S06.E10: START

[EtheltoTillie]

14 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I thought Paige’s reaction was primarily human. Not American. Definite not selfish- she wasn’t talking about herself.

 I think it is normal when you’re given life altering news for your mind to just spin in a million directions- from the huge- we’re going to RUSSIA and leaving without Henry and dad can’t talk to him again - to the comparatively small- Henry’s college education funding. 

Renember when Elizabeth and Philip were worried about catching the virus and they talked about the kids schoolwork? William thought they were nuts. It was so....unimportant big picture wise. 

Yes, I actually agree.  I was thinking it was in retrospect an indicator to the audience that she would stay in the U.S. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by GussieK

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm not so sure that Stan would tell Paige to cut a deal, because, that would mean she would have to reveal ALL, (probably under polygraph) that she knows and that would include the garage incident.  He might tell her to get a very good lawyer and pray for the best. 

[Misstify]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

But, it was a little unrealistic that E would not have had a lot of discussion with Paige about what happens IF....she didn't have a bag ready, just in case.  Certainly, Paige would have wondered what the plan was, if they got detected.  It really fell flat for me, that they couldn't call Paige and give her a topsy turvy code message, she would know what it means, prepare and follow the plan.  Her standing there being so ill prepared, like the idea never occurred to her just seemed like more of the same to me. 

Absolutely.  I can't believe they had no prearranged plan, let alone a code phrase, set up with Paige.   I mean, we all know her training has been poor, with Elizabeth holding back tons of stuff, so it fits.  But I was amazed nonetheless.

[Umbelina]

I believe it.

Paige freaks out easily, and Elizabeth didn't tell her much of anything real.  Not about murders, not about honeytrapping, and Paige had already thrown a fit about the idea of Russia before.  I don't think Elizabeth would bring up "OK, so if we're blown and off to Russia, here's the code word!" to Paige.  At all.

[JZL]

I apologize for skipping ahead a few pages' worth of comments . . .

1.  Stan didn't betray his country.  He had no intention of letting them go until he realized he did care about preventing the KGB coup (which actually was attempted in real-life in the early 90's).  His previous conversation with Oleg in the holding cell confirmed what the Jenningses were saying.

2.  Paige remains in the USA . . . is there going to be a spin-off?  Will we get to see Renee infiltrate the FBI and Paige in the State Department?  Stay tuned. 

[DrumJunkie]

Two things we know wrt to Paiges' value to the FBI. 

1. She is the daughter of two KGB illegals.

2. She has been shown to not remember details well.

So under questioning, her limited exposure to the darker parts of the trade are going to be limited to methods they already know or will find out, but actionable intelligence will be limited to one garage, a few cars, an empty safehouse, and confirmation of the few ops she was a lookout for. Beyond that, I'm not sure what additional value there is and I don't expect it would take much questioning to get that.

I don't know what charges they would bring that would stick, but more importantly what value would there be in prosecution?

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Sadly, there's a good chance you are right. Asshole parents often accomplish the neat trick of having the victimized children blame themselves for Mom and Dad's assholery.

I don't think Henry would blame himself that way by thinking he was a jerk. He would just regret he didn't talk more. Just like he would at thanksgiving.  It's like when someone dies. Regret doesn't have to be about a mindfuck really. His personality just did mean he was more independent. 

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

Paige was a lookout, but she was also a superfluous lookout. She was never an asset to the Directorate, her presence seemed to always be a burden. A third wheel trainee shadowing Marilyn. 

No lookout is superfluous just because there was nothing to see. She knew she was helping with a break in. If I were Paige I'd hope to deny any work at all.

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

 But that was in large part Elizabeth’s doing. The training of Paige was inconsistent at best.  If anything that was the one thing I find lacking about the show.  No one ever bothered to train Paige and yet expect her to both do her own research and yet not be obvious about her interest.   

Not sure I'm clear on what was Elizabeth's doing here. She was obviously trained in some way off screen because she was working but she was doing the same job as Marilyn on those jobs and doing it much the same way.There were a lot of problems with her training but she wasn't responsible for the jobs she was given to do and it wasn't up to her to do independent research for her training. I know people think she should have done that as a person but no trainees that we've seen are told to do that. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

 

It was practical.  Paige IS an American.  She didn't ask "Who will pay my rent or get me that cute new sports car I want?"  She thought about Henry's college...his future.

 They couldn't because they were ordered to never be Nadezda and Mikail, or to share any parts of their "former" selves with one another.  They met as Elizabeth from Chicago and Philip from who knows where, 

 

Pittsburgh! That's where he's allegedly from.

I thought Paige's question totally made sense. I think I might have thought it too. 

I agree about Elizabeth.  I'd also add that I think she she was very resistant to the idea of the man she was assigned being her real husband. He was another man who'd been forced on her. She was able to eventually trust maybe in part because for years he'd never acted entitled to her (the one moment in the pilot plays weirdly in retrospect) but I think him being her assigned husband made her even more hostile to a relationship with him. 

So it's particularly sweet she's now openly dreaming about meeting him freely and choosing him. I do wonder what that stiry was with the first man Gabriel daid she rejected if it was true.

[Erin9]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Uh, it would have been interesting to know why she rejected the other guys, but in all honesty, it just that Phillip was in love with her almost on first sight and she was not into him at all until many years later. E knows that she can trust Phillip and that is very important. I am one of the few that probably do not see them staying married in Russia.  P always loved her and she always needed him. If they survive and once that need goes away, I do not see her staying with him (controversial since so many people feel like their love is amazing). Even in her dream, she thought of Gregory and not him. It would be interesting if he ended up married to Martha.

Elizabeth’s dream was about her children and her feelings for them. She recalled her conversation with him about not wanting children- at the very moment she knew she’d lost both of them. She was hit by what she’d lost and hadn’t fully appreciated for so long.  (Though she did love them.)  It wasn’t about Philip or Gregory. 

I can see Elizabeth asking Philip about Henry. I imagine she regrets not trying harder to connect with him. Both of her phone calls to him show profound sadness and regret imo. Philip at least had a bond with both of the kids, tried to have a relationship with them over the years. 

Philip wasn’t in love with Martha. Nothing there. And she knows that now too.,

As I said earlier- Elizabeth getting the real rings, giving him the real ring, talking about how she thinks they were basically destined to meet and finally talking about them adjusting together said everything about her feelings for Philip. She dumped Gregory for Philip when she and Philip became real. 

[Umbelina]

20 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

Two things we know wrt to Paiges' value to the FBI. 

1. She is the daughter of two KGB illegals.

2. She has been shown to not remember details well.

So under questioning, her limited exposure to the darker parts of the trade are going to be limited to methods they already know or will find out, but actionable intelligence will be limited to one garage, a few cars, an empty safehouse, and confirmation of the few ops she was a lookout for. Beyond that, I'm not sure what additional value there is and I don't expect it would take much questioning to get that.

I don't know what charges they would bring that would stick, but more importantly what value would there be in prosecution?

Right now the FBI is in the process of rounding up illegals.  They are going on two things.  They operate out of garages.  They pay their electricity bills months in advance.  That's it.  That's all they've got, yet it lead them to the priest and Philip.

Paige knows a great deal more than that.  I detailed it just a few posts up.  ALL of Paige's information, no matter how small will help them.  The biggest thing?  Claudia.  Also, details about the dead body they are wasting a lot of man hours on, Marilyn.  Wrapping up the investigation on the General, and the sailor, and the warehouse as well.  Every little thing Paige knows, from the types of cameras they use, to dead drops, to following techniques they use?  All of it is valuable to the FBI, ALL of it will help them round up other illegals.  Tracking down details about the Safe House Paige knows about, that alone will give them huge clues about others.  Specifics about the cars Paige knows about?  MORE clues.  Etc.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Uh, it would have been interesting to know why she rejected the other guys, but in all honesty, it just that Phillip was in love with her almost on first sight and she was not into him at all until many years later. E knows that she can trust Phillip and that is very important. I am one of the few that probably do not see them staying married in Russia.  P always loved her and she always needed him. If they survive and once that need goes away, I do not see her staying with him (controversial since so many people feel like their love is amazing). Even in her dream, she thought of Gregory and not him. It would be interesting if he ended up married to Martha.

