S04.E11: The 411

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

The gang talks to a book. Tick threatens to drink some water.

Promo:

Clip:

Original air date: 4/3/19

Edited March 29, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[chrisvee]

Wow. That Qualice storyline made me super uncomfortable.

Save Kady and Zelda!

The Binder made me cry.

[festivus]

Oh, Julia. Once again her choice was taken from her. Alice also kind of broke my heart. Those things she said, I felt so bad for her. I will have more to say later once I watch again. Except for those two ladies breaking my heart this was one of the funniest episodes. I laughed so much during it.  Margo was on fire. Hyman!

[The Companion]

Margo was on fire tonight. I can't decide if my favorite part was telling Quentin to grow a pair of tits, the funny sequence of her retelling the story, the way she plopped her tampon in the book or the way she yelled at Hyman that she could see him with her fairy eye. I legitimately laughed out loud multiple times. 

So the Library gets worse and worse, and the monster gets more sympathetic. They locked him up so they didn't lose their godhood and mutilated his sister for power. I suddenly feel a lot less sorry for them. 

Not gonna lie, I didn't love Alice and Quentin memory lane, but it was sort of fun to see silly smitten Quentin. Honestly, I am good with them finding common ground but neither of them needs to go back to the other. I am going to hate it if they take it in that direction. Frankly, I liked it better when Alice was working with Kady. She has always been linked through Quentin, so having her develop something different was more interesting. 

Poor Julia can't catch a break. 

[tennisgurl]

I felt really bad for both Quentin and Alice, honestly. Alice is still in love with him, but Q has moved on, and while I hope they can find closure and stay friends, I dont see them getting back together. Quentin just seems so sad and broken down all of the time now, like he is just so mentally and physically exhausted, but he is still going through sheer force of will. And now he has this whole thing with his ex to deal with, its just so much.

No, Julia! Get away from her, creepy Monster! Her and Penny 40 have grown on me a lot as a potential couple, so of course the Monster shows up to mess everything up. I figured that would happen, because of her leftover god mojo, but they better get to her in time. 

I love how Josh finds himself on a random cooking show, in a land where no one has cameras, and he just decides to go with it. Its by far not the weirdest thing Josh has dealt with at this point I guess. 

Dont mess with Sorrow and...Sorrow. I love how Margo told the whole story, in exactly the same words, three times in a row. And Quentin stuck around the whole time for all three, which is a very high mark of friendship. And opening up the book with period blood is so Margo. "Thanks shark week." Poor Binder though, getting stuck as a book for thousands of years. Maybe he can take over the library when the bad seeds are out?

Surviving first years. "Grow a pair of tits, Coldwater." 

So we finally find out that Quentin's thing is...repairing small objects? It sounds like the kind of thing that sounds lame, but will be super helpful at some point. Putting the broken mug together certainly looked cool. I think that it fits his character. Its less flashy and "badass" then what a lot of the other characters specialize in, but its quietly helpful in a pinch.

[AnimeMania]

Boy do I miss the old days when all the characters did was take their clothes off and have sex. Oh Alice, I missed your body! I am such a perv!

Well Kady, you will finally be reunited with your Penny40.

I wonder where they are going with the story line of Josh & Fen and the Lake of Magic. Are they supposed to break the dam and let the magic flow out?

If they kill MonsterEliot and his sister there will be enough parts to make everybody a God.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Making magic:

[festivus]

I'm gonna put this under spoiler tags even though it's only spec but it does come from some interview statements I've seen.

Spoiler

Every week I change my mind about who's gonna be in that elevator with Penny40 but now I'm thinking Quentin. I read somewhere that the last episode was going to shock us and what could be more shocking than Quentin dying? Penny40 did say we're not watching the story we think we are. Now with Hyman showing up again and he was the one watching the story with the white male protagonist or so he thought. Even he's starting to see more of the story than he had been. Anyway, I could see it happening, it certainly would be shocking. Whatever, I'm probably wrong because I don't know why the thought never entered my mind that those four gods with the stones were librarians. So my track record isn't great. 😄

[iMonrey]

There's just so much going on this season I don't know what to make of it. Talk about awkward timing, Quentin returns to the present day just as he and Alice are kissing!

I just don't know where any of this is going, I hope the show is able to pull it all together by the end. Only 2 episodes left!

[Azi]

Best scene: Margo and the tampon. Hands down.

