BtVS in the Media

[steelyis]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Okay, THAT is a lot more disturbing than to say Joss shouted at the cast. 

Depending on what happened, and I don't want to assume the worst, I really don't, but if there was some kind of harassment I want Joss away from any levers of power in the entertainment business.

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Charisma Carpenter's tattoo was not a big deal. Professional makeup artists who work on tv shows and movies cover up actors' tattoos all the time. You just slap some dermablend on and you're good to go.

Right?

If Pete Davidson can hide his many, many tats, then CC could obscure a tiny tattoo on her wrist, no problem.

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

If you read Slayers and Vampires it explains why CC was fired and it does stand to reason, her pregnancy really screwed everything up, the tatt was an incredibly stupid thing to do in a show about vampires and they needed to cut costs if they were going to bring Spike over as a regular and keep the show going.  

I reiterate Joss is a good writer. He'd also been in the business for decades at that point, he knew how to handle a situation like that. He could have found a work around if he cared to.

Instead, he got mad and screwed up one of his shows and made CC's life miserable. He didn't get to fulfill his vision for the show that season, so what? He's not the only show runner who's had to adapt when real life rears its head. He's not so special that he has the right to punish a grown ass woman when she refuses to put her life on hold so he could put his perfect vision on the screen.

[shantown]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I have sympathy with him, he was running 3 tv shows at once, sleep deprived and with a multitude of problems, the captain of his ship, the general of his army, I'm sure he couldn't be nice to everyone all the time. 

I really do not understand this argument that keeps being made. "He was so busy, it was stressful to have so many jobs, boo hoo" - Like what on earth? If he was so busy that he couldn't handle it he should have delegated or stepped down. How is that in any way an excuse to denigrate and degrade people? I'd tell Joss "Take a nap and eat a snickers, bitch! You're aren't irreplaceable!"

[whiporee]

On 2/11/2021 at 4:18 AM, lembergwatcher said:

"Trachtenberg, who played Buffy Summers’ young sister Dawn on the show, re-posted Gellar’s statement to her own Instagram feed, and commented that Whedon’s behavior with her “as a teenager” was “not appropriate.”

“Thank you @sarahmgellar for saying this,” Trachtenberg wrote. “I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman…. To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior……” Later, Trachtenberg added, “What he did was very bad. But we win. By surviving!”

A rep for Trachtenberg said she has no further comment" (c)
https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/sarah-michelle-gellar-joss-whedon-allegations-1234905160/

 

Okay, they HAVE to explain that. That statement is loaded with innuendos that are grotesque. No matter what you feel about Whedon, if there is not a sexual component to that situation, it's it completely unfair to him to let that insinuation exist. And if there was a sexual component to it, then EVERY SINGLE PERSON on that set -- those who made and knew about the rule she talks about -- is in a way complicit. 

Rudeness, yelling, playing favorites, being unsupportive of a pregnancy are in a MUCH different category that MT is suggesting here, and unless she is saying JW was not toxic or mean, but primally abusive towards her on the set, she needs to clarify that statement. He may be an asshole, but being an asshole does not equate to being a sexual predator, which is what her statement implies. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by whiporee

[Gigi43]

Isn't firing a woman for having a baby a crime? No matter how many shows you have, you don't get to violate laws in place to protect women (Joss, the big feminist should understand that.)  There was one woman to get pregnant through both shows runs and she was fired that season. If Alexis Denisof had been fired for the Bells Paulsy since it required different camera shots, would anyone even defend Joss? Would it be acceptable for Joss be able to weigh in on his choice of treatment to best suit the show, since it seems to some (and this is only for the people who feel this way, obviously) Joss had a right to expect Charisma to make sure she didn't become pregnant and get rid of the baby since she did? 

 

This is partly why women are getting pregnant later in life or not having kids. Because of how some workplaces will view it as an affront to them and fear they'll be out of a job because employers can get around the laws by using "cut backs" or finding something minor they did wrong that wouldn't have mattered otherwise (that's why more lawsuits don't happen, new moms can't afford to go to court and if they employer can say random excuses to cover up the real reason.) 

 

It sounds like Joss did something terrible to Michelle and I don't understand why that's not bigger, either. Maybe because Michelle is on social media less than Charisma? She was underage. 

[Evie]

JW must still be sleep-deprived and stressed almost 20 years later, I guess. Being toxic or mean, verbally or emotionally abusive is not okay, no matter what JW was dealing with.  I don't think he should necessarily lose his career or anything, but he should apologize, reflect on his actions, and try to do better in the future. Now, if he was sexually inappropriate to Michelle in any way, it should be over for him. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Evie

[whiporee]

30 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

Isn't firing a woman for having a baby a crime? No matter how many shows you have, you don't get to violate laws in place to protect women (Joss, the big feminist should understand that.)  There was one woman to get pregnant through both shows runs and she was fired that season. If Alexis Denisof had been fired for the Bells Paulsy since it required different camera shots, would anyone even defend Joss? Would it be acceptable for Joss be able to weigh in on his choice of treatment to best suit the show, since it seems to some (and this is only for the people who feel this way, obviously) Joss had a right to expect Charisma to make sure she didn't become pregnant and get rid of the baby since she did? 

 

This is partly why women are getting pregnant later in life or not having kids. Because of how some workplaces will view it as an affront to them and fear they'll be out of a job because employers can get around the laws by using "cut backs" or finding something minor they did wrong that wouldn't have mattered otherwise (that's why more lawsuits don't happen, new moms can't afford to go to court and if they employer can say random excuses to cover up the real reason.) 

 

It sounds like Joss did something terrible to Michelle and I don't understand why that's not bigger, either. Maybe because Michelle is on social media less than Charisma? She was underage. 

There's two different conversations here. The more important one is MT's insinuations. They need to be clarified, and if they re as they are being interpreted, it's a much different story. 

And, while I think it's open to interpretation, he didn't fire CC for being pregnant. He fired her because his reaction to her pregnancy was to write the character into an irredeemable corner, and once they got to that corner there was nothing to do with Cordy. (I know it wasn't her, but she screwed Conner and had him murder a girl at her behest. Not even Angelus was shown that badly).  There was really nothing to do with Conner, either, except reboot him and make him go away. 

I don't think anyone thinks JW would be justified in asking CC to have an abortion. But, by her own admission, she didn't tell him about it until lat into the season's filming, when things were already set. It doesn't justify him being a total dick about it, but it does explain why he would be frustrated. Likewise with the tattoo -- yes, everyone can adjust for things like that. But if you make the decision to do it after you've  got the part, that's saying something to your coworkers that you don't care they have to put more effort into their day. 

