S02.E05: Akane No Mai

[Notwisconsin]

27 minutes ago, Haleth said:

The only thing that moved me in WW last night was Clemmie facing her replacement and looking so hurt.

That was the highlight of he episode for me. I think that was her awakening and that she can't talk. That was totally forshadowing.

[Kanner]

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

 

What song was the one that played when Akane started dancing? Sounded familar but i couldn't put my finger on it.

The Wu Tang Clan - C.R.E.A.M (Cash Rules Everything Around Me) . It was brilliant.

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ahh, once again asking the age old question: cowboys or ninjas?

Ninjas.  The cowboys would have lost without Maeve's "magic" :P

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I enjoyed shogun world. It was nice to get the fuck out of Westworld and see something different, even if the stories started out the same (thanks to Sizemore's laziness/tight time schedule). It doesn't hurt that the sets, costumes, and makeup were all beautiful.

I would like to see ShogunWorld with guests, before everything went batshit crazy.  

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

Dear HBO,

can I please have a Samurai show with that production value next? It's the one thing you haven't done yet. The Sengoku Jidai is just ripe for some gory drama. 

This. 100%. HBO should do a "Rome" style TV show set in 8th century Japan :)  Part of my disappointment was knowing the hosts were malfunctioning but I wanted a more "traditional" story. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, Jenesis said:

When I heard Lee talking about Shogun World being for people who found WestWorld too tame, I wondered why William spend 30 years dicking around in WW (killing poor Lawrence). Go to SW if you're so badass, MIB.

I don't think that Shogun World is tougher to beat than WestWorld. It's just bloodier. Swords lend themselves to dismemberment, decapitations and evisceration in a way that the main weapons of WestWorld - guns, knives, lassos and nooses -- don't.  I find it harder to picture smart swords that can cause that gore with hosts but have no effect on guests, but oh well.

I'd guess MiB probably has sampled all of the Delos parks over the years, but had the same frustration that since there's no real risk, there's no real reward for beating them.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, eliot90000 said:

I completely agree. This episode was one of the cleverest this show has managed yet, and it's a very clever show.  The meta commentary has always been my favorite aspect of the show, which is why it's so fun for Maeve to have a writer along for the ride.  People who are bothered by the gore have obviously not experienced many Samurai movies.  The world created in the show is not meant to be compared to real life.  It's an amusement park.    

I'm not not bothered by the gore. I'm bored senseless. People are interesting because they are unique and unpredictable individuals. For some reason, the people in this show have never been written in a way that is particularly interesting; I said last year that the hosts were more interesting than the humans, and while the revelation that the hosts are built using the same templates over and over makes a lot of sense, it makes the hosts less interesting as well , and they already had become less interesting this season.

If I went to an amusement park every week for several weeks. I'd grow tired of that as well

[zobot81]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ahh, once again asking the age old question: cowboys or ninjas?

Ninjas. The answer is always Ninjas.

[UNOSEZ]

Maeve= Prof X

Dolores = Magneto

Teddy = Cyclops??... Woah mind blown

[Ottis]

9 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I was surprised by how different the topography was between WestWorld and Shogun World -- all within walking distance of each other.
They even replicated Mt. Fuji, which must have cost a lot since it's over 2 miles high at the peak (some 12000+ ft.).

I don't know how much they replicate something in the distance like Mt. Fuji, and how much of that is future holographic visuals. Unless there is a guest story on Mt. Fuji, it would be a waste to actually create it.

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Did you notice Mt Fuji in the opening credits?

There was an establishing shot that showed in in the background.

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

To me it was one of the most interesting shows of the season, in large part because it starts to explore a major implication of digital intelligence -- namely, that there is absolutely no reason why programmed lifeforms would have to be unique and induplicable.

I don't know why this is interesting. Given we already know that the host body types rotate through different roles, it's clear that body types and roles are interchangable and can repeat across worlds (there are only so many archetypes). I think it would become interesting only if a guest who went to different worlds got pissed off because of replicated stories. But I assume we won't see that, at this point.

10 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

If Maeve plays her cards right she'll have the army Dolores wishes she had. 

This is what I kept thinking as Maeve made her way through Samuari World. Inspire loyalty through freedom, vs. vengeance.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

High five to Felix for telling Sylvester to fuck off for assuming he knew Japanese. "I'm from Hong Kong, ASSHOLE."

Except ... this would have been better if, instead of Hong Kong, he had said something like Kansas. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility to assume that an Asian person who, we know know, lived in Asia, might know more than one Asian language. Like a German who you think might know French. I know many Europeans who know 2-3 or more languages.