But Elizabeth didn't need Philip until she fell in love with him at which point she needed him because of that. Gregory's appearance in the dream actually puts distance between him and Elizabeth imo. She connects him with her saying something callous about her children and then he disappears. So she was connecting him with a version of herself that wasn't really her.

Gregory made a while thing to Philip about how Elizabeth would sacrifice her family so she didn't care about them like the Cause. That dream was not about loving Gregory. 

Philip never loved or wanted to be with Martha so that's not even as issue. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Avaleigh]

I've read through the first fifteen pages of this thread so far but can't remember if this has already been mentioned by others. My apologies if I'm rehashing.

I keep thinking about Philip's last words to Henry. He specifically tells Henry to be himself. Philip has spent a huge part of his life not being himself. He was always being somebody else even when he'd more or less retired. He doesn't want Henry to be like him. Not only that but Elizabeth concurs with everything that Philip says to Henry. I thought that was huge for her especially when she's spent these past three years trying to turn Paige into her mini me. Neither of them wants Henry to be the way they are or to live that sort of life. 

When Philip explained to Paige that there was no place for Henry where they were going, I feel like that went a long way to influencing Paige to stay. The same thing could easily be said about her. If there's no place for Henry, why would it be so different for Paige? All the reasons they gave for why Henry should stay could all be applied to Paige. She's in a great school, she was presumably doing well there (so well that they thought she was on the track for getting a top tier job one day), she's meeting people she genuinely likes and seems to finally be getting friends, etc. Why throw it away if she still has the opportunity to continue doing what she was doing minus the spying?

As for the finale in general, I thought it was a winner. 

Are there things that I wish they'd addressed and stories that I wish they handled differently. Yes, absolutely. I'm with Umbelina when it comes to being hugely frustrated with season 5 especially in terms of how it relates to this season. That being said, I really did enjoy this finale and feel that it mostly delivered. 

I'm still thinking about it two days later and am still gutted by the separations even though this is what I wanted for all ofthe characters involved. My stomach genuinely lurched when I realized that Paige wasn't on the train. The fact that a character I've perceived as being weak for so long ended up showing how strong she can be was a terrific moment. She showed strength, wisdom, character and independence in that moment and I absolutely loved it. 

I really like the choice the writers made by having them choose to leave one child and having one child choose to leave them. Both moments were a gut punch but for different reasons. 

Last observation. When Stan tells Henry about his parents, I have to assume that Stan also told Henry that Paige knew for years and seemed to be leaving with them. I know a lot of people think that Paige and Henry will continue to have a reasonably healthy sibling relationship but I'm not sure. I can see Henry being extremely angry with her. Not only that but since he can't communicate with his parents I can easily see him lashing out at her if she tries to reach out to him because she'll be the only one that he can release his anger on. 

This show was special. I'm really going to miss it. 

[numbnut]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

14 hours ago, numbnut said:

Poor Henry. If he's not already scarred for life, he will be when his new surrogate dad murders his new surrogate mom for being a spy.

I don't think Henry's ever going to care about Renee. He's not getting new parents. He's already on his own.  Stan is there to be a support and a protector of him as a young man. He was raised by Philip and Elizabeth and they made him who he is. Elizabeth was right when she said Henry was doing everything Philip wanted because what he wanted was for him to be himself. 

I was half-joking, but Henry isn't a mature adult just yet -- if he sees Stan as his only hands-on family from this point forward (with Stan and Renee providing a home when Henry's not in school), he would be shook if Renee turned out to be another spy, especially after the shock of being abandoned by his spy parents. He doesn't need to care about Renee for it to affect him. He would identify with Stan's pain because he cares for him and it hits close to home.

Edited June 1, 2018 by numbnut

[jjj]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I asked it earlier in the week and JJJ said that the finale was the START about the treaty, but, that it also had another meaning of A new start. (New beginning)  I was hoping she was right, because, START seems to not fit with the word DEAD.  And I didn't want that to be the case. lol 

Yes, when the question was asked here, it seemed that not everyone was aware of START (the arms deal), because some posters wanted to spell the episode title in all caps like the treaty, and others thought it was "Start" -- and I just said I thought it probably would end up having both meanings, but could guess at who was having a new "start".  Turns out mostly Philip and Elizabeth had the new start.  Interestingly, Ronald Reagan also had a policy in the early 1980s called "Fresh Start" -- about Middle East peace.  I mention this only because it was from the same era!  Here is a link from 1982:  https://www.nytimes.com/1982/09/05/weekinreview/reagan-s-fresh-start-is-begin-s-anathema.html

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

But, it was a little unrealistic that E would not have had a lot of discussion with Paige about what happens IF....she didn't have a bag ready, just in case.  Certainly, Paige would have wondered what the plan was, if they got detected.  It really fell flat for me, that they couldn't call Paige and give her a topsy turvy code message, she would know what it means, prepare and follow the plan.  Her standing there being so ill prepared, like the idea never occurred to her just seemed like more of the same to me. 

Absolutely agree -- they were always updating their own escape plan, and I could not imagine they had not had ANY discussion of what to do with Paige and Henry. 

[Pickles]

Paige and Henry could go to Russia and visit their parents in the future. Would P and E ever be able to return to the US without being arrested? 

[jjj]

12 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Paige and Henry could go to Russia and visit their parents in the future. Would P and E ever be able to return to the US without being arrested? 

I'm going out on a limb here and saying "no" to any visit of the USA, where they would be arrested on suspicion of espionage and probably murder, etc., and also probably not to any country from which they could be extradited to the USA. 

As many posters here have said, the bigger question is whether Henry and Paige would want to visit them -- my guess is that Paige would be much more likely to want to visit them in Russian, when that becomes possible.

Who will pay her rent and tuition now?  I was surprised that Philip was willing to cut back on Henry's tuition, but still subsidize Paige's apartment; maybe she had a scholarship at GW for tuition.  If it can be proved that at least some of the equity in the house came from the travel agency, would the children be able to share in the profit from its sale?  I hope they both have good lawyers; Henry does not need a criminal defense, but he will have a host of legal issues, and will also need a court-appointed guardian.  (Maybe Stan, but opinions here vary for good reasons.) 

Edited June 1, 2018 by jjj

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

That's all they've got, yet it lead them to the priest and Philip.

I honestly don't remember -- was that what led them to the priest? Or was it the other tattletale priest? Why did they end up talking to the older priest? He led them to the other priest, who inadvertently brought them to Philip.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

I keep thinking about Philip's last words to Henry. He specifically tells Henry to be himself. Philip has spent a huge part of his life not being himself. He was always being somebody else even when he'd more or less retired. He doesn't want Henry to be like him. Not only that but Elizabeth concurs with everything that Philip says to Henry. I thought that was huge for her especially when she's spent these past three years trying to turn Paige into her mini me. Neither of them wants Henry to be the way they are or to live that sort of life. 

I wish I could remember what episode it was - it was back in season 2 or 3, when Philip and Elizabeth talk about telling Paige the truth. And Philip says something like "It would destroy her" and Elizabeth says"To be like us?", visibly hurt by that idea. 

There's always been this idea expressed by Gabriel, Claudia, and Elizabeth of "telling Paige who she is," by which they mean telling her that she is Russian and the daughter of dedicated Soviet spies and she herself will be one. But that has never made sense because first of all, spying isn't a hereditary skill; secondly, she is American even if her parents are Russian; and third, as an American, she expects to discover and become who she is without someone telling her. She says to them "I know you control what I do until I'm 18 but you can't control who I am. I'm me." 

I don't think Elizabeth ever really understood that. Philip did. 

So to hear Elizabeth saying that she agrees with Philip telling Henry to be himself - that is huge. It is a huge change from where she was five or six years ago. 

