19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate

[JLG]

 

Because my hatred of the FRC is based on their bigoted beliefs. I don't buy into the idea that we have to be tolerant of intolerance or else I'm just as bad. That's a canard. Plus, I'm not on some campaign to outlaw Christianity, whereas the FRC has advocated outlawing gay behavior. Not to mention, one side is already marginalized and persecuted, and the other one isn't. The two sides are not on a level playing field to begin with, so I refuse to treat them as if they are.

Why is one side of an issue expected to be "tolerant" if the other side is not?  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.   If you believe your position is correct, you shouldn't need the other side to validate it. 

[galax-arena]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.   If you believe your position is correct, you shouldn't need the other side to validate it.

I believe we have already hashed and rehashed this ages ago, so I'll simply reiterate that no one here is saying that the Duggars/FRC aren't entitled to their beliefs, only that people are equally as entitled to their beliefs that the Duggars/FRC are intolerant bigots. 

 

Oh, and once again, no, I'm not going to be tolerant of someone else's intolerance. Otherwise, we could just keep going forever. Why can't you be tolerant of my intolerance to your intolerance? And why can't I be tolerant of your intolerance to my intolerance of your intolerance? This ain't Inception, we do not need to deeper. 

Edited January 24, 2015 by galax-arena

[frenchtoast]

Ok, folks, let's keep this about the Duggars and not each other. 

[Shugardrawers]

I'm be stunned too - there's no way TLC would adopt this approach. But something tells me the ratings would increase if they did. However at that point I believe the Duggars would quit. Boob and Mechelle - IMO - aren't up to a real challenge of their beliefs. And would definitely not like questions they hadn't pre-approved. Or questions for which they hadn't concocted BS replies.

 

The absolute hypocrisy and the picking and choosing of beliefs and 1/2 beliefs of these people drives me insane!  The most glaring one I can think of is this:  They *claim* that they want to trust in the lord and his "plan" for them by allowing god to choose the size of their family, which is all well and good provided you can provide for them without the use of my tax dollars (which they have done).  BUT just last season or the one before J'Boob and J'Chelle visited a fertility specialist because they wanted even MORE children and she hadn't gotten pregnant in a while.  So if using birth control interferes with the cosmic plan then conversely isn't seeking fertility treatment ALSO interfering with the plan?  Isn't that also saying they don't trust god to give them the size family he wants them to have in the same way limiting your family size does?

 

And according to MEchelle, the older ones LOVE to help with the littles. Yeah, right.

On another note, I wonder if the kids have driven anywhere by themselves. (Besides John Doofus driving the tow truck.) I know my son couldn't wait for the first time he could drive by himself after he got his license, which was about 2 hours. It's such a shame they can't be by themselves anywhere. I guess the bathroom is about it.

 

Don't bet on it!  I know the joys of a shower massage!  I'm betting the older girls do too!

 

They probably have accountability timers on the bathroom locks so no one gets up to anything... unrighteously fulfilling.

 

See above.  It doesn't take long if you do it right LOL

 

I'll give them a pass on the slide because when they were building the house they had more little boys than they did girls. The girls' dorm was built with only Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger, and Joy in mind. They were all (with the exception of Joy) too old for a slide at that point. Johannah was the first baby born after the house was built and who knew that they'd have three more girls after her. 

If the girls come sliding down in a skirt and the boys see their underpants....isn't that a NIKE! moment?  Because one's sister's underpants is such an erotic thing to an 8 year old.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Shugardrawers

[3girlsforus]

The absolute hypocrisy and the picking and choosing of beliefs and 1/2 beliefs of these people drives me insane!  The most glaring one I can think of is this:  They *claim* that they want to trust in the lord and his "plan" for them by allowing god to choose the size of their family, which is all well and good provided you can provide for them without the use of my tax dollars (which they have done).  BUT just last season or the one before J'Boob and J'Chelle visited a fertility specialist because they wanted even MORE children and she hadn't gotten pregnant in a while.  So if using birth control interferes with the cosmic plan then conversely isn't seeking fertility treatment ALSO interfering with the plan?  Isn't that also saying they don't trust god to give them the size family he wants them to have in the same way limiting your family size does?