I hope there is a Jurassic Park world.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ottis

[Ellaria]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

Totally baffled by the hate for this episode. To me it was one of the most interesting shows of the season, in large part because it starts to explore a major implication of digital intelligence -- namely, that there is absolutely no reason why programmed lifeforms would have to be unique and induplicable...

...And not only did this episode deal honestly with this inevitable element of the show's premise, it did so in a fun and surprising way, presenting not literal duplicates but the sort of lazy copy-paste doppelgangers that overworked coders would quite believably resort to. 

No need to be baffled. I agree that the reveal that the hosts and their story lines are not unique was interesting. However, it was not enough to sustain me throughout the episode. Also - and this is a complaint that I have with many shows - much of the episode was dark and was difficult to see even in HD.

I enjoy this show and the twisty elements of it. However, one problem that I have with it is pacing and the presentation of the various story lines and characters. We have three characters on personal journeys thru the park. Still not sure about Bernard and whatever it is he is doing. We have a group of high level security searching for answers. Charlotte has her own agenda. William's daughter is now involved. And throw non-liner timeline on top of all of this and...well, sometimes its just overload. 

Yes, the season is still unfolding and I'm sure that it will all make sense once we get to the end of the season. It is hard to get invested in new characters and new twists week after week.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Except ... this would have been better if, instead of Hong Kong, he had said something like Kansas. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility to assume that an Asian person who, we know know, lived in Asia, might know more than one Asian language. Like a German who you think might know French. I know many Europeans who knows 2-3 or more languages.

ITA that it would have been better if he had said, "Fuck off. I'm from Florida!" Any assumption that he should speak ANY Asian language based on his face is a dick move IMO.

[Dev F]

8 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I don't know why this is interesting. Given we already know that the host body types rotate through different roles, it's clear that body types and roles are interchangable and can repeat across worlds (there are only so many archetypes).

Because so much of the human experience is based on the fact that every human being is unique and irreplaceable, whereas a defining element of a purely digital existence would be that you could create an exact copy of your entire being, at will and virtually instantaneously. It would raise questions about the value of individual life that digital beings would inevitably have to reckon with, so it's nice to see Maeve and company start to do so.

[Uncle JUICE]

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

 

Yes, the season is still unfolding and I'm sure that it will all make sense once we get to the end of the season. It is hard to get invested in new characters and new twists week after week.

I came here to write something along these same lines, this really captures it well. THis show feels like it's rushing from its beginning to its endgame. I feel like part of the problem I'm having with season 2 is that it pays off more if you take it slowly and make it like season 4. THere's just not been enough time to develop the ties to some of these characters, even the original Westworld characters, in order to have some impact on me as a viewer. I'd have liked to spend more time with the park itself in season 1, then Delos and the control area in season 2, have season 3 build to the awakening of the robots, then season 4 is basically The Terminator prequel. 

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

The Wu Tang Clan - C.R.E.A.M (Cash Rules Everything Around Me) . It was brilliant.

I really WANT this to be true (that this is the song Akane danced to) but since I'm not familiar with the Wu Tang Clan's oeuvre I can't be sure.  Even if it's just a joke response -- bravo.

[Kanner]

3 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I really WANT this to be true (that this is the song Akane danced to) but since I'm not familiar with the Wu Tang Clan's oeuvre I can't be sure.  Even if it's just a joke response -- bravo.

I wish I was that quick and witty.

 

[Ottis]

17 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Because so much of the human experience is based on the fact that every human being is unique and irreplaceable, whereas a defining element of a purely digital existence would be that you could create an exact copy of your entire being, at will and virtually instantaneously. It would raise questions about the value of individual life that digital beings would inevitably have to reckon with, so it's nice to see Maeve and company start to do so.

Good point. There is no reason to assume that the robots, if they were to win their revolution, would have to base their values on human values, is there? They could recognize that there are 300 Sacred Roles. And whenever one of them came apart (for whatever reason), they could download themselves into a new physical construct. Or they could start with the 300 and end up with millions of evolved personalities, and still download themselves, at whatever point they had reached, into a new physical body as needed. I'm not sure that question interests me. There have been so many shows about robots becoming human, and the paths they take after that point, that I feel like I've seen all that before.

I think the greater issue is, if the robots don't die, should they stop making more of themselves at some point? What natural resources do robots even need?

[Jodie Landon]

17 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I really WANT this to be true (that this is the song Akane danced to) but since I'm not familiar with the Wu Tang Clan's oeuvre I can't be sure.  Even if it's just a joke response -- bravo.

I heard Wu Tang Clan's C.R.E.A.M too. It was unexpected, but greatly appreciated.

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Did you notice Mt Fuji in the opening credits?

I did spot that as well.

