S14.E08 : Byzantium

[sarthaz]

Jack is not their son. Jack is not their son. Jack is not their son.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Jack is not their son. Jack is not their son. Jack is not their son.

Of course, "family don't end with blood."  :) 

[sarthaz]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Of course, "family don't end with blood."  :) 

LOL. STFU :)

[bethy]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Didn't this scene take place before Cas's encounter with the Entity/Shadow?  They were sitting around after Jack died apparently celebrating his very short life.  Having lost people it takes a few days before you can laugh about their lives.  In the minutes afterward you are usually pretty stunned.

Right - this was the scene I was talking about. 

[devlin]

No sam he is not your kid! You didn’t raise him. He is a young man you have known for only two years

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, devlin said:

No sam he is not your kid! You didn’t raise him. He is a young man you have known for only two years

They've known him literally his entire life.  It's not like he's actually 20 years old or whatever. He's two years old and they've known him for two years.  I think the "son" thing was overblown, but they raised him inasmuch as anyone did.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They've known him literally his entire life.  It's not like he's actually 20 years old or whatever. He's two years old and they've known him for two years.  I think the "son" thing was overblown, but they raised him inasmuch as anyone did.

They really didn't raise him. He emerged fully grown.  It seems the person who had the most influence on Jack was Clark when he shared his candy.

I know the show likes to pretend it never happened but Sam used Jack for selfish reasons and Dean wanted nothing to do with him.  He's such a ball of precious nougat I don't think anything would have really made a difference. 

I could see Sam, and Dean looking at Jack as a little brother but every "son" just feels for forced. 

[FlickChick]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They've known him literally his entire life.  It's not like he's actually 20 years old or whatever. He's two years old and they've known him for two years.  I think the "son" thing was overblown, but they raised him inasmuch as anyone did.

Actually, no. I'll give the Ice Queen and her grandpa-toy the honor of raising him in the AU for at least a fourth of that time.

[Ninamags]

Which brilliant writer/producer/director said that they give the fans what they want albeit in unexpected ways?

So if some factions were hoping for Sam and Dean to get a child and raise him, this is an interesting (sort of) way to go about it 

So now that there was a marginal increase in ratings, TPTB  will now think that they have to keep the manbaby sick or in peril all the time. 

Eh, I got nothing else. 

[juppschmitz]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

0 %.  Which, to be fair, goes for Sam, too. Cas, I might give 5 %, due to his previous connection to the Empty-Keeper which was featured.   

Seriously, I don't know why they expect long term fans to keep watching. Which, who knows, they more than likely don't. This show seems more and more geared towards a much younger audience who are happy enough to ~feel the feels~ at the drop of a hat. Or at the mention of nougat or son/dad(s). 

Sorry, but none of that cuts it anymore for me.

I'm too old for this shit.

[PAForrest]

Everything this season feels like padding, and this episode in particular felt like the writer could only cobble together about 20-25 minutes of content, so it was stretched out by crap like the drinking scene and the scene in the woods talking about Sam's criminally poor wilderness skills, stuff like that. I don't know the point of this episode, or any episode this year. The producers are clearly sans ideas, they know it, but they don't care because they also know the remaining fan base will just tune in for the guys reading from the phone book at this point - which I fully expect to happen. And when it does I will see no difference in 42 minutes of phone book droning versus anything else I've seen this year.

Of course there's no investment in anyone dying because everyone has died a gazillion times and they always come back. That was the worst trope the show ever produced.

And OMG given the overdramatic wailing from the guys about their shared baby, I fully expected to see them all lactating.

I don't understand this Empty plot device at all. Nor do I really care.

More annoying canon retcon with the sudden ability to slice and dice souls. And shouldn't Jack be experiencing the exact same consumption problem given that his grace is still gone? I'm confused on that point - if there even is one.

The good stuff I got out of this one was seeing Veronica Cartwright showing up on an episode of Supernatural, because VC showing up anywhere is a cause for smiles. And Anubis was a cool though completely ironic "accountant" character given how The Good Place had pretty much the same exact plot airing opposite the episode. Psych.

But I wish Dean would lose Mary's number. For Chuck's sake, dude, when are you going to get that she's just not that into you?

Edited December 7, 2018 by PAForrest

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I must have a heart that's two sizes too small.

If your the grinch, so am I.  But, unlike the grinch my heart didn't grow three sizes.  Its remained completely closed.  Why should I care if Jack is sick and dying.  I knew he'd be back by the end of the episode.   Not even Jensen, who can make me care bout things I don't care about, was able to move me this week.   It was just so much over wrought Melodrama that was designed to force feels.   I felt feels but it wasn't awww sweet precious  nougat, it was worry that my eyes were permanently going to stick from the amount of times they rolled to the back of my head.

Same with Cas's deal.  Why should I care or be worried?  There will just be some last minute fix or he'll be back five minutes after he dies.  (Unless they want to explore how Cas's death effects Dean for a third time) then he'll be back after a few eps. 

As for the "wake" scene.  I really felt like I was watching J2M rather than Sam, Dean and Cas.  Its good that the cast gets along so well and they can have fun but it took me right out of the scene.  I felt like I was watching the guys goofing off after a day of filming rather than three "dads" morning a son.  They need a director who can take charge.   The goofing off is starting to effect what's happening on screen.

The Aunbis concept was cool and I'd like to see Deans' abacus.  He does so much good but he's so weighed down by guilt and thinks he's poison. 

As expected no follow up to Dean's wonky vision.  Why isn't he worried. 

Dean just give it up.  Mary certainly didn't mean it when she said all he had to do was call. 

I'm hoping Michael took control of Dean and actually offed both her and Bobby when he went to visit and Mary and Bobby are actually dead.  (But who cares, I'm sure they'll be back).

With that missing piece of Jack's soul, we're in for the back half of the season being all about wobbie manbaby Sue.    If he goes bad, it certainly won't be his fault.  The character is such a waste of space.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

More annoying canon retcon with the sudden ability to slice and dice souls. And shouldn't Jack be experiencing the exact same consumption problem given that his grace is still gone? I'm confused on that point - if there even is one.

This entire thing reminded me of a plot device on Vampire Diaries. For Seasons there was a very clear rule: you could either be a witch or a vampire, never both, meaning once a witch turned, she/he lost their magic. But when the writers wanted to have witchpires, they introduced the concept of "siphoner witches", those who didn`t have magic on their own but could suck it out from other witches and places and then do magic themselves. And once they turned into vampires, the writers made up the loophole that since vampires are magical creatures, those former witches could perpetually suck the magic out of themselves and thus do magic all the time, keeping the powers of both species ad infinitum. They called them "heretics". 

So when Lily explained how Jack could basically perpetually keep himself going by using the, lets be real, magical powers of his own soul, my first thought was "OMG, hey turned him into a heretic, are you fucking kidding me?" So nope, I think this was supposed to be SPN`s little loophole for Jack and the magical powers of part of his soul now keep him going and continously heal the problem of his non-existant grace. Optional if he still has powers. Probably depending on the plot how often and how strong they are. 

