S02.E07: Deflectors

[Danielg342]

13 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Or maybe he's just not willing to challenge his writing crew? Does he actually write the episodes for this show?

I know he's written a few (like the Pilot), and the episodes feel like they're al written the same. This one is credited to longtime Family Guy and Futurama writer David A. Goodman.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Nice FX in those wargames scenes.

Oh come on, who is crass enough to re-gift a Valentine's Day present? What if Cassius had run into Ed carrying that cookie bouquet?

Aw, Cassius. Well, it was pretty much guaranteed that getting involved with your boss's ex, someone he's still pining over, wouldn't end happily.

Even if it was Valentine's Day, I don't know about there being yet another romance/relationship-heavy episode. Somebody must be using The Orville to work some stuff out, huh? Still, I think it ended up delivering a powerfully dark message even if a bit heavy-handedly at times.

[iMonrey]

I didn't think this was a very good episode. I've come to accept the show for what it is, neither comedy nor strictly dramatic sci-fi. But that means its tone doesn't lend itself to exploring these kinds of social issues. Furthermore, I feel like we've seen this story done better elsewhere. I think The Orville is better off sticking to more action-adventure oriented fare, which is more suitable for the kind of show this is.

I suppose the episode served the function of helping flesh out the character of Talla, but it's a gambit to base so much of an episode around a new character and a guest character. I think we needed more of a B-plot than Kelly's relationship woes.

I also agree that the show is leaning a little too heavily and too often on the "otherness" of the Moclan culture.

[tennisgurl]

I think the "Moclans are stand ins for everything bad" episodes are because of two things. 

For one thing, this show has followed the classic Star Trek approach to alien cultures where every culture has just one Thing that defines their entire society, and usually exist more to stand in for some social issue than to really be their own well developed culture. Like how the Klingons have "warrior" as their thing, and the Ferengi have "greed" as their thing, etc. Like here, you have the social media planet where thats their thing, the Xelayan are Planet Smug Smart People, the Krill are Planet Religious Extremist, and the Moclans are Planet Toxic Masculinity, and so on and so fourth. The reason the Moclans are usually shown to be bad guys, like many of these alien cultures built this way, is because they're culture isnt based around world building or anything that reflects why real cultures are born, its either to be a joke about how weird they are, or for the show to give us a lecture about some aspect of our society that they dislike that their one trait embodies. Its ridiculous, because no society in the real world is all based around just one stupid trait, especially if that trait is "being an asshole" or something. But its makes for easy heavy handed allegory, so here we are. 

The other thing, and its something pretty consistent to Seth's usual writing that I have noticed in other projects, is that he either has no interest or ability to understand the other side of any issue. Its probably the reason that any culture or person with any religious kind of belief is instantly shown to be, at best, stupid yokels who will hopefully grow out of their beliefs later, and at worst, and more commonly, they're crazed religious fanatics and murderers like the Krill. Either he has no interest in understanding why an intelligent, non violent person would have religious beliefs, or he just cannot fathom why someone intelligent, non violent would also have religious beliefs. Its kind of the same thing here. He thinks that the Moclans are wrong about everything, so he has either no desire to understand why they're culture is the way it is, or he truly cannot fathom why people in the real world have similar beliefs, and cant even conceive of writing them with any kind of nuance. Now granted, I dont agree with with the Moclans about pretty much anything either, from the sexism to the stand in for homophobia, but I also dont really like when whole cultures, even fictional ones, are basically strawmen to be knocked down by the writers/good guys, especially ones that last longer than one episode. 

The show isnt very good at challenging beliefs in various social issues, just yelling at the bad person about why the views they have are bad. The Moclans are backwards and wrong because the writers dont agree with them. A good writing staff can write characters that they disagree with, and still write them as people and not asshole strawmen, and can challenge their views with logic and understanding, but we dont really get that here. I feel like I would like to get more of an understanding of why the Moclans are the way they are, and that would go a long way to actually understanding their society, and even allowing for more tolerance within it for females or heterosexuals, but we havnt gotten much of that yet, beyond the comment about how they needed to be so tough on their harsh planet.

[Driad]

Can anyone explain Moclan reproduction?  If two males can produce a child with both their genes with no fancy DNA tweaking, what is a female?

I would have liked Locar to leave Mocla and find a place elsewhere.  We might have seen him in a future season.

Providing the education and interaction that would help different species get along is probably Kelly's job, since the Union isn't doing much.  It would give her something to do besides drinking with various men and worrying about her personal problems.

[fauntleroy]

It's sort of an inside-out version of the old not wanting to be in a club that would have you as a member. On ST:Disco we are learning about Saru's home world in which his species is periodically 'harvested' by another species. Not clear if they eat them or what (use them as fertilizer?) but yikes worse than the Moclan! How did such a society ever get into the Federation? Answer was apparently that they were warp-capable which seems like that's all it takes? Saru was accepted into Star Fleet only by promising not to complain about the 'arrangement' (ie his people being eaten) due to prime directive - who are we to judge! If ever a Ba'ul showed up and felt a bit peckish would Saru have to let himself be eaten?