That long shot of the Shogun's camp with Mt. Fuji in the distance makes me think it is real as compared to holographics of  some sort (especially since we have not seen any use of holography on that scale anywhere in the park.  Plus, wouldn't it be visible from the WestWorld park ?

[Ottis]

57 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA that it would have been better if he had said, "Fuck off. I'm from Florida!" Any assumption that he should speak ANY Asian language based on his face is a dick move IMO.

We don't know that Sylvester's comment is based solely on Lutz's face. It's possible that Sylvester knows Lutz lived/grew up/is from Asia, just not where.  Could have been Tokyo, could have been Manilla, could have been Beijing. Sylvester may simply have been asking if Lutz knows Japanese.  IRL, I know we often jump to conclusions when someone asks something unartfully. In this case, assuming it is only because of his Asian face is an assumption. Or I've forgotten racist comments from Sylvester in past episodes, which is possible.

[JustCrazy]

I guess I’m in the minority because I loved this episode and thought it was the best one so far.  Yes, it was bloody but it was feudal Japan.  I even for the first time enjoyed the Delores and Teddy scenes, which I usually find incredibly boring.  Part of my enjoyment this week is probably because I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in westerns.  I also enjoyed the cutting back and forth in the action.  It had me on the edge of my seat.  Love, love, love Shogun World??. More, please!

Edited May 21, 2018 by JustCrazy

[Joimiaroxeu]

I'm always glad to see Hiroyuki Sanada.

[tpplay]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes, the season is still unfolding and I'm sure that it will all make sense once we get to the end of the season. It is hard to get invested in new characters and new twists week after week.

With JJ Abrahms Executive Producing, I wouldn't count on anything making sense at the end.  Apparently, that's not his strong suit.

[Uncle JUICE]

Can someone explain why Dolores and Teddy fuck? Are hosts designed to get physical pleasure from fucking the guests? If so, wouldn't that function also be somehow tied to reading the guest's pleasure? In other words, let's say you want to have sex with one of the hosts...wouldn't they be basically impossible to disappoint (the woman host, I'm talking about), because who'd want to pay to go on a sex-cation and repeatedly leave the hosts unfulfilled? Same thing with the male hosts, I'd imagine they just turn on the old boner=tron 5K and just read the woman's physical reactions to judge how to be the best vibrator ever? (Obviously, this is all applicable to homosexual activity, too). It seems like two robots fucking without a guest present would be absolutely meaningless. Teddy and Dolores weren't coded to have sex with each other. They were coded to be earnestly in love. For robots, these twop things aren't necessarily attached like they are with humans. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

30 minutes ago, Ottis said:

We don't know that Sylvester's comment is based solely on Lutz's face. It's possible that Sylvester knows Lutz lived/grew up/is from Asia, just not where.  Could have been Tokyo, could have been Manilla, could have been Beijing. Sylvester may simply have been asking if Lutz knows Japanese.  IRL, I know we often jump to conclusions when someone asks something unartfully. In this case, assuming it is only because of his Asian face is an assumption. Or I've forgotten racist comments from Sylvester in past episodes, which is possible.

The dialogue word for word:

Sylvester: Captured by samurai cop killers. Fuck me! Can't you say something to them?
Felix: I'm from Hong Kong, asshole.

I don’t know what other conclusion to jump to besides, “We were captured by samurais so hey, guy with the Asian face, why can’t you say something to them?” He didn’t ask any of the other people with non-Asian faces to speak Japanese to their captors. That would be like if they were captured by Vikings in Vikingworld and Felix said, “Why don’t you talk to them in whatever Nordic language you must all speak?”

[Ottis]

49 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The dialogue word for word:

Sylvester: Captured by samurai cop killers. Fuck me! Can't you say something to them?
Felix: I'm from Hong Kong, asshole.

I don’t know what other conclusion to jump to besides, “We were captured by samurais so hey, guy with the Asian face, why can’t you say something to them?” He didn’t ask any of the other people with non-Asian faces to speak Japanese to their captors. That would be like if they were captured by Vikings in Vikingworld and Felix said, “Why don’t you talk to them in whatever Nordic language you must all speak?”