[PAForrest]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

As for the "wake" scene.  I really felt like I was watching J2M rather than Sam, Dean and Cas.  Its good that the cast gets along so well and they can have fun but it took me right out of the scene.  I felt like I was watching the guys goofing off after a day of filming rather than three "dads" morning a son.  They need a director who can take charge.   The goofing off is starting to effect what's happening on screen.

The fact that there was no dialog and the guys were clearly told to wing it only adds to the feeling of being taken out of the episode, and the scene being more along the lines of a BTS outtake. So yeah, I agree, that was all J2M and almost nothing to do with the characters most of the time. But, hey, obviously less for Meredith to have to write, 'cuz writing is hard, especially for this staff.

[FlickChick]

And if, by chance, you didn't get that you were watching Soapernatural, they added the god-awful music score to the OTT drama. I can't believe that these two guys are the same ones that brought us great music cues during the first nine or ten seasons. What else could TPTB possibly ruin for us????

[catrox14]

The only answer I have for the Empty Keeper to be evil is that it's really Lucifer given the whole not Terminator thing with the red eyes rising out of the goo.

It didn't seem to be particularly evil with Cas, just mean and doing what it  could to get him to stay in the Empty.

[trudysmom]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

But I wish Dean would lose Mary's number. For Chuck's sake, dude, when are you going to get that she's just not that into you?

Thanks, PAFORREST, I needed to laugh today, that was great.

[MysteryGuest]

Just watched the episode.  I agree that the sap factor was pretty high in this one.  I think it's probably just that it's been done way too many times now, and we know it doesn't stick.  They need to stop pretending to kill off main characters.  And because the writing has been so poor for the past few seasons, we don't ever get to see the little interactions between the characters that show us their bond.  We're always left to fill in the blanks whether in regard to Jack, or to Mary's relationship with her sons.  They really do a crap job at that and have for a while now.

I liked the continuity of revisiting the Keeper of the Empty storyline, but it doesn't make much sense to me.  Since when does he actually go out and hunt down people?  I thought he never woke up, which is why he was so annoyed with Cas that he finally expelled him.  So now he wants Cas back, but on his terms, and only when it will make him suffer the most?  Why exactly do angels and demons go to the same place, first of all?  Does it make sense that angels would go somewhere even worse than Hell?  And if the Keeper is awake and running around, then why isn't he aware that Lucifer is awake?  I'm sticking with my theory that it wasn't Lucifer we saw last week, it was the Keeper being awakened.  

The storylines are so convoluted now, and they just don't need to be.  Just give us the characters we enjoy, behaving as they're supposed to, and doing something interesting.  I swear they must start with an ending for the season, and then work their way back from that.  It's mind-boggling sometimes.

[Casseiopeia]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

0 %.  Which, to be fair, goes for Sam, too. Cas, I might give 5 %, due to his previous connection to the Empty-Keeper which was featured.   

I get so tired of this trend during the Dabb years of our heros standing around watching other characters do stuff.

[ZennyKenny]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As for the "wake" scene.  I really felt like I was watching J2M rather than Sam, Dean and Cas.  Its good that the cast gets along so well and they can have fun but it took me right out of the scene.  I felt like I was watching the guys goofing off after a day of filming rather than three "dads" morning a son.  They need a director who can take charge.   The goofing off is starting to effect what's happening on screen.

Agreed. And it's such a shame, because this is normally the kind of scene that I long for. But you can't do that under these circumstances. It would fit better if this were their last night before a huge battle. But not right after one of their own just died. I wanted to love it, but it ended up completely taking me out of the show.

[MysteryGuest]

The wake scene was just another cheat, IMO.  Instead of getting meaningful dialogue, we get another musical interlude.  I hate those.  It's just lazy, and our current crop of writers use those types of scenes all the time.  I swear they're incapable of writing dialogue.  Unless Jensen and Jared have an actual maximum word count per episode, what the hell...tell a story!

Edited December 8, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[sarthaz]

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I get so tired of this trend during the Dabb years of our heros standing around watching other characters do stuff.

Especially when those characters are boring at the best of times, and annoying most of the time.

[sarthaz]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Veronica has come along way from her Violet Rutherford days (Lumpy's sister).

I am kind of torn when it comes to Lily going to heaven.  She did some really horrible shit,  and at the end she did one nice thing to save Jack.  Now she ends up in heaven?

Should a person who spends a life time of being a horrible human being really expect that one selfless act at the end erases all sins?

People screw up in life and treat others horribly all of the time and in most cases deserve forgiveness, but I also believe that there are some acts that are unforgivable.

The whole abacus thing didn't make sense with this philosophy, but one of the tenets of Christianity is that there isn't a weighted balance of good and bad. You can't perform acts to earn God's favor, and the parable of the workers in the vineyard illustrates that even those who come to Him at the very end receive the same Kingdom of Heaven as those who've been with Him their whole lives. It's an interesting concept that doesn't mesh with our human constructs of "fairness" and "justice", but Lily's final selfless act changing everything is consistent with that theology. The problem here is in the writing, IMO, not the philosophy. You can't claim that Heaven and Hell are determined by a literal mathematical calculation and then go all Jesus-y at the last minute.

[Pondlass1]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Now she ends up in heaven?

Remember - we're watching a soap... not the Supernatural of yesteryear.  She'd been carted off to Hell under Kripke.  

The character was pretty interesting.  Everyone's so puddle deep and sappy now on this show.  And it all must end in a nice pink bow.

[companionenvy]

There were, to be fair, good elements of this episode. The actors were, as usual, trying their best to wring some actual emotion out of the situation, and I found both Jack's reunion with Kelly and Lily earning heaven affecting. 

But one big problem, as others have noted, is that death of core characters has ceased to mean anything on SPN, since it is so obvious they'll be back. I mean, Sam last died late last season, and was back before the end of the episode - yet, of course, we were still treated to grieving Dean first, and as good as Jensen is, there are only so many times I can watch these people go through the exact same emotional beats. It doesn't help that - even as someone who likes Jack and what he adds to the show -- I thought the way they were playing it was overwrought. Jack is a decent kid, and I buy that Sam, Dean and Cas have come to genuinely care for him and would mourn his death. But the idea that losing him is like losing a child is laughable. Maybe that dynamic could have worked with Cas, but the two just didn't spend enough time together. Jack has been around for, what, a year and a half, and for a significant amount of that time, he was in alt-world. Dean, especially, hasn't interacted positively with him that much - he hated him during the early days in the bunker, was gone for a couple of months while Michael was possessing him, and then apparently spent some time after that mostly holed up in his room. So again, I buy that this is a loss for him, but not that this is a worse or even as bad a loss as many of the others he has suffered.