IMO she still hadn't reached that conclusion with Paige. She told her that she needed to commit to this job for life, but Paige just said yes. She never told Paige - be yourself and it will be good enough for me and I will still be your mother and love you. She wasn't prepared to do that yet. Paige forced it upon them by leaving them. I wonder if Philip had said the same things to Paige that he said to Henry, whether Elizabeth would have said "I agree with your father". IDK. 

[Dev F]

16 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I honestly don't remember -- was that what led them to the priest? Or was it the other tattletale priest? Why did they end up talking to the older priest? He led them to the other priest, who inadvertently brought them to Philip.

They surveilled Harvest meeting with a Russian Orthodox priest in Chicago, which prompted them to investigate the priests in Chicago. Father Victor was the one who first aroused their suspicions, since he was being promoted over more experienced priests and was close with the metropolitan (sort of like the local archbishop, I think), and the CIA told them this meant he had KGB connections. But it turned out Victor was just super devout, which is why he ratted out the priest who actually did have KGB connections.

Interestingly, this season wasn't the first time we'd heard about Father Victor and his rivalry with Father Andrei. Andrei had his own rant about Victor in his first meeting with Philip:

 "Father Victor was out again last Tuesday and Wednesday, very late. He came back both times drunk. I know he's been seeing the Frenchman. . . . His Eminence the Metropolitan is listening to Father Victor more and more. I've seen them meeting in private. I know what you'll think. That I'm looking out for myself, my position. That I'm jealous. I'm not. I'm telling you what's going on so you can protect yourselves."

[MJ Frog]

4 minutes ago, Dev F said:

They surveilled Harvest meeting with a Russian Orthodox priest in Chicago, which prompted them to investigate the priests in Chicago. Father Victor was the one who first aroused their suspicions, since he was being promoted over more experienced priests and was close with the metropolitan (sort of like the local archbishop, I think), and the CIA told them this meant he had KGB connections. But it turned out Victor was just super devout, which is why he ratted out the priest who actually did have KGB connections.

Ah, thank you! So Harvest was their indirect downfall, in a couple of different ways.

[anonymiss]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Sadly, there's a good chance you are right. Asshole parents often accomplish the neat trick of having the victimized children blame themselves for Mom and Dad's assholery.

Asshole parents do that, but I don't see any evidence that P&E are asshole parents (just in a highly compromising profession but doing the best they can with it). Paige certainly doesn't blame herself for anything and I think as Henry grows up (he's already mature for his age) he will be as well adjusted as one can be given his circumstances, and will realize his parents wanted to salvage whatever they could of his childhood so he could still have a bright future.

[AllyB]

I've got to say this episode really didn't work too well for me. The whole bittersweet ending is spoiled by our knowledge of the future. It's December '87. 3 years from now Philip and Elizabeth could be living in a nice house in greater London with their kids coming to visit them a few times a year. In fact as angry as Henry was when he first found out, Paige staying behind actually helped him come to terms with it all as she was able to answer many of his questions. Henry and his parents have a tense relationship when they are first able to make contact but by now they are doting grandparents to Henry's teenagers who often summer in Europe. Oleg will be released from prison and he'll join his family who have gone to live in New Zealand just like Costa Ronin's own family. Stan will figure out that Renee is indeed a spy when he leaves some sort of trap for her. That is awful for him but Matthew takes pity on him and their relationship improves. 23 months from the finale when the Berlin Wall comes down, Stan will feel pretty good knowing that his decision to let the Jennings go 'saved the world.' 

Having most of the shocking and sad moments of the episode centre around separation on either side of the Iron Curtain, means little when it's December 87 and we know the separation is very temporary.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

As I said earlier- Elizabeth getting the real rings, giving him the real ring, talking about how she thinks they were basically destined to meet and finally talking about them adjusting together said everything about her feelings for Philip. She dumped Gregory for Philip when she and Philip became real. 

It actually just struck me how this dream basically lays the spectre of Gregory to rest. He's still an important person in Elizabeth's life but he's not in the dream as a romantic rival, but as a symbol of a certain time in Elizabeth's life. She's always going to associate him with that time and as an escape from the family she didn't want to have. In that dream he's not "not Philip" or "the person she loved instead of Philip" he's the person to whom Elizabeth would have said "I don't want a kid anyway."

She did choose Philip over Gregory before his death and while she allowed Gregory to think she'd come back to him in the end, that was a compassionate lie (even though she wasn't back with Philip yet). Gregory, like Paige, didn't really love her country.

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I keep thinking about Philip's last words to Henry. He specifically tells Henry to be himself. Philip has spent a huge part of his life not being himself. He was always being somebody else even when he'd more or less retired. He doesn't want Henry to be like him. Not only that but Elizabeth concurs with everything that Philip says to Henry. I thought that was huge for her especially when she's spent these past three years trying to turn Paige into her mini me. Neither of them wants Henry to be the way they are or to live that sort of life. 

When Philip explained to Paige that there was no place for Henry where they were going, I feel like that went a long way to influencing Paige to stay. The same thing could easily be said about her. If there's no place for Henry, why would it be so different for Paige? All the reasons they gave for why Henry should stay could all be applied to Paige. She's in a great school, she was presumably doing well there (so well that they thought she was on the track for getting a top tier job one day), she's meeting people she genuinely likes and seems to finally be getting friends, etc. Why throw it away if she still has the opportunity to continue doing what she was doing minus the spying?

Totally agree. And Philip did tell Paige exactly the same thing after her baptism, that he was proud of her for going to the church even though they didn't like it. He said, "You can always do that, you know. Be yourself." She thought he was talking about saying no to drugs. In many little ways over the years he's tried to tell her the same thing, that she should trust herself to figure things out. Like when she was upset about Pastor Tim's diary and he said PT didn't *know* her, that she didn't have to be defined by anything he thought. That she didn't have to be defined by who she was as a child.

Paige completely rejected that view in season 5 and that's how we got her in S6 completely turning herself into Elizabeth, not thinking clearly (Philip once said she could outthink anyone), not questioning what she was doing. By the end both parents were so used to her following after them they of course took her with them. They always had to take care of her.

But I think Paige was totally listening to what Philip was saying about Henry and applying it to herself. How sad was it that Henry, at almost 17, had a life in the US and she didn't? But she'd done that to herself. In the end she listened to what Philip was saying. I think she would have told her parents this if she had a chance, but she probably didn't think it through clearly until she was sitting by herself on the train. They would have let her go. Philip would have been happy for her, while also devastated and Elizabeth would have respected her for it.

 

Quote

Last observation. When Stan tells Henry about his parents, I have to assume that Stan also told Henry that Paige knew for years and seemed to be leaving with them. I know a lot of people think that Paige and Henry will continue to have a reasonably healthy sibling relationship but I'm not sure. I can see Henry being extremely angry with her. Not only that but since he can't communicate with his parents I can easily see him lashing out at her if she tries to reach out to him because she'll be the only one that he can release his anger on. 

This show was special. I'm really going to miss it. 

The thing with Henry and Paige now, imo, is that it really isn't a matter of closeness. They are the only two people sharing this experience and Paige has lots of info he doesn't have. So I think he'd be angry, but also need to talk to her. Having been angry herself she'd be able to relate to that. It's true that this might always be a wall between them that Henry will never truly get over--another example of what happens when you keep a secret. But knowing Paige if he accused her of that she'd also be able to defend it. Elizabeth said it was "up to Henry" when they told him and it was pretty clear why that moment came with Paige and not him.

2 hours ago, numbnut said:

I was half-joking, but Henry isn't a mature adult just yet -- if he sees Stan as his only hands-on family from this point forward (with Stan and Renee providing a home when Henry's not in school), he would be shook if Renee turned out to be another spy, especially after the shock of being abandoned by his spy parents. He doesn't need to care about Renee for it to affect him. He would identify with Stan's pain because he cares for him and it hits close to home.

 

I get what you mean, though we now know Paige is actually there and even if she winds up in jail she probably wouldn't be there before he was 18--that's a little over a year away. But regardless I think they intentionally established that Henry has his living arrangements mostly set until college--he's got school for this year and next year and for the summer he's in West Virginia making the money for his tuition. Which, frankly, he will probably prefer over living in the house across the street where he can stare at his own empty house. I wouldn't be surprised if Henry preferred to stay at school even over the Christmas break (even if he got visits).