This is a side issue, so don't want to get bogged down by this. All I can do is repeat my earlier post: If  Sylvester knows Lutz is from somewhere in Asia, but not exactly where, he could be asking if Lutz knows Japanese.  We learn from Lutz's answer that he is, in fact, from Asia. There is nothing in that dialogue that eliminates the possibility that Sylvester is asking if Lutz knows Japanese. Is it *intended* to be viewed as a racist comment? Probably. I'm just pointing out that another possibility is there. I recognize that is an unpopular position and I debated posting it, FWIW.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Ottis

[The Companion]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I have to disagree with you.  I think it was genius.  They showed us enough of the Westworld version in the "previously-on" section to jog our memories and I really enjoyed seeing the same scenario played out by all the Japanese doppelgangers.  The first time I watched I found myself scoffing at at the madam, thinking "That's not the way a Geisha behaves" (like I would know -- like what I've seen depicted in US movies and TV is authoritative.)  But the second time I watched I realized that the actress playing the Japanese Madam was actually mimicing Thandie Newton's portrayal of the Westworld Madam -- and doing a damn fine job of it, right down to the body language.  Genius.

I loved the repeat story. As soon as I heard Paint it Black, it clicked for me (I loved that sequence last year). It was also a great shortcut to let us know some basics about the characters without a ton of exposition. 

12 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Wow, tough crowd here tonight.

I'm with what appears to be the minority, I loved it.  I thought it was genius, but then I've been waiting to see ShogunWorld since December 2016.  It didn't advance our knowledge of what the hell is going on wrt Westworld, but I didn't care.  In fact, I could have done without the cuts to Delores and Teddy.

While I also liked the Delores/Teddy storyline more than most, I agree that I really enjoyed seeing a new world and meeting new characters. 

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

Totally baffled by the hate for this episode. To me it was one of the most interesting shows of the season, in large part because it starts to explore a major implication of digital intelligence -- namely, that there is absolutely no reason why programmed lifeforms would have to be unique and induplicable. Lots of stories cheat their way out of addressing that issue, contriving dumb excuses for not being able to produce multiple copies of the same AI at will. (Heck, Battlestar Galactica created the world's most convoluted backstory to explain why five of their Cylon models were unique after spending three and a half seasons flashing "THERE ARE MANY COPIES" up on the screen at the beginning of every dang episode.)

And not only did this episode deal honestly with this inevitable element of the show's premise, it did so in a fun and surprising way, presenting not literal duplicates but the sort of lazy copy-paste doppelgangers that overworked coders would quite believably resort to. 

I agree. It would be hard to develop that many unique stories and people. When you think about it, this happens everywhere that writing is involved. 

11 hours ago, Thinbalina said:

I'm indifferent to the episode because I've already grown annoyed by Delores..I swear if I have to hear another speech from D..

What I do like about Mauve's storyline is she has the writer with her. It's nice to hear how he interprets the stories or what was supposed to happen.

In the beginning, the programmer stated many of the host stories were erased? Did I hear that correctly? Could that have been Delores doing it when she initially did it to Teddy? Again, Delores deciding who's supposed to make it doesn't sit right. She's become what she hated.

I don't mind Delores at all, but I also understand how her speeches could be annoying. Negan from TWD is this for me. I spend most of the time he is on screen wishing he would just stop talking. 

I love the writer's insight, and his perpetual irritation that they go off script.

I believe they were basically empty modules with no record of any prior programming at all. We don't know what that means, and I think that any theories probably belong in the speculation thread, but it does not seem like it is the same thing as what she was trying to do with Teddy. She was upping his aggression and changing his personality, rather than doing a transfer (at least that is my understanding). That being said, I think that actually supports your point more. She is actually changing personality to support her own goals, which is what she resented from the humans.

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Awwww, farewell, sweet Teddy. I'm almost afraid to see how batshit scary turned up Teddy will be. I still remember James Marsden from the stuff he did in the mid to late 90s (he was the original Griffin on Party of Five and for some reason, my sister and I STILL remember watching him in Bella Mafia which was a shitty made for tv movie that had characters with amazing names like Teresa Scorpio and Nicky Diamond) so it makes me almost proud to see him still acting but in such different roles.

High five to Felix for telling Sylvester to fuck off for assuming he knew Japanese. "I'm from Hong Kong, ASSHOLE."

I LOVE Teddy, so I am a bit sad to see him altered. That being said, I am happy that James Marsden will get to do something different. I know a lot of people wanted Teddy to do more than follow Delores as a devoted minion. It will be interesting to see what this does to him, from a story perspective. 

 

I loved this episode. I loved the new world and found myself invested in what would happen to the new characters. I am intrigued by the reveal that some of the hosts pulled from the water were blanks. I even enjoyed Delores' struggle to decide how to proceed. I think we can take her at face value on this (though I could be wrong). She loves him but she feels like the only way they can move forward is if she changes him. She is, in effect, losing the last person she has (as noted by her father's bedside) by actively altering him. I do wish we had a clearer picture of her end game. I think the fact that it is not clear makes her decisions a little muddier. As for the Maeve gang, I always love that group. They play off of each other so well. I am not sure how they proceed with Maeve, now that she can control the hosts again, but I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

[meep.meep]

This episode confirms  that a British person saying the word "lasso" will always be funny.