Penny23 and Julia kissing made me happy. They're so cute. Ofc the Monster had to pop up and I assume Julia will become the exact opposite she decides on, cause she has so change her mind in an emergency situation.
Glad we got a bit more backround for the Monster, but I do hope the show won't try to tell me he's a good guy in the end or something. His rage might be justified, but he's still killing people willy nilly.

Of course I missed Elliot and I hope Hale had the best time ever in all his free time... Still don't think we'll get Elliot back before the finale.

Q and Alice were... well, I can't say super interesting cause the ship bores me to tears, but I think it was cool to see the contrast in how they behaved. Especially when present!Alice kissed past!Q, I realized that present!Q not once hesitated in rejecting past!Alice. No 0.5 seconds of giving in, like present!Alice clearly didn't in the end. It really did feel that while Q is still hurt by what happened between them and is fond of their memories, he might actually be over the relationship... while she's not. Wonder where that will lead. Am not sure I'm here for it, cause I really really want to like Alice. And I do. Just... the writing for her is so frustrating?

They simply refuse to give her friends apart from Q for some reason. Margo was 100% right when she said she was a package deal with Q way back and nothing has really changed since then. I realized this when I went through the question of "Who would appear in each of the characters' minds as guides or similar" like Eliot and Margo did.

We know for Eliot, it's: Margo, Q and Fen. Makes sense.
For Margo it's: Eliot, Josh and Fen. Also makes sense (I don't count Kady (cause they clearly simply wanted the actress to sing) or the Dean (comic relief moment).

For the others I came up with:
Q: Alice, Julia and Eliot.
Julia: Q, Kady and now maybe Penny23
Kady: Julia, Penny40, maybe Harriet
The Pennys are more complicated, cause one has been AWOL for most of the time and the other is new (tho he seems to get along with everyone?).
Who would appear for Alice? I'd say Q, her father and probably Sheila? Maybe. Her mother is horrible. Who else not called Q did she have important scenes with? Who would I call her friend? Santa Claus? Aka we have one main character and the others are all guest stars. So basically if they want to write about Alice (as they naturally should), as of now they kind of have to use Q, cause they haven't bothered to give her anyone else ... and with all their baggage, it always becomes about that ship by default. And round and round we go and never reach a conclusion.

Like, she came to help after she read that Quentin would die. It's what you do for a friend, but since it's Q, it felt shippy. Wouldn't it have been cool if they'd written her doing that for "just" a friend she made along the way? Idk maybe I'm completely off the mark but I find this really frustrating. In the beginning I thought we'd get the smart and insecure girl finally finding a group of friends and I was looking forward to that... but nothing. 😕 GIVE HER SOME FRIENDS YOU COWARDS! 

I also think we simply have the problem of our episode summaries being just funny lol sentences a la "Quentin finds a rock. Margo eats salad." instead of an actual preview like other shows have. It's frustrating to know nothing. Sure, those previews never tell the whole story or the important stuff, but you CAN kind of gauge from them a vague timeline. This is probably where some of the arc fatigue is coming from? Maybe?

Kady and Zelda were an interesting team up and I wonder how they'll get out. Penny40 maybe?

 

[owenthurman]

No spoiler, and I haven't read any interviews, but here's some speculation:

Spoiler

The monster and his sister will nearly prevail, our heroes will dramatically defeat them, but then, before there's any feeling of accomplishment or triumph, Everett will come along, steal the power of the monstrous siblings, and become an evil god, setting up the situation for the next season.

I hope I'm wrong. I loved season 3 SO MUCH until that incredibly disappointing finale, and I suspect the writers will do it again.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Best scene: Margo and the tampon. Hands down.

Grossest scene, anyhow.

I'm not sure I understand the Monster's origins. Did the Librarians create the siblings? With the express purpose of using them to make themselves Gods? I have to go back and watch this again.

Quote

I hope I'm wrong. I loved season 3 SO MUCH until that incredibly disappointing finale, and I suspect the writers will do it again.

The season finale is always a gut punch so you're probably right. Your speculation for the ending sounds plausible too, ownthurman. 

God I'm dense. I just put together that the title of this episode "The 411" equals season four, episode 11. 

Also, completely forgot about the banana phone until I read a recap. So many gems.

Edited April 4, 2019 by iMonrey

[generate789]

I think my favorite line was when Penny dropped Quentin and Alice off in Antarctica and complained about it being cold because he didn't have his scarf. Awesome snark on p-40s wardrobe choices.