 

 

This .... 1000 times this.... They don't trust in God. They use God as an excuse to have a million children. That has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is about Jesus. 

[mccav]

If they were trusting God to determine the size of their family, there was no reason why a woman in her late 40's with nineteen kids already would need to talk to a doctor about her fertility. If they were truly leaving it up to God, there was no need for Michelle to have her teenage daughters to track her monthly cycle on that chart. Contradictions abound with JB and Michelle. If they truly trusted God in raising their children as Christians, then they would have the faith to let their grown children go out in the world, armed with the values they were taught, and choose their own paths.

[dillpickles]

If they were trusting God to determine the size of their family, there was no reason why a woman in her late 40's with nineteen kids already would need to talk to a doctor about her fertility. If they were truly leaving it up to God, there was no need for Michelle to have her teenage daughters to track her monthly cycle on that chart. Contradictions abound with JB and Michelle. If they truly trusted God in raising their children as Christians, then they would have the faith to let their grown children go out in the world, armed with the values they were taught, and choose their own paths.

No no, you're thinking about it wrong. You see, they let God decide certain things, but even the big guy makes mistakes! It's up to the Duggars to correct them sometimes. You know, like Michelle not being pregnant, that's not supposed to happen at all! So she just does what any woman of faith does, and helps god out.

And those kids making their own choices, what a joke. That can't happen either. Too many heathens running about. Sometimes God doesn't have his eye on the Duggar sparrows, so they have to monitor themselves. And by monitor themselves, I mean they don't do anything us (prayer) closet dwellers consider fun. That's why they have a teevee show and we don't.

So you see, simple explications, simple stuff.

[TobyBelle]

My understanding after watching that episode was that they went to the fertility doctor to see what her chances were of getting pregnant at her age. After doing all the blood work, they were told it was slim. I didn't get an impression they were going any further with any type of treatments. That visit pretty much sealed the deal for them that her baby making days were over. They just wanted to know so they could move on.

[floridamom]

Things that have been getting on my nerves lately:

I have never seen a family who are in love with their own reflections as much as this family. Isn't there something written somewhere about "being in love with your own reflection"? I think they need to confess that.

These people wearing that stupid "I Survived...." t-shirt. Were any of their mothers considering abortion? I doubt that. They need to throw those away or wash the car with them.

Jill is the worst dressed young woman I have ever seen. Don't they even consider for one moment coordinating the top with the bottom, even color-wise? She also needs a serious bra. That girl is hanging low, which also looks terrible.

Derick needs to realize that he is NOT yet on social security and get a decent wardrobe himself. Cathy needs to take both of them shopping.

Looking modest can still look good and well put together. I give these girls an "F".
 

[jb0495]

Yes, floridamom! I don't understand why they don't match their "modest" tank tops with the other shirt they are wearing. This would make such a difference in pictures, especially in Alyssa & John Webster's maternity shoot. She was wearing jeans, a nice top then had to ruin it with a black tank top showing. It would be much better if they did black with black, white with white & some colors, then matching colors or closely coordinated colors with certain tops.

[Barb23]

Florida mom & JB0495, add me to the agree list, especially about the I survived t-shirts. Regarding Jill & the bra thing - I'm sure most of us had to buy new larger size bras when we were pregnant. You would think Jill would have bought more supportive ones for the girls. Maybe hers came from the clearance rack at Wal-Mart. Regarding the modesty shirts - along with color coordinating, there are also camisoles that have pretty lace at the top portion that shows. Maybe showing a little lace is too risque for them.

I've never been able to put my finger on it, but there is something "off" about the Duggar ladies clothing. Maybe it's the bland colors they mainly choose or the lack of color coordinating or maybe it was the frumpiness from early years. Their style has gotten better than what it used to be but there's definitely a need for improvement. I'm sure one of the stylists from People could give them some pointers.

I know there are people out there who say they should be allowed to wear what they want, which I agree to a point. By their choosing, they are in the public eye much more & if it was me, I would put a little more effort in my clothing choices.