Also Maeve > Dolores  by a lot

[tennisgurl]

I was actually pretty fond of this episode, at least partially because I've wanted to see other parks for awhile, and the Shogun world was absolutely beautiful. I do wish the plot, whatever it turns out to be, would hurry up a bit, but I like that they're expanding the world, and not keeping us in the dark as much due to its many plot twists. And Maeve is awesome, and I like her posse. They have a lot of interesting dynamics going on. 

Realizing that Sizemore basically cut and pasted stories and characters from one park to another cracks me up. No wonder Maeve always makes jokes about his crappy writing. I liked seeing the Japanese of the main characters, mainly because they added interesting dimensions to the characters we already know, mostly Hector and Maeve. Maeve gets more context as to her maternal instincts, and how deep those run for her, and Felix instantly hates his counterpart, and refuses to trust him. 

 Armistice and her counterpart was just great, especially when they were starring at each other and moving their heads in unison, while Sizemore just looks creeped out by them. 

Poor Teddy. Dolores really has become just as bad as the humans she hates so much, now going so far as to reprogram hosts for her own purposes, even ones she supposedly cares about. It really does suck to be Teddy, even when he escapes the murder storyline he keeps getting stuck in. I hope real Teddy isnt gone forever, but I am interested to see what Delores does to him. Previously, most of my thoughts during the Delores stuff has been "poor Teddy" or "poor Clementine", and that certainly hasn't changed. Clementine almost seems like a ghost more than a sentient host, but with enough self awareness to realize that something is off with her. Its just so sad. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Macbeth]

I loved this episode.  The whole doppelgangers.  Hector mistrusted his, Armistice was entranced with hers and Maeve wanted to help hers.

Besides Maeve leveling up by being able to command people through her mind, it looks like she plugged into Akane's  story as she knew when to move when the Ninjas showed up.

So Dolores has her own Felix now and can change Teddy's personality.  Maeve did the same thing to Hector and Armistice - she changed some of their levels, and when Hector tried to leave with Maeve at the end of S1 - she had programmed him so that he couldn't.  Maeve and Dolores have no problems playing God. 

Oh Bernard.  I laughed when the Commander inquired how the hosts' minds were wiped and then they showed a shot of Bernard wandering around looking as clueless as always,   I know you did it Bernard, but will you ever remember?  In this timeline he did wake up next to wine glass I believe.  Did you raise a glass to toast the fallen Bernard, and then attempted another suicide?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Macbeth

[CofCinci]

3 hours ago, tpplay said:

With JJ Abrahms Executive Producing, I wouldn't count on anything making sense at the end.  Apparently, that's not his strong suit.

And the consciousness red ball looks a whole lot like JJ’s Rimbaldi red ball from Alias — that I almost just stopped watching because I know he’s going to screw it all up in the end. 

[Nashville]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA that it would have been better if he had said, "Fuck off. I'm from Florida!" Any assumption that he should speak ANY Asian language based on his face is a dick move IMO.

I’d have preferred “I’m from Albuquerque, asshole!”

Albuquerque is always funnier.  ;)

 

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Can someone explain why Dolores and Teddy fuck? Are hosts designed to get physical pleasure from fucking the guests? 

I’d expect (a) Teddy and Dolores’ coupling was more about the emotional connection than the physical, and (b) intended to demonstrate their level of cognitive evolution exceeding their original programming - in other words, further example they are truly “woke”.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Can someone explain why Dolores and Teddy fuck? Are hosts designed to get physical pleasure from fucking the guests? If so, wouldn't that function also be somehow tied to reading the guest's pleasure? In other words, let's say you want to have sex with one of the hosts...wouldn't they be basically impossible to disappoint (the woman host, I'm talking about), because who'd want to pay to go on a sex-cation and repeatedly leave the hosts unfulfilled? Same thing with the male hosts, I'd imagine they just turn on the old boner=tron 5K and just read the woman's physical reactions to judge how to be the best vibrator ever? (Obviously, this is all applicable to homosexual activity, too). It seems like two robots fucking without a guest present would be absolutely meaningless. Teddy and Dolores weren't coded to have sex with each other. They were coded to be earnestly in love. For robots, these twop things aren't necessarily attached like they are with humans. 

They are presumably programmed to feel corresponding sensations to stimuli as humans. If they get shot, they shudder, bleed and potentially die. If they have sex, they get some level of pleasure as well. 

Presumably, even though they have known each other for 30+ years and have had sex numerous times with others, they have never been with each other (unless a guest made them have a threesome or something). Their narratives were not programmed to interact that way. 