The much bigger question tho9ugh, is MT's statement. That needs to be investigated and acted on, one way or the other. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 minutes ago, whiporee said:

And, while I think it's open to interpretation, he didn't fire CC for being pregnant. He fired her because his reaction to her pregnancy was to write the character into an irredeemable corner, and once they got to that corner there was nothing to do with Cordy. (I know it wasn't her, but she screwed Conner and had him murder a girl at her behest. Not even Angelus was shown that badly). 

How exactly is that more irredeemable than the mass murderers Spike, Angel and Anya? Willow who tried to destroy the world? Or even Harmony, the funny vampire who killed innocent people nevertheless? Cordelia was possessed and still did  less damage than some of the others to boot. If Joss wanted to kill her off, that's his prerogative, but she was not irredeemable at all, especially by the extremely low standards of the Buffyverse.

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But, by her own admission, she didn't tell him about it until lat into the season's filming, when things were already set.

Is that true because people keep saying it and I am yet to see any actual timeline. I have seen Tim Minear denying that Charisma delayed telling Whedon unreasonably long, though.

[cambridgeguy]

23 hours ago, whiporee said:

That creates an interesting question -- is it abusive to take a character you created and make them behave badly? If you flip a character into the bad guy three years in -- changing them from a protagonist to an antagonist -- is that fair to do to the actor who had invested their time and energy into building the character in question? Doing that -- making a beloved character a villain -- does damage an actor's public image (if they re mostly identified with the character). I'm thinking a lot about Danarys here -- beloved, people naming their babies after her and such -- and then having her be a mass murderer. Was that fair to do to Emilia Clarke? 

It might be petty and stupid but writers have the right to make their fictional characters do whatever they want.  As long as it doesn't put the actor in unnecessary danger (we want you to do a bunch of incredibly dangerous stunts!) then so be it.  It's not the writer's fault if the fans blame the actor unless they go out and lie about them wanting to go in that direction.

And unfortunately actors get written off before their contracts are up all the time.  It's too hard to definitively prove that it corresponds to a pregnancy since the show runner can decide a character has run their course at any time.

[whiporee]

20 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

ow exactly is that more irredeemable than the mass murderers Spike, Angel and Anya? Willow who tried to destroy the world? Or even Harmony, the funny vampire who killed innocent people nevertheless? Cordelia was possessed and still did  less damage than some of the others to boot. If Joss wanted to kill her off, that's his prerogative, but she was not irredeemable at all, especially by the extremely low standards of the Buffyverse.

I think because it was bloody and tangible. They showed it. The others you mentioned weren't (except for the flaying of Warren Mars, which showed Willow killing someone who had it coming). Angel kills Jenny, she falls to the ground. People get bit, they collapse. Unless I'm misremembering, they showed the girl begging and pleading for her life and "Cordy" provoked him to do it anyway. 

As for the timeline. I don't know if it's true. I know that I've read that season took a big shift halfway through to deal with the pregnancy, although JW always intended for Cordy to sleep with Conner. And CC herself said in her tweet that JW repeatedly didn't take calls from her agent, who was calling to tell him she was pregnant. Also the "fat" comment 4 months in seemed to imply he didn't know she was pregnant when he said it. 

[Gigi43]

34 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

How exactly is that more irredeemable than the mass murderers Spike, Angel and Anya? Willow who tried to destroy the world? Or even Harmony, the funny vampire who killed innocent people nevertheless? Cordelia was possessed and still did  less damage than some of the others to boot. If Joss wanted to kill her off, that's his prerogative, but she was not irredeemable at all, especially by the extremely low standards of the Buffyverse.

Is that true because people keep saying it and I am yet to see any actual timeline. I have seen Tim Minear denying that Charisma delayed telling Whedon unreasonably long, though.

 

Thank you! Exactly. 

 

Cordelia had her body taken over by a demon. Angelus' body count and blood writing in Innocence tops that, his body count over all in Buffy s2, torturing Giles, Angel got a spin off anyway. Angelus in season 4 didn't kill humans (though he did threaten to 'rape Fred to death') but s3 of Angel we learned what Angelus did to Holtz's family, s2 was wine cellar with a soul. We can differentiate between soul and no soul,  dark unlife crisis, and "magic addiction" since Willow was going to turn Dawn back into a ball of energy and destroy the world, Spike once gloated he hired a child molesting vampire in Angel s1 and Seeing Red scene was brutal and he was hired for s5, but Cordy being brainwashed/possessed was just too much?  I like Spike and Angel in s5 but I wouldn't say get rid of Cordy for him. The "Reasons" for the firing goes back and forth between budget cuts and the story. Andy Hallet was made a regular in s4 and there was Fred wit who wasn't part of the fabric of the show and really didn't do much in s5 (except for the last few episodes, Lorne did almost nothing most of the season.) I get bringing on Spike to get Buffy viewers, but the idea that he's more redeemable than Cordy possessed and given no chance to redeem herself is laughable. Everyone loved her You're Welcome and were glad to have our pallets cleansed by Vintage Cordy back.

Charisma has said she didn't hide it and Tim Minear and Steven DeKnight said she didn't hide it. Screenrant included her in an 'actresses who kid their pregnancies' thing  once and she and DeKnight called them out on reporting a false rumor. I've only ever seen she hid it as random rumor.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Gigi43

[Jack Shaftoe]

20 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I think because it was bloody and tangible. They showed it. The others you mentioned weren't (except for the flaying of Warren Mars, which showed Willow killing someone who had it coming). Angel kills Jenny, she falls to the ground. People get bit, they collapse. Unless I'm misremembering, they showed the girl begging and pleading for her life and "Cordy" provoked him to do it anyway. 

They also showed Angel and Spike killing an awful lot of people, Anya created an alternative world where the entire main cast died. And most importantly, Cordelia wasn't "in the driver's seat" in S4, she (or rather her possessed body) might have done far worse and still been redeemable because she was the victim.

Quote

Also the "fat" comment 4 months in seemed to imply he didn't know she was pregnant when he said it. 

Nah, I think implies the exact opposite - he was pissed that he had to scratch his plan to rehash Becoming once again, so he kept insulting CC. Sounds extremely believable to me. After all, this is the guy who initially thought Amber Benson was too fat for the role of Tara...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Most women don't tell people they're pregnant until after the 12 week mark (this is the benchmark that doctors recommend), especially if they've had a miscarriage. Charisma miscarried during S3 so I'm guessing she wanted to make sure before she told anyone the news.