He would probably be shook to find yet another spy hiding in their lives but he doesn't have much personal connection to Renee and I don't think he'd be creating much of one before college, myself. He'd probably be more concerned for Stan though!

I was thinking about Henry's reaction to his parents' separation and back then his reaction was withdrawal. For all Elizabeth says Philip "likes to talk" he and Henry are similar in that they're generally more talkative when they're happy. When sad they often sit alone. Of course I can't say how Henry will be reacting to this huge news but I wouldn't be surprised if he preferred to stay at school (and away for the summer) as much as possible and just start a new life rather than talking out everything with Stan who has his own complicated feelings about Henry's father's betrayal.

I guess I just automatically find anything that sounds like "Luckily, Henry has a spare father!" to ring false. Not that you were saying that, I understand. I'm just on the far end of the spectrum the other way. Even on the show characters are telling Stan he has to "take care of" the one character who's been taking care of himself so much that his parents see it's better to leave him where he is. Stan can offer Henry important support, of course, of a type that nobody else can, but I don't think Henry will regress to wanting a guardian instead of the friend Stan's always been. In fact, this situation seems to make them more like equals than ever. I think it's with Paige that he has more of a chance of working out his feelings as a child losing and being betrayed by his parents. She's the one that can salvage his memories.

Edited June 2, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Anela]

I am only just commenting, because I've been sick almost two weeks. Ugh. 

I liked it. I don't think there is any good way to just end a long-running series, because people are going to miss it (unless it's TWD, where they have seriously run things into the ground). The confrontation was amazing. I knew he would let them go!! I thought he might before, and then I read how shocked Stan was, and that Rhys/Philip cried when he read the script. The only shocking thing I could think of, would be his letting them go, or killing one of them in cold blood, the way he did the other Russian. 

I expected Paige to either be caught, or to get off the train, but I didn't recognize her on the platform. I thought she was a guy, for some reason. I had to rewind, to see her again. I didn't blame her for getting off, rather than facing Russia. She was really and truly hit with reality, so I didn't blame her for going for the vodka, either. I didn't assume that she would live happily ever after. I thought she looked terrified and resigned to something really difficult. 

I think Elizabeth's dream showed that she'd only had her children (or the first one), because she was told to, but that she ended up really loving them. 

After they put on the real wedding rings, I thought of @hellmouse and again when Paige got off the train. She got what she wanted for them. :) 

[Cardie]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That was an odd choice, to have Elizabeth suddenly go on a season long killing spree, knowing they would have this kind of ending.

The only thing I can think of was their desire to show that Elizabeth was going to become such a monster that she would completely repel Philip and die in the field--only to have her saved by Erica and her insistence that Elizabeth take a hard look at who she is.  The redemption and escape are thus more impressive than if she had been behaving the way he usually does. But I would agree that they overdid it, even though the killings of  the general and the various security and FBI folks were self-defense because the missions went South and she didn't want to kill Sofia. The one egregious killing was of the lecherous sailor.

Quote

Someone else can do that math here,

She killed ten people this season, plus the euthanasia of Erica.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Cardie

[sistermagpie]

I just thought of another parallel in this episode. When Paige is horrified at her parents thinking of leaving Henry they say they love him and Paige says, "Do you?" because of what they're thinking of doing.

It's a callback to Elizabeth, having been told that her mother said she loved her before she died, saying, "Did she?" Which could mean either "Did she say that really?" or "Did she love me, really?"

And it was for the same reason--her mother sent her way. Paige then asked if Elizabeth would ever do that to her. So here she was asking for Henry.

Though in this case things were reversed. Henry was being left behind because his parents did love him. And Paige leaving her parents wasn't a rejection of them either.

[Haleth]

I am so mad Stan let them go.

I am so mad Stan didn't mention Martha.

I am so mad Oleg was left to rot in prison. (Hopefully his dad can bring him home.)

At least Paige got slapped with the reality that playing spy isn't a big adventure.  I only wish she had learned that her parents were ruthless murderers.  All those deaths Stan mentioned?  Yeah, them.

[scartact]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

I wish I could remember what episode it was - it was back in season 2 or 3, when Philip and Elizabeth talk about telling Paige the truth. And Philip says something like "It would destroy her" and Elizabeth says"To be like us?", visibly hurt by that idea. 

There's always been this idea expressed by Gabriel, Claudia, and Elizabeth of "telling Paige who she is," by which they mean telling her that she is Russian and the daughter of dedicated Soviet spies and she herself will be one. But that has never made sense because first of all, spying isn't a hereditary skill; secondly, she is American even if her parents are Russian; and third, as an American, she expects to discover and become who she is without someone telling her. She says to them "I know you control what I do until I'm 18 but you can't control who I am. I'm me." 

I don't think Elizabeth ever really understood that. Philip did. 

So to hear Elizabeth saying that she agrees with Philip telling Henry to be himself - that is huge. It is a huge change from where she was five or six years ago. 

IMO she still hadn't reached that conclusion with Paige. She told her that she needed to commit to this job for life, but Paige just said yes. She never told Paige - be yourself and it will be good enough for me and I will still be your mother and love you. She wasn't prepared to do that yet. Paige forced it upon them by leaving them. I wonder if Philip had said the same things to Paige that he said to Henry, whether Elizabeth would have said "I agree with your father". IDK. 

I think that episode was the season 2 finale? Erm, or maybe you're right and it's early season 3. They had so many "What do we do about Paige" conversations at that time period, it's a blur! But yes, after all that and in hindsight, I wonder if Elizabeth will realize she more or less made a mistake in allowing Paige to spy. I think the self-defense stuff seemed fine, but as it evolved into Paige doing tradecraft and basically showing the limitations of Paige's skills, that was rough.

But I also guess this is where I think back to the context of Philip and Elizabeth also being immigrant parents, and perhaps it's through this lens that we might be able to understand or parse even a little bit of what's going on in that sense. While the immigrant narrative wasn't super prominent, to me it is an underlying theme and parallel, and so I think the argument of whether or not Paige is solely "American" or "Russian" is a little bit iffy; in some ways she's both because Russia is in her blood, but in a sense she's also a child of Diaspora (more or less) and grew up American, she wouldn't necessarily hold those kinds of feelings of homeland that Philip and Elizabeth have, though she does try so that she can locate some sense of history that was never quite afforded to her as a child. I mean, that makes me wonder how much a a family history they even really gave Paige and Henry when they were much younger. Did they notice the lack of aunts and uncles, grandparents and cousins?

Philip and Elizabeth's differences in terms of assimilation are also significant in that sense; Elizabeth wants to transfer that nationalist pride in the USSR to Paige, to somehow imply the Cause is also in her blood, but Philip, who assimilated way more than Elizabeth, recognizes that's not necessarily going to happen. I've always wanted to do a close read of the show as an immigrant narrative; it isn't the dominant narrative of the show, but I think it a narrative strand that undergirds some of the context the family exists in, particularly in the Philip/Elizabeth/Paige context.

When I read Philip and Elizabeth's parenting of Paige through that immigrant perspective lens, it's sort of heartbreaking. Rhys said in an interview with Todd VanDerWerff that in the final scene, he absolutely believes Philip feels he's failed his children. I wonder if Elizabeth does too?

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, Misstify said:

Absolutely.  I can't believe they had no prearranged plan, let alone a code phrase, set up with Paige.   I mean, we all know her training has been poor, with Elizabeth holding back tons of stuff, so it fits.  But I was amazed nonetheless.

Just as Elizabeth was vague and abstract about the sex and murder field work required, she couldn't bring herself to make concrete to Paige that there was always the imminent chance of having to bug out to the USSR. Neither parent ever came clean about what being all in as a KGB agent entailed. They still hoarded too many of their secrets to shield their daughter.

