot scrappier and more tense. 

Which move did he use? I'm gonna rewatch it. I mean it would be fantastic if Michael left behind some new moves for Dean to access.  At least Dean would have gotten something good out of that deal!

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only reason I can see for it is that (no spoilers) they are setting up Sam to have the same connection to Lucifer that Nick has and that's why he can't kill Nickifer. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

When did he show sympathy to Nick? Was it when he stopped choking him? Beyond that I didn't see it in this episode.

[sigmaforce86]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

How did Mary lie to Jack?  The only things I remember her saying was that Nick didn't deserve to die like that.  I tend to agree, but whether anyone else does or not, Mary thinks so, so it's not a lie.  Then she said it wasn't OK.  Again, not a lie.  And that he's family. They spent a lot of time together in the AU that we didn't even see, so I'm inclined to call that not a lie.  Am I forgetting part of the conversation?

You're right, I missed typing one word....... "NOT" - can I chalk it up to early morning brain? (unlike the boys I definitely haven't been hit on the head lately!).  I should have said Mary wasn't wrong to not lie to Jack when he asked her about what he did.  Would have been easier to type "Mary wasn't wrong to tell Jack the truth" - I really should go edit that.  :-)

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

But in First Born he struggled and got hit multiple times. The overall fight was a lot scrappier and more tense. 

Here, Dean was almost toying with the demons, easily flinging them around (he literally used one of Michael's moves from 14.10) like it was a choreographed dance that only he knew the steps to. And Dean was somehow equal to a demon in strength, and didn't get hit once. I loved it, but I still think it's worth mentioning, just for comparison's sake if nothing else. 

It's probably more due to the weakening of demons (SPN version) over all. Remember, these are the same species that basically peed their pants and ran away just because Sam told them to at the start of the season. I'm surprised they even showed up to fight in the first place.

[BabySpinach]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Which move did he use? I'm gonna rewatch it. I mean it would be fantastic if Michael left behind some new moves for Dean to access.  At least Dean would have gotten something good out of that deal!

Both Michael and Dean toss their opponents with literally the exact same move. It was distinctive enough to catch my attention on the first watch-through. 

Maybe the fight choreographer was just recycling. Still cool, though.

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

When did he show sympathy to Nick? Was it when he stopped choking him? Beyond that I didn't see it in this episode.

FWIW, I didn't say he showed him empathy, I was just responding to why Nick got the upper hand. He got the upper hand because Sam relaxed his grip around Nick's neck which apparently was enough for Nick to recover some function and bean Sam with the rock.

So for me the options are

Empathy/Sympathy- which just no because Sam has no reason for that at all other than he's Jesus now LOL

Fear- Sam is scared to kill for reasons...which completely damages the character

Sam is attached to Lucifer still...setting up a further plot with Samifer (no spoiler).

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The only reason I can see for it is that (no spoilers) they are setting up Sam to have the same connection to Lucifer that Nick has and that's why he can't kill Nickifer. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

They did have Nick taunt Sam that he wasn't the "true vessel" anymore. There might be more to that.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Both Michael and Dean toss their opponents with literally the exact same move. It was distinctive enough to catch my attention on the first watch-through. 

Maybe the fight choreographer was just recycling. Still cool, though.

Here is Dean's fight at Cain's house in s9.  I don't see it being that different than the demon fight here. Dean used the move of turning the demon's weapon against themselves.  He used more things in the room as weapons because he could.  

I do see the bit about Dean and Michael!Dean shoving the opponent but I don't know that it's Michael memory muscle at work. I wish that it was! But since the show hasn't bothered to mention much about Dean being affected by Michael...I'm reticent to think it's intentional. 

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

FWIW, I didn't say he showed him empathy, I was just responding to why Nick got the upper hand. He got the upper hand because Sam relaxed his grip around Nick's neck which apparently was enough for Nick to recover some function and bean Sam with the rock.

So for me the options are

Empathy/Sympathy- which just no because Sam has no reason for that at all other than he's Jesus now LOL

Fear- Sam is scared to kill for reasons...which completely damages the character

Sam is attached to Lucifer still...setting up a further plot with Samifer (no spoiler).

I'm sorry; I wasn't saying that you were the one that said that. I was just chiming into the conversation and quoted you because yours was the last post referencing it.

My assumption was that Sam relaxed his grip because he thought that Nick was pretty much done for. He was spitting up copious amounts of blood and he was already pretty beat up before the fight. If it had been another show besides SPN the fight would have basically killed him; since TPTB love Nickifer of course it didn't end that way. I personally wouldn't call it empathy or sympathy because Sam had been itching to give him a beat down from the moment he was brought into the bunker. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

They did have Nick taunt Sam that he wasn't the "true vessel" anymore. There might be more to that.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I personally wouldn't call it empathy or sympathy because Sam had been itching to give him a beat down from the moment he was brought into the bunker.