As for the rumor that Charisma didn't tell anyone on the show about her pregnancy until waaaaaay into the season, her son was born at the beginning of March. Human gestation is typically 40 weeks which means she got pregnant at the end of May/beginning of June. Her 12 week mark would have been mid August.

When Screenrant decided to dig up this old rumor in 2019, she stated that she never hid her pregnancy from production:

Tim Minear, one of the AtS producers confirmed what she said.

Later that year, she did an interview with Complex where she said that she informed production that she was pregnant before S4 began.

[Gigi43]

17 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

When Screenrant decided to dig up this old rumor in 2019, she stated that she never hid her pregnancy from production:

Tim Minear, one of the AtS producers confirmed what she said.

 

 

Yup. That's the one DeKnight responded too as well.

 

 

[Future Cat Lady]

I never bought the idea that Cordelia's story has run his course. They easily could've brought her back to her old self again. I naively thought that she mostly had been fired for budget reasons. I think money may have played a part, but I think it was mostly Joss being a complete dick. And lets not forget that she found out she was fired from the Press, and that she was lied to about Cordelia's death. 

[ruby24]

8 hours ago, whiporee said:

Okay, they HAVE to explain that. That statement is loaded with innuendos that are grotesque. No matter what you feel about Whedon, if there is not a sexual component to that situation, it's it completely unfair to him to let that insinuation exist. And if there was a sexual component to it, then EVERY SINGLE PERSON on that set -- those who made and knew about the rule she talks about -- is in a way complicit. 

Rudeness, yelling, playing favorites, being unsupportive of a pregnancy are in a MUCH different category that MT is suggesting here, and unless she is saying JW was not toxic or mean, but primally abusive towards her on the set, she needs to clarify that statement. He may be an asshole, but being an asshole does not equate to being a sexual predator, which is what her statement implies. 

I agree with this. If she's not implying sexual abuse here it's unfair to make it seem like that's the case. If it IS sexual abuse then I think we should know that too, because that launches these accusations onto an entirely other level.

[General Days]

I 

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I agree with this. If she's not implying sexual abuse here it's unfair to make it seem like that's the case.

I agree with the above.

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

If it IS sexual abuse then I think we should know that too, because that launches these accusations onto an entirely other level.

I do not agree with this. If Michelle Trachtenberg was sexually abused (or harassed) on that set, she owes no one anything.

I realize those two ideas are in conflict with each other, but she was a minor on that set. She doesn't owe us a thing. She was owed protection by the adults in her workplace  -- from the adults in her workplace.

[Hiyo]

Quote

is it abusive to take a character you created and make them behave badly?

If you are doing it from a purely creative standpoint, then no.

Doing it to punish an actor or actress? If not abusive then certainly a dickish move.

How many times have we joked "Damn, what did he/she do to piss off the producers?" when an character receives a humiliating storyline or a storyline that kind of ruins the character? In this case, it literally happened. Make her evil, put her in a coma, then kill her off...

Quote

Okay, THAT is a lot more disturbing than to say Joss shouted at the cast. 

Even shouting at your cast, playing favorites, pitting your cast against one another, writing them off the show for personal reasons, etc, is not cool. Having a toxic work environment is just not cool. A situation doesn't need to have actual physical sexual assaults for it to be deemed "disturbing".

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He's not the only show runner who's had to adapt when real life rears its head.

He really needs to take a lesson or two from J. Michael Straczynski's playbook about how to adapt to real life interfering with your work.

Quote

I have sympathy with him, he was running 3 tv shows at once, sleep deprived and with a multitude of problems, the captain of his ship, the general of his army, I'm sure he couldn't be nice to everyone all the time. 

That's really no excuse to be an abusive asshole.

Quote

He fired her because his reaction to her pregnancy was to write the character into an irredeemable corner, and once they got to that corner there was nothing to do with Cordy.

Except...no. All they had to do was say "Hey, Cordelia is back to being her own self, no more demon possession once she gave birth to Jasmine".

[Joe Hellandback]

On 2/12/2021 at 3:32 PM, steelyis said:

Depending on what happened, and I don't want to assume the worst, I really don't, but if there was some kind of harassment I want Joss away from any levers of power in the entertainment business.

Right?

If Pete Davidson can hide his many, many tats, then CC could obscure a tiny tattoo on her wrist, no problem.

I reiterate Joss is a good writer. He'd also been in the business for decades at that point, he knew how to handle a situation like that. He could have found a work around if he cared to.

Instead, he got mad and screwed up one of his shows and made CC's life miserable. He didn't get to fulfill his vision for the show that season, so what? He's not the only show runner who's had to adapt when real life rears its head. He's not so special that he has the right to punish a grown ass woman when she refuses to put her life on hold so he could put his perfect vision on the screen.

She was an adult, she should have acted like one, I agree, he should have told her face to face. He did give CC a great send off (when Sabrina Lloyd asked for equal pay with her male co-stars on Sliders she was not only fired but her character packed off to an alien slave breeder camp). 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, steelyis said:

Depending on what happened, and I don't want to assume the worst, I really don't, but if there was some kind of harassment I want Joss away from any levers of power in the entertainment business.

Right?

If Pete Davidson can hide his many, many tats, then CC could obscure a tiny tattoo on her wrist, no problem.

I reiterate Joss is a good writer. He'd also been in the business for decades at that point, he knew how to handle a situation like that. He could have found a work around if he cared to.

Instead, he got mad and screwed up one of his shows and made CC's life miserable. He didn't get to fulfill his vision for the show that season, so what? He's not the only show runner who's had to adapt when real life rears its head. He's not so special that he has the right to punish a grown ass woman when she refuses to put her life on hold so he could put his perfect vision on the screen.

I would disagree, he WAS irreplaceable, look at how Buffy season 6 suffered without him. My problem is so many of these folks now complaining were quite happy to keep working with him and singing his praises for years?

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

If you are doing it from a purely creative standpoint, then no.

Doing it to punish an actor or actress? If not abusive then certainly a dickish move.

How many times have we joked "Damn, what did he/she do to piss off the producers?" when an character receives a humiliating storyline or a storyline that kind of ruins the character? In this case, it literally happened. Make her evil, put her in a coma, then kill her off...