[Umbelina]

24 minutes ago, Cardie said:

The only thing I can think of was their desire to show that Elizabeth was going to become such a monster that she would completely repel Philip and die in the field--only to have her saved by Erica and her insistence that Elizabeth take a hard look at who she is.  The redemption and escape are thus more impressive than if she had been behaving the way he usually does. But I would agree that they overdid it, even though the killings of  the general and the various security and FBI folks were self-defense because the missions went South and she didn't want to kill Sofia. The one egregious killing was of the lecherous sailor.

She killed ten people this season, plus the euthanasia of Erica.

Thanks.  She only killed 16 in seasons 1-5. 

So, 10 this year, and an average of 3 each other season.

[SusanSunflower]

Similarly, apparently concealed from Paige (and largely from us) were the support personnel who spelled out the details of the missions they were to carry out.  Wrt "Jackson",  someone knew he was the "one" who would have the access and clearance (and invisibility) to be useful to Elizabeth (who was not scouting the intern lists and the conference scheduled or Jackson's details to know that he would be at that movie, and that the conference to be taped would be in that room (just for a start) .... similar background "field work" attached to all the various honey-pot schemes ... identifying the mark and providing the logistical details .to make the "meet" seem natural and unforced.  

I think the writers were incredibly "artful" and deliberate in keeping Paige utterly "unknowing" wrt how sausage is made.... and while this could have been attributed to Elizabeth's "mama lion" it's not really plausible that Paige would be so shielded.  I grew very weary trying to remember who knew what and from what source with what confidence .... particularly wrt Paige's legal culpability ... and even her level of knowleged and understanding wrt the complicity in crimes she may (or may not) know were committed by  her mother .... similarly,  Philip might know (because E told him) that she carried out the Teacup hit ... but he might not know the brutality of those murders.  Mission accomplished, tasks crossed off list. 

After Paige and Pastor Tim, I can see it being deemed reasonable to teach Paige skills without divulging the infrastructure that made P&E's missions possible. 

I've wondered about the accrued small-talk knowledge one gains over years about co-workers and neighbors -- political and religious background (be they ever so vague).   Phillip's vietnam military record.  Elizabeth's home town.  We don't know even thumbnail of their official cover biography, but yes, Paige and Henry would "wonder" about where "their people" were from (how many generations in the USA, from where, why immigrated ... these are bread and butter topics of conversation in Elementary School ... as well as literally innocent small talk amongst neighbors, coworkers and some acquaintances  ...  being "too private" can become a flag or a challenge for a snoopy neighbor ... or result in extremely awkward pauses as one member of a crowd balks at sharing the story of "their first kiss" or "how we met" ... my parents were both only children ... I remember being asked about cousins and uncles and aunts who were integral parts of my peers' lives.

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, scartact said:

I mean, that makes me wonder how much a a family history they even really gave Paige and Henry when they were much younger. Did they notice the lack of aunts and uncles, grandparents and cousins?

Paige certainly did. It was one of the reasons she thought they were sketchy.

Yet she didn't actually like meeting her grandmother too much. I think she was just overwhelmed and didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't develop any real interest in knowing about the family she now knew she had in this other country--or in the country itself, despite Claudia and Elizabeth formally trying to make her interested in an emotional way.

Hassan Minaj talks a lot in his act about having immigrant parents and it's hilarious--one of the many things he says is that immigrant parents never tell you anything. So one day you're like, "Wait, Mom's a ninja? Dad's a Communist? What??!" Philip and Elizabeth really weren't that forthcoming about their pasts--Elizabeth was a lot more than Philip, though. But it wasn't so much Paige asking and being shut down, it didn't seem to me. When she did ask she often got an answer, but not one that was satisfying to her. Not one that made things more understandable. Again it goes back to Dev's point about Paige wanting things to be normal but instead they're just more foreign--again, like her meeting with her grandmother that doesn't seem to help her at all. She tried and tried and always felt like her parents were aliens.

Henry, ironically, might have been much better with that aspect of it, just accepting their weirdness and foreignness.

I know I sometimes saw reactions from viewers that were really dismissive of the USSR in general--like they couldn't really wrap their head around the idea that anyone there would actually see it as their home and love it the way someone in the US would. Paige isn't arrogant in that way, but the place clearly isn't real to her. She never asks about learning to speak Russian, for instance. She actually brings it up as another thing that would be absurd. She was never prepared to live there while to Philip and Elizabeth it was always a perfectly valid alternative. They didn't want to be there alone, but that's its own issue. But plenty of kids in Paige's class might have a genuine interest even without a family background. They might totally live there at some point.

One thing I thought we might see as the ending that wasn't was Elizabeth seeing herself as responsible for a lot of the sorrow through her choices. So many times Philip wanted to leave with the kids when that was still a possibility. It was a possibility at the end of season 5. That was her last chance to turn down the idea and it sealed their fate of being separated from the kids abruptly. I thought surely it was leading to that but it really wasn't at all.

[Penman61]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Don Draper will be about 70 by 1990. I wonder if he'll meet Liz at an oncology center, stupidly try to seduce her, and Liz will kill him with an overdose of chemo.

This isn't the crossover we need. 

But maybe it's the crossover we deserve...

[Razzberry]

The show was good and kind of addictive, but too many of the main characters as written never resonated with me like they did to others.  They had all the fixins for a great stew.  It would have been interesting to see an average American teenager in those circumstances, but Paige isn't one.  Then they make her even MORE annoying by so much screen time about silly sparring sessions, etc. while at the same time dumbing her down to little more than..a.. timid...question mark?  ALL of this, just for the train-jumping FU.  It's like they had the ending years ago, and Paige was a creaky writer's device to get there. Epic fail, to me anyway.

Neglect and abuse of Stan's character for a semi-sappy ending with our two favorite illegals is more bs.  His exposition on Thanksgiving was only to make his dilemma in the garage more gripping, but dumbed down characters don't grip me, they infuriate me.  I can't help but think of wasted opportunity and how much better it would have been if only their nemisis had been written as smart.  

Bottom line, they just didn't convince me of this alleged powerful bond between them that would make Stan act the way he did, but I agree the actor was fantastic.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm really disappointed that Elizabeth largely escaped being "outed" as the monster she is (became) ... particularly to herself, but also largely to both Paige and Phillip (who I doubt knows about how she "took care of " Erica ...  I think the writers "whiffed" on this  aspect, likely because (as we've seen) they really have avoided characters talking about issues and questions ... The amount that Paige doesn't know (and has not apparently asked about) in the last 3 or 6 years despite endless hours on stake-out with her mother ... see also information not shared with Paige by Elizabeth ...  Paige has been kept in the dark to be blindsided again and again ... 

I wish she had gotten off the train in full-boil anger, asserting her right to make decisions about her future ... but it was left vague for the audience to figure out ... like what she was doing at Claudia's (or the significance that the FBI had not yet apparently stumbled on or connected Claudia and that safe house).  

Question I've never seen is how / what exactly did Elizabeth think this was all going to work out.  I also wish that I'd ever seen Paige confronted with the terrible life-time burden (and jeopardy) she foisted on the The Tims ... Everyone seems to have forgotten the (should be dead) Mrs. Tim.  Pastor and Mrs. Tim will live with the dual jeopardy forever --- gee, thanks Paige.  I'm guessing Pastor Tim didn't tell her about Stan's (mysterious) phone call.  Another secret to keep. Also -- are the negatives and photographic prints of Tim's diary ashes? 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[jjj]

The one moment that really took my breath away and shocked me as it happened was Stan walking into the garage and heartily saying "HI, WHAT ARE YOU ALL DOING?"  I expected him to trail them or call the FBI teams.  But just walking in there -- shocked me.  I could feel all of their blood run cold.  (But man, all the fake friendship Philip expressed for Stan was as believable as Philip saying the car was a loaner and their actual car was in the shop.  This tells you how fast and convincingly he was lying throughout.  Salesman, for his family's life. And Elizabeth did not hesitate to use her daughter as an emotional hostage.  "Stan, it's *Paige*.") 