[floridamom]

I think that Jill mainly chooses cheap fabrics in her clothing and that makes everything look worse on her.

[GEML]

I pointed out before, when they go shopping, they buy tons of cheap things that I think they wear a few times and then throw away rather than washing it. This is partly because they paid a dollar or two for it, so it's not terribly expensive, it's also really cheap in quality and won't launder well, and few of them know how to launder outside of throw it in the machine and use detergent and dry in a machine.

This cuts down on laundry and gives them "new" clothes.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Things that have been getting on my nerves lately:

I have never seen a family who are in love with their own reflections as much as this family. Isn't there something written somewhere about "being in love with your own reflection"? I think they need to confess that.

These people wearing that stupid "I Survived...." t-shirt. Were any of their mothers considering abortion? I doubt that. They need to throw those away or wash the car with them.

Jill is the worst dressed young woman I have ever seen. Don't they even consider for one moment coordinating the top with the bottom, even color-wise? She also needs a serious bra. That girl is hanging low, which also looks terrible.

Derick needs to realize that he is NOT yet on social security and get a decent wardrobe himself. Cathy needs to take both of them shopping.

Looking modest can still look good and well put together. I give these girls an "F".

Jill is a clone of Michelle. Frumpy, outdated clothes, long & frizzy hair. In the early specials, Jill was extremely homely looking.

The Duggar men are no better with their helmet hair, Polo shirts and cell phone holsters from the early specials.Very 80s looking

I wish there was a hot tub time machine that can take Mullet & Boob back to their 1984 heyday.

[merylinkid]

HOw can buying clothes and then throwing them away after a few wearings be considered "frugal" in any way shape or form?   Spend the extra bucks on some nicer stuff and wear it forever.   I have shirts from 30 years ago I still wear.   Think of the money you save by not buying a ton of cheap shit every few weeks?

 

Actually Terry Pratchett makes this very point about the difference between rich and poor, he uses Sam Vimes' boots as an example.

[Shugardrawers]

My understanding after watching that episode was that they went to the fertility doctor to see what her chances were of getting pregnant at her age. After doing all the blood work, they were told it was slim. I didn't get an impression they were going any further with any type of treatments. That visit pretty much sealed the deal for them that her baby making days were over. They just wanted to know so they could move on.

But that's not the point.  They make a huge deal out of letting god choose their family size. So WHY visit a fertility Dr in ANY circumstance?  If you aren't getting pregnant then obviously, something...whether the god you worship or your body is saying ENOUGH!  So WHY did they go at all?  Because they want more children!

[NikSac]

But that's not the point.  They make a huge deal out of letting god choose their family size. So WHY visit a fertility Dr in ANY circumstance?  If you aren't getting pregnant then obviously, something...whether the god you worship or your body is saying ENOUGH!  So WHY did they go at all?  Because they want more children!

 

I completely agree. I bet she wanted to hit 20 really bad, and was pretty bothered when that didn't happen. However someone suggested either here or on TWoP that maybe JB convinced her to go to the appointment so that a medical type person would tell her "give it up, you're done!"  I thought that seemed like a reasonable possibility. On the flip side I also think (more like fear) that she might be one of those miracle women having a baby at 60 or something. She would probably looooove to have a baby younger than her grandbabies. At least for the first few months.

[Absolom]

Ah, memory returned.  They didn't go see an actual fertility specialist.  They went to see a high risk specialist and TLC just called the doctor a fertility specialist to mislead the audience.  

[NikSac]

Ah, memory returned.  They didn't go see an actual fertility specialist.  They went to see a high risk specialist and TLC just called the doctor a fertility specialist to mislead the audience.  

 

Ohh that's right. I remember I originally thought she was pregnant. I must have heard outside of the actual show that it was a high risk specialist.

[Shugardrawers]

That may well be....but my point stands.  If you are "allowing god to decide the size of your family" then WHY visit ANY type of fertility specialist?  If you aren't getting pregnant then obviously your time is done.  Whether they had no children or 25.....visiting any kind of specialist in my view is questioning what they say they believe.  That god has a plan for how many children they will have.