Even shouting at your cast, playing favorites, pitting your cast against one another, writing them off the show for personal reasons, etc, is not cool. Having a toxic work environment is just not cool. A situation doesn't need to have actual physical sexual assaults for it to be deemed "disturbing".

He really needs to take a lesson or two from J. Michael Straczynski's playbook about how to adapt to real life interfering with your work.

That's really no excuse to be an abusive asshole.

Except...no. All they had to do was say "Hey, Cordelia is back to being her own self, no more demon possession once she gave birth to Jasmine".

Part of me wants to say "God what a bunch of namby pambies these actors are, how is Joss any different from Hitchcock, James Cameron or Stanley Kubrick?". It's the MT stuff that really disturbs me  

[Joe Hellandback]

13 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

They also showed Angel and Spike killing an awful lot of people, Anya created an alternative world where the entire main cast died. And most importantly, Cordelia wasn't "in the driver's seat" in S4, she (or rather her possessed body) might have done far worse and still been redeemable because she was the victim.

Nah, I think implies the exact opposite - he was pissed that he had to scratch his plan to rehash Becoming once again, so he kept insulting CC. Sounds extremely believable to me. After all, this is the guy who initially thought Amber Benson was too fat for the role of Tara...

Which to be fair a lot of people on The Bronze agreed with. The fact that he did cast such an unconventional beauty is to his credit. 

14 hours ago, Evie said:

JW must still be sleep-deprived and stressed almost 20 years later, I guess. Being toxic or mean, verbally or emotionally abusive is not okay, no matter what JW was dealing with.  I don't think he should necessarily lose his career or anything, but he should apologize, reflect on his actions, and try to do better in the future. Now, if he was sexually inappropriate to Michelle in any way, it should be over for him. 

Which is why I want more detail, what EXACTLY are we talking about here? And did we ever discover which actresses Joss had his affairs with? 

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Charisma Carpenter's tattoo was not a big deal. Professional makeup artists who work on tv shows and movies cover up actors' tattoos all the time. You just slap some dermablend on and you're good to go. They could have also had her wear long sleeves or bracelets. One of my friends has a job where she isn't supposed to have visible tattoos but she wears a bunch of bracelets on that arm. It's been years and not a single person she has worked with in that time has ever realized she has a tattoo. She likes her tattoo but, like Charisma, she wasn't going to avoid doing something she wanted to do in her personal life just because of her job.

As for ASH not knowing, that's not surprising. Some predators are smart enough not to abuse their victims in front of the kind of people who would intervene. ASH seemed visibly shaken and guilty that he hadn't noticed what was going on.

J. August Richards and Eliza Dushku have also publicly supported Charisma today.

And yet they both still went on to work on other Joss projects? 

[Hiyo]

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She was an adult, she should have acted like one

All things considered, I'd say she did. Definitely more of an adult about it than say, Joss ever was.

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My problem is so many of these folks now complaining were quite happy to keep working with him and singing his praises for years?

 

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And yet they both still went on to work on other Joss projects? 

Because of the imbalance of the power structure in Hollywood, yes. Women and minorities have many times had to suck things up, for various reasons (the lack of quality roles for women, and the lack of roles in general for minorities, not to mention the salary disparity between them and say, white males), and can't always be picky about who they work with because they need the job. Not to mention as we have seen, when women and/or minorities voice their concerns about showrunners, producers, directors, etc, they can be labeled as "difficult to work with", which leads to them having a bad reputation, which leads to them getting hired less.

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Part of me wants to say "God what a bunch of namby pambies these actors are, how is Joss any different from Hitchcock, James Cameron or Stanley Kubrick?"

Just because other people have gotten away with it in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean it is ok now for people to get away with it as well. Also, since when does not accepting verbal abuse in a toxic work environment from your boss suddenly make someone a namby pamby?

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The fact that he did cast such an unconventional beauty is to his credit.

A curvy brunette is considered unconventional? Ov vey, no wonder women have image issues...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

And it's not to JW's credit that Amber Benson was cast. He did not want to cast her at all. The only reason she ended up getting the part was because Marti Noxon refused to back down. Amber was cast in spite of JW's wishes.

More support for Charisma in the past few days:

Marti Noxon: How the TV Industry Can Better Protect Writers From the Next Toxic Showrunner

Jose Molina (worked on both Angel and Firefly)

James Marsters (Spike)

Nell Scovell (long time TV writer)

Glen Mazzarra (TV producer & writer)

[steelyis]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

He really needs to take a lesson or two from J. Michael Straczynski's playbook about how to adapt to real life interfering with your work.

I call Joss a good writer, JMS is a good writer and good show runner. The grace and dignity he gave Michael O’Hare was so decent and kind it makes me want to cry.

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

She was an adult, she should have acted like one.

From all accounts CC was nothing but professional during the entire conflict. Joss should have reciprocated in kind. Instead he went on a power trip.

3 hours ago, Hiyo said:

All things considered, I'd say she did. Definitely more of an adult about it than say, Joss ever was.

 

Because of the imbalance of the power structure in Hollywood, yes. Women and minorities have many times had to suck things up, for various reasons (the lack of quality roles for women, and the lack of roles in general for minorities, not to mention the salary disparity between them and say, white males), and can't always be picky about who they work with because they need the job. Not to mention as we have seen, when women and/or minorities voice their concerns about showrunners, producers, directors, etc, they can be labeled as "difficult to work with", which leads to them having a bad reputation, which leads to them getting hired less.

Just because other people have gotten away with it in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean it is ok now for people to get away with it as well. Also, since when does not accepting verbal abuse in a toxic work environment from your boss suddenly make someone a namby pamby?

A curvy brunette is considered unconventional? Ov vey, no wonder women have image issues...

This post? *Chef's kiss*

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And it's not to JW's credit that Amber Benson was cast. He did not want to cast her at all. The only reason she ended up getting the part was because Marti Noxon refused to back down. Amber was cast in spite of JW's wishes.

More support for Charisma in the past few days:

Marti Noxon: How the TV Industry Can Better Protect Writers From the Next Toxic Showrunner

Jose Molina (worked on both Angel and Firefly)

James Marsters (Spike)

Nell Scovell (long time TV writer)

Glen Mazzarra (TV producer & writer)

That Glen Mazzara tweet bothers me.

NB was sending up smoke signals about Joss treating his performers poorly for years. Long before CC. NB often implied Joss considered actors meat puppets.

[Joe Hellandback]

2 hours ago, steelyis said:

I call Joss a good writer, JMS is a good writer and good show runner. The grace and dignity he gave Michael O’Hare was so decent and kind it makes me want to cry.