The moment that had me laughing hysterically was Philip saying "She might be one of us."  I was expecting some sort of reveal about her, but that was just hilarious to me.  I could not even focus on them driving out, because I was still laughing.  (Such a reaction because I was waiting for it, and I did not expect Philip to spill the alleged beans..)

The most moving moment for me was Philip tearing through the train compartments to get to Elizabeth after they both saw Paige on the station platform.  Then they separately glanced at each other and struggled to process this, side by side, breaking protocol to deal with this shock together.  

[scartact]

I definitely forgot Paige questioned this in season 2, and yes it's interesting that Paige didn't necessarily develop an interest in the familial aspects of being Russian, and I wonder why, other than part of it being that Philip and Elizabeth were often pretty vague about their family histories. How much context did Paige even really get about her grandmother? And also, this notion of Paige marking herself as Other (that sense of "foreignness" no matter how much she tries to learn) but wanting to be Normal is interesting from that immigrant narrative perspective.

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I know I sometimes saw reactions from viewers that were really dismissive of the USSR in general--like they couldn't really wrap their head around the idea that anyone there would actually see it as their home and love it the way someone in the US would. Paige isn't arrogant in that way, but the place clearly isn't real to her. She never asks about learning to speak Russian, for instance. She actually brings it up as another thing that would be absurd. She was never prepared to live there while to Philip and Elizabeth it was always a perfectly valid alternative. They didn't want to be there alone, but that's its own issue. But plenty of kids in Paige's class might have a genuine interest even without a family background. They might totally live there at some point.

But yes, I've seen the aforementioned Hasan Minhaj stand up and as a child of immigrant parents too, I've thought a lot about what it means for the show. From my perspective and experiences (with both friends and family) I have seen parents willing to go back to their home country to retire (even countries perceived as "dangerous" for people who aren't from those countries) after living and raising children in the U.S. for a considerable amount of time. It's tricky because I do see Paige as a Diasporic child in some ways, which has it's own connotations and histories in itself, that the show doesn't necessarily quite track and address (at least to my satisfaction), hence why if I do a rewatch, I do want to think a little about it from that context.

 

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

One thing I thought we might see as the ending that wasn't was Elizabeth seeing herself as responsible for a lot of the sorrow through her choices. So many times Philip wanted to leave with the kids when that was still a possibility. It was a possibility at the end of season 5. That was her last chance to turn down the idea and it sealed their fate of being separated from the kids abruptly. I thought surely it was leading to that but it really wasn't at all.

Although we don't necessarily see Elizabeth come to that point of recognizing her complicity in all those choices, especially the bad and/or violent ones, she made (at what point does she stop telling herself all the choices she made were to "make the world a better place," and when does she recognize that holy shit, just like Philip realized, she did a lot of fucked up things?), it does make me think what that reintegration into the USSR stuff would look like for her. To what extent will she be self-reflective and critical about the role she played, and what it meant for her to lose sight of people in order to uphold the mission? Basically, how does she take and manage all that realization she had from this past season? But that's all just post-finale speculation now.

[SusanSunflower]

Nussbaum's dissection in the New Yorker of the garage scene (which is chilling) is the best I have read and I think (suspect) is spot-on to what the writers intended ... Paige's demeanor and guilt-suggesting exclamations/admissions again suggest that Elizabeth never "really" explained both "what to do" and "what not to admit" (hint:  anything to anyone).    I suspect that Stan will appreciate her lack of wiles. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I thought Paige’s reaction was primarily human. Not American. Definitely not selfish- she wasn’t talking about herself.

 I think it is normal when you’re given life altering news for your mind to just spin in a million directions- from the huge- we’re going to RUSSIA and leaving without Henry and dad can’t talk to him again - to the comparatively small- Henry’s college education funding. 

Renember when Elizabeth and Philip were worried about catching the virus and they talked about the kids schoolwork? William thought they were nuts. It was so....unimportant big picture wise. 

I was surprised by her reaction. I expected it to be totally about herself - and found it pretty moving that it was about Henry, and that at least for a while, she was willingly going with her parents.

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige certainly did. It was one of the reasons she thought they were sketchy.

Yet she didn't actually like meeting her grandmother too much. I think she was just overwhelmed and didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't develop any real interest in knowing about the family she now knew she had in this other country--or in the country itself, despite Claudia and Elizabeth formally trying to make her interested in an emotional way.

Hassan Minaj talks a lot in his act about having immigrant parents and it's hilarious--one of the many things he says is that immigrant parents never tell you anything. So one day you're like, "Wait, Mom's a ninja? Dad's a Communist? What??!" Philip and Elizabeth really weren't that forthcoming about their pasts--Elizabeth was a lot more than Philip, though. But it wasn't so much Paige asking and being shut down, it didn't seem to me. When she did ask she often got an answer, but not one that was satisfying to her. Not one that made things more understandable. Again it goes back to Dev's point about Paige wanting things to be normal but instead they're just more foreign--again, like her meeting with her grandmother that doesn't seem to help her at all. She tried and tried and always felt like her parents were aliens.

Henry, ironically, might have been much better with that aspect of it, just accepting their weirdness and foreignness.

I know I sometimes saw reactions from viewers that were really dismissive of the USSR in general--like they couldn't really wrap their head around the idea that anyone there would actually see it as their home and love it the way someone in the US would. Paige isn't arrogant in that way, but the place clearly isn't real to her. She never asks about learning to speak Russian, for instance. She actually brings it up as another thing that would be absurd. She was never prepared to live there while to Philip and Elizabeth it was always a perfectly valid alternative. They didn't want to be there alone, but that's its own issue. But plenty of kids in Paige's class might have a genuine interest even without a family background. They might totally live there at some point.

One thing I thought we might see as the ending that wasn't was Elizabeth seeing herself as responsible for a lot of the sorrow through her choices. So many times Philip wanted to leave with the kids when that was still a possibility. It was a possibility at the end of season 5. That was her last chance to turn down the idea and it sealed their fate of being separated from the kids abruptly. I thought surely it was leading to that but it really wasn't at all.

I love Hassan Minaj's act - and Prom King is both hysterically funny and heartbreaking - which is a pretty difficult balance.

As a child of an immigrant, and of an American soldier who was posted overseas most of my formative years, the concept of loving your country despite the bad stuff isn't foreign to me. These days, even more so. I had the great privilege of going to school in a foreign country (not a military dependent school), and discovered early on how we all pretty much want the same things. People are people, and we pretty much all want the same things - our different cultures just make the idea of how they play out in our lives different.

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Nussbaum's dissection in the New Yorker of the garage scene (which is chilling) is the best I have read and I think (suspect) is spot-on to what the writers intended ... Paige's demeanor and guilt-suggesting exclamations/admissions again suggest that Elizabeth never "really" explained both "what to do" and "what not to admit" (hint:  anything to anyone).    I suspect that Stan will appreciate her lack of wiles. 

Thanks, and I will hope to find this in the Media thread.  That is the only scene I watched again, because so much was happening beyond what was said.  

[shura]

Just re-watched, picked up a couple things I don't think I've seen mentioned.

In the garage, Philip says to Stan "All these years we watched Americans, recruited Americans - and now we finally, actually got something - and it's the fucking Russians," Finally, actually? As if everything they'd done in the previous twenty plus years wasn't that serious and didn't really amount to much? That's one hundred percent manipulation on Philip's part.

On the other hand, when Paige comes out of the blue with "You have to take care of Henry!", I don't believe for a second that it's something calculated. It's Paige, she is not that good. Stan knows that, that's why he addresses her when he confronts the three of them in the garage. Her saying that has got to be what convinces Stan that Henry actually knows nothing.

Last, Philip and Elizabeth are crossing the Soviet border from Poland, not Finland, the Volvo notwithstanding. The sign on the booth says "Kontrola Pasportowa/Паспортный Контроль/Passport Control" in Polish, Russian and English.

Edited June 2, 2018 by shura

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, I thought the reality dawned on Paige that IF Henry could stay behind (say no), she could too ....  and that she also could deal with the uncertainty of "who will pay my tuition" and other burning security question.  I don't think she "understood" that her only chance to break down the wall to intimacy created by her secret spy identity was to destroy / walk away from it ... but I can wish .... she was doomed to always be alone (like William, who after his wife's departure, found forming some new relationship simply overwhelming and unsatisfying) -- too many secret, too guarded, too censored) ... She needed to leave so she could "be herself" ....  just herself. 