The way they brought him back adds to the problem. Splitting off a piece of his soul sounds like an appallingly bad idea, and it was too easy in any case. The early resurrections on this show had a logic to them - having established the rules of demon deals, the idea that Dean could trade his soul to bring Sam back to life made sense, and then Sam and Dean's respective roles in the apocalypse made other resurrections more or less work. Crucially, it also wasn't something that left us with the question of why they didn't just save everyone they had lost using the same methods: the resurrections were either highly specific to Sam and Dean, or required a major price. In this case, Sam, Dean and Cas basically look for a magic spell to bring Jack back because they are sad, even though they've lost other people who they haven't tried to bring back. Yeah, Jack's a Nephilim, but at this point, there have been enough McGuffins capable of bringing people back from the dead that it is hard to avoid the thought that if they had just tried hard enough, there's no reason Kevin or Bobby or Charlie couldn't have been brought back as well.

Then there's the Empty. Again, in a vacuum, the empty keeper was effectively creepy. But within the SPN mythos, it just doesn't make sense that this would be a malevolent entity, or that angels would be destined for what is being presented as a horrible fate. Why would Chuck design things that way? And, of course, this means that again we have one of the team in mortal peril, with bonus secrets and lies.

[ILoveReading]

It was so obvious, and it didn't fit with the rest of the episode.

[Wateroflife]

When watching, I l thought that Lily used the last sliver of her soul to ressurect Jack so his soul could stay intact and that sacrifice is why she got into heaven. I admit my attention was wandering at that point, but if not then why did she drop dead just at that moment? However, that doesn't really make sense either because the show has established that you don't need a soul to be alive. *shrug*

Edited December 9, 2018 by Wateroflife

[7kstar]

On 12/7/2018 at 6:31 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I liked the continuity of revisiting the Keeper of the Empty storyline, but it doesn't make much sense to me.  Since when does he actually go out and hunt down people?  I thought he never woke up, which is why he was so annoyed with Cas that he finally expelled him.  So now he wants Cas back, but on his terms, and only when it will make him suffer the most?  Why exactly do angels and demons go to the same place, first of all?  Does it make sense that angels would go somewhere even worse than Hell?  And if the Keeper is awake and running around, then why isn't he aware that Lucifer is awake?  I'm sticking with my theory that it wasn't Lucifer we saw last week, it was the Keeper being awakened.  

The storylines are so convoluted now, and they just don't need to be.  Just give us the characters we enjoy, behaving as they're supposed to, and doing something interesting.  I swear they must start with an ending for the season, and then work their way back from that.  It's mind-boggling sometimes.

Perhaps they've bought the idea that young people have a very short attention span and don't really pay attention to the details, just follow the big points, barely.  Although I get it's all supposed to tug at my heartstrings and make me nervous about when this will happen, but I'm not that worried.  If Misha was moving on, the big story with Cas is how much he needs the boys and Jack.  I should be invested, worried, nervous but I'm not.  They'll just write the scene so it fits with however they want to bring him back making everything that happened before pointless.

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The way they brought him back adds to the problem. Splitting off a piece of his soul sounds like an appallingly bad idea, and it was too easy in any case. The early resurrections on this show had a logic to them - having established the rules of demon deals, the idea that Dean could trade his soul to bring Sam back to life made sense, and then Sam and Dean's respective roles in the apocalypse made other resurrections more or less work. Crucially, it also wasn't something that left us with the question of why they didn't just save everyone they had lost using the same methods: the resurrections were either highly specific to Sam and Dean, or required a major price. In this case, Sam, Dean and Cas basically look for a magic spell to bring Jack back because they are sad, even though they've lost other people who they haven't tried to bring back. Yeah, Jack's a Nephilim, but at this point, there have been enough McGuffins capable of bringing people back from the dead that it is hard to avoid the thought that if they had just tried hard enough, there's no reason Kevin or Bobby or Charlie couldn't have been brought back as well.

Then there's the Empty. Again, in a vacuum, the empty keeper was effectively creepy. But within the SPN mythos, it just doesn't make sense that this would be a malevolent entity, or that angels would be destined for what is being presented as a horrible fate. Why would Chuck design things that way? And, of course, this means that again we have one of the team in mortal peril, with bonus secrets and lies.

This is a major issue.  Did Chuck hate his angels and demons so going to the empty was worth whatever they did for him?  If the empty hated noise why would he want Cass back when he made his life miserable and he kicked Cass out so he could rest.  Perhaps losing one angel has messed with his/her mind and now he has to torture to fix it all.  But it wasn't set up well and I find myself not really caring one way or another.  Although I will agree it was part of the best stuff for this ep.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It was so obvious, and it didn't fit with the rest of the episode.

I just went to a funeral today, my goal to make the family laugh and I don't know them.  But I had worked with my coworker for 30 years so I get how telling stories they haven't heard can help. 

This scene could have worked but it was too out of character for me to believe it.  A strong director could have fixed it.  I remember a story from Jack Lemon, he had a best friend that was one of the best directors of his time.  He wasn't directing the film.  He asked him to watch the scene.  It was a shower scene.  The director told Jack that it was the funniest piece of acting he had ever seen Lemon do.  But it had to go.  It did nothing for the plot and hurt the movie.  Had they gone with the boys and Cass showing themselves to be so serious and then slowly cracked one smile leading up to "Hey do you remember when" then it could have worked.  I would have seen it as the boys and Cass.  But I didn't.  I saw Jensen, Jared, and Misha having a fun time together.  Although I would love to see more of that it has to fit the story.  This looked like clowning around and they decided to put it in the show.  Why?

 

IA with @Sue B that there were positive moments but I'm working to make it work.  VC did a great job and I wanted her not to go to hell, so that part worked for me.  I just wished I felt that way about the entire ep.

[BabySpinach]

23 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

IA with @Sue B that there were positive moments but I'm working to make it work.  VC did a great job and I wanted her not to go to hell, so that part worked for me.  I just wished I felt that way about the entire ep.

Lily Sunder's story was the most effective aspect of the episode. For all the histrionics and teary farewells/hellos that were lavished upon Jack, Lily's understated mini-narrative was far more potent. Dean actually gave her a hard time at first and made her answer for her true motives, and her little character arc then concluded with her decision to do something kind for others without any thought of reward. I also really liked that Anubis' simple "Say hello to your daughter for me" served as the end of Lily's story. We didn't need to see the reunion itself, and this subplot was far less sickeningly sappy for it. Not everything needs to be on the nose to be poignant, DABB & CO...

[SueB]

Second watch thoughts.  SO MANY. In fact so many that I’m breaking up my comments into multiple posts so people can read only what they’re interested in.

 

Warning: I love the show and all the characters, and I while I was moved the first time around, I was bawling the second time. If reading that is not your bag… move along… these are not the droids you’re looking for.

 

This post is about AWESOME characterization.  Bottom Line Up Front: Watching the second time, I saw so many things that demonstrated Meridith Glynn REALLY knows these guys.  Notes below highlight my character thoughts this episode and why I thought the characterization was spot on. This is long ass post, I’ll summarize periodically for the skimmers.