It takes a more subtle mind than Seth's to present the rationale for a truly different set of values. So the show is this odd mix of the yuks for which he has an obvious talent and the more serious interpersonal stuff that he mostly seems to use as an opportunity to take jabs at beliefs and practices that he (and most of us) happen to disapprove of. Satisfying, but too easy.

Are values universal, do they 'evolve'? It feels like they do to us - that open mindedness re who you are attracted to for example is obviously a sign of an advanced culture. But it dodges the issue that maybe they are not universal after all. It seems lazy because if you are going to bring up such a subject try to do better than simply be judgy about it. Anybody can do that. Otherwise steer clear?

Also I think Jessica Szohr is a better fit for security than young Halston Sage. Tougher. And how does Yaphit see his console? He should have a chair.

[AnimeMania]

Just now, fauntleroy said:

And how does Yaphit see his console? He should have a chair.

Maybe he has eyes on the tips of his pseudopods, "he pushes buttons with his eyes".

[Raja]

15 hours ago, welnoc said:

I think Bortus should take Klyden back to the homeworld and "divorce" him.

So, do you think this episode was a foreshadowing? The Moclan ship using torpedoes when they weren't supposed to and Ed's & Kelly's conversation about the incompatibility of the two cultures?

I don't really care for Kelly's character but Cassius needs to grow a pair. 

When the torpedos were fired I thought we were already going to the premise of the other Roddenberry show to hit the air. Kevin Sorbo's Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda and the war was about to start. 

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

This.  It is like the Moclans were invited to the club (the Union) but they were called bigoted when they act like themselves.  If their culture was so repulsive to the other members of the club why invite them in to begin with?

She was around Locar for far shorter time and she chose to understand his way of thinking.  Is it too much to expect a senior officer of a Union ship to understand the cultures of its diverse crew members ? 

The Union keeps the Moclans for the same reason western democracies supported dictatorships that called themselves something besides communist.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Raja

[Ottis]

3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I think it boils down to- and I gotta be honest- Seth's limitations as a writer.

And his apparent belief that everyone should like what Seth likes. Billy Joel, old Earth, whatever that movie was, catch phrases from the 80s ... it's the Family Guy spirit on Orville. And it has moved from unrealistic to offputting to highly irritating.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Ottis

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Oh come on, who is crass enough to re-gift a Valentine's Day present? What if Cassius had run into Ed carrying that cookie bouquet?

I assumed that both Ed and Kelly were hoping he would run into Cassius with the regifted cookie bouquet. Cassius just didn't seem to be getting the breakup message otherwise.
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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

For one thing, this show has followed the classic Star Trek approach to alien cultures where every culture has just one Thing that defines their entire society, and usually exist more to stand in for some social issue than to really be their own well developed culture. Like how the Klingons have "warrior" as their thing, and the Ferengi have "greed" as their thing, etc. . . .
and the Moclans are Planet Toxic Masculinity, and so on and so fourth. The reason the Moclans are usually shown to be bad guys, like many of these alien cultures built this way, is because they're culture isnt based around world building or anything that reflects why real cultures are born, its either to be a joke about how weird they are, or for the show to give us a lecture about some aspect of our society that they dislike that their one trait embodies.

Thank you, @tennisgurl for putting this in terms that I could grok, namely, "Planet Toxic Masculinity."
Still, it seems that with 3 Moclans as main characters and another as a guest star--all of whom we have seen to deviate in different ways from their home planet's axioms, we will be getting more nuance than seen on OG Star Treks.

[EllenB]

Jeez, we're only into the second season (and the first season was short), and people are expecting fully-fleshed out back stories for every alien race?  It took several seasons for Trek to get there with, for instance, the Cardassians.  

And this show isn't meant to do that, is it? Isn't it intentionally Trek Lite?  I like the similarities.  I like the differences.  I like the flawed characters who only see others through their own lens, EXACTLY like most of us would do.  

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

The Union keeps the Moclans for the same reason western democracies supported dictatorships that called themselves something besides communist.

That and because they like buying weapons. They wouldn't support the Moclans if they didn't need their weaponry. But it's much safer to have the Moclans as allies you buy from than enemies you fight with.

I guess I'm more of a moral absolutist because I don't care if some of this stuff is Moclan culture; it's wrong. Killing your partner when you want a divorce is wrong to me because I always think killing someone is wrong. Punishing a family when a member commits suicide is wrong to me because I think its always wrong to punish people for someone else being mentally ill. Imprisioning someone for being attracted to a certain gender is wrong. I believe this because I believe who you are attracted to is not something you choose and people shouldn't be killed or punished for that.