[Umbelina]

After some reflection, and also after making up Best and Worst case outcomes for our main characters in the Americans part 2 thread?

As an episode, I would definitely give this a A, perhaps even an A+.  It kept me glued, it surprised me, it touched me, and it didn't end in bloodshed, which would have been far too easy.

As a series finale?  It's only about a B-or maybe even a C+ for me. 

There is no real ending here.  Every single character on screen was left with several possible futures, from the horrible to the mundane and back up to maybe even happy ones.  It's a "write your own ending" ending.

Oleg may be released or not.  Paige may go to prison or not.  Stan may be arrested or not.  Henry may stay in school or not.  Philip and Elizabeth may be killed by the Coup people or may go on to be miserable in Russia, or may do well in the "new Russia" to come, absolutely any of these possibilities are easy to imagine.  Renee may be a spy, or not, she may get caught or not. 

They gave not a single glimmer of closure for the show.  It's just another day in the life of the characters, all facing possible ruin...or not.

I didn't expect a neat bow, but I did expect a bit more than this.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[Steph J]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip never loved or wanted to be with Martha so that's not even as issue. 

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Certainly he didn't love her the way that he loved Elizabeth, but I think that he did have some genuine, deep feelings for her (feelings that were not just guilt) by the time that whole operation fell apart and she had to be put on a plane.

Speaking of Martha, I was really hoping that we'd get to see her one more time in this episode, even though I know that her storyline was pretty well wrapped up already. It's weird, because I remember finding Martha kind of annoying in the first season, but she really grew on me over time.

[ava111]

On 5/31/2018 at 1:26 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

It was nice how even though P and E are back in Russia and alone, they still in English. 

As someone from former eastern bloc who has lived in USA for the past 21 years I can tell you that going back to speak the other language would take a while. I barely ever speak my first language, I talk to my family maybe once every two months, read in English, watch TV shows in English, dream in English, everything is in English. I realized few years back that I have sometimes difficulty to remember the word I want to use in my first language. Haven't been "home" in 10 years. I don't even have citizenship yet but I consider USA my home now. Imagine P and E were never even allowed to speak Russian, they didn't watch movies or read books in that language as they would be discouraged to do that, they didn't even eat the Russian dish Claudia made. I on the other hand have books and movies in my first language in my home and can speak to my family. And I still have difficulty now after 21 years. They have been in USA even longer. So start talking immediately as they get to Russia in their first language wouldn't happen. The sentence structures in English and Russian (and in my Slavic language) are completely different and it's not easy to switch the thinking plus remember the words after so many years. It would be different if they would use both languages similar amount of the time. So no, it's not as easy as riding the bike after 20 years.

Also want to add that they spoke Russian till teens and after that they had to train and learn English so since that time they would be encouraged to speak only English. I came to USA at 26 and barely spoke any English. So they had even less time when they used their first language. At this moment when the story ends they spoke English longer than Russian during their lives.

Edited June 2, 2018 by ava111
Adding

[Pink-n-Green]

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (I want to take my time and savor it) so I apologize if someone else mentioned this, but did anyone else get a "Newhart" vibe when Elizabeth was dreaming of being in bed with Gregory?  I didn't catch that the first time I watched the scene but when I went back it hit me!

 

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:52 PM, showme said:

Well, you assumed wrong. The kids of the real life Russian spies continued to study in America, and they even got their Canadian citizenship back. By your logic, they should be arrested and their life ruined, that is simply not what happened in real life. In America, you are usually not guilty by association, OK?

What about Maryland v. Pringle? I have always felt that that case was a striking example of guilt by association.  I'm probably showing my age here and I can't remember exactly what Justice Rehnquist said in his opinion, but it was something along the lines of the arresting officer being able to reasonably conclude that the defendant was in possession of cocaine despite the fact that the drugs were not found on his person but in the back of the car he was riding in.  Guilt by association, right?   And Mr. Pringle hadn't even been living with the other men in the car for the past 19 years.  :)  Then there's the Felony Murder rule.  I'm sure you know that many have argued that this doctrine is guilt by association in its purest form (and I'm not inclined to disagree).  And of course don't forget good old United States v. Park. 

Your assertion that in America citizens are usually not believed to be guilty by association is a noble one but, unfortunately, incorrect.  OK?

Finally, I'll pose the question that I know has been burning in all of our heads.  Who gets the wig collection??

Edited June 2, 2018 by Pink-n-Green

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, scartact said:

But I also guess this is where I think back to the context of Philip and Elizabeth also being immigrant parents, and perhaps it's through this lens that we might be able to understand or parse even a little bit of what's going on in that sense. While the immigrant narrative wasn't super prominent, to me it is an underlying theme and parallel, and so I think the argument of whether or not Paige is solely "American" or "Russian" is a little bit iffy; in some ways she's both because Russia is in her blood, but in a sense she's also a child of Diaspora (more or less) and grew up American, she wouldn't necessarily hold those kinds of feelings of homeland that Philip and Elizabeth have, though she does try so that she can locate some sense of history that was never quite afforded to her as a child. I mean, that makes me wonder how much a a family history they even really gave Paige and Henry when they were much younger. Did they notice the lack of aunts and uncles, grandparents and cousins?

Philip and Elizabeth's differences in terms of assimilation are also significant in that sense; Elizabeth wants to transfer that nationalist pride in the USSR to Paige, to somehow imply the Cause is also in her blood, but Philip, who assimilated way more than Elizabeth, recognizes that's not necessarily going to happen. I've always wanted to do a close read of the show as an immigrant narrative; it isn't the dominant narrative of the show, but I think it a narrative strand that undergirds some of the context the family exists in, particularly in the Philip/Elizabeth/Paige context.

When I read Philip and Elizabeth's parenting of Paige through that immigrant perspective lens, it's sort of heartbreaking. Rhys said in an interview with Todd VanDerWerff that in the final scene, he absolutely believes Philip feels he's failed his children. I wonder if Elizabeth does too?

I will be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the immigrant narrative. I'm not a child of immigrants so I don't have that direct experience. But one thing that was hugely different with P&E vs people I've known who are immigrants with American children is that P&E were hiding the very fact that they were immigrants. There were no chances to prepare food from "the old country". No holiday traditions to pass on. No favorite songs or books to share. No phrases said in exasperation or delight in the native tongue. Even without extended family, there are all kinds of ways that children learn about their family heritage without ever realizing it and P&E worked very hard to make sure that their children never knew anything at all. I think that's part of why the Russian culture lessons with Paige didn't really work. It was all too foreign, and too outdated. The Great Patriotic War didn't mean enough to her. If she'd heard about it as a child, it might have seeped into her subconscious without her realizing. Maybe if they'd introduced her to someone from Russia or the greater USSR who was closer to her own age it might have felt more real to her.

I suspect Elizabeth also feels she failed her children., but probably in different ways or to different degrees. I hope they would be able to talk about it with each other. 

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, Steph J said:

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Certainly he didn't love her the way that he loved Elizabeth, but I think that he did have some genuine, deep feelings for her (feelings that were not just guilt) by the time that whole operation fell apart and she had to be put on a plane.

I agree not all his feelings were guilt. I think he saw her as a genuinely good person who had qualities he really appreciated. He was just never romantically interested in her and I don't think he particularly enjoyed spending time with her.

I would say something similar about Kimmy, actually. I think Philip really liked Kimmy for similar reasons to Martha. Both women sometimes surprised him with their compassion for him. Kimmy, especially, a couple of times really saw something true in him behind the Jim disguise and was honestly kind about it. Even insightful. I really do think he was moved by these qualities in them, and that's particularly interesting when you remember that his wife is very lacking in exactly this type of quality. It's not that she doesn't care, but she doesn't have that sort of kindness. (I think that's a relief for him, really. He doesn't have to feel as protective of her.)