[treasaigh]

I just finished watching and I think I might stop watching the season till next season comes along.  This is so ending on a horrible cliffhanger.  And I want Eliot back.  And I want my Eliot and Quentin ship.  They cannot tease E&Q then have Eliot return ready to declare his love just to see Quentin and Alice kissing, which I'm so afraid is what's going to happen.  Up till this episode I loved that, while Alice was clearly not over Q, Q was clearly over Alice, and it didn't seem like they were going to get back together.  Now I'm afraid they are going to horrible love triangle land.  The only good news is I believe Eliot gets his guy in the end.  They can't tease that ship and then not go there.

Did Margo let Josh and Fen know she was okay?  The bunnies work again, right?

I don't know guys, does this whole season feel a bit like set up for next season?

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, treasaigh said:

Did Margo let Josh and Fen know she was okay?  The bunnies work again, right?

I don't think they every explained how Margo left Filory, so she probably had to go back to the castle to contact the Penny Express.

[AudienceofOne]

Margo was thrown out of the kingdom so she couldn't have gone back. How she contacted Penny to get a lift? She did some mining and dug up some HANDWAVIUM.

I gotta say this episode was kind of clunky. It's like the writers suddenly realised they needed x, y and z piece moved into certain places on the board for the final two episodes but those characters weren't in the right place so they just forced them there. The Hyman intervention was particularly clunky - although I admit some bias because I could not care less about Julia and Penny 23's relationship. Quentin (and gang) being given yet another Hobson's Choice about saving one of their friends was poignant enough without adding in Penny's new boyfriend status.  

I did like the Binder plotline and how it successfully intersected the two Godhood plotlines. I also don't remember Matt Frewer giving such poignant, understated performances before. I mean, he's a great actor but he usually goes big - all booming theatrics. This was the opposite of that. 

In trying to find the answers to some of my questions regarding the twins, I popped by some other sites and stumbled on some interesting ideas about Quentin being the repairer of small objects. Somebody noted that hearts are a small object and joking said they wondered if Q was going to fix Alice's heart. Joking aside, the idea of Q as a repairer of hearts actually resonated with me. He's such a quietly nurturing person. 

[chrisvee]

10 hours ago, treasaigh said:

I just finished watching and I think I might stop watching the season till next season comes along.  This is so ending on a horrible cliffhanger.  And I want Eliot back.  And I want my Eliot and Quentin ship.  They cannot tease E&Q then have Eliot return ready to declare his love just to see Quentin and Alice kissing, which I'm so afraid is what's going to happen.  Up till this episode I loved that, while Alice was clearly not over Q, Q was clearly over Alice, and it didn't seem like they were going to get back together.  Now I'm afraid they are going to horrible love triangle land.  The only good news is I believe Eliot gets his guy in the end.  They can't tease that ship and then not go there.

Did Margo let Josh and Fen know she was okay?  The bunnies work again, right?

I don't know guys, does this whole season feel a bit like set up for next season?

I’ve had the same thoughts. I still think Jason could be leaving the show bc of P40’s comments about protagonists and how they seem to be wrapping up all Q’s emotional threads.

However if that’s not the case and we’re going to Triangleland or back to Qualice, I’m out. It makes no story sense and it offends me personally to be teased with primarily subtextual and offscreen relationships that they won’t pay off onscreen.

The amount of explaining not showing the plot in this episode was off the charts. Juxtaposing Margo’s understandable pride in her desert quest with the fact that the Monster has all the stones was just wildly off tone. The reappearance of Hymen was bizarre.

Not a great episode. And having Eliot absent for an entire season while Margo grieved and Q pined for him only to suddenly have Qualice kissing and everything shoved into two episodes to resolve while adding Julia in peril right after hooking up P23 seems ill-conceived. The EPs need to read up on the term catharsis.

ETA that the mind swap left me feeling really icky. The violation of both Alice and Q’s consent was ugh. I think they wanted a Something Blueish vibe but...just no. In an ep that followed Margo sleeping with that cave troll to barter for her and E’s life...ick.

ETA2 that I would also love Alice to have friends and relationships beyond Q.

ETA3 that if El returns to Qualice kissing he’d better be brave as he promised and tell her to get her lips off his husband.

Edited April 5, 2019 by chrisvee

[festivus]

I know I said this in one of the threads last season after Life In a Day aired, but anyone watching this show with the expectation of certain ships being endgame will probably end up being disappointed. This is not the kind of show where the ships drive it. Book spoiler:

Spoiler

No one really ends up together there either. It's left open ended on Quentin and Alice. Only Josh and Poppy do but she's nothing like show Poppy.