[Absolom]

I truly believe that it was all episode fodder.  TLC found a specialist who was willing to go on TV for a few minutes either for free advertising or was hoodwinked into thinking it would provide some public education and then TLC got to drum up interest and try to mislead the audience. 

[Shugardrawers]

I completely agree. I bet she wanted to hit 20 really bad, and was pretty bothered when that didn't happen. However someone suggested either here or on TWoP that maybe JB convinced her to go to the appointment so that a medical type person would tell her "give it up, you're done!"  I thought that seemed like a reasonable possibility. On the flip side I also think (more like fear) that she might be one of those miracle women having a baby at 60 or something. She would probably looooove to have a baby younger than her grandbabies. At least for the first few months.

 

I'm thinking it was more J'chelle than J'Boob.  In either case....they are obviously NOT leaving it up to their god by visiting ANY type of fertility specialist.

 

Ah, memory returned.  They didn't go see an actual fertility specialist.  They went to see a high risk specialist and TLC just called the doctor a fertility specialist to mislead the audience.  

 

See above.  It doesn't really matter what type of specialist they saw.  My point is that by seeing ANY specialist they were questioning their god about the size of their family.  Yet they constantly harp on the point that they seek only the size family their god has planned for them.  A visit to ANY specialist was a waste if that's what they truly believe.  I think at this point they are shooting for the Guinesss Book of World Records and to heck with what their god wants for them.  According to their philosophy....you should accept no children or 30 children according to his plan.  So what was the point of them visiting any kind of specialist whatsoever?

Anyone care to bet that if Benessa aren't expecting within a year of their wedding date they'll visit a fertility Dr.  But of course....they'll only want the size family their god wants for them.  So.....if you have NO children and visit a specialist then you're violating that covenant.

[GEML]

In fairness, few teens and people in their 20's are interested in clothes that can be worn for 30 years, no matter how poor or wealthy they are. They want clothes they feel express some kind of style.

[Absolom]

 

So what was the point of them visiting any kind of specialist whatsoever?

The doctor they saw was not any kind of fertility specialist and I said I believed the point was TLC driven episode fodder.  :)  

 

I can see people's point of saying they'll accept as many kids as God gives them and that rules out treating infertility, but to my mind I won't rule out fertility treatment.  My view is colored by having a child from fertility treatments though.  I own that, but I because of that I don't mind if the younger Duggars go that route because of issues.  Michelle didn't.  TLC just tried to make us think she did.  Apparently they were successful.  

[3girlsforus]

The doctor they saw was not any kind of fertility specialist and I said I believed the point was TLC driven episode fodder.  :)  

 

I can see people's point of saying they'll accept as many kids as God gives them and that rules out treating infertility, but to my mind I won't rule out fertility treatment.  My view is colored by having a child from fertility treatments though.  I own that, but I because of that I don't mind if the younger Duggars go that route because of issues.  Michelle didn't.  TLC just tried to make us think she did.  Apparently they were successful.  

 

I personally do not believe that saying God is in control means that you can't use infertility treatments. But I also don't believe it means you can't use birth control. God has given us brains to think, make decisions, etc. If we think we should only have 2 kids then we use our brains to know when to conceive and our brains to know that birth control is the best way to make sure we don't conceive more kids. We have used our brains to create ways to help get pregnant when our bodies are unable to do so. To me none of this is inconsistent with believing God is in control. Birth control, infertility treatments... they don't always work and accepting the outcome as God's will is what I typically view as accepting God as in control.

 

HOWEVER, the reason I believe infertility treatments are inconsistent for the Duggars is their view on birth control. If preventing conception in any way is interfering with God's plan then to me the same has to be true on the other side - being unable to conceive. If you use science to make a baby wouldn't that be interfering as well in light of the birth control belief? I find it inconsistent that they believe in an all-power God but think that something a simple as using a condom would prevent His will from being done. God caused a virgin to become pregnant and give birth to the Son of God but He can't cause birth control failure???? Their focus isn't about giving God control, it's about making babies. 