I don't care if it's their culture. There are places on earth where you can find cultures who kill gay people or who lock them away. They are wrong and they need to make cultural shifts to be better. Same with the Moclans. None of this "the union should be more understanding" garbage. I have zero problem with the other members of the Union being bothered and upset by a few of the things we've seen from Moclans. Eating someone's tooth in a relationship ceremony is culture; punishing someone for being attracted to a certain gender is wrong..

I also have no problem with Talla chewing out Klyden at the end. Not only did his actions lead to Locar's life being ruined but he also spied on Talla. He made it personal by following her and Locar through the ship so I'm cool with her telling him to keep his distance going forward.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

The Union keeps the Moclans for the same reason western democracies supported dictatorships that called themselves something besides communist.

So easy access to drugs and tropical vacation spots ?? 😉

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I wonder if circumstance around Klyden's birth is the reason that he is so dogmatic about Morclan culture. He was born female and had the surgery to become male which must have caused him to be stigmatized by the people around him and his fear as being seen as an outsider might be driving him to embrace Morclans' cultural beliefs and practices without question. In contrast, Bortus is willing to adjust his beliefs in response to new situations even when they are unexpected and painful. 

From what I remember of the previous episode, few people knew Klyden was born female. He himself did not find that out until he had a medical screening on a Union ship relatively recently. So while his parents might have instilled ultra-conservative beliefs to compensate for his being born female, Klyden himself wasn't compensating for that.

16 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Just making the quick point that I dont think episode would quite have worked with Alara.  It needed someone slightly more mature like Talla. Talla also being a newcomer and a slight outsider herself also worked. 

I kinda wish that the guy had fallen for Kelly. That could have made for some interesting dynamics.

[ketose]

3 hours ago, EllenB said:

Jeez, we're only into the second season (and the first season was short), and people are expecting fully-fleshed out back stories for every alien race?  It took several seasons for Trek to get there with, for instance, the Cardassians.  

And this show isn't meant to do that, is it? Isn't it intentionally Trek Lite?  I like the similarities.  I like the differences.  I like the flawed characters who only see others through their own lens, EXACTLY like most of us would do.  

Frankly, the Cardassians never got that fleshed out. They were both cruel and foolish. Their secret police were infiltrated and their planet was in ruins at the end. Of course, Garak was always supposed to be a little mysterious. We also never knew how Changelings went from being "solids" to shape-shifters.

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

That and because they like buying weapons. They wouldn't support the Moclans if they didn't need their weaponry. But it's much safer to have the Moclans as allies you buy from than enemies you fight with.

I guess I'm more of a moral absolutist because I don't care if some of this stuff is Moclan culture; it's wrong. Killing your partner when you want a divorce is wrong to me because I always think killing someone is wrong. Punishing a family when a member commits suicide is wrong to me because I think its always wrong to punish people for someone else being mentally ill. Imprisioning someone for being attracted to a certain gender is wrong. I believe this because I believe who you are attracted to is not something you choose and people shouldn't be killed or punished for that.

I don't care if it's their culture. There are places on earth where you can find cultures who kill gay people or who lock them away. They are wrong and they need to make cultural shifts to be better. Same with the Moclans. None of this "the union should be more understanding" garbage. I have zero problem with the other members of the Union being bothered and upset by a few of the things we've seen from Moclans. Eating someone's tooth in a relationship ceremony is culture; punishing someone for being attracted to a certain gender is wrong..

I also have no problem with Talla chewing out Klyden at the end. Not only did his actions lead to Locar's life being ruined but he also spied on Talla. He made it personal by following her and Locar through the ship so I'm cool with her telling him to keep his distance going forward.

Moral relativism is an illusion anyway. Saying that Moclans should be allowed their beliefs is a way of keeping them as "the other" as well. If Moclans murdered people who cut in front of them in the chow line, the Union couldn't accept that. Sentient beings have beliefs and believe in them. If they didn't, they'd be sheep.

Klyden decided to gender change Topa. It's morally offensive to the crew, but it's Moclan culture. Klyden stabbed Bortus in the chest. That's a crime, but Bortus didn't press charges. I believe Ed had the authority to kick Klyden off the ship. However, he accepted Bortus' pleas on the matter. This time, however, Klyden was the victim according to Union law, but Talla and the crew knew what Klyden wanted to do. That's why Talla told him to walk the other way. Just because Klyden is acting within the confines of his culture, he is a bad fit for a Union ship. Bortus is actually very evolved for a Moclan and I think he represents the "toxic male" who isn't really toxic. That moral relativism also seems to apply to Moclans to some extent. Bortus does not stab or turn fellow Moclans in as his go-to move.