 

Jack: As this was Jack’s first death, there was a lot of focus on him this episode.  In the first watch, I though Jack was at peace with dying because he was glad he didn’t turn evil. But on second watch, I think he was ALWAYS hoping to see his mother.  I don’t think he knew that would happen for sure, but I think part of his acceptance was the hope that he would see Kelly again. He really is emotionally attached to her.  Jack is mostly an amalgam of the Sam, Dean, and Cas but I think his inherent optimism comes from Kelly. As a nephilim, I’m going to assume that he felt he “knew” her because he was able to sense much about her while still in the womb. I thought it was fitting that he would turn to Sam to ask ‘what happens next… for someone like me?’  Sam would be the one to know in Jack’s mind. Of course we he asks that question, you know that he’s afraid, despite saying he’s ‘okay’ with what is happening. So this is when I start the ugly crying. And Sam KNOWS Jack is afraid. I love that Jack’s best memory was the drive to Dodge City with his three Dads. Learning a new skill from Dean with Team Free Will banter as background vocals.  Of course as soon as he realizes he’s in Heaven he’s off to find Kelly. I think Jack could have been happy in a Heaven with Kelly. I’m not sure how Heaven works when you are ‘aware’. Maybe your awareness fades after time. But I think Jack would choose to stay with Kelly rather than Memorex. I also loved him trying to protect Kelly and then Cas from The Shadow. So outmatched but fighting anyway.  And he was also smart enough to doubt using his soul but selfless enough to know that he was doing the right thing by going back. I liked how when Sam shoved the paper in his hand and said “read this”, Jack did it without hesistation. Personally I think Alex Calvert came in as a strong actor, and in this episode he showed a wide range from endearing to smart to brave to trusting. In sum, I found Jack’s characterization continues to be an amalgam of Sam, Dean, Cas AND Kelly.  I could see the influence of each but still he’s uniquely “Jack”. A good soul.

 

Sam: As I watched Sam, I felt like this was really a new experience for him.  Sam has lost those he loves, but this felt like Sam’s first foray into parenthood. Kevin DID feel more like a little brother, and Charlie a little sister.  But Jack has imprinted on all the boys and Sam embraces that. Simultaneously, he looked to Dean to guide him in what to do when Jack died. So of course he marches out to make a big damn hero funeral pyre.  He needed to do something and trusted Dean’s advice. Harry Potter spoiler: It reminded me a bit of Harry digging Dobby’s grave. He needed the physical act to help get through the moment. It was heartbreaking to see him so forlorn when the axe broke and he felt helpless. Jared made me feel Sam’s brokenness.  I also liked that it was Sam who thought of Lily Sumner. It’s my headcanon that he was thinking a bit about Kevin and that’s how he got to the mental connection of Lily and the angel tablet scribbles. His statement to Dean that giving up would be like losing Jack all over again rang true. It’s not that Sam doesn’t understand the risks, but once he found a viable option, he was bringing Jack back if at all possible.  “He was OUR child!” Was also the perfect thing to stop Lily in her tracks. I have zero issue with the boys feeling like Jack is their son. They aren’t likely to have family any other way. And they ARE raising him. I also have no trouble with the deep feelings after only a year. Once those feelings exist, they go bone deep and it doesn’t matter how long you have known the person. In sum, I felt like I was watching Sam suffer a new experience — the loss of a child — and felt it range true that he was both shattered and single-minded once a possible solution was presented.

 

Dean: Poor Dean.  Not able to watch Jack suffer is perfectly in character.  Going back in to do it anyway also matches. But then he steps up and lead the other two, Sam and Cas, into how to grieve.  While Dean’s admitted he had to be both father & mother for Sam, I think a case could be made that he has also been Cas’ guide to humanity.  Not a parental role, but still the role of teacher. So the part that made me cry for Dean was when he called Mary. He’s SUCH a caregiver. And he’s reaching out to her to not only tell her about Jack but because “it would be really nice to hear your voice. If you could give us a call back.”  Oof. I’m reminded of the call to John in “Home”. We also have Dean apologizing to Mary, not just for not letting her know before Jack died but also because they couldn’t save him (at least that’s my headcanon) and he knew how much Jack meant to Mary. Then Dean’s Prime Directive is invoked (Save SAMMY!).  He loses his shit when he gets out of that car, terrified that somehow he failed realize Sam was desperate. Fortunately he that was Dean’s fear, but it was never Sam’s intent to make a cross-roads deal. Still, I like how they reminded us that Jack may be yet another child for Dean, but Sam is still the Prime Directive child.  It rings true. And of course Jensen continues to shift gears thru 82 emotions in a matter of minutes. Dean always feels so real and so present at every step. During ‘the wake’ at the kitchen table, I like how it was Dean who outdrank Sam and Cas. And both the writing and Jensen’s acting was perfect in showing that still being slightly drunk the next morning brings out the uninhibited rude in him. I like how Dean was more than happy to look the gift horse (Lilly Sumner) in the mouth — he didn’t trust her from the jump until he got the truth out of her (about wanting a bit of heaven with her daughter).  And then Dean was able to use that information to get her to help with nothing to gain for herself. As I mentioned earlier, I like that Dean is VERY leary of any more deals or messing around with souls. With good reason, of course, But he also accepts it’s Jack’s decision. This is NOT the Dean of S6 who made decisions for others (Lisa/Ben memory wipe). Of course it was Dean (with the profound bond) who makes the prayer to Cas. And I like how Cas was able to use Jack’s knowledge of BOTH Sam and Dean to extract a promise of secrecy out of him. If Dean knew Cas made a deal with The Shadow, welp… Dean would make it his life’s mission to fix it.  In sum, we got to see Dean be ‘parent’ to Jack, ‘parent’ to Sam, ‘BFF/mentor’ to Cas and ‘son’ to Mary. And each role is seamlessly integrated and natural for Dean. I’d rewatch this episode for that richness alone.

 

Cas: Cas this year has been more of an enigma to me.  Even before he made the deal with The Shadow, I’ve felt like he’s WAITING for something. What, I don’t know.  But he seem both comfortable with his place and yet not. I wonder if he was worried all along that Jack’s loss of grace would mean a shortened life.  With Jack he had a potential companion through the eons. With Jack’s grace gone, Cas was back to the sole immortal in the group. That HAS to put a damper on things when you are so in love with your ‘found’ family. Cas just always seems a little sad.  While rewatching the wake scene, you can SEE they are actually using Jack’s name — so it wasn’tt just all improv — but the one thing that I struggled with was watching Cas genuinely laugh. I want too see that with real dialog because I want to know what would really make Cas laugh (versus slight chortle). Continuing on, Cas also seems to be trying to take on the caretaker role.  Dean’s upset and leaves the room, Cas follows. I don’t Destiel, but MAN, that sure felt like a wife chasing after her husband. Then again, when Sam walks off, Cas’ instinct is to run after Sam. It’s like they all three are married. And while Sam and Dean have learned when to chase and when to not, Cas is ‘new’ to his role of ‘brother-husband’ (as opposed to ‘sister-wife’, if you follow my analogy) and has to be told by one or the other to give the other ‘partner’ space. NOTE: I’m not actually implying a REAL non-platonic relationship as part of the show, just acknowledging that the closeness of these three is like that of life-long partners. And I’m cool with it.  Because I think that this is what they are. In it through thick & thin til the bitter end. And speaking of bitter end, I think Cas’ deal with The Shadow is actually somewhat of a relief to him. He doesn’t want to outlive Jack (and he said so). He doesn’t want to be the lone immortal standing. In sum, I think Cas’ characterization was spot on. He lives for his family. And he was happy to accept The Shadow’s deal because not only would it save Jack & Heaven, it would stop him from being left behind.