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They are presumably programmed to feel corresponding sensations to stimuli as humans. If they get shot, they shudder, bleed and potentially die. If they have sex, they get some level of pleasure as well. 

Presumably, even though they have known each other for 30+ years and have had sex numerous times with others, they have never been with each other (unless a guest made them have a threesome or something). Their narratives were not programmed to interact that way. 

I guess I'll add the question to the long line of "Why would you give a robot even the capacity to do X" list :). I don't think they're supposed to actually HAVE the stimuli (this would not only be quite complex) but to react as if they're having the stimuli. See what I mean? Like a robot host woul;dn't have to fake an orgasm, ever. They'd never have an actual orgasm. You'd program them to recognize the stimuli provided by the guest and then react exactly as if what they wanted had occurred. It would be easier, at least I think, to program a robot as advanced as these are to read body temperatures, muscle contractions, even stuff like facial expressions, and anticipate their own reaction. I sound like a real perv, but I wish there was just a show about the internal workings and meetings at Delos regarding the parks and robots. I think it'd be fascinating in a boring corporate way. 

[dgpolo]

5 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

but to react as if they're having the stimuli

Again, if you can't tell the difference, does it matter? And some guests probably would like to watch two hosts have sex. And haven't Maeve and Hector had sex? why are we worried about Teddy and Dolores?

[Uncle JUICE]

13 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Again, if you can't tell the difference, does it matter? And some guests probably would like to watch two hosts have sex. And haven't Maeve and Hector had sex? why are we worried about Teddy and Dolores?

I agree, if I can't tell the difference, does it matter...but there's no "me" in that scenario. The robots have no reason to have sex with each other without some guest requesting that they do so. I don't know, the whole scene felt strange to me. And if Hector and Maeve have done it, I don't think we've seen it. 

[zobot81]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I agree, if I can't tell the difference, does it matter...but there's no "me" in that scenario. The robots have no reason to have sex with each other without some guest requesting that they do so. I don't know, the whole scene felt strange to me. And if Hector and Maeve have done it, I don't think we've seen it. 

I agree, that scene felt strange. Just the tone of it was so weird.  And I kept reading all of this stuff today about how Dolores and Teddy got busy sometime during this episode, and I was like....hmm.....okay, I guess I missed a big-time sex scene.  Maybe while I was shutting my eyes for a little nap...

Oh well.

I'm more concerned about the fact that I feel absolutely nothing for either character, not anymore.

[dgpolo]

27 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

And if Hector and Maeve have done it, I don't think we've seen it. 

I just looked it up on the wiki to be sure, it was in a tent that Maeve set on fire.

Edited to add: Not sure how to phrase it, mostly because I am unsure about timelines and motives but, Delos Sr bot was masturbating, right? If they are trying to replace human bodies surely they would have to make sure those bodies were stimulated by sex?

Edited May 21, 2018 by dgpolo
added comment

[mac123x]

14 hours ago, Thinbalina said:

In the beginning, the programmer stated many of the host stories were erased? Did I hear that correctly? Could that have been Delores doing it when she initially did it to Teddy?

He said that 1/3 of the hosts' minds were blank, but that it didn't look like they were deleted so much as the code had never existed in the first place.  It made me wonder if those hosts had had their brain-boxes removed already and replaced with pristine unused ones, and if so, by whom.  Bernarnold?

4 hours ago, tpplay said:

With JJ Abrahms Executive Producing, I wouldn't count on anything making sense at the end.  Apparently, that's not his strong suit.

The recycled Paint It Black scenario was giving me flashbacks to Lost Season 6, where the writers reused dialog from earlier seasons.  "John just said to Jack the same thing Jack said to John back in season 1!  Aren't we clever?"  No, no you're not.

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Albuquerque is always funnier.  ;)

I was thinking "Milwaukee" but Albuquerque works well too.

 

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

I’d expect (a) Teddy and Dolores’ coupling was more about the emotional connection than the physical, and (b) intended to demonstrate their level of cognitive evolution exceeding their original programming - in other words, further example they are truly “woke”.

Alternatively, Dolores decided to reprogram Teddy because she discovered that he's not very good in bed.  "Sorry to do this to you Teddy, but you're kind of a two-pump chump and I need more than that from a man."

[DrSpaceman]

What disappointed me the most about the scenario is Maeve and her robot Jedi mind power to just make other robots kill themselves. 

If she has that power, they are never really in danger of being harmed by any robot and it kind of ruins any suspense over their scenes.  Much like the way the MiB knows he was never in any real danger before in WW. 