Edited February 15, 2019 by ketose

[marinw]

3 hours ago, ketose said:

Bortus is actually very evolved for a Moclan

Bortus clearly respects Claire, Kelly, Alara and Talla, which is more that a lot of Moclans are possibly capable of. Bortus is working on being more open-mined. It's difficult for him, but he's trying. I can respect that. I don't see how he can stay married to Klyden and stilll serve on The Orville.

I wonder what Moclan child custody battles are like...

Edited February 16, 2019 by marinw

[TVSpectator]

19 hours ago, Ottis said:

That was Capt Sisko, right? The Moclan captain? UPDATE: Dang, it wasn't Avery Brooks. It sounded just like him. 

Best ep of an uneven season. 

Yes, should have run earlier, and first ep should have run now. 

There should be a drinking game called, "spot the Star Trek Actor" for this show. 

17 minutes ago, marinw said:

Bortus clearly respects Claire, Kelly, Alara and Talla, which is more that a lot of Moclans are possibly capable of. Bortus in working on being more open-mined. It's difficult for him, but he's trying. I can respect that. I don't see how he can stay married to Klyden and stilll serve on The Orville.

I wonder what Moclan child custody battles are like...

Their divorce is one stabbing the other to death. So a child custody battle would probably be a battle to the death or something like that. 

[ketose]

47 minutes ago, marinw said:

Bortus clearly respects Claire, Kelly, Alara and Talla, which is more that a lot of Moclans are possibly capable of. Bortus in working on being more open-mined. It's difficult for him, but he's trying. I can respect that. I don't see how he can stay married to Klyden and stilll serve on The Orville.

I wonder what Moclan child custody battles are like...

The child stabs the parent he doesn't want.

[cambridgeguy]

No matter which side the Orville crew takes people will disagree.  Take a stand and denounce what they view as reprehensible behavior?  What a bunch of self-righteous assholes, traveling around in their ship telling other civilizations what to do.  Step aside and don't interfere?  What a bunch of hypocritical cowards - sure, you talk a big game about being moral and upstanding but when it comes down to it you're happy to stand by and watch others suffer while hiding behind some non-interference clause.

[DavidJSnyder]

8 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I know he's written a few (like the Pilot), and the episodes feel like they're al written the same. This one is credited to longtime Family Guy and Futurama writer David A. Goodman.

MacFarlane is the credited writer on eight of twelve in the first season and I think three so far this year.

[Danielg342]

Just to clarify, I- and I assume others with the same argument- are not suggesting that the Union tolerate the Moclans' bad behaviour. Rather, I want the Union to simply understand why the Moclans are the way they are.

It's problem-solving 101: you can't fix the issue without understanding what is causing the issue in the first place. You can't fix a leaky pipe by randomly slapping tape on it- you have to find the source of the leak and apply the correct plug first.

This method also recognizes that the Moclans are sentient beings who think things through and make choices out of those thoughts. They're not animals that should be "destroyed". No, we need to recognize only some of their thought processes are faulty. Once we understand the thought process that led to the faulty decision, only then can we figure out how to correct it by showing how that process is faulty.

Bottom line is that you have to treat people like people...only then can you hope to see eye to eye.

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

@shapeshifter- do you want to bet we're going to get the "feminist episode" where the Moclans are shown that they don't have to be so male-dominant to make their society work? That seems to be the next thing to ding the Moclans on, and I'm not sure I am comfortable with any more dings against them.

Yeah.  It's not that the Moclans have a great type of society, because obviously they don't.  It's just that the entire planet seems to be set up as a straw man that they can knock down.

I have to admit:  It is kind of clever to use a homosexual race as a metaphor for homophobia though.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Loved the 40's music they played in the NYC scene. Would have been so sweet to hear Vera Lynn singing The white Cliffs Of Dover.  Was the first song an Artie Shaw redition? 

[tennisgurl]

Oh, our old friend cultural relativism comes back again! People in our actual world with cultures that actually exist and have developed naturally over hundreds and thousands of years still haven't totally figured that one out, let alone this made up culture that only exists in a show to either make jokes about their weirdness or to do message shows. 

I am not trying to be Team Moclan here, not in the slightest. Many of their customs, like forcible genital mutilation of girls and heterophobia, are awful and should be challenged. My issue with them is more with the writing itself, and how the crew tends to deal with them. It was what I thought about the gender Moclan episode too. There were very logical reasons they could come up with to explain why having females in their society could be a good thing, or the Moclans could explain why they consider having any female in their species is a bad thing (even if the reasons sucked), and we could get more about them and what their society actually is. You could easily do the same thing here, and you could even have the crew make even MORE good points as to why its good not to be a prejudiced asshole. However, we usually just get the good guys saying "you guys are assholes" and the Moclans saying "that is not our way" over and over forever, and no points are actually made, and we have no clue why these guys are the way that they are. If we knew why they had these beliefs, they could do more to change it, at least in my perspective. There are some people just stuck in their ways and they will never ever change, but there are some people who are capable of change, or at least slightly opening their minds, but you dont really get that by just telling someone their culture is stupid over and over. 