From all accounts CC was nothing but professional during the entire conflict. Joss should have reciprocated in kind. Instead he went on a power trip.

This post? *Chef's kiss*

That Glen Mazzara tweet bothers me.

NB was sending up smoke signals about Joss treating his performers poorly for years. Long before CC. NB often implied Joss considered actors meat puppets.

I disagree, Joss gave CC a great ending, comparable to Michael O'Hare in B5 who was actually suffering mental illness which had him stalking one of the makeup girls? It's also interesting to compare this to Claudia Christian's Maniac Cop 2 experience. I never heard that about Nic who to be fair had his own problems (as did ED of course not to mention GQ). And again, Joss did cast Amber at a time when everyone was Ally McBeal thin. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Joe Hellandback
Ally McBeal ref

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And it's not to JW's credit that Amber Benson was cast. He did not want to cast her at all. The only reason she ended up getting the part was because Marti Noxon refused to back down. Amber was cast in spite of JW's wishes.

More support for Charisma in the past few days:

Marti Noxon: How the TV Industry Can Better Protect Writers From the Next Toxic Showrunner

Jose Molina (worked on both Angel and Firefly)

James Marsters (Spike)

Nell Scovell (long time TV writer)

Glen Mazzarra (TV producer & writer)

Now you see that drives me up the WALL! He makes a joke, she laughs and he thinks they're fine. Decades later she now takes offence at it. That's happened to me so many times, you think you're fine with someone and suddenly they turn and attack you for (what you think is) no reason at all. I wonder if JW might have Aspergers/Autism? A person who is incredibly talented in some ways yet can't read social cues?  

Edited February 13, 2021 by Joe Hellandback
Moving bracket.

[steelyis]

30 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I disagree, Joss gave CC a great ending, comparable to Michael O'Hare in B5 who was actually suffering mental illness which had him stalking one of the makeup girls? It's also interesting to compare this to Claudia Christian's Maniac Cop 2 experience. I never heard that about Nic who to be fair had his own problems (as did ED of course not to mention GQ). And again, Joss did cast Amber at a time when everyone was Ally McBeal thin. 

I'm going to be very careful here, because you missed the point of why I mentioned JMS and Michael O'Hare, and I'm not sure why.

I mentioned JMS because I wanted to compare his and Joss's show running styles. When JMS dealt with roadblocks to his grand vision for B5 he didn't turn on his actors (unless you want to count Robert Rusler), or his crew. JMS sat down and figured out how to get to where he wanted to be, and didn't feel the need to call people names, or trash a character because he was angry at the actor (unless you want to count Robert Rusler). He got creative, which was his job!

As a show runner JMS was decent, refreshingly accommodating, and most importantly, professional.

Joss, on the other hand, when his ability to put what he wanted on screen ran into trouble his ego made him go nuclear when he didn't get his way. Not only did he get unnecessarily mean and unprofessional, he forgot he's a writer who has the talent, imagination, and experience to figure out a way to work around something as simple as a tattoo, or as tricky as a pregnancy.

Instead, it seemed like a good idea to him to go out of his way to make everyone miserable. That shouldn't be how a show runner handles trouble on their sets. Joss could have, and should have, done better. But, he didn't, and here we are.

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Now you see that drives me up the WALL! He makes a joke, she laughs and he thinks they're fine. Decades later she now takes offence at it. That's happened to me so many times, you think you're fine with someone and suddenly they turn and attack you for (what you think is) no reason at all. I wonder if JW might have Aspergers/Autism? A person who is incredibly talented in some ways yet can't read social cues?  

Or he is another tyrannical boss who abuses his employees simply because he can? This is even more common in Hollywood then in most other industries and such bosses are hardly rare overall, alas. We have been joking about Whedon's inability to admit his mistakes for many years now (it's always the fault of the network executives or some other entity), this might well be another symptom of his inability to run things without thinking that everyone else is incompetent and needs to be yelled at to keep them in line.

[Joe Hellandback]

38 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I'm going to be very careful here, because you missed the point of why I mentioned JMS and Michael O'Hare, and I'm not sure why.

I mentioned JMS because I wanted to compare his and Joss's show running styles. When JMS dealt with roadblocks to his grand vision for B5 he didn't turn on his actors (unless you want to count Robert Rusler), or his crew. JMS sat down and figured out how to get to where he wanted to be, and didn't feel the need to call people names, or trash a character because he was angry at the actor (unless you want to count Robert Rusler). He got creative, which was his job!

As a show runner JMS was decent, refreshingly accommodating, and most importantly, professional.

Joss, on the other hand, when his ability to put what he wanted on screen ran into trouble his ego made him go nuclear when he didn't get his way. Not only did he get unnecessarily mean and unprofessional, he forgot he's a writer who has the talent, imagination, and experience to figure out a way to work around something as simple as a tattoo, or as tricky as a pregnancy.

Instead, it seemed like a good idea to him to go out of his way to make everyone miserable. That shouldn't be how a show runner handles trouble on their sets. Joss could have, and should have, done better. But, he didn't, and here we are.

Horses for course, I always thought Russler was forced upon JMS by the studio because they wanted some eye candy? But remember, they did effectively fire CC (huh, coincidence? Maybe they both have mothers called Martha?) at the end of four? But JMS wasn't simultaneously running three other shows. SMG had something of a reputation for being a diva on set but Tim Minear in S&V just puts that down to her being so tired all the time, the show was nicknamed Buffy the Weekend Slayer. So what must Joss have been like? 

[Joe Hellandback]

20 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Or he is another tyrannical boss who abuses his employees simply because he can? This is even more common in Hollywood then in most other industries and such bosses are hardly rare overall, alas. We have been joking about Whedon's inability to admit his mistakes for many years now (it's always the fault of the network executives or some other entity), this might well be another symptom of his inability to run things without thinking that everyone else is incompetent and needs to be yelled at to keep them in line.

Possibly but again, everyone has been singing his praises for years, working with him on other shows and attending the anniversaries with him and now this guy on Justice League whinges and suddenly CC resurrects her sorepoint from nearly 20 years ago and everyone is suddenly saying the reverse. The Captain of the ship, sergeant of the platoon etc does sometimes need to assert their authority, I wonder is there any more to it than this?  

[Delphi]

Cordy first of all did not get a fantastic send off,  while Thank You was a great episode,  let's be real it was a reworked plot that put focus on Cordelia instead of Buffy.