Even if they get Eliot back, he's going to have to deal with the Monster doing terrible things with his body. To quote Bucky Barnes from the MCU, even if his mind wasn't present when he did horrible things "I still did it".

1 hour ago, chrisvee said:

I’ve had the same thoughts. I still think Jason could be leaving the show bc of P40’s comments about protagonists and how they seem to be wrapping up all W’s emotional threads.

I said the same thing upthread in my spoiler. Which I made it a spoiler because of interviews I've seen but it sure doesn't help with discussion here to have to spoiler everything.

If he doesn't die, I still don't think Q/El are endgame in a romantic way. I'm sure they'll still be brothers of the heart though. They have that kind of love and I don't see that going away.

There is so much I'd love the speculate about but I don't because it all involves stuff from the books and my posts would just contain pink bars. So I don't.

[Hanahope]

Can someone remind me of who Hymen is, and why he showed up (other than to extend out the time before the scoobies talked to Binder?

I too kindof thought it would be a step back for Q to get back together with Alice.  

I'm curious as to how Everett is supposed to become a god, just by hoarding magic.  I presume he doesn't know the details about E-monster or his sister since the Binder was bound up.

So both E-monster and his sister are "gods", but they need bodies to inhabit?  I may have to listen to Frewer's speech again.  

I think it would have been good for Q to tell early-Alice "don't destroy the keys".  Maybe changing the future/past would have been a good thing you think?

[festivus]

36 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Can someone remind me of who Hymen is, and why he showed up (other than to extend out the time before the scoobies talked to Binder?

He was the guy from the episode Be the Penny where Penny had just died and he was in the astral plane with Hyman. Hyman used to go to Brakebills back in the 20s I think it was (or maybe the 30s) and he got stuck in the astral plane when the cottage where his body was got moved when he was in it (AP) so he couldn't find his way back. He's pervy and watches the girls in the shower which Penny called him out on. He also tends to watch everyone like it's a soap opera and he really didn't think about the fact that there's more that he might could do until Penny40 showed up. He hadn't actually spoken to anyone in probably like 80 years. Eta: Just looked it up and it was the 20s so he hadn't spoken to another person in almost a hundred years.

Edited April 5, 2019 by festivus

[Hanahope]

Oh yeah, thanks.  Still wondering why he's showing up again now, other than to take some pages.  Did he know something that's key?  Or just being a pain?

[festivus]

I think he's helping to facilitate the story but I also think his appearance is also more of the telling us to look at the bigger picture like Penny40 has been saying.

Oh, and I think he was the person that made The Binder drop in the mirror world for Alice. I haven't re-watched the epsiode yet so I can't remember if that was mentioned or it's just what I think.

Edited April 5, 2019 by festivus

[treasaigh]

3 hours ago, chrisvee said:

However if that’s not the case and we’re going to Triangleland or back to Qualice, I’m out. It makes no story sense and it offends me personally to be teased with primarily subtextual and offscreen relationships that they won’t pay off onscreen

(deleted stuff)

ETA2 that I would also love Alice to have friends and relationships beyond Q.

ETA3 that if El returns to Qualice kissing he’d better be brave as he promised and tell her to get her lips off his husband.

4

I totally agree with Alice having relationships outside of Quentin.  Nobody's life should be all about just one person.  It would also lessen my fear that Qualice is coming back.

Even if it's not about the relationship, Alice is just kind of out there on her own without strong connections between her and people not named Quentin.  That's not good for the character.  I enjoyed the Katy/Alice scenes.  Back in the day I even enjoyed the Penny/Alice stuff.  They could be using her for the Katy stuff this episode.  Alice and Zelda are pretty good together.  Zelda is actively losing her friends by going against the library.  Maybe she and Alice could hang out together.  (I realize Zelda might have friends that we never see. I'm assuming not for argument's sake.) Maybe put her with Dean Fogg?  He needs someone too.  

I quoted your statement about how Eliot should respond just because it makes me happy.  🙂  I'm tired of people not talking just so we can have more drama.  Maybe he wouldn't yell, but dear God, please have Eliot TALK to Quentin about how he realized he passed up something great with him, and would really like to give it a go.  I do understand if everyone talked to each other 90% of the drama in shows would go away.  I'm just asking for a little bit of talking.

2 hours ago, festivus said:

I know I said this in one of the threads last season after Life In a Day aired, but anyone watching this show with the expectation of certain ships being endgame will probably end up being disappointed. This is not the kind of show where the ships drive it.