Like I said, they dont feel like a real culture, despite the amount of time we have already spent with them. They exist to be strawmen to be knocked down, or to be weird aliens that do weird alien stuff. Really, the alien stuff is what makes this extra tricky, as writers tend to struggle with writing alien characters who are actually alien, in that they have a truly different way of looking at the world that just does not make sense to humans. Instead, they just give aliens weird cultural quirks or make them represent something about humanity, or just make them humans with funny heads. Which is fine to an extent, as you want characters, including aliens, that your human audience can relate to, but there is also something interesting about aliens that are really truly different. Not evil, just...alien.

[AlphaWoman]

Geez, enough already; he's given too many lines. With the exception of the recent episode where Dr. Finn wants to date him, he's inserted too much, as though the writers feel this need to insert him in there for the heck of it or to meet some quota. His constant questioning of the meaning of common sayings is just getting overdone and too old. It's way overdone, too much attempt to re-create Data. As it is, he sounds just like him. He's also annoying as heck to look at. Please, Seth, give him fewer lines already.

[Danielg342]

I wouldn't mind the Moclans written the way they were if the story about them is that they and the Union are trying to find a way to co-exist. Then, at least, you have the Moclans struggling to rectify their more reprehensible actions and the Union struggling to find some way to tolerate their arrangement, with everything that happens being fit under that context.

The story would be a great way to show the struggle of co-existence, and that tolerance can be possible but only if you work at it.

Instead...all we get are lazy strawmen.

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Aw, Cassius. Well, it was pretty much guaranteed that getting involved with your boss's ex, someone he's still pining over, wouldn't end happily.

Ed had nothing to do with the breakup. Kelly simply didn't want the kind of serious long-term commitment that she knew Cassius did, and she didn't think it was fair to lead him on by continuing to date him when she just wasn't in a place where she was ready or willing to let things get that serious. 

And the fact that Cassius was approaching stalker territory by constantly trying to "win" her back despite her very clear message that she wasn't interested in continuing the relationship (he must gotten his inspiration from every lame 1990s romantic comedy ever made) probably convinced her that she had really dodged a bullet where he was concerned after he finally took the hint and told her he was leaving the ship for good.  Even Talla agreed that Cassius had  crossed a line with the talking plant.

Edited February 16, 2019 by legaleagle53

[marinw]

So did Bortus and Locar divorce without a stabbing? Or was it a non-fatal stabbing? Or are there other ways Moclans can get divorced?

[ketose]

37 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Yeah.  It's not that the Moclans have a great type of society, because obviously they don't.  It's just that the entire planet seems to be set up as a straw man that they can knock down.

I have to admit:  It is kind of clever to use a homosexual race as a metaphor for homophobia though.

The deviant in this episode was super hetero.

I think the Moclans don't like to talk a lot about how they got where they are, even to their own people. So far, the Union doesn't seem to push them into providing that information. I understand that there should be some due diligence, but it's not like the Orville can ask a planetary government to fill out 100 forms and reveal all their horrific secrets. There would never be any first contact. Plus, a successful First Contact episode would be really boring.

[legaleagle53]

4 minutes ago, marinw said:

So did Bortus and Locar divorce without a stabbing? Or was it a non-fatal stabbing? Or are there other ways Moclans can get divorced?

They were never married.  They simply dated for a while until Bortus found out Lorca's true sexual orientation.

[Danielg342]

7 minutes ago, ketose said:

It's not like the Orville can ask a planetary government to fill out 100 forms and reveal all their horrific secrets. There would never be any first contact.

The Orville wouldn't have to do that- there would likely be encyclopedias and other reports on Moclan culture done by researchers that would give them all that information. Just like how in our world we don't need Saudi Arabia to fill out a form- we already have information on them via research.

Also, the Orville's primary function is research, so I'd imagine they'd have volumes on at least the major cultures, like the Moclans.

[legaleagle53]

6 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

The Orville wouldn't have to do that- there would likely be encyclopedias and other reports on Moclan culture done by researchers that would give them all that information. Just like how in our world we don't need Saudi Arabia to fill out a form- we already have information on them via research.

Also, the Orville's primary function is research, so I'd imagine they'd have volumes on at least the major cultures, like the Moclans.

Except that the Union really sucks when it comes to doing its homework prior to First Contact situations.  That's why two anthropologists ended up dead/lobotomized on Planet Reddit and John almost suffered a similar fate there,  There had been a few reports on that planet's culture that had been submitted by the anthropologists before they were arrested, but nobody ever bothered to read them before sending the Orville to investigate what happened to the anthropologists, so the Orville crew had no idea what it was getting into and how many different ways things could go wrong.  So it doesn't surprise me one bit that Ed and the crew were so clueless about Moclan law and society.