Secondly it's not like Charisma randomly leaped onto this subject,  she took time out of her life to own up to something that has previously caused her strenuous emotional duress to back a minority actor who accused the same producer of the same kind of misconduct.   

[Gigi43]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I disagree, Joss gave CC a great ending.

 

You're Welcome only happened because it was the 100th episode and fans were mad at the rumors of her being fired for being pregnant, how s4 went, and her finding out she was fired via the press. There are reports that SMG was considered for the 100th (then again later on) but between her aunt dying and scheduling conflicts (and Joss not wanting her NFA) so CC who was the co-star of Angel from ep1 was possibly an alternate even with the fans wanting it. Laying there in Home strapped to a bomb was a terrible send off. 

 

I saw Lesley-Ann Brandt tweeted CC. CC was in an episode of Lucifer. Lucifer moved from Canada to CA to film, got jerked around by Fox, has had several 'final seasons' from Netflix and Lesley-Ann (Maze, a character who always wears right clothes and is known for fights) and Rachel Harris (Linda) have been pregnant in back to back seasons, one ignored one written in. I can't imagine how Joss would handle that. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Gigi43

[Gigi43]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Possibly but again, everyone has been singing his praises for years, working with him on other shows and attending the anniversaries with him and now this guy on Justice League whinges and suddenly CC resurrects her sorepoint from nearly 20 years ago and everyone is suddenly saying the reverse. The Captain of the ship, sergeant of the platoon etc does sometimes need to assert their authority, I wonder is there any more to it than this?  

 

Attending anniversaries--- well, if they didn't that could be spun into being "ungrateful" for the job. I've heard people say SMG and David don't seem to appreciate BtVS/AtS enough and they don't sing his praises they way the likes of Amy Acker, Alyson Hannigan, Alexis, (I don't think either Sarah or David ever attended those invites at his house.) If you're at a fan convention and people ask if you'd do a movie you don't want to disappoint them and say no, especially if you feel it will never happen anyway, and maybe that's not the right time to level accusations because it's supposed to be a good time (the Angel reunion there was only mentions of a movie and CC seemed awkward) Once Joss got mainstream, speaking out could have been spun into "Oh they're mad he's not putting them in his hit movies." Joss had clout. You don't want to be labeled difficult or anything against someone with power. David has had a mega run on TV so did Alyson was in a mega hit show but it's not like the roles have been pouring in for a lot of the others.  With social media, #metoo, etc people can now assert themselves in ways they could not in 2003 and strength in numbers helps people get courage to come forward. Watch any Law and Order, that happens too once one victim comes forward others feel like they have a better chance of being believed. 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Gigi43

[cleo]

I had an abusive boss and after I quit I stayed in touch with her for professional reasons. You do what you have to to survive. Nor did I ever tell any of our colleagues any of it. It happens, it is very common that people get out of the situation  and then just drop it/play nice. Why? Bc unfortunately it often would blow up in their face otherwise.

[Jack Shaftoe]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Possibly but again, everyone has been singing his praises for years, working with him on other shows and attending the anniversaries with him and now this guy on Justice League whinges and suddenly CC resurrects her sorepoint from nearly 20 years ago and everyone is suddenly saying the reverse.

Everyone is saying the reverse now because the more people say it, the harder it will be for them to be blacklisted in Hollywood or branded as liars by the fans. Notice how they still refuse to give much detail, probably because Whedon might sue them and/or they will be labeled difficult. And most of those who are being critical now did not keep working with him - his well known favourites Alyson Hannigan, Amy Acker, Nathan Fillion, etc. have been silent so far.

[buffynut]

As someone who became a BtVS fan during season one, I have fond memories from the early years when we fans would get so excited when Joss would occasionally pop onto the original The Bronze website and post tidbits about the show. He seemed like such a fun, down to earth, likable guy, so it's sad to read about the toxic work environment the actors had to work in under him.   

[watcher1006]

4 hours ago, cleo said:

I had an abusive boss and after I quit I stayed in touch with her for professional reasons. You do what you have to to survive. Nor did I ever tell any of our colleagues any of it. It happens, it is very common that people get out of the situation  and then just drop it/play nice. Why? Bc unfortunately it often would blow up in their face otherwise.

Harvey Weinstein, now Joss Whedon. It seems odd that these stories would come out so many years after the fact but maybe it isn't surprising. It points to the power structure in the business that people don't want to speak up for fear of losing their careers. And such doesn't just apply to the actors. If all this was going on then people like Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson, and so on had to have been aware of it and kept silent.

[secnarf]

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Now you see that drives me up the WALL! He makes a joke, she laughs and he thinks they're fine. Decades later she now takes offence at it. That's happened to me so many times, you think you're fine with someone and suddenly they turn and attack you for (what you think is) no reason at all. I wonder if JW might have Aspergers/Autism? A person who is incredibly talented in some ways yet can't read social cues?  

NO.

There has never been ANY indication that he is on the autistic spectrum, nor would this behaviour be acceptable (or expected) from someone on the spectrum.

The "joke" was never "fine". He knew or ought to have known that. Pregnant or not, calling someone fat in a job interview is never okay. If she had done anything other than laughed it off, she blows any chance she has at succeeding in the interview, and potentially ruins further job prospects as well due to JW's influence. She took offense to it at the time and was unable to express this due to the power differential.

There have been rumblings of this sort of behaviour from Joss for a very long time and from many different shows. This isn't new. It isn't surprising. It has nothing to do with his ability to read social cues. He conceived of and wrote brilliant TV shows which displayed a keen awareness of social cues and norms. Based on this, I also have to believe he knew that his behaviour was offensive and harmful.

[steelyis]

53 minutes ago, secnarf said:

There have been rumblings of this sort of behaviour from Joss for a very long time and from many different shows. This isn't new. It isn't surprising. It has nothing to do with his ability to read social cues. He conceived of and wrote brilliant TV shows which displayed a keen awareness of social cues and norms. Based on this, I also have to believe he knew that his behaviour was offensive and harmful.

I'm on the spectrum, and I know people who are on the spectrum, and depending on where they are on the spectrum, social cues and norms aren't always missed or ignored. So some of us do recognize them and can even replicate them in certain circumstances. I sometimes have a problem understanding certain social cues in the moment, then a few hours can go by and I'll realize that they went completely over my head.

I have no idea if Joss is on the spectrum, so I won't even begin to speculate, but some autistic people can, and do, understand social cues.