[TobyBelle]

I can see people's point of saying they'll accept as many kids as God gives them and that rules out treating infertility, but to my mind I won't rule out fertility treatment. My view is colored by having a child from fertility treatments though. I own that, but I because of that I don't mind if the younger Duggars go that route because of issues. Michelle didn't. TLC just tried to make us think she did. Apparently they were successful.

I agree. When I first saw the preview for that episode, I was horrified thinking they were seeking out fertility treatments because of their belief, and saw that it wasn't that at all. The point of my original response to the topic was in reaction to them being called out for seeking fertility treatments when they did not. I wanted to be fair to them when that was not what happened on the episode.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with them visiting whomever for an answer and that is probably because of my bias as well. Michelle always acknowledged that one day she'd hit the age when her body would stop reproducing. I don't see the harm in them making a visit to find out of this was the time. I struggled for 2 yrs to get pregnant and even tried fertility drugs which didn't work. I wished I was given a definitive answer of "No, you can't have anymore children" so I could've gotten on with my life sooner instead of waiting and waiting and holding onto to all the old baby clothes and toys that were taking up space and were a reminder of what I couldn't have anymore. To be fair to Michelle, she probably needed to hear it and be affirmed God had given her all the kids he had planned for her. I don't see them going to hear that answer as going against their belief, but confirmation.

Edited February 1, 2015 by TobyBelle

[zenme]

I've never been able to put my finger on it, but there is something "off" about the Duggar ladies clothing. Maybe it's the bland colors they mainly choose or the lack of color coordinating or maybe it was the frumpiness from early years. Their style has gotten better than what it used to be but there's definitely a need for improvement. I'm sure one of the stylists from People could give them some pointers

 

I think they're clothing looks cheaply made, and they're always a year after the trend...

[RazzleberryPie]

I think they're clothing looks cheaply made, and they're always a year after the trend...

They've come a long way since the homemade prairie stuff from Jana's middle school sweat shop, but I think the clothing looks cheap and a few years behind trend, because it is. They have some pretty pricey shoes now (UGGs, Sperrys, etc.), but the clothes still look like last season's Target clearance rack or nicer Goodwill odds and ends. Then they Modesty-fy everything, which makes it look even weirder. You just can't take a tight strappy cropped top and try to add layers and length without it looking weird and off, or toss on every $1 Walmart clearance accessory and have a put together out fit. 

[DangerousMinds]

At LEAST a year . . .

[zenme]

I have a friend--lovely as she is, she has a knack for picking out the least attractive thing in department store...even if we're at a wonderful store with racks of great clothes, she inevitably picks out the crap. This is like the Duggar family. Whether it's the wrong color, etc., or inappropriate shoes, they're always "off."

[Jynnan tonnix]

I can be a little like this as well...Due to my husband's position in the military, we do attend more than out share of "functions", and I do my best to be appropriately dressed, but given that I wear a size 18 or so there is a limited amount of really elegant clothing out there to begin with which fits well and is anything like affordable. For the most part, I think I do reasonably well, but I do have a habit of seeing shoes as a complete afterthought. I've never been into shoes in any case and go barefoot whenever I can get away with it, I wear a size 9 wide, and my feet are not going to be "pretty" no matter what I do, so I opt for comfort. As long as the shoes are reasonably appropriate and not actively falling apart, I just can't be bothered. I never notice anyone else's feet, and it's only slowly dawning on me (by the age of 56) that someone else may actually look at mine...

[Shugardrawers]

The doctor they saw was not any kind of fertility specialist and I said I believed the point was TLC driven episode fodder.  :)  

 

I can see people's point of saying they'll accept as many kids as God gives them and that rules out treating infertility, but to my mind I won't rule out fertility treatment.  My view is colored by having a child from fertility treatments though.  I own that, but I because of that I don't mind if the younger Duggars go that route because of issues.  Michelle didn't.  TLC just tried to make us think she did.  Apparently they were successful.  