(deleted stuff)

If he doesn't die, I still don't think Q/El are endgame in a romantic way. I'm sure they'll still be brothers of the heart though. They have that kind of love and I don't see that going away.

2

After Life in a Day, I totally agreed with you, Festivus.  I just didn't see the show going with their two main male protagonists in a romantic relationship.  That changed for me after Escape from a Happy Place.  They placed the Queliot *romantic* relationship front and center.  It wasn't a joke, it wasn't a throw-away line.  Eliot's greatest regret is not giving it a go.  The show loves Eliot, they aren't going to dangle a happily ever after with his biggest regret and then not give it to him.  So I'm not terribly concerned that the show will eventually go with Queliot.  Especially with the real world implications.  Can you imagine the backlash if they *don't* actually go there?

In Legends of Tomorrow, I don't really care for the Avalance ship, but I realize it's not going anywhere mostly for real-world reasons.  Caveat, of course, is one or the other leaving the show.  I think that's the same thing here.  

I'm just NOT here for the drama of Triangleland.  I'm so over triangles.  It's going to waste time when we could be watching Queliot and the gang facing all the craziness together.  I'm a good person.  I want nice things.  Give me this thing show.

[festivus]

10 minutes ago, treasaigh said:

After Life in a Day, I totally agreed with you, Festivus.  I just didn't see the show going with their two main male protagonists in a romantic relationship.  That changed for me after Escape from a Happy Place.  They placed the Queliot *romantic* relationship front and center.  It wasn't a joke, it wasn't a throw-away line.  Eliot's greatest regret is not giving it a go.  The show loves Eliot, they aren't going to dangle a happily ever after with his biggest regret and then not give it to him.  So I'm not terribly concerned that the show will eventually go with Queliot.  Especially with the real world implications.  Can you imagine the backlash if they *don't* actually go there?

On another board (yes, I've had to start posting elsewhere, I need more discussion!) I just now posted that even though I'm not sure this show is about endgames, I do hope they give the Q and El romance a shot. I want to know if Eliot's feelings/fears about Quentin not really wanting him that way if he had another choice are true. I want to see what happens in this time-line. That being said all I really need is for them to stay the brothers of the heart that they are. Platonic love is so much more interesting to me than romantic but that's just my own personal opinion. I get why ships matter to others.

[chrisvee]

4 hours ago, festivus said:

I know I said this in one of the threads last season after Life In a Day aired, but anyone watching this show with the expectation of certain ships being endgame will probably end up being disappointed. This is not the kind of show where the ships drive it. Book spoiler:

  Reveal spoiler

No one really ends up together there either. It's left open ended on Quentin and Alice. Only Josh and Poppy do but she's nothing like show Poppy.

Even if they get Eliot back, he's going to have to deal with the Monster doing terrible things with his body. To quote Bucky Barnes from the MCU, even if his mind wasn't present when he did horrible things "I still did it".

I said the same thing upthread in my spoiler. Which I made it a spoiler because of interviews I've seen but it sure doesn't help with discussion here to have to spoiler everything.

If he doesn't die, I still don't think Q/El are endgame in a romantic way. I'm sure they'll still be brothers of the heart though. They have that kind of love and I don't see that going away.

There is so much I'd love the speculate about but I don't because it all involves stuff from the books and my posts would just contain pink bars. So I don't.

To clarify — none of my comments about Jason are coming from any source other than the aired episodes and speculation about next eps. I haven’t read the books. I have no spoilers in that regard. 🙂

I’ve watched a lot of genre shows though and my spidey sense is tingling when they suddenly level up characters in emotional maturity and talk about them not being the real protagonist of the story.  It sounds like an exit ramp. 🙂

Also I’m not expecting end game ships. I’m looking for the show to develop characters and relationships are part (not all) of what develops characters. I also think there is some social responsibility around the equal representation on the part of the EPs so that they don’t fall into problematic tropes.

I think it detracts from the quality of the show to have the characters racing from one crisis to another without any interludes of happiness.

This ep to me demonstrates some of the bad plot pacing and confusing characterization that holds this show back from being really great.

Edited April 5, 2019 by chrisvee

[festivus]

4 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

To clarify — none of my comments about Jason are coming from any source other than the aired episodes and speculation about next eps. I haven’t read the books. I have no spoilers in that regard. 🙂

I’ve watched a lot of genre shows though and my spider sense is tingling when they suddenly level up characters in emotional maturity and talk about them not being the real protagonist of the story.  It sounds like an exit ramp. 🙂

Yes the spider sense does tingle even without any outside knowledge. 