 

Lily Sunder: If I hadn’t known it was a different actress, I would have thought it was the same person. Lily’s matter-of-fact attitude and hard negotiations was still in place.  I very much appreciated that her redemption came built not on JUST her final act but proceeded by her decision to stop using magic and save her little bit of soul. All it took was just a sliver of soul for her to do the right thing. (Note: yes, I HATE that they have rewritten the canon on the immutability of the soul… my headcanon is that Death didn’t want Dean to know it was possible to use up your soul power).

 

Naomi: Ruthlessly protective of Heaven and in perfect character.  With just a few lines, she’s back to the ‘sacrifices must be made for the greater good’ self-righteous angel she’s always been.  It’s true that she no longer has any ambition but to be the caretaker of souls, but she still has that way about her that says to me that she’s missing Chuck’s point.  Chuck is fine with a person CHOOSING to sacrifice themselves for the greater good IMO. Free Will and all. But Naomi making that choice for Jack? Not even discussing it with him? Hmmmm…. I don’t think Chuck would be down for that. He agonized over ‘killing Amara’ to save the universe.  Unless Naomi gets a personality change, I’m not sure a reformed Heaven is going to ever be possible.

 

The Shadow: Welp. I think it’s gotten worse.  When Cas said “I’m the reason you woke up,” I felt like it was an indicator that The Shadow did not go back to sleep after Cas left.  And it’s may have been slightly better when it threw Cas out but it didn’t get the peace it was expecting. Again, the writing and acting was excellent IMO. The Shadow is full on chaotic evil.  And it wants to hurt Cas. That’s a dangerous random element out there. Because there are MANY things that would hurt Cas — not just going back to The Empty.

 

Kelly: Her horror at realizing Jack was dead was pitch perfect for me.  And the quiet resolution to not leave Jack’s side in the face of Evil just further teaches Jack what he’s learned from ALL of his parents (except bio-dad Lucifer): you stand by your family no matter what.  I love that he got a fresh “infusion” of Kelly feels. And she was so happy he was going back. I don’t need to revisit characters in Heaven all the time — I think it leaves unanswered questions about where they are AFTER they become Heaven-aware — but I liked this visit.  

 

Bottom Line for TL:DR: Both the writing and acting for the characters was exceptionally strong in this episode.  So MANY facets for each of the members of Team Free Will were on display. While I always enjoy good action episodes, this character piece really worked for me.

Edited December 9, 2018 by SueB
bolding for the skimmers

[bozodegama]

Echoing what Sue B. just said in my own, more terse and guyish sort of way.  An old school Supernatural!  Well done, all round.  And a good Dean episode, great Allman Bos. song.  This guy requires no more.

[mertensia]

This was just an okay episode for me, though I did appreciate Kelly more than I had. Also, Veronica Cartwright did an excellent job.

I thought Naomi was dead? What am I not remembering?

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, mertensia said:

This was just an okay episode for me, though I did appreciate Kelly more than I had. Also, Veronica Cartwright did an excellent job.

I thought Naomi was dead? What am I not remembering?

Naomi came back last season in the episode Funeralia (I think) and said that it took more than a probe in the brain to kill her, but it took all that time for her to heal.  Whatever, eye roll.

[mertensia]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Naomi came back last season in the episode Funeralia (I think) and said that it took more than a probe in the brain to kill her, but it took all that time for her to heal.  Whatever, eye roll.

Man, I just do not remember that at all.

But thank you for telling me!

[trudysmom]

Thanks for confirming what we all knew, ILoveReading.  The whole time that scene was on, as much as I love seeing them laugh and be happy, I couldn't help thinking that Jared was poking Misha in the crotch under the table.

  In Book of the Damned, I loved the scene of them sitting around the table with Charlie and Cas, Dean is laughing, Sam is guilt-ridden and Behind Blue Eyes is playing. Jared played it perfectly.  Dean is eating and laughing with his mouth open, full of food, but not spitting it like an ape.  A happy man, a hopeful gathering.  I know these are two completely different scenarios, but the differences in the characters are glaring.  And why, why sit around drinking and reminiscing about a kid they knew for about a year?  Did they really have that many happy memories of him stored up?  He must have been one funny guy when we weren't around to see, because they looked happy as hell, if that's what we are supposed to take from that scene.  The more I think about it the more it bugs me. Mourn the too-short life of someone who never got the chance to live, or rue the could-have-beens of potentially world-changing entity who might have done great things, but don't cram a fathers' grief down my throat, that just doesn't fly. 

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Thanks for confirming what we all knew, ILoveReading.  The whole time that scene was on, as much as I love seeing them laugh and be happy, I couldn't help thinking that Jared was poking Misha in the crotch under the table.

  In Book of the Damned, I loved the scene of them sitting around the table with Charlie and Cas, Dean is laughing, Sam is guilt-ridden and Behind Blue Eyes is playing. Jared played it perfectly.  Dean is eating and laughing with his mouth open, full of food, but not spitting it like an ape.  A happy man, a hopeful gathering.  I know these are two completely different scenarios, but the differences in the characters are glaring.  And why, why sit around drinking and reminiscing about a kid they knew for about a year?  Did they really have that many happy memories of him stored up?  He must have been one funny guy when we weren't around to see, because they looked happy as hell, if that's what we are supposed to take from that scene.  The more I think about it the more it bugs me. Mourn the too-short life of someone who never got the chance to live, or rue the could-have-beens of potentially world-changing entity who might have done great things, but don't cram a fathers' grief down my throat, that just doesn't fly. 

That scene in The Book of the Damned also had "last supper" forboding moment attached to it as well.  

The problem is that they didn't even really know him for a year.  It was a few months months at best.  Because the first few weeks, both Sam and Dean had an antagonistic relationship.  Sam's was more manipulative.  He had an agenda and Dean was outright hostile.  Just as things got better, Jack ran off with a need to prove himself.  They just met up with him and he gets stuck in the AU for most of last season.  Then they were all so busy trying to rescue Dean they barely had time for Jack.

So when did they all build this super close relationship? Even off screen when did anyone really have the chance?