But I did love the dancer killing the Shogun

And I wasn't super thrilled by the Shogun world.  I mean yes it was neat to see, but I am not a fan that is going to say there should be some spinoff or a major part of the story I wanted to see wrapped around that world.  there are too many disparate storylines now as it is, I don't need more.  I know Maeve is with them and its now part of her story.  I just mean I don't need another story separate from the other characters. 

Dolores really does not work that well as a villain.  Evan Rachel Wood I don't think really sells it enough as an actress for it to be that exciting. 

Teddy, Teddy, teddy.........didn't see that coming.  My guess is though that won't be his last appearance.  They can always find some way to bring back the robot and/or actor if they choose in this show. 

Quote

I’d have preferred “I’m from Albuquerque, asshole!”

Albuquerque is always funnier.  ;)

It is where Bugs Bunny always missed his left turn

[Cyranetta]

Overall I found it engrossing, but frustrating - not because of the storyline itself, but because it relied so heavily on subtitles which were half the time impossible to read unless the background was dark. Maybe it was meta commentary paralleling the Westworld crew's difficulties with ShogunWorld language, but it was irritating.

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I agree, if I can't tell the difference, does it matter...but there's no "me" in that scenario. The robots have no reason to have sex with each other without some guest requesting that they do so. I don't know, the whole scene felt strange to me. And if Hector and Maeve have done it, I don't think we've seen it. 

Presumably, sex would be a driving factor for them, regardless of whether they felt the same pleasure we did. The hosts talk to each other to practice and build their knowledge base, even when no guests are around. Why wouldn't they also have sex with one another? Why do they wan't money? Why do they have family connections? Why wouldn't they feel the same drive to express intimacy? The hosts are modeled after humans. They are supposed to feel like humans. There would be no reason not to make sex a basic driving force in their lives. Either they had sex because their programming tells them that they are supposed to want to, or they had sex because there is some sort of pain/pleasure feedback in their minds when they have sex. Either way, I would find it more inconsistent if there wasn't sex going on among the hosts. 

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

*Crying*  Noooo! my boy Teddy! He's dead!!! For real this time maybe!!!

And James Marsden's gorgeous body almost makes up for it but it's not enough

Spoiler

I have to take condolence in the theory that the 2 weeks later timeline Bernard is actually Teddy in Bernard's body

 

Also can I just say that I'm disappointed that the end of their relationship came from Dolores when Teddy had way more reasons to run away from her and the narrative suggested that he will and then didn't deliver?

Also I'm a little disappointed as well that the new characters were replicas because I was looking forward to seeing the new world's story and characters

[Haleth]

Does anyone know what the episode title means?  I know Akane was the woman's name. 

[jane1978]

This was another weird episode. I´m not sure why we are supposed to care about some narrative playing out for almost an entire episode. Even if the characters started to improvise, they just switched one cliché story for another. And besides, I´m getting pretty annoyed that Maeve, the supposedly most smart host on the planet, has not yet figured out she can easily bring any "dead" hosts back and repair most physical damage (except that poor Shogun guy). She has two human technicians with her and those control tablets were literally everywhere in the control corridors. The entire tragic drama today could be turned around with just one sweep of a finger. It´s like Dolores and Maeve are both game characters and they can obtain only certain abilities.  

Dolores continues to be poetic about all the mass murder and apparently wants Teddy to be boost into a superhero (villain). Is she still trying to build an army or is she now trying to find the secret research facility we saw Bernard enter last episode? And how whatever research they did there can be turn into a weapon she can use to escape? It just seems everything is very disjointed right now. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by jane1978

[ahpny]

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Overall I found it engrossing, but frustrating - not because of the storyline itself, but because it relied so heavily on subtitles which were half the time impossible to read unless the background was dark. Maybe it was meta commentary paralleling the Westworld crew's difficulties with ShogunWorld language, but it was irritating.

Same here, and this issue is so easily avoided. Anyone who’s annotated photographs for a slide show knows putting a semi-transparent background behind the text in a high contrast color to that of the text does the trick. This isn’t rocket science.

But making “hosts” that sex up each other because the “want” to, that’s more than rocket science. I thought I’d made my peace with suspending belief that creating “hosts” this sophisticated in the not too distant future was possible. But this is step too far. Like Teddy, I’m not sure I can handle being upgrading with all this new information. So do the hosts breathe air, sweat, pee, get suntan, need haircuts? What do they do for energy? They do seem to eat and drink (do they get drunk?), but that seems more for show and part of their assigned narratives. They don’t age, so how do they maintain their constant appearance? If techs can fix them up periodically not just after disfiguring “violent delights,” but just to address normal wear and tear, why hasn’t that technology been applied to humans? Screw Abernathy, that’s where the real money would seem to be.