Edited February 16, 2019 by legaleagle53

[DarkRaichu]

49 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Except that the Union really sucks when it comes to doing its homework prior to First Contact situations.  That's why two anthropologists ended up dead/lobotomized on Planet Reddit and John almost suffered a similar fate there,  There had been a few reports on that planet's culture that had been submitted by the anthropologists before they were arrested, but nobody ever bothered to read them before sending the Orville to investigate what happened to the anthropologists, so the Orville crew had no idea what it was getting into and how many different ways things could go wrong.  So it doesn't surprise me one bit that Ed and the crew were so clueless about Moclan law and society.

However, the Moclans is not a Fist Contact situation.  One of the Moclans rose in ranks and serves as 3rd in command of a Union ship, suggesting they have been part of the Union for a while.  To me, the Moclans could have worked better as newer member of the Union where the existing members are getting used to them and vice versa.

The average crew may not have too much about Moclans, but Ed & Kelly knowing so little about the culture of the 3rd person in command is a little bit too much for me.  

Edited February 16, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[thuganomics85]

At this point, Ed just needs to have himself and the rest of The Orville crew take a history lesson on Moclans, because apparently no one knows anything about them, and they keep getting surprised over how dated their culture is.  Hell, Gordon is probably a step ahead by simply assuming the violent option for any Moclan tradition!

I did like the idea that for Moclans, having someone being attracted to another of the opposite sex is treated by them like what same sex relationships have been (and still are, sadly) treated by some in the real world.  Felt back for Locar and Keyali, but I wonder if Locar would have been better off trying to stage a fatal accident instead, because while I'm certainly not going to have much sympathy for Khylen and his bigoted ways, there wasn't any way they weren't going to make sure that he was the one who actually did it.  Still, I don't blame Keyali for not wanting anything to do with him, anymore.  And I don't think Bortus is happy either.  You've done messed up, Khylen!

Kelly ends it with Cassius, he suddenly gets creep, he finally just transfers, and Ed/Kelly is likely back on the menu!

I do like seeing more of the smaller characters each episode, like Dann again, and another appearance from that peppy engineer, who was offering cupcakes!

Definitely think they're setting it up for the Union and the Moclans to be at odds in a major way.

[TVSpectator]

31 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh, our old friend cultural relativism comes back again! People in our actual world with cultures that actually exist and have developed naturally over hundreds and thousands of years still haven't totally figured that one out, let alone this made up culture that only exists in a show to either make jokes about their weirdness or to do message shows. 

I am not trying to be Team Moclan here, not in the slightest. Many of their customs, like forcible genital mutilation of girls and heterophobia, are awful and should be challenged. My issue with them is more with the writing itself, and how the crew tends to deal with them. It was what I thought about the gender Moclan episode too. There were very logical reasons they could come up with to explain why having females in their society could be a good thing, or the Moclans could explain why they consider having any female in their species is a bad thing (even if the reasons sucked), and we could get more about them and what their society actually is. You could easily do the same thing here, and you could even have the crew make even MORE good points as to why its good not to be a prejudiced asshole. However, we usually just get the good guys saying "you guys are assholes" and the Moclans saying "that is not our way" over and over forever, and no points are actually made, and we have no clue why these guys are the way that they are. If we knew why they had these beliefs, they could do more to change it, at least in my perspective. There are some people just stuck in their ways and they will never ever change, but there are some people who are capable of change, or at least slightly opening their minds, but you dont really get that by just telling someone their culture is stupid over and over. 

Like I said, they dont feel like a real culture, despite the amount of time we have already spent with them. They exist to be strawmen to be knocked down, or to be weird aliens that do weird alien stuff. Really, the alien stuff is what makes this extra tricky, as writers tend to struggle with writing alien characters who are actually alien, in that they have a truly different way of looking at the world that just does not make sense to humans. Instead, they just give aliens weird cultural quirks or make them represent something about humanity, or just make them humans with funny heads. Which is fine to an extent, as you want characters, including aliens, that your human audience can relate to, but there is also something interesting about aliens that are really truly different. Not evil, just...alien.

Overall, pretty much all aliens in sci-fi are just written to be a "planet of hats" type and it's so common.  The Moclans, The Krills, and Talla's and Alara's people have pretty much followed in this tropes' footprint. For me personally, I would love to see like a Moclan poet or just a pacifist or maybe even an atheist Krill. But I don't think that we will ever see one on the show. Personally, I guess I can just accept that since the Moclans are an important race in this universe the Union needs them. Also, they seem to have better engineers (like Lorcar) and they seem likely to be a good military ally. Especially since the Krill is a very known threat to them and probably to the Moclans. 
 

The only real thing that I do hope is that they do try to explore their themes/message in more detail. It seems that sometimes there are just some random things that it seems that the writers just write each alien to be about one thing and that is it. And it also feels shallow. Like we know that the Moclans are going to be about one thing and the Krills about another. Although, having the Union just look away this incident is probably two-fold reasons:

1. Lorcar was the one that faked his own death AND framed Klyden at the same time. 

2. Lorcar is a member of the Moclan forces and not the Union and the Moclans for whatever reason is a very important ally of the Union. 