19 minutes ago, ava111 said:

It would be different if they would use both languages similar amount of the time. So no, it's not as easy as riding the bike after 20 years.

Yes, when you think about it, this is partly why it was so important that they immersed themselves in English before coming to the US. You never hear them use a sentence structure that implies they're "thinking" in that language. There are some mistakes that are a tell for somebody who knows the native language.

In the show's universe they seem to want to establish that they are still comfortable enough that they can easily understand it passively and they've sometimes spoken a bit--this ep had Elizabeth and Philip both say a simple thing. But they will have to get back into it, definitely, especially the way they think through sentences.

Btw, Masha Gessen, the translator on the show, talked about how they arrived back in the USSR just as the language is about to change and start incorporating a ton of foreign words. She really appreciated how the showrunners not only wanted authentic Russian on the show but indulged her desire to try to keep the language correct for that time period. So it's colloquial and natural but doesn't have anachronistic words.

As per usual I would love to hear a native speaker say how the leads did with their tiny bits of Russian.

18 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (I want to take my time and savor it) so I apologize if someone else mentioned this, but did anyone else get a "Newhart" vibe when Elizabeth was dreaming of being in bed with Gregory?  I didn't catch that the first time I watched the scene but when I went back it hit me!

LOL!

Quote

I will be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the immigrant narrative. I'm not a child of immigrants so I don't have that direct experience. But one thing that was hugely different with P&E vs people I've known who are immigrants with American children is that P&E were hiding the very fact that they were immigrants. There were no chances to prepare food from "the old country". No holiday traditions to pass on. No favorite songs or books to share. No phrases said in exasperation or delight in the native tongue. Even without extended family, there are all kinds of ways that children learn about their family heritage without ever realizing it and P&E worked very hard to make sure that their children never knew anything at all. I think that's part of why the Russian culture lessons with Paige didn't really work. It was all too foreign, and too outdated. The Great Patriotic War didn't mean enough to her. If she'd heard about it as a child, it might have seeped into her subconscious without her realizing. Maybe if they'd introduced her to someone from Russia or the greater USSR who was closer to her own age it might have felt more real to her.

Totally agree. This is one reason it would be interesting for the kids to actually see them again after they've settled in again and maybe become more comfortable being their Russian/American selves. They'd still naturally always speak English with the kids but they might switch in their presence or throw in some words.

Edited June 2, 2018 by sistermagpie

[anonymiss]

42 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As an episode, I would definitely give this a A, perhaps even an A+.  It kept me glued, it surprised me, it touched me, and it didn't end in bloodshed, which would have been far too easy.

As a series finale?  It's only about a B-or maybe even a C+ for me. 

There is no real ending here.  Every single character on screen was left with several possible futures, from the horrible to the mundane and back up to maybe even happy ones.  It's a "write your own ending" ending.

Oleg may be released or not.  Paige may go to prison or not.  Stan may be arrested or not.  Henry may stay in school or not.  Philip and Elizabeth may be killed by the Coup people or may go on to be miserable in Russia, or may do well in the "new Russia" to come, absolutely any of these possibilities are easy to imagine.  Renee may be a spy, or not, she may get caught or not. 

They gave not a single glimmer of closure for the show.  It's just another day in the life of the characters, all facing possible ruin...or not.

I didn't expect a neat bow, but I did expect a bit more than this.

I agree completely.

It was a long tease amounting to an anticlimatic finale. 

They played it as safe as they could, deciding next to nothing. When Paige wasn't on the train I thought, finally, something is happening but nope, she just walked off and wandered off to the safehouse. 

[SusanSunflower]

We don't know (much if anything about) what P&E told their kids .... (or what their official biography gave) ... no reason they couldn't be pre-revolutionary Russian!!!!, or Polish or Austrian.  Most everyone in the USA is from somewhere else in their lineage, at some point immigrants .... I'm half old-New-England (from England in the 1600's) and half Czech in the 1880's (to avoid the draft and Imperial Wars)  .... and yes, my mother made a big deal about our lineage/blood lines (which I rejected as elitist) and my father made nothing out of his  Czech side of the family (I know only what's in a short letter from my grandfather, but not, for example, the city they immigrated from) .... This was common in my neighborhood.  My best friends mother was first generation American of Polish Immigrants and her husband (their father) was first generation American-Irish.   My other neighbor's family was half "Mexican" in the USA / California since the big Rancheros,  Grandmother German-speaking German ... 

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, shura said:

In the garage, Philip says to Stan "All these years we watched Americans, recruited Americans - and now we finally, actually got something - and it's the fucking Russians," Finally, actually? As if everything they'd done in the previous twenty plus years wasn't that serious and didn't really amount to much? That's one hundred manipulation on Philip's part.

I disagree. That's something Philip was always tortured by -- stealing propeller plans that ended up sinking a Russian submarine, acquiring deadly viruses for defensive purposes that were instead used to murder mujahideen, killing innocent people to prevent a plague of midges only to discover that they were being used to eliminate famines, not cause them. The missions that left Philip feeling like he'd genuinely had a positive impact were few and far between.

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

I'm really disappointed that Elizabeth largely escaped being "outed" as the monster she is (became) ... particularly to herself, but also largely to both Paige and Phillip (who I doubt knows about how she "took care of " Erica ...  I think the writers "whiffed" on this  aspect, likely because (as we've seen) they really have avoided characters talking about issues and questions ... The amount that Paige doesn't know (and has not apparently asked about) in the last 3 or 6 years despite endless hours on stake-out with her mother ... see also information not shared with Paige by Elizabeth ...  Paige has been kept in the dark to be blindsided again and again ... 

I wish she had gotten off the train in full-boil anger, asserting her right to make decisions about her future ... but it was left vague for the audience to figure out ... like what she was doing at Claudia's (or the significance that the FBI had not yet apparently stumbled on or connected Claudia and that safe house).

See, I feel exactly the opposite. If Paige's reaction to learning that her parents were murderous monsters is just to get really mad and storm off, nothing could be less interesting to me. "Middle-class American girl is horrified by murder" is a real "Dog bites man" story, you know?

So I was glad the writers made the decision to avoid that revelation altogether (in a way that felt believable to me, since it was something her mother was deliberately keeping from her), so Paige could instead confront something much more difficult and nuanced than "Murder is bad" -- namely, the fact that she'd spent her whole teenage life trying to bring a sense of normalcy to a life that could never be normal. (And, yes, the fact that spies have to murder people is a part of why that's the case, but bringing that issue to the forefront would've inevitably drowned out everything else.)

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

As a series finale?  It's only about a B-or maybe even a C+ for me. 

There is no real ending here.  Every single character on screen was left with several possible futures, from the horrible to the mundane and back up to maybe even happy ones.  It's a "write your own ending" ending.

Oleg may be released or not.  Paige may go to prison or not.  Stan may be arrested or not.  Henry may stay in school or not.  Philip and Elizabeth may be killed by the Coup people or may go on to be miserable in Russia, or may do well in the "new Russia" to come, absolutely any of these possibilities are easy to imagine.  Renee may be a spy, or not, she may get caught or not. 

They gave not a single glimmer or closure for the show.  It's just another day in the life of the characters, all facing possible ruin...or not.

I dunno, I feel like Philip and Elizabeth's resolution is pretty definitive. They were the Russians trying to adjust to life in America, and now they're the Americans trying to adjust to life in Russia. Whatever happens, they'll get through it together, because they've lived the same story before. It's the end because it's the beginning.

Certainly, some of the other character get a less definitive ending -- particularly Oleg. But it's not like they ran out of time or something; it just wouldn't make narrative sense to continue the supporting characters' storylines beyond the end of the main characters'. And even the characters that didn't get closure per se were brought to a meaningfully new place, from Paige giving up her quixotic quest for normalcy, to Stan setting aside conscience-salving distractions for the first time to be there for someone he loves. Even Oleg completes his transformation from devil-may-care playboy to doomed defender of what's right, while his father confronts the most crushing limits of his ability to wave his influence at every problem and make it go away.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Dev F