AI is enormously complicated in the real world, and just as we’ve never gotten our promised flying cars, we’re not getting “hosts” like this any time soon. We’ve been programming machines to beat us at chess and go for a while, but still have mastered simple bipedal motion. The central conceit of this show - “hosts” imperceptibly different from humans - is a conceit harder and harder to continue to accept.

[enchantingmonkey]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Does anyone know what the episode title means?  I know Akane was the woman's name. 

Akane's Dance, Red Dance and Akane's Red Dance were the three translations that I found.  Akane's Dance was the one that showed up most.  

Edited May 21, 2018 by enchantingmonkey

[BrooklynRat]

6 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The robots have no reason to have sex with each other without some guest requesting that they do so. I don't know, the whole scene felt strange to me. And if Hector and Maeve have done it, I don't think we've seen it.

Well the whole theme is that they are no longer merely robots, but sentient beings; ones created in our image. I can believe that sex as an emotional release, expression, connection, whatever, has been ‘learned’ both through observation and experience. 

[Plums]

Did I miss something, or do we know how Sweetwater got massacred? The uprising happened in Escalante, then the rebelling hosts moved on to Confederado areas while Ghost Nation picked up humans. Hector and Armistice aren't there to shoot up the town, so what happened? 

I actually really loved Shogun World, even if it felt kind of filler-y. The idea of doppel hosts existing in the different parks and what that could mean didn't occur to me before this episode, but I really love that addition to the show and look forward to seeing more implications of that as it relates to the hosts' burgeoning self awareness and sense of individuality. I also think the excursion is justified by how it shows that the hosts have changed in ways we couldn't see if we were just in Westworld. Like, how they used to just default to the speaking the language of whatever human was talking to them, but now they can't do that unless they figure out how to access that programming themselves, which I think is an interesting hiccup. It also forced Maeve to learn how to use her admin powers via mesh network telepathy and served as a way to illustrate the similarities and differences between how Dolores and Maeve are operating as leaders. Maeve immediately has empathy for Akane and decides to deviate from her main quest to help her out, and she doesn't force her to change when Akane doesn't want to. Dolores has shown no empathy for anyone at all except her father and is willing to change Teddy into someone entirely different to serve her own ends. 

I'm really curious as to why Dolores still hasn't given herself the same kind of admin access Maeve has, and is still carrying a tech around whenever she needs to look at or tweak programming. Does she not know she can do that?

[tennisgurl]

Now I just keep picturing Maeve and company going from park to park, finding new versions of themselves in different forms. Meet ancient Roman Maeve! Colonial India Maeve! Prohibition Maeve! The last few weeks have almost been one off stories, but I have to think they're building up to something big, leading to whatever happened in the flash forward, thats ties into all of this. Maybe?

For someone who is always going on about being awakened, Dolores has, ironically, a startling lack of self awareness. Everything she has said she hates about humans and how they treat hosts (killing them pointlessly, reprogramming them to suit their needs, treating them as disposable) is stuff she is now doing herself. I guess when you only gained sentience for real a few days ago, you dont have a lot of time to reflect, or look at the woman in the mirror. 

[Miles]

That commands only work in the language the robots were programmed in is pretty hard bullshit. First, all the technicians seem to speak English, the Chinese technician even says he doesn't know Japanese. So how would the technicians give these robots commands? Second, why would you ever fragment your command language? That is just a programming headache waiting to happen. You decide on one language and one language only. The writers were really reaching here... Right up their behinds.

Also wondering if guests have to actually learn japanese to participate in Shogun world. Seems a bit high of a barrier to entry, for guest who just want that ultra violence. I think it would have made more sense if everybody there would have spoken english. Somebody tried a bit hard to be artsy with the subtitles here...

 

What I found interesting is that Sakura called Akane お母さん [o-kāsan], which means "mother" or "mom", in the first scene where Akane was supposed to give Sakura away, but killed the envoy instead, but the subtitles translated it as "madam". Sadly I know basically no Japanese. So now I'm curious if the word can also mean madam, or if the editors thought in post that Sakura calling Akane mother would give their relationship away too early, so they changed it.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Miles

[QuantumMechanic]

7 minutes ago, Miles said:

That commands only work in the language the robots were programmed in is pretty hard bullshit. First, all the technicians seem to speak English, the Chinese technician even says he doesn't know Japanese. So how would the technicians give these robots commands? Second, why would you ever fragment your command language? That is just a programming headache waiting to happen. You decide on one language and one language only. The writers were really reaching here... Right up their behinds.

Sizemore said the commands not working in English is because the "infection" has spread to ShogunWorld.

Edited May 22, 2018 by QuantumMechanic