 

I do understand what you are saying here.  My nephew would not have entered this world were it not for fertility treatments.  He's a sweet, smart and wonderful young man. I just think if you are going to condemn people for using means to control their fertility you have no room to talk about seeking aid to increase your family size.  Especially when you already have 19 live and healthy children and have had 2 that didn't make it.  To me it's a case of:  We'll do what god wants so long as it's what we want.  I just can't see any reason they would need to see any kind of Dr about fertility issues when they've had that many successful pregnancies.  When time's up it's up.   Why would they worry about that?

 

I personally do not believe that saying God is in control means that you can't use infertility treatments. But I also don't believe it means you can't use birth control. God has given us brains to think, make decisions, etc. If we think we should only have 2 kids then we use our brains to know when to conceive and our brains to know that birth control is the best way to make sure we don't conceive more kids. We have used our brains to create ways to help get pregnant when our bodies are unable to do so. To me none of this is inconsistent with believing God is in control. Birth control, infertility treatments... they don't always work and accepting the outcome as God's will is what I typically view as accepting God as in control.

 

HOWEVER, the reason I believe infertility treatments are inconsistent for the Duggars is their view on birth control. If preventing conception in any way is interfering with God's plan then to me the same has to be true on the other side - being unable to conceive. If you use science to make a baby wouldn't that be interfering as well in light of the birth control belief? I find it inconsistent that they believe in an all-power God but think that something a simple as using a condom would prevent His will from being done. God caused a virgin to become pregnant and give birth to the Son of God but He can't cause birth control failure???? Their focus isn't about giving God control, it's about making babies. 

 

While I agree with your point in general, that fertility treatment is NOT a sin it seems to me they are being hypocritical.  If you can't limit your family size because the bible says so then how is seeking ANY kind of fertility treatment (granted they didn't attempt to get pregnant again) not the opposite side of the coin?

Bowing out now because I think we're all making the same point in different ways.  Seems we all agree they are being hypocritical although we all agree that seeking fertility treatment is NOT a sin.  

[floridamom]

Yes, their stance about interfering with God's will and children...If one seeks "help" with conception, one can also seek help in prevention. Since the Almighty God is just that, almighty, a prescription aiding conception or a small piece of latex would NOT stop the Almighty from carrying out His will. Whatever God wills to happen in that department will be no matter what barrier or aid a human being uses...the Duggars are full of it about that.

[GEML]

Or maybe God himself doesn't interfere in any of these things and let's biology (now along with modern medicine) take it's course.

[DoctorWhovian]

If you truly believe that god decides how big your family is, and that every child is a blessing, etc., then wouldn't the use of birth control not prevent you from having children (assuming god wants you to have one then)? If birth control prevents pregnancy, even where god wants you to have children, wouldn't that just make modern science stronger than god? 

[Aja]

OH MY GOD DOCTORWHOVIAN, KEEP YOUR VOICE DOWN! ;) That's actually a great point. And one I would pay good money to see someone point out to OfJimBob live on TV. 

[Higgins]

Then they would bring out the free will card.

[Aja]

It would be tremendously hard to argue with, though. Like Shugardrawers said, if the basis of their family planning philosophy is 'leave it in God's hands', and 'we trust God to determine the size of our family', why go to a fertility specialist at all? If God>modern science, why not just ask God whether they're going to have number 20 or not? He speaks to them about a lot of other stuff, I'm sure he'd answer that question. They'd basically be forced to admit that science is good and they actually do NOT leave everything in God's hands.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Aja

[Sew Sumi]

When the episode aired, I posited that she merely had an FSH test to determine where she was in menopause. I imagine that given her age, her cycles were becoming less regular, but she was getting negative pregnancy tests, so yeah, Boob called the producers to find a doctor who would be willing to put this all on camera. This exchange basically told the leghumpers not to expect #20. Of course, it crushed them, but hey, IT'S GOD'S WILL! They were not very accepting of that at the time. 

 

There was no way they'd go into the science, since sheltered tweens watch this, but it sounds like she's merely in the throes of peri-menopause (who knows, maybe full menopause is finally upon her by now....please). 

[Absolom]

Exactly.  They saw an advanced OB (for whatever reason it wasn't necessary) for a simple blood test.  TLC promos tried to blow it up.