Just wanted to clarify that I was just making a general comment that it's hard for me to speculate on this board because a lot of mine contains book knowledge. I wasn't directing it at any poster here.

13 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

I think it detracts from the quality of the show to have the characters racing from one crisis to another without any interludes of happiness.

I agree with you there. Our characters need a damn win that lasts for more than 5 minutes. I don't think we'll get it though.

[chrisvee]

7 hours ago, festivus said:

I agree with you there. Our characters need a damn win that lasts for more than 5 minutes. I don't think we'll get it though.

At least when I watched BtVS back in the day, they got some downtime between apocalypses and relationship disasters.

Edited April 6, 2019 by chrisvee

[AudienceofOne]

I'm surprised people felt like this was an episode that was propping Alice/Quentin. To me it was the opposite. Their relationship is over, they're just being reminded that there was a time when they really cared about each other - although Alice always loved Q more than he loved her. This was just about them reconciling with each other. I got no ship vibes - nor did I feel the writers wanted us to feel them.

It doesn't change my view that this episode was clunky as hell though. 

[Proclone]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

I'm surprised people felt like this was an episode that was propping Alice/Quentin. To me it was the opposite. Their relationship is over, they're just being reminded that there was a time when they really cared about each other - although Alice always loved Q more than he loved her. This was just about them reconciling with each other. I got no ship vibes - nor did I feel the writers wanted us to feel them.

It doesn't change my view that this episode was clunky as hell though. 

Yeah, I didn't feel like it was propping up Alice and Quentin as a couple, either.  Especially since it seemed obvious that present Q's feelings about Alice haven't wildly changed.  I think Q is done with the relationship, at least in the romantic sense.  But I think the point their entire interaction was to let Q know how important he was to Alice and his attempts to completely cut her out of his life aren't really healthy for either one of them.  I also do wonder given the timey-wimey nature of the show (especially of late) if the climax of the season won't involve Q repairing things by potentially changing the past.  He needed to hear Alice tell him that she doesn't care if their relationship goes to pot, she wouldn't give up the now because for her at that moment he is the best thing to ever happen to her. 

[AudienceofOne]

And that scene where Alice kissed Q wasn't about her wanting to get back together. Who wouldn't be tempted in that situation. Your relationship is over and things are really bad and you're suddenly confronted with a version of them that behaves towards you like they used to. It doesn't mean she's still in love with him, just that she was holidaying in the past for a moment. 

[treasaigh]

11 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

And that scene where Alice kissed Q wasn't about her wanting to get back together. Who wouldn't be tempted in that situation. Your relationship is over and things are really bad and you're suddenly confronted with a version of them that behaves towards you like they used to. It doesn't mean she's still in love with him, just that she was holidaying in the past for a moment. 

I don't know.  I was feeling the hints that she wanted to get back with him.  But that's my interpretation.  Specially in their last scene where he fixed the cup, I thought it looked like she was making little false starts towards kissing him.  

Maybe I'm wrong and this is what you say, just two ex's learning how to interact.  Or maybe it's a story about how one partner has a harder time letting go and the awkwardness that arises.  I hope so.

I don't know that I 100% agree that this show isn't about endgame relationships.  This show is all about personal growth and relationships.  Yes, crazy things happen, but the stuff everyone connects to are the relationships.  At the end of the show I expect to see all sorts of ways their stories can end.  I believe some will be alone and some will be in seemingly long term pairings.  I could really see Margo ending up alone, and I actually really like the Josh/Margo pairing.  Or even Katy.  Or Julia.  But I think the characters out Quentin and Eliot want love and relationships too much to be left alone.  Could I be totally wrong and it's more a bittersweet ending?  Of course.  

After years of being beaten up and dragged through the winger, I just can't imagine that the show is going to end up without some payoff, and some of that payoff is going to be committed, long term, relationships.  Where (probably) at least one or more are relationships where the writers have teased and tormented the characters and the viewers for years, the shows OTP.  I think there's a chance that OTP could be Queliot.

Or maybe I'm dreaming and not making sense cause it's way too early to be up on a Saturday!

[kat165]

What does "OTP" stand for?

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, kat165 said:

What does "OTP" stand for?

One True Pairing

I'm embarrassed that I only just realised that season 4, episode 11 was called the 411, which stands for the exposition dump but also the episode number.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't know guys, does this whole season feel a bit like set up for next season?

There might be something to that. They got renewed for a fifth season before the fourth had even aired, and possibly before it started filming, so the writers may have a longer game in mind than in previous seasons. 