So, the reason why Mercer told Kelly to look the other way was probably more about being practical and just letting the Moclans deal with Lorcar. Also, the Union also probably has a "no interference" policy when it comes to alien races and since Moclans are just allies and not actually directly part of the Union, this rule probably applies here (basically the Star Trek Prime Directive). 

[Yeah No]

23 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Speaking of racism, I am troubled by the one "race" on the show that is represented exclusively (thus far) by African-American (right?) actors being so offensive. 
Stargate initially had this problem too, but then they cast a wider variety of ethnicities as Goa'uld, including some Caucasians.

I think one of the Moclans in the early scene when the shuttle came aboard the Orville might have been played by a white actor, but I'm not sure.  He would be the only one so far, though.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

However, the Moclans is not a Fist Contact situation.  One of the Moclans rose in ranks and serves as 3rd in command of a Union ship, suggesting they have been part of the Union for a while.  To me, the Moclans could have worked better as newer member of the Union where the existing members are getting used to them and vice versa.

The average crew may not have too much about Moclans, but Ed & Kelly knowing so little about the culture of the 3rd person in command is a little bit too much for me.  

I agree, except Star Trek homage and what Kirk didn't know about Vulcan and Spock 

[ganesh]

12 hours ago, Raja said:

The Union keeps the Moclans for the same reason western democracies supported dictatorships that called themselves something besides communist.

I think that's apt. When the Orville went to the Moclan planet for the trial about the gender of the daughter, it was made clear that they are basically the weapons production hub for the Union. You could see when they were flying in that the planet is largely industrial.

I liked the take in the episode. It was a little heavy, but I'm ok with it. I liked that it was with the non-humans. 

We've talked here a lot about the world building, and there's obvious comparisons to Trek. That's fine. I'm not a Trekkie, but I know enough about it. I feel that on this show, the Union is still really early in development, whereas the Federation had been around a while when TOS started. That's more interesting to me. I can see why the Union is looking to expediency with the Moclans right now, and why a low level ship like the Orville is cleared for a first contact situation. 

I liked how Kelly told Gordon to dial it down because he was too good piloting the ship. I liked the exchange with "I humped a statue that almost got me killed...Bortus had porn that almost crashed the ship."

[ganesh]

On 2/14/2019 at 8:03 PM, kariyaki said:

Kelly still can't answer the "do you love Ed?" question.

I don't like the 'will they or won't they' plot, but to be fair to the show, in the opening scene, Kelly clearly places her job with more importance over her relationship. I'm the same way in my real life, so I don't have a problem with that. 

On 2/14/2019 at 8:29 PM, phalange said:

I think it's obvious Kelly's still in love with Ed even if she can't admit it.

That's fine though. That doesn't mean they should be in a relationship. I would like the show go more in that direction.

[GaT]

The conversation between Bortus & Gordon about the tooth made me laugh my ass off.

[Bort]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

I don't like the 'will they or won't they' plot, but to be fair to the show, in the opening scene, Kelly clearly places her job with more importance over her relationship. I'm the same way in my real life, so I don't have a problem with that. 

That's fine though. That doesn't mean they should be in a relationship. I would like the show go more in that direction.

I agree. As much as I love to bust on Ed and Kelly about how they're clearly still in love with each other, it doesn't mean that I don't think Kelly is right and that they need to maintain professionalism while he is in command over her.

[aemom]

23 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

She has more or less admitted it to Ed every time she has reminded him why they can never be romantically involved with each other as long as they're Captain and First Officer aboard the same ship.

This argument of Kelly's has been bothering me for a long time.

Ed is still in love with her and will always be in love with her. Does Kelly really think that because they are not married or dating, that he will be able to command her to her death or sacrifice her life any differently than if they were married? 

I truly think not. They would have to be on different ships. They should just get back together already. Perhaps the show is going that way since they had Kelly break up with Cassius.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Ed had nothing to do with the breakup .

Maybe not overtly.

Ed and Kelly continuing to have feelings for each other that was always under the surface pretty much guaranteed messiness. Cassius should've never stepped into that potential mess. Yes, he took the breakup badly and behaved badly. I don't think Kelly and Ed are completely innocent though because they tacitly maintain each other as backup options even if they don't want to admit out loud. I won't be surprised if they end up back in bed together before the season ends.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Joimiaroxeu

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, Raja said:

I agree, except Star Trek homage and what Kirk didn't know about Vulcan and Spock 

That's true.  Kirk had never even heard of pon farr and what it entailed before Spock went through it, even though the Federation should have known about it for at least a century.