[DoctorWhovian]

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where a religious person is going to argue against the idea, and just say it's God's will or free choice or whatnot. The problem is that, logically, you either have a God who 100% knows everything that is ever going to happen and has a plan, that you're going to follow, and can control everything down to the minute detail, or you have free will. You can't have both. And if you are going to continue to be religious, you have to accept that there are some fallacies there. You just can't act that both of these propositions can exist at the same time.

 

Either birth control will prevent you from having a child that God wants you to have, and thus God can't overturn the use of birth control, or, God wanted you to take birth control all along and led you to make that choice, thus giving you the amount of children he planned for you anyways. Then throw in some of those talking points about how no abortion, even in rape, because that baby is a gift from God, and it just gets more confusing. A baby conceived on birth control should be even more amazing because God wanted that baby so much more he reversed your vasectomy! /s

[Higgins]

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where a religious person is going to argue against the idea, and just say it's God's will or free choice or whatnot. The problem is that, logically, you either have a God who 100% knows everything that is ever going to happen and has a plan, that you're going to follow, and can control everything down to the minute detail, or you have free will. You can't have both. And if you are going to continue to be religious, you have to accept that there are some fallacies there. You just can't act that both of these propositions can exist at the same time.

 

Either birth control will prevent you from having a child that God wants you to have, and thus God can't overturn the use of birth control, or, God wanted you to take birth control all along and led you to make that choice, thus giving you the amount of children he planned for you anyways. Then throw in some of those talking points about how no abortion, even in rape, because that baby is a gift from God, and it just gets more confusing. A baby conceived on birth control should be even more amazing because God wanted that baby so much more he reversed your vasectomy! /s

I agree. It is a illogical belief IMO.

[Jamiesmum]

I have been catching up on the older series and one off specials from the 14 children days. And while JB and M claims they have brought all 19 up the same way, instilling in them the same values, this is so untrue. Apart from the older girls doing the actual bringing up, the definition of modesty has undergone a radical change. From long dresses with long sleeved under shirts and lace up boots with socks, the girls now wear near knee length skirts, body skimming tops and the dreaded thongs, or flip flops as they are called in the US. (I'm Australian).

And the change in behaviour of those boys is just appalling. They seem to do what ever they can get away with. JB and M seem like they can't be bothered with real discipline, and neither do their "buddies". The Bates kids are so much better behaved.

I can only speculate as to the reason. Is it because JB and M have become more relaxed with the younger ones, knowing no great harm will come to them? Or is it because JB and M have realised that they need to seem more " normal" to remain relevant to their audience?

And while I'm getting things off my chest, that whole thing about M not being able to pick up or hold a child older than 6 months? She should have reviewed previous footage of her doing just that before she said it. You Tube (and TLC) can make a liar of anyone if it has been caught on film.

I know more will come up. Maintain the rage.

[jb0495]

I know during the Bates show Kelly & Gil said they'd become more lax with the younger ones BUT they were all well behaved still. Kelly/Gill did disciplining themselves, they didn't make the older kids responsible for the younger ones. The younger ones did a lot for themselves, helped packing their things etc. It was refreshing compared to the Duggars.

[Higgins]

I have been catching up on the older series and one off specials from the 14 children days. And while JB and M claims they have brought all 19 up the same way, instilling in them the same values, this is so untrue. Apart from the older girls doing the actual bringing up, the definition of modesty has undergone a radical change. From long dresses with long sleeved under shirts and lace up boots with socks, the girls now wear near knee length skirts, body skimming tops and the dreaded thongs, or flip flops as they are called in the US. (I'm Australian).

And the change in behaviour of those boys is just appalling. They seem to do what ever they can get away with. JB and M seem like they can't be bothered with real discipline, and neither do their "buddies". The Bates kids are so much better behaved.

I can only speculate as to the reason. Is it because JB and M have become more relaxed with the younger ones, knowing no great harm will come to them? Or is it because JB and M have realised that they need to seem more " normal" to remain relevant to their audience?