I've enjoyed this season but it doesn't feel as strong as last season, because the Quest was such a powerful through-line and this season just doesn't have that. It's more broken up into little pieces and it's hard to see how they'll all come together. I suspect you may be right, and that they won't come together this season at all.

[Terrafamilia]

The shadow puppet exposition had definite Origin of the Slayers vibe to it.

Two words. Banana Phone.

[KDeFlane]

On 4/5/2019 at 2:47 AM, AudienceofOne said:

I did like the Binder plotline and how it successfully intersected the two Godhood plotlines. I also don't remember Matt Frewer giving such poignant, understated performances before. I mean, he's a great actor but he usually goes big - all booming theatrics. This was the opposite of that.

I just wanted to echo my surprise at this performance.  At the first commercial break after The Binder appeared, i told my viewing companion how much I dislike* Matt Frewer as an actor.  By the end, I was so absorbed by the story and his presentation of it, I had forgotten the actor entirely. I now look forward to my usual rewatch, and will pay attention to how he portrays this character and the acting choices he made.  Maybe I should give some credit to the director as well? Good writing never hurts either. (And make-up, and costumes, etc., a perfect storm of talent)

*most** of Frewer's characters are written as over-the-top anyway, so he is cast specifically to do his thing. I think I especially detested his Australian accent on Eureka.  HOWEVER, I give him praise and adoration for one role, that of a man on the mini-series version of "The Stand" whose one line sticks with me: "My life for you," said many times in many slight variations, and with such emotion.

**duh, Max Headroom was gold. It was just so long ago, I had actually forgotten it until now.

[AudienceofOne]

24 minutes ago, KDeFlane said:

*most** of Frewer's characters are written as over-the-top anyway, so he is cast specifically to do his thing. I think I especially detested his Australian accent on Eureka. 

Oh God that accent. I am Australian so Americans doing ridiculous OTT Aussie accents is a bit of a gripe. I cann't think of one actor who's ever pulled it off, which is weird because half of Hollywood is Australians pulling off American ones. 

[kat165]

Thank you, Audience, for the definition of OTP.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poison:

Sweet nothings:

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 4/5/2019 at 8:14 AM, festivus said:

I know I said this in one of the threads last season after Life In a Day aired, but anyone watching this show with the expectation of certain ships being endgame will probably end up being disappointed. This is not the kind of show where the ships drive it. Book spoiler:

  Reveal spoiler

No one really ends up together there either. It's left open ended on Quentin and Alice. Only Josh and Poppy do but she's nothing like show Poppy.

Even if they get Eliot back, he's going to have to deal with the Monster doing terrible things with his body. To quote Bucky Barnes from the MCU, even if his mind wasn't present when he did horrible things "I still did it".

I said the same thing upthread in my spoiler. Which I made it a spoiler because of interviews I've seen but it sure doesn't help with discussion here to have to spoiler everything.

If he doesn't die, I still don't think Q/El are endgame in a romantic way. I'm sure they'll still be brothers of the heart though. They have that kind of love and I don't see that going away.

There is so much I'd love the speculate about but I don't because it all involves stuff from the books and my posts would just contain pink bars. So I don't.

I can agree with a lot of this, and hope they haven't written themselves into a corner regarding Eliot. His character, and Hale himself, have always made the show for me, and I hate the idea of Eliot being "dead" (whatever that ends up meaning in the Magicians universe) or fundamentally broken. To say nothing of being written off the show completely, though I doubt they would do that.

As far as shipping, I'm one for letting sexual tension ride for as long as possible in a show - I may not watch a huge amount of TV, so I don't know, but it always seems to me that actually having characters on a show consummate the relationship, the loss of that tension harms the show as a whole. Maybe this is not so much true of shows with ensemble casts like this one, though. 

I do miss Hale being in so many of the episodes this season, though. Especially given that almost every time he HAS been featured, it's as the Monster. This season has been far more disjointed than the previous one(s), and I don't care as much about the whole library storyline in general, so I hope they bring it back together for next season. It's hard to pinpoint what the difference really is in some ways, but everyone just seems a lot more splintered off into their own storylines even though there obviously is an over-arcing plot. Maybe it's just harder for my old brain to follow all the intrigue.

[kat165]

Thanks, EB, for the vids.

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I can agree with a lot of this, and hope they haven't written themselves into a corner regarding Eliot. His character, and Hale himself, have always made the show for me, and I hate the idea of Eliot being "dead" (whatever that ends up meaning in the Magicians universe) or fundamentally broken. To say nothing of being written off the show completely, though I doubt they would do that.