That's why I can't figure out why he stopped.  I mean after choking him, he had no good reason to not also shoot him n the head.

Other than maybe he had a thought about using Nick's info on summoning Lucifer for...reasons..?

[Ninamags]

In rewatching the episode, I noticed that the “before” part went on forever! 

My god, it must have been about two minutes! Can’t recall that ever happening.

If you need to give us that much background information then you suck as a story writer either because your story is so convoluted and tangled and incomprehensible or because you obviously think the viewers are complete morons that can’t recall what’s happened a few episodes ago or even last week!   

Given that the audience might be skewering younger, (whether by design or completely by accident) then that might explain it.  😛😛

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That's why I can't figure out why he stopped.  I mean after choking him, he had no good reason to not also shoot him n the head.

Well, we now know it was so Jack could be the one to get the kill. While I was watching I was thinking " Sam, keep choking him!"

[Morrigan2575]

I'm glad it was an accident, I thought for sure Jack was going to kill Mary to protect his secret. I'm guessing Lucifer got in Jack's head and that's what Jack was yelling about, it was definitely Angel Radio.

As for Nick, my only issue with how Jack handled it was he was taking too long. I kept saying hurry up and, go save Sam we're running out of episode time. Of course that was in between bouts of Shut Up Mary!  I honestly didn't see what she was complaining about since Dean was just beating/torturing Nick for information. Of course, I also yelled at Sam when he stopped choking Nick.  WTF!? dude is barely human and, trying to resurrect Lucifer...Finish Him!

I enjoyed the episode but, if Mary is dead for realz, they telegraphed it a mile away with the heart to heart scenes with both Dean and Sam.

I hope Chuck/God does come back, I adore him. 

[ZennyKenny]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Well, we now know it was so Jack could be the one to get the kill. While I was watching I was thinking " Sam, keep choking him!"

Now that you mention it, yep! That's exactly it! Jack got to kill Michael, and now he got to kill pseudoLucifer. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he re-opened that doorway to the Empty and completely destroyed Lucifer's spirit. Who needs the brothers when we have our sweet little boy savior!

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Now that you mention it, yep! That's exactly it! Jack got to kill Michael, and now he got to kill pseudoLucifer. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he re-opened that doorway to the Empty and completely destroyed Lucifer's spirit. Who needs the brothers when we have our sweet little boy savior!

It'll either be to destroy Lucifer or to destroy the Empty Keeper to remove the threat to Cas. Who knows what will happen before the end of the season!

[FlickChick]

I can't make up my mind whether or not Jack killed Mary. He called her name so quickly after the "glowing eyes", he could have just as easily thrown her several feet in the air as he has done to people in the past. I'm afraid to get my hopes up. I know, so sad that I'd rather see her dead than continue as the character we've seen. (Plus, IMO, the writers killed her character long before Jack who possibly killed her body). Guess we'll find out on Thursday. Plus who's to say that he can't bring her back to life anyway now that he's got Michael's archangel grace.

I also have to mention how much I disliked the editing of this episode. That's been a problem all season, IMO. Are they now just looking for the cheapest writers/editors that they can find? Talent be damned. Only three episodes left, and then I can only pray to God that Jensen and Jared really can make a difference in the next final season.

[gonzosgirrl]

I didn't find anything wrong with Sam seeking refuge from Nick in the Impala. He was (apparently) mortally injured and unable to defend himself, so it was actually pretty smart to try and protect himself and to get Dean's attention with the horn. IMO this was far more realistic and good for the character than his super-human fight with the werewolves and subsequent rescue of Dean in the abomination that was Red Meat.

Not killing Nick when he had the chance now, that was just stupid. It wasn't murder or even vengeance, it was self defense and Nick had made it clear he was never going to stop.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I can't make up my mind whether or not Jack killed Mary.

I feel like they usually show us when they kill someone.  so, I'm not 100% convinced. Then again, I kept expecting Bela to pop back up since all we did was hear the hell hound in the distance.  And I expected Chuck to stay gone. I am not all reliable.

[OrigamiNightmare]

57 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I can't make up my mind whether or not Jack killed Mary. He called her name so quickly after the "glowing eyes", he could have just as easily thrown her several feet in the air as he has done to people in the past. I'm afraid to get my hopes up. I know, so sad that I'd rather see her dead than continue as the character we've seen. (Plus, IMO, the writers killed her character long before Jack who possibly killed her body). Guess we'll find out on Thursday. Plus who's to say that he can't bring her back to life anyway now that he's got Michael's archangel grace.

I also have to mention how much I disliked the editing of this episode. That's been a problem all season, IMO. Are they now just looking for the cheapest writers/editors that they can find? Talent be damned. Only three episodes left, and then I can only pray to God that Jensen and Jared really can make a difference in the next final season.

What stuck out to you about the editing?