[secnarf]

4 minutes ago, steelyis said:

I'm on the spectrum, and I know people who are on the spectrum, and depending on where they are on the spectrum, social cues and norms aren't always missed or ignored. So some of us do recognize them and can even replicate them in certain circumstances. I sometimes have a problem understanding certain social cues in the moment, then a few hours can go by and I'll realize that they went completely over my head.

I have no idea if Joss is on the spectrum, so I won't even begin to speculate, but some autistic people can, and do, understand social cues.

Sorry, I didn't mean that sentence to be evidence that he is not on the spectrum. I meant that sentence as the reason that I believe he knew his actions were wrong and harmful.

The earlier part of my post was an attempt to convey my belief that 1) we have no reason to think JW is on the spectrum and 2) even if he was, that doesn't explain away his (alleged) actions. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

Sorry, I didn't mean that sentence to be evidence that he is not on the spectrum. I meant that sentence as the reason that I believe he knew his actions were wrong and harmful.

The earlier part of my post was an attempt to convey my belief that 1) we have no reason to think JW is on the spectrum and 2) even if he was, that doesn't explain away his (alleged) actions. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I understand.

Just, no shade, don't make calls like about autism. We have enough problems.

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, Delphi said:

Cordy first of all did not get a fantastic send off,  while Thank You was a great episode,  let's be real it was a reworked plot that put focus on Cordelia instead of Buffy.

Secondly it's not like Charisma randomly leaped onto this subject,  she took time out of her life to own up to something that has previously caused her strenuous emotional duress to back a minority actor who accused the same producer of the same kind of misconduct.   

I loved 'You're Welcome', I appreciate CC been sore about this for years but she should let it drop frankly. And WHO CARES if it was a 'minority' actor?

14 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

 

You're Welcome only happened because it was the 100th episode and fans were mad at the rumors of her being fired for being pregnant, how s4 went, and her finding out she was fired via the press. There are reports that SMG was considered for the 100th (then again later on) but between her aunt dying and scheduling conflicts (and Joss not wanting her NFA) so CC who was the co-star of Angel from ep1 was possibly an alternate even with the fans wanting it. Laying there in Home strapped to a bomb was a terrible send off. 

 

I saw Lesley-Ann Brandt tweeted CC. CC was in an episode of Lucifer. Lucifer moved from Canada to CA to film, got jerked around by Fox, has had several 'final seasons' from Netflix and Lesley-Ann (Maze, a character who always wears right clothes and is known for fights) and Rachel Harris (Linda) have been pregnant in back to back seasons, one ignored one written in. I can't imagine how Joss would handle that. 

 

 

Forgive me but what do you mean by NFA in this context?

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

 

Attending anniversaries--- well, if they didn't that could be spun into being "ungrateful" for the job. I've heard people say SMG and David don't seem to appreciate BtVS/AtS enough and they don't sing his praises they way the likes of Amy Acker, Alyson Hannigan, Alexis, (I don't think either Sarah or David ever attended those invites at his house.) If you're at a fan convention and people ask if you'd do a movie you don't want to disappoint them and say no, especially if you feel it will never happen anyway, and maybe that's not the right time to level accusations because it's supposed to be a good time (the Angel reunion there was only mentions of a movie and CC seemed awkward) Once Joss got mainstream, speaking out could have been spun into "Oh they're mad he's not putting them in his hit movies." Joss had clout. You don't want to be labeled difficult or anything against someone with power. David has had a mega run on TV so did Alyson was in a mega hit show but it's not like the roles have been pouring in for a lot of the others.  With social media, #metoo, etc people can now assert themselves in ways they could not in 2003 and strength in numbers helps people get courage to come forward. Watch any Law and Order, that happens too once one victim comes forward others feel like they have a better chance of being believed. 

 

Don't get me started on SVU! Well, remember ED and AH didn't come to the reunions and no one thought ill of them. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Joe Hellandback
Conventions/reunions

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Everyone is saying the reverse now because the more people say it, the harder it will be for them to be blacklisted in Hollywood or branded as liars by the fans. Notice how they still refuse to give much detail, probably because Whedon might sue them and/or they will be labeled difficult. And most of those who are being critical now did not keep working with him - his well known favourites Alyson Hannigan, Amy Acker, Nathan Fillion, etc. have been silent so far.

But you see I don't buy that, DB has had huge success post Joss and never said anything? Feuds like this aren't unknown on TV, Desperate Housewives, Charlies Angels, Sex and the City etc. 

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, buffynut said:

As someone who became a BtVS fan during season one, I have fond memories from the early years when we fans would get so excited when Joss would occasionally pop onto the original The Bronze website and post tidbits about the show. He seemed like such a fun, down to earth, likable guy, so it's sad to read about the toxic work environment the actors had to work in under him.   

But didn't they abolish the original Bronze because Joss and others fell out with Jeff Pruitt and waged war over the board? I only joined in season 6 and didn't know it was actually The Bronze 2.0

9 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Harvey Weinstein, now Joss Whedon. It seems odd that these stories would come out so many years after the fact but maybe it isn't surprising. It points to the power structure in the business that people don't want to speak up for fear of losing their careers. And such doesn't just apply to the actors. If all this was going on then people like Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson, and so on had to have been aware of it and kept silent.

Weinstein was a womaniser who exploited the casting couch but then arguably so did the women he slept with. Whilst Joss had affairs with some of the cast there's no indication he did that.  

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, secnarf said:

NO.

There has never been ANY indication that he is on the autistic spectrum, nor would this behaviour be acceptable (or expected) from someone on the spectrum.

The "joke" was never "fine". He knew or ought to have known that. Pregnant or not, calling someone fat in a job interview is never okay. If she had done anything other than laughed it off, she blows any chance she has at succeeding in the interview, and potentially ruins further job prospects as well due to JW's influence. She took offense to it at the time and was unable to express this due to the power differential.

There have been rumblings of this sort of behaviour from Joss for a very long time and from many different shows. This isn't new. It isn't surprising. It has nothing to do with his ability to read social cues. He conceived of and wrote brilliant TV shows which displayed a keen awareness of social cues and norms. Based on this, I also have to believe he knew that his behaviour was offensive and harmful.

Wrong! People can go undiagnosed all their lives and he does exhibit many of the signs. And yes, it is forgivable, the joke was it was evident she wasn't fat because she was pregnant, that was he said was evidently ridiculous. Can't tell you how many times I've made a joke and fallen out with people because they thought I was serious. But how would I know I had offended them if they then laughed at my joke and I thought everything was fine? 