Oh, I think I didn't clarify because much of my stuff is under spoiler tags but I'm speculating on Quentin dying, not Eliot. I'll tell you that I will be upset if they don't explore Eliot's feelings about the monster doing horrible things with his body. This show moves so fast that I'm scared they may not explore that. Reading interviews about having Eliot have rejecting Quentin be his worst memory was a last minute thing for the writers. So, for a long time they weren't even planning to revisit the Life in a Day story. Which I do not understand because that should have had a huge impact on Q & L. I mean things worked out for them (the writers) anyway even though they weren't thinking about it and I put that down to the strong performances by Jason and Hale. Those two have always played Q & El's love for one another so well.

Edited April 7, 2019 by festivus
Had an extraneous the in there. It bugged me

[iMonrey]

I have a feeling it might turn out to be Kady who's in the elevator. I'm worried the show doesn't really know what to do with her without Penny 40, and Penny 23 is pursuing something with Julia. It doesn't bode well that she's trapped in the poison room and maybe reuniting with Penny 40 in the Underworld is something the writers think will resolve her character. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I have a feeling it might turn out to be Kady who's in the elevator. I'm worried the show doesn't really know what to do with her without Penny 40, and Penny 23 is pursuing something with Julia. It doesn't bode well that she's trapped in the poison room and maybe reuniting with Penny 40 in the Underworld is something the writers think will resolve her character. 

It's a possibility, but it still seems to me that Penny's greeting to whomever it was he saw in the elevator was too nonchalant for it to be directed toward someone he didn't know was dead already, and probably someone he didn't have all that much history with.

[festivus]

Yeah, kinda going back to it being either Victoria or Zelda.

[TiffanyNichelle]

I thought they were positioning Kady to be the head of the hedge witches? It would be a shame to drop that because she doesn't have a romantic relationship with P40 or P23. She's in the same space as Alice but unlike Alice who has no real ties to the group outside of Quentin, Kady at least still has a former friendship with Julia.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I thought they were positioning Kady to be the head of the hedge witches? It would be a shame to drop that because she doesn't have a romantic relationship with P40 or P23.

There really isn't much more they can do with that now that we know Everett is hoarding the magic. The whole point of that was to show that the Library was poisoning hedges with the Dewies. In fact it felt like something they came up with just so Kady would have something to do this season. That mystery is over now though. It might have evolved into some kind of war between the hedges and the Library but now we know it's just Everett and we've circled back to the whole God thing.

I hope it isn't Kady. I really like Jade Tailor. It just seems like a strong possibility at this point.

[AudienceofOne]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

In fact it felt like something they came up with just so Kady would have something to do this season. That mystery is over now though. It might have evolved into some kind of war between the hedges and the Library but now we know it's just Everett and we've circled back to the whole God thing.

If that happened it would completely undermine their point about minor characters, thereby undermining one of the main themes of their show. So if it is Kady I'll be extremely disappointed. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

Isn't the key to whomever is at the door and being greeted by Penny 40:

someone with a secret?

His boss said that Penny's new job was to get secrets people take to their graves. That really doesn't narrow it down to anyone specific. Yet, if Penny 40 plays any role in the other ongoing storylines, that person will give him a secret he can somehow pass on to the other magicians.

The only problem with this possibility is that there is a Penny 40 and a Penny 23. Every one of that group has multiple dead versions of themselves.

I just don't think it is a main character from the "current" timeline (which is just ridiculous that there are multiple timelines. It's such a story cheat). But, don't forget there's also 4 gods who died recently, and, if Penny 40 met Bacchus once, that'd be enough for his reaction.

[JTMacc99]

I went back and rewatched this episode, because there was just a lot of moving parts and time shifting and revealing what's going on at the Library and tasting mint and Julia body snatching and 3rd person Binder talking.  Just a lot of everything.

I rather enjoyed the Alice and Quentin stuff. "You are the best thing that ever happened to me" is one hell of sentence for these two.

For Q, a person who suffers from depression, self worth issues, B minus student, just found out his discipline is repairer of small objects, perhaps it's not the worst thing in the world to hear that he actually had a such a positive impact on a person. And then at the same time given everything that has happened since then, it's probably awful for him to put it in context.  Like I said, it's one hell of a sentence.

For Alice, it's a nice reminder for us about what still kicks around in her heart these days. Love leaves a mark.