 Since when do Sam and Dean make deals for anyone but each other?  Why is not trying with Jack like losing him all over again when it wasn't for anyone else they cared about.  Dean saw Bobby as a father figure, and whether a person sees it as brotherly or romantic, Dean loves Cas.  Yet, he's never been tempted to make a deal.  Why Jack?  Have we ever seen Sam try to make a deal?

This is why I can't agree Meredith did a good job with characterization (because none of them had the relationship with Jack this episode tried to claim they had.  They show invented it for the sake of the last two episodes, rather than allowing the relationship to build organically.  In this case, even the tell doesn't work because they literally didn't spend all that much time with Jack because he wasn't even physically present most of the time for interactions to take place off screen.

Edited December 9, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

It was overly dramatic as the writers bought into their own nougat baby idea. The characters reacted in an inorganic manner to the situation. They didn`t lose a child and yet the entire premise of the thing was build on that foundation. 

It`s the same as when a love interest is clumsily and shoddily build up and yet suddenly when the plot demands it is a love story build for the ages. You see that pretty often with romantic love stories, very little with familial love stories but it`s really the same problem. It`s not wanting to put in the work of building real relationships. 

[Pondlass1]

Soapernatural...no one dies and everyone is so nice.

The only evil one left now is Mother.   

[PAForrest]

50 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Soapernatural...no one dies and everyone is so nice.

The only evil one left now is Mother.   

LOL!!!! It's funny because it's true.

[SueB]

 What they were saying during the wake montage:

https://www.instagram.com/showmetheeditz/p/BrJPleCF0li/

[7kstar]

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

What they were saying during the wake montage:

https://www.instagram.com/showmetheeditz/p/BrJPleCF0li/

After watching, my director mind started wondering how to fix what I saw on the screen.  I think it would have been better if they had allowed the words to start and then covered it with music.  I don't hate this ep but I don't feel the deep emotion I felt with Charlie and Kevin for example.   So I'm split, I can see both sides and I did see Dean taking charge of helping both Cass and Sam deal with grief.

I did wonder with the broken ax; why they've never used it as comic relief.  I will admit that I had three deaths in one week prior to this show, so seeing this great relationship just didn't happen for me.

[takalotti]

19 hours ago, Wateroflife said:

When watching, I l thought that Lily used the last sliver of her soul to ressurect Jack so his soul could stay intact and that sacrifice is why she got into heaven. I admit my attention was wandering at that point, but if not then why did she drop dead just at that moment? However, that doesn't really make sense either because the show has established that you don't need a soul to be alive. *shrug*

 

This is exactly how I read the scene. But all the other comments related to the soul used in the spell are saying it was Jack's, or will this have dire consequences for Jack. And I’m like "Whuh? But his soul didn’t get used."

I don’t see any reason why performing the spell would result in Lily's death unless the last piece of her soul was used.

I don’t see why just sharing the spell with the guys even after finding out she was currently destined for hell and there was nothing the guys could do to change that would be a big enough kind act to tip her abacus reading.

Anubis said something like "Did you know what that would cost you?" and I swear she replied in the affirmative. What about doing the spell would "cost" Lily anything if her soul wasn’t involved? I was sure his question meant "Did you know that using your soul in the spell instead of Jack's would use up the LAST of your soul, resulting in your death, which you expected would send you to hell? So you gave up your chance to see your daughter or to continue living on your borrowed time for the sake of other people, making a true and pure sacrifice?"

 

I don’t get anything related to the Empty Keeper. Jack woke Cas up. Cas being awake woke up the EK who REALLY likes its sleep. Cas threatened to stay awake and annoy the shit out of it so it could never sleep again, implying if it would just send him to earth with the Winchesters like he asked, then it could go back to sleep. And then Cas was sent back to earth so I assumed the EK went back to sleep. So far, I’m fine with this.

The fact that the EK was up and about trying to find Jack could just be that it felt was owed a being and woke up to find it. Okay.

But then Cas saying something about "I could live for eons and you like your sleep" made no sense. He made it sound like EK has been up this whole time. Maybe that's what ended up happening, but why would that be the assumption when the whole point of getting booted out of Empty was to let the EK go back to sleep and there was another plausible reason for it being up (Jack)? So nonsensical.

 

Lat thing I don’t need get: Why on earth would Naomi give Michael's possible location over to the people who want to kill him? Last time we saw her, she was all about how there weren’t enough angels to keep heaven running. Many of us thought this meant Gabriel or the AU angels would be a factor. With him gone and no AU angels around, I would at least think Naomi would want to try to convert AU Michael to their cause and save Heaven. Maybe it’s all a ruse and she’s hoping to use TFW to do the dirty work of trapping Michael and then she can swoop in and suggest an alternative.

 

Also, it’s about time the creator of this meme added a few new faces to it...

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by takalotti

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This is exactly how I read the scene. But all the other comments related to the soul used in the spell are saying it was Jack's, or will this have dire consequences for Jack. And I’m like "Whuh? But his soul didn’t get used."

He is using it now, to stay healthy. That`s why he had to read the words as well. If it was only about bringing him back, he`d have the same problem without his grace. Part of his soul now "powers" him.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Anubis said something like "Did you know what that would cost you?" and I swear she replied in the affirmative. What about doing the spell would "cost" Lily anything if her soul wasn’t involved? I was sure his question meant "Did you know that using your soul in the spell instead of Jack's would use up the LAST of your soul, resulting in your death, which you expected would send you to hell? So you gave up your chance to see your daughter or to continue living on your borrowed time for the sake of other people, making a true and pure sacrifice?"

IA nothing about that made sense.  But I thought that what went to heaven (or hell) *was* your soul, since the body stays behind.  Therefore, no soul = nothing to send anywhere.  No reward *or* punishment.  (I don't know how the humans whose souls Amara ate fit in there.  They're just...gone?)

Of course, that makes The Empty kind of pointless, since angels without grace (which I thought was the only way they could die) become just empty vessels.  Unless their (dead) grace is what's in the Empty, like the human souls in heaven/hell?  At which point, hmmm...interesting idea on how to repopulate heaven.  

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He is using it now, to stay healthy. That`s why he had to read the words as well. If it was only about bringing him back, he`d have the same problem without his grace. Part of his soul now "powers" him.

Plus without a future problem (ie, missing part of his soul?) there wouldn't be a reason to angst over Jack for the rest of the season.

[SueB]

39 minutes ago, takalotti said:

This is exactly how I read the scene. But all the other comments related to the soul used in the spell are saying it was Jack's, or will this have dire consequences for Jack. And I’m like "Whuh? But his soul didn’t get used."

I don’t see any reason why performing the spell would result in Lily's death unless the last piece of her soul was used.

I don’t see why just sharing the spell with the guys even after finding out she was currently destined for hell and there was nothing the guys could do to change that would be a big enough kind act to tip her abacus reading.