[ketose]

10 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Overall, pretty much all aliens in sci-fi are just written to be a "planet of hats" type and it's so common.  The Moclans, The Krills, and Talla's and Alara's people have pretty much followed in this tropes' footprint. For me personally, I would love to see like a Moclan poet or just a pacifist or maybe even an atheist Krill. But I don't think that we will ever see one on the show. Personally, I guess I can just accept that since the Moclans are an important race in this universe the Union needs them. Also, they seem to have better engineers (like Lorcar) and they seem likely to be a good military ally. Especially since the Krill is a very known threat to them and probably to the Moclans. 
 

The only real thing that I do hope is that they do try to explore their themes/message in more detail. It seems that sometimes there are just some random things that it seems that the writers just write each alien to be about one thing and that is it. And it also feels shallow. Like we know that the Moclans are going to be about one thing and the Krills about another. Although, having the Union just look away this incident is probably two-fold reasons:

1. Lorcar was the one that faked his own death AND framed Klyden at the same time. 

2. Lorcar is a member of the Moclan forces and not the Union and the Moclans for whatever reason is a very important ally of the Union. 

So, the reason why Mercer told Kelly to look the other way was probably more about being practical and just letting the Moclans deal with Lorcar. Also, the Union also probably has a "no interference" policy when it comes to alien races and since Moclans are just allies and not actually directly part of the Union, this rule probably applies here (basically the Star Trek Prime Directive). 

In "About a Girl" there was the revelation that one of the greatest Moclan poets was female.

In this episode, Talla offered Locar sanctuary aboard the Orville, but he refused. I would assume that Ed would have gotten involved if Locar requested sanctuary. Of course, if the Moclans chose a military response, the Orville would be dead meat.

[Raja]

10 minutes ago, ketose said:

In "About a Girl" there was the revelation that one of the greatest Moclan poets was female.

In this episode, Talla offered Locar sanctuary aboard the Orville, but he refused. I would assume that Ed would have gotten involved if Locar requested sanctuary. Of course, if the Moclans chose a military response, the Orville would be dead meat.

Their response during the Captains meeting was close to that of the astrology planet's leadership. And the earlier torpedo during the test did make me flash to the opening of Andromeda when the Nietzschean's  started a war out of nowhere.

[fauntleroy]

21 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Maybe he has eyes on the tips of his pseudopods, "he pushes buttons with his eyes".

This is gross and probably correct!

 Imagine the dreck he picks up sliding around the floor all day. A living slime dustmop that's our Yaphit - eeeuw!

Still, a more fun alien, underused.The hetero-Moclan could have gone to him for advice, he is a Ladies Man after all.

[SimoneS]

Another reason to love these Moclan episodes, the interesting thoughtful debate that follows on the episode thread.

I agree with the comments that the Vulcans set the precedent that you might know not a lot or only what they want you know about your closest allies even after a century. The Vulcans were extremely secretive. If Spock hadn't joined Star Fleet, the Federation would have never known about Pon Farr or the other Vulcans customs. They never even warned the Federation that the Romulans were their distant relatives.

I don't think the cultural differences between the human dominated Federation or Union and their non-human members can be easily resolved by anthropologists or just practicing cultural relativism. They can be allies, but have different valuable roles. After all the Vulcans never followed Spock's lead joining Star Fleet en masse. Rather they served as the scientific and diplomatic backbone of the Federation. Same with the Klingon Empire which became the Federation's most important military ally. Moclans can be the ally that provide the Union with critical military weapons. Of course, Bortus serving in the Union fleet will continue to be source of conflict as these situations arise.

Edited February 16, 2019 by SimoneS

[AnimeMania]

I thought the way that Kelly broke up with Cassius was kind of wrong. I think they broke up because he might want kids someday and she didn't, anyway, if the person you are breaking up with is acting rational and non-threatening, they deserve a better explanation than "I am breaking up with you" and then you walking away and never talking to them again. I remember Isaac doing something similar and everybody thinking he was a horrible person. Kelly should at least have given Cassius a chance to change his position, attitude, behavior, physical defect that caused her to break up with him or at least clearly stated why she no longer wanted to be with Cassius. This would help with his self esteem and probably keep him from spreading rumors and dirty holograms involving a certain high ranking space captain.

[Emma9]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Kirk had never even heard of pon farr and what it entailed before Spock went through it, even though the Federation should have known about it for at least a century.

I would put pon farr on the level of Moclans hatching a girl every now and then, or incidences of heterosexuality - something they actively try to hide from outsiders whenever possible. However, the 'divorce proceedings' issue seems like pure cultural miscommunication - Klyden didn't seem to be under the impression that he'd face any repercussions for stabbing Bortus, nor did he make an effort to hide it. If there are any Union ambassadors on Moclus, I'd think they'd hear tell of this particular method of conflict resolution before long - and a captain with a mated Moclan couple on his ship should certainly be made aware of it.