Again, I disagree, so many great writers and artists are on the spectrum, they are absolutely fine when observing and writing about other people but not themselves. It's when they relax  and don't think about what they're saying it all breaks down.     

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, steelyis said:

I'm on the spectrum, and I know people who are on the spectrum, and depending on where they are on the spectrum, social cues and norms aren't always missed or ignored. So some of us do recognize them and can even replicate them in certain circumstances. I sometimes have a problem understanding certain social cues in the moment, then a few hours can go by and I'll realize that they went completely over my head.

I have no idea if Joss is on the spectrum, so I won't even begin to speculate, but some autistic people can, and do, understand social cues.

And I'm exactly the same, sometimes I can look back on events years afterwards and only then appreciate what the social interaction really meant. I developed a great distrust of people because in my viewpoint folks who you thought you were friendly with would so often turn on you and attack you for no reason. Now I realise I probably offended them without realising it. Also made you easy prey for bullies who could string you along without you realising it forever. I think one of the appeals of Buffy (and Glee) is that it was about a group of outsiders who looked out for one another but that is (literally) a fantasy, in my experience no one ever helped you, they would often sympathise with the attackers because they simply couldn't relate. .   

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, secnarf said:

Sorry, I didn't mean that sentence to be evidence that he is not on the spectrum. I meant that sentence as the reason that I believe he knew his actions were wrong and harmful.

The earlier part of my post was an attempt to convey my belief that 1) we have no reason to think JW is on the spectrum and 2) even if he was, that doesn't explain away his (alleged) actions. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I disagree, he exhibits many of the classic signs and it does explain everything. I always think of Anya in The Body asking questions which are wholly inappropriate but she just can't fathom why and no one will explain it to her. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Joss gave CC a great ending, comparable to Michael O'Hare in B5

Joss wrote Cordelia off the show by having her fall into a coma, wake up for an episode which was to originally have Buffy appear in, not her, then die off-screen (after reportedly telling CC her character would not have been killed off).

JMS wrote Michael O'Hare's character off the show by having his character do important stuff off-screen which affected the present narrative of the show, then brought him back for a send-off where he goes back in time, becomes an important historical war hero who helps save the galaxy while also becoming a benign leader and figurehead for an alien race.

Not sure one could argue that Cordelia had the better ending.

Quote

who was actually suffering mental illness which had him stalking one of the makeup girls?

If nothing else, that incident showed how much of an ass Joss is by comparison, as JMS worked as much as he could with O'Hare, who as you said, had REAL mental problems, to keep him around as much as possible before both JMS and O'Hare came to an amicable conclusion that keeping O'Hare would be detrimental to the show long term. JMS had to alter many of the plans he had for the show, which had only completed it's first year, to deal with O'Hare's absence.

Meanwhile, Joss decided to punish an actress for getting pregnant and eventually firing her.

Quote

Now you see that drives me up the WALL! He makes a joke, she laughs and he thinks they're fine. Decades later she now takes offence at it.

Yes, it's possible when she later finds out the joke is not a joke at all, but possible symptoms of a misogynistic attitude.

Quote

Possibly but again, everyone has been singing his praises for years, working with him on other shows and attending the anniversaries with him and now this guy on Justice League whinges and suddenly CC resurrects her sorepoint from nearly 20 years ago and everyone is suddenly saying the reverse.

Others have pointed out the fallacy of this statement, but again, there are many reasons for that which others have spelt out far more eloquently than I can.

Quote

The Captain of the ship, sergeant of the platoon etc does sometimes need to assert their authority

Which one does not do by creating a toxic work environment among their subordinates.

Quote

I appreciate CC been sore about this for years but she should let it drop frankly. And WHO CARES if it was a 'minority' actor?

Why does she need to drop something that was traumatic to her, something which still affects her to this day? Not everyone can deal with trauma by just getting over it.

Also, many people care if it is a 'minority' actor, because as we have discussed before, they are at as much of a disadvantage as non-minority women when it comes to having their views dismissed or being labeled as "difficult to work with" when they try to assert their rights. And for those same reasons they can be seen as an easy victim for people who like to abuse their power.

Quote

And again, Joss did cast Amber at a time when everyone was Ally McBeal thin. 

As others have pointed out, he fought against her casting, it was thanks to Marti Noxon who fought for her to be cast in the role.

Quote

DB has had huge success post Joss and never said anything?

Many of the people who are speaking now haven't said anything previously as well. But now they are. Sometimes it takes one person to get the ball rolling.

Also, DB remaining silent isn't the best argument to use to try and discredit what all of the others have said.

Quote

Weinstein was a womaniser who exploited the casting couch but then arguably so did the women he slept with

I would say it isn't arguable. At all.

Also, Weinstein wasn't a womaniser, he is a straight up rapist.

Quote

And yes, it is forgivable, the joke was it was evident she wasn't fat because she was pregnant, that was he said was evidently ridiculous.

Calling multiple pregnant woman fat and asking one woman who you knew had suffered previous miscarriages if she wanted to keep the baby isn't a sign of missed or misreading social cues or being socially awkward, it's a sign of being a malicious asshole.

Quote

he exhibits many of the classic signs and it does explain everything.

The only signs he exhibits is of being a misogynistic egotistical asshole who creates toxic work environments and pits his actors against one another, while trying to hide behind a shield of brand feminism.

Quote

I always think of Anya in The Body asking questions which are wholly inappropriate but she just can't fathom why and no one will explain it to her. 

Anya is a fictional character who spent centuries as a demon whose main interactions with humans was to grant revenge wishes, which explains why she was socially inappropriate.

Joss is a real life asshole, who isn't a literal demon but with each revelation sounds like more and more of a figurative one.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Hiyo

[lembergwatcher]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:14 AM, General Days said:

I do not agree with this. If Michelle Trachtenberg was sexually abused (or harassed) on that set, she owes no one anything.

She owes no one anything, that's true. Just like we are not obliged to believe such accusations 100% purely on account of Michelle saying so. Besides, using not owing anything to anyone as an argument will hardly work with judges and jury in case Whedon decides to sue MT for defamation.

Being a tyrannical asshole is one thing. But being sexual predator is something completely different. If that's the case, what Whedon did is a criminal offence and he should be prosecuted. The thing is prosecuting any person demands some solid evidence. Accusations alone are not enough to bring anyone to justice. 

Yes, such experience is very traumatizing. But you can't obtain justice (especially when it comes to such serious accusations) by innuendos.