Anubis said something like "Did you know what that would cost you?" and I swear she replied in the affirmative. What about doing the spell would "cost" Lily anything if her soul wasn’t involved? I was sure his question meant "Did you know that using your soul in the spell instead of Jack's would use up the LAST of your soul, resulting in your death, which you expected would send you to hell? So you gave up your chance to see your daughter or to continue living on your borrowed time for the sake of other people, making a true and pure sacrifice?"

 

I don’t get anything related to the Empty Keeper. Jack woke Cas up. Cas being awake woke up the EK who REALLY likes its sleep. Cas threatened to stay awake and annoy the shit out of it so it could never sleep again, implying if it would just send him to earth with the Winchesters like he asked, then it could go back to sleep. And then Cas was sent back to earth so I assumed the EK went back to sleep. So far, I’m fine with this.

The fact that the EK was up and about trying to find Jack could just be that it felt was owed a being and woke up to find it. Okay.

But then Cas saying something about "I could live for eons and you like your sleep" made no sense. He made it sound like EK has been up this whole time. Maybe that what ended up happening, but why would that be the assumption when the whole point of getting booted out of Empty was to let the EK go back to sleep and there was another plausible reason for it being up (Jack)? So nonsensical.

 

 

 

 

It didn't have to be ALL of that last sliver, just enough so it wouldn't sustain her life.  And she DEFINITELY said a spell and had a physical reaction, so she gave up part of her soul power IMO.

I think The Shadow (the Empty Keeper) thought kicking Cas out would allow it to go back to sleep.  But it seems further off it's rocker and it's been suffering.  So, I think things did not go like The Shadow expected.  As Naomi said, Cas was the only one to come back.  Perhaps that ultimately gave The Shadow some sort of mental alarm or disquiet -- and it's regretted letting Cas go ever sense.  I don't think it would have bothered chasing after Jack if it HADN'T been aware enough to know who Jack was.  

[Cambion]

Just a few random things to throw in the mix here.

 

Disclaimer:  I'm new.  I only started watching the show a few months ago (I dismissed it as a MOTW trash show for way too long to my great shame.  And started watching it because SPN is also by Kripke and so is Timeless - one of my all time favorite shows ever.  SPN is now vying for the #1 spot in a big way.)  Anyway, I have watched through all the seasons 3 times with multiple extra views of favorite episodes.  Been reading the tie in novels, fan fic and spent too many hours on YouTube watching convention panels, as well.  What can I say?  When I binge, I BINGE.  Anyways.....I say this because I may be off on my understanding of the characters and the arcs because consuming them in rapid fire is NOT the same as the investment of years of watching.  Be that as it may, I've been lurking here for a week or two and I guess I'm ready to stick my toe in the water.

 

As far as Dean in this episode.  (First the other disclaimer - I very much relate to this character, he and I have the same core of taking care of others to the absolute detriment of ourselves.  I'm a little older and have been through a lot more therapy so I can and have analysed my inner belief system and motivations in this regard.  So, I get him.  Well, at least I think I do.)  So, Dean was hostile to Jack from the get go because, and I don't think he realized this himself at first, he knew that Jack would find a place in his heart and that is something that Dean really fears.  

He's taken care of Sam all his life.  He took care of his mom and "cleaned up his dad's messes" (boy, do I know that one) - Dark Side of the Moon - and wouldn't have done any of this if he felt he had another choice.  I think he didn't feel as if his father really loved him, and has always sought his approval and love.  All of the most intimate moments we've seen between John and Dean have been about Dean taking care of Sam.  "I dress like him, I play his music, but you are more like him than I will ever be."  (Can't remember the ep off the top of my head, but this is it.  This is Dean's core.  He worships his dad and did everything he could to get that attention, that approval, that he never felt he got.)

So, He has always had Sam as number one in his life.  Everything is about making sure Sam lives and grows and it's Dean's vehement hope that somehow this will redeem him (for not BEING Sam) in his dad's eyes and he will finally have the love of the man he worships.  tl;dr Dean's got some serious daddy issues.

Through the show, Dean has expanded the circle of people under his protection.  He added Bobby, Cas, Charlie, Kevin, Bennie, Lisa and Ben.  And at some point in each of these relationships, he's not been able to 'save' them,,.even though it wasn't in his control to do so, and he beat himself up for it.  He's always beating himself up for it. He has an inner monolog of how he 'let X down', how he 'failed', how he wasn't there, wasn't good enough, how he let things happen that he could have stopped...you know, shit that not even Chuck could have stopped most of the time.  And Dean hears this all in his father's voice.  In his estimation disappointing the one person he really needs approval from.

What he did to Lisa and Ben was very selfish,  yes.  But by that point, he had reached survival mode.  (Dean plays a good game, but "The Real Ghostbusters" had it right:  Frightened Little Boy, The Secret Life of Dean Winchester.)   he let others in and it ended up the same, he couldn't save them. And when Jack appears, Dean is still in survival mode and he's the abused puppy cornered and lashing out because the helping hand that's been extended will undoubtedly beat him senseless if he even thinks about trusting it.  He's angry with himself because he can't protect everything, and fix everything so he lashes out at Jack, and at Sam about Jack, etc.

He relented and let Sam and Cas help Jack, and Jack got under his skin.  Optimism and Byzantium show him realizing that Jack is already under his protection by virtue of him being Sam and Cas's protector and that maybe, just maybe, it would be okay to let himself feel some good in the relationship with Jack that he has ultimately allowed himself with all the rest of his charges.

So, yeah.  What pretty much everyone said before and  this.

 

Second thing I wanted to touch on (ha, I kid, I've already wasted how much of your time?):  the whole thing with Anubis and Lily and the soul thing...as a practitioner of ancient Egyptian religion and a child and worshipper of Anubis, this fits in pretty well with those beliefs.  I'm not saying the writer/etc. had any inside knowledge because I simply don't know that.  But I do know, as someone who was raised xtian and has studied religions, much of xtianity's core beliefs have root in ancient Egypt.  So in that light, it doesn't ring untrue from the religious themes of the show.  I won't expound here on what the Egyptian beliefs were because it's not relevant to the show or the episode except in the most oblique way, but I want to say that as a compound of the two belief systems it worked very well for someone who has worshipped in both religions.

 

Cheers guys!

Edited December 9, 2018 by Cambion

[MysteryGuest]

Welcome to the board, Cambion!  There are a number of us who got here through binging the show, rather than watching from day one, so you're not alone.  Reading your post helped to remind me of what drew me to the show from the beginning, and that was the relationship of these two brothers.  It's why I'm still here.  Now I want to go back and watch those beginning seasons again.

[DeeDee79]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 5:08 PM, PAForrest said:

Everything this season feels like padding, and this episode in particular felt like the writer could only cobble together about 20-25 minutes of content, so it was stretched out by crap like the drinking scene and the scene in the woods talking about Sam's criminally poor wilderness skills, stuff like that. I don't know the point of this episode, or any episode this year. The producers are clearly sans ideas, they know it, but they don't care because they also know the remaining fan base will just tune in for the guys reading from the phone book at this point - which I fully expect to happen. And when it does I will see no difference in 42 minutes of phone book droning versus anything else I've seen this year.