And while I'm getting things off my chest, that whole thing about M not being able to pick up or hold a child older than 6 months? She should have reviewed previous footage of her doing just that before she said it. You Tube (and TLC) can make a liar of anyone if it has been caught on film.

I know more will come up. Maintain the rage.

I think it is a little of all those things. I think it is a small but significant improvement. I know I mellowed a bit with my younger kids. 

[JLG]

They've come a long way since the homemade prairie stuff from Jana's middle school sweat shop, but I think the clothing looks cheap and a few years behind trend, because it is. They have some pretty pricey shoes now (UGGs, Sperrys, etc.), but the clothes still look like last season's Target clearance rack or nicer Goodwill odds and ends. Then they Modesty-fy everything, which makes it look even weirder. You just can't take a tight strappy cropped top and try to add layers and length without it looking weird and off, or toss on every $1 Walmart clearance accessory and have a put together out fit. 

Lol.  Poor Jana, I'd forgotten about her making all the dresses.

 

Back in the 70's and 80's I went to school with a girl whose family belonged to an evangelical church of some sort.  Same deal.  She, her mother and her sisters had long, permed hair, top with another top under it and those heavy, bulky, long denim skirts.  After graduation, she cut her hair short and to this day I've never seen her in anything other than slacks.

[SmallTownMom]

Not sure I am in the right thread, but I am so angry I could spit nails.

 

I just watched the trailer for the new season, which I really hope I can purpose myself not to watch.

 

Since when is a child having a seizure something that should be on this show?  It's not entertainment, and what makes me even angrier, is there's Jill taking care of Josie!!!   Where the heck is Mechelle??!?!?   Oh, probably trying for number 20.

 

Wonder what Jill's big announcement is.  Let's all act surprised, now.

 

Bunch of morons.

[bigskygirl]

I believe Jana was with Josie in the hospital. I cannot believe they let this be filmed. I can see Michelle playing the scared, concern mother. Nothing about these people surprises me anymore.

[floridamom]

This, folks, would not be the first time that Jana was "on duty" at the hospital with Josie. A time ago when Josie was hospitalized, it was Jana who was in the room with her as Josie's birth mother was away in El Salvador having to speak personally to some government official with Jim Bob....when the call came to them about Josie, Michelle feigned concern and shock that something medical actually happened to Josie, who was born with no after effects  from a premature birth..How a mother could leave such a fragile baby and go off to another country to "get more attention" is beyond me. If she didn't want to go, but Jim Bob "made her" go with him and keeping with succumbing to your husband, she is still an idiot in my opinon. A mother instinctively knows better...well, there I said it, "a mother" and we all know Michelle isn't much more than an incubation machine...

The Duggars do not live in rural timbucktu, but just outside of town so the emergency squad shouldn't have needed more time to respond. I think they simply just didn't call asap. How is it that a camera crew just happened to be there? Also I wonder when this happened? Parents, wake up and get your daughter the help she requires..also, please give your other "little girls" speech therapy and a decent education NOW.

[floridamom]

There comes a point, IMO, that your hair is simply too long...it's too long to wear up and it's too stringy and into everything when worn down. Jill has reached that point with her hair. It just doesn't look good anymore. I doubt that it's because she's expecting. She also needs to ditch those spandex shirts and perhaps choose some tasteful maternity dresses. The two piece look just isn't doing it for her as she is carrying largely and a one piece cover like a dress would look more tasteful. I don't think those spandex, or tight outfits look flattering on any pregnant woman as clothing needs TO FIT no matter what your shape and for whatever reason.

That wedding planner of Jill's looked awful running around pregnant so heavily with the same type of spandex outfit. Just not tasteful. It's also not modest attire to flaunt one's abdomen as we all know what caused that in the first place... just a private thing between the two parents..These people annoy me, as you can tell.

Jill also needs a major fashion coach...those sneakers she wore in those pictures with benseewald and Jessa look terrible and it's not the first time she wore those sneakers. Her maxi skirt is NOT a maternity skirt as she wore that before her announcement which BTW, came one hour after she got up out of bed and her feet hit the ground...so not modest either. We all know exactly what day she "did it" successfully...some things should remain private..but, that's just my opinion.