Of course there's no investment in anyone dying because everyone has died a gazillion times and they always come back. That was the worst trope the show ever produced.

And OMG given the overdramatic wailing from the guys about their shared baby, I fully expected to see them all lactating.

I don't understand this Empty plot device at all. Nor do I really care.

More annoying canon retcon with the sudden ability to slice and dice souls. And shouldn't Jack be experiencing the exact same consumption problem given that his grace is still gone? I'm confused on that point - if there even is one.

The good stuff I got out of this one was seeing Veronica Cartwright showing up on an episode of Supernatural, because VC showing up anywhere is a cause for smiles. And Anubis was a cool though completely ironic "accountant" character given how The Good Place had pretty much the same exact plot airing opposite the episode. Psych.

But I wish Dean would lose Mary's number. For Chuck's sake, dude, when are you going to get that she's just not that into you?

 

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 1:18 PM, sarthaz said:

Jack is not their son. Jack is not their son. Jack is not their son.

 

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 3:51 PM, ILoveReading said:

I could see Sam, and Dean looking at Jack as a little brother but every "son" just feels for forced. 

These points perfectly sum up my overall thoughts for this episode.  Along with this: 

 

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 5:15 PM, ILoveReading said:

Why should I care if Jack is sick and dying.  I knew he'd be back by the end of the episode. 

I totally agree with all of you. It has been a lackluster season for me so far. Though it was nice to see Veronica Cartwright ( Cassandra Spender!! ) 

[SueB]

Second watch thoughts on the episode with a focus on episode plot and mythos additions.

Bottom Line Up Front (for the TL: DR): Damn.  For a character driven episode, this sure had a TON of plot points and mythos moments. We came away with not only season long clues but series-level implications.

Jack dies plot: Welp, he’s a Winchester, it was going to happen.  And right from the jump, dying before the credits, it felt WRONG. Not just because no one stays dead on Supernatural but because of the speed.  I did like the ‘realness’ added when Dean said Jack died “this morning”. Supernatural doesn’t often give us time of day — saying “this morning” made it feel like something a person would really say.  I liked how the boys KNEW it was wrong but didn’t immediately have a solution. Unlike when Kevin was burned out by Angel grace, Kevin’s Supernatural death was violent and permanent. Jack’s body just stopped… due to lack of grace.  It was off. And it wasn’t after some great sacrifice. His death felt so unwarranted. Even in the heartless deaths of Charlie or Kevin, there was an enemy who caused the death for a reason. Not so with Jack. It was a side effect. But even though I didn’t expect his death to stick, Jack and his loved ones did.  And that’s what made it interesting.  How they reacted, what they did about it. In sum, it felt wrong for Jack to die so quickly but his death was still meaningful for the impact it had on him and everyone around him.

Then there’s the title, “Byzantium”:  On Thursday, prior to the episode airing, Meredith Glynn posted something about finding a Yeats gif.  And immediately on Twitter people were wailing Jack was dying. I didn’t see this until just before the episode aired so I had no time for research.  The long and short of it (apologies to English Lit majors… please feel free to fix it if I mess this up), is that W.B. Yeats wrote a famous poem “Sailing Into Byzantium” and a common interpretation is that it’s about the fleeting nature of life and looking for something longer lasting in the form of art to transform your soul into something eternal. Reading up on it after the fact, the analogy is pretty clear – Jack quickly shifts from the prime of youth into an old man who eventually dies and comes back with an eternal form.  Again, someone else could write that whole connection better.  Between the previous week’s fishing and joy in the fleeting moments and this week’s invocation of an ancient Egyptian God, an angel ‘sage’, and veteran hunters, I think they put a lot of effort into making this analogy.  Works for me.  But of course Supernatural is LITERALLY making Jack eternal versus leaving behind a piece of art.  Because that’s what they do.  The upshot, IMO, is that Jack being eternal may have consequences but this was ultimately a good thing.  That’s comforting for me.

Lily Sunders gets redemption: I really liked that when they thought they were out of options, Sam came up with another.  If you sit back and think about it, Lily Sunders should have been someone they called right from the get-go. She was an angel specialist and there aren’t many who could claim that.  Once called, I was pleased with her arc.  Having her realize that eternity with her child mattered more than revenge went a long way towards her redemption.  Obviously not quite far enough.  Adding in Anubis was really interesting.  First, you can SEE his father in him.  Osiris was an asshole but had a certain snark quotient that carried onto the son.  And Anubis bringing an abacus versus scales was like the son growing beyond the father.  Anubis didn’t mention the Winchester’s temporarily ‘killing’ Osiris, but he didn’t seem all that irritated with them.  I like the guy. And I like the idea that Heaven picked someone to take over the process when God peaced out – and they subbed it out to a pagan god.  Nice twist.  He doesn’t have the ‘power’ so much as the tool set.  Works well with the notion that they also had dealings with the Fates. 

The Shadow tries to snatch Jack:  Well I didn’t see that coming but I like the idea that The Shadow has lost its mind (or gotten worse) after Cas left. But it’s still a formidable opponent that will keep us guessing - both mercurial and clever. I also like that it went after Jack.  I don’t think that it has invaded Heaven before.  So that means either Heaven was too strong before or The Shadow didn’t care or wasn’t aware.  I think maybe a bit of both.  But it was definitely on a mission.  I have zero idea how the Satanator (Lucifer in the goo) relates to this or if this is a longer term threat that won’t come back this season.  I’m curious to see where it’s headed but kind of expect that it won’t be back til a S15.  A VERY slow burn. Regardless, I think The Shadow will somehow be involved in involuntarily freeing angels in order to fix Heaven.  No spoilers, just speculation.

Mythos additions (that may or may not hold up):
- Anubis is the being who runs the personal judgement process when someone dies
- Kelly is Heaven-aware
- Cas has made a deal with The Shadow that can only end in tears
- Cas was the only person to ever come back from The Empty
- The Shadow is the name of the entity in The Empty and it’s chaotic evil
- All the gates of Heaven are open now – I don’t know if Naomi could shut them again

Guesses:
- Sister Jo is keeping tabs on earth and the one who told Naomi where Michael is
- Heaven’s reformation and ultimate restoration may have something to do with The Empty getting raided for angels – I also sense a little rapprochement between Naomi and Cas – that’s a change
- Just like Cas & his borrowed grace, Jack’s soul-powered spell is a way of keeping him alive but not too powerful – means he still could die again

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  There was a LOT going on in this episode.  I think a third watch is warranted to see what else I missed.  Meredith Glynn invoking Yates is also worth a think.  I’m going to have to look at the rest of the titles now and see if there is anything else I’ve missed. 

 

ETA: "Sailing Into Byzantium" https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43291/sailing-to-byzantium

Edited December 10, 2018 by SueB