Social And Race Issues In Black-Ish

[PRgal]

I'm an outsider looking in (Chinese descent) and have only seen the pilot/first episode.  Based on what I saw, a lot of it isn't really a "black" or "race" thing, but a socio-economic class thing.  Andre grew up poor (from the sounds of it) and has since become upper middle class.  This is not that different from my family and many of his peers (my dad grew up in post-WWII Hong Kong and his family shared an apartment with at least two other families/boarders).  However, I grew up in a suburban home in Canada where I had a bike, piano lessons, went to camp, Brownies, etc, etc...  I went to Chinese school for a bit and was taught my heritage, but my dad's more disadvantaged upbringing was never really touched upon as part of my "heritage."  True "heritage" came from folk tales, songs/nursery rhymes (which my parents mixed with western ones - they really tried their best to ensure that I wasn't too "different" once I started school.  I also took char siu (Chinese style roast pork) and soy sauce roast chicken sandwiches to school rather than full out "immigrant" food (which, to be honest, doesn't taste good cold, anyway)), language and food.  Andre, on the other hand, seems to equate being black with his less advantaged upbringing.  It's funny to see these differences of course - without it, you won't have a show.  But it's good to note the class situation - and from the older generation's perspective (we too often see the kids' perspectives in movies like My Big Fat Greek Wedding or Bend it like Beckham). 

ETA: A reply up noted that Italians are seen as "white."  Sure, but they are also still "ethnic" and even today, often have their own "identity" that isn't WASP - especially in cities like New York.  Same with Jews.

Edited October 15, 2014 by PRgal

[LJonEarth]

ETA: A reply up noted that Italians are seen as "white."  Sure, but they are also still "ethnic" and even today, often have their own "identity" that isn't WASP - especially in cities like New York.  Same with Jews.

 

I don't know how to say this correctly, but for anything that "matters" they're white. Due to wonderfully sweet and ignorant friends in college, I wound up being having access to a white sorority/fraternity system website. I used to read it like you would watch a horror movie. The rule for the acceptable people was that everyone counted as white except blacks. Anyone with Middle Eastern heritage and International students probably would have been out too, but that wasn't much of an issue back then.

 

A lot of this has to do with how you are perceived. Italian, Jewish, Asian and Armenian people, etc. just aren't seen as a threat or less than in the same way that black and sometimes brown people are. No matter what cultural traditions they do at home, they can "pass" in streets and in the workplace.

 

And I find it hard to believe that Andre Jr. has never been part of that struggle, even in--or especially in--his private and I'm assuming progressive high school. Especially if he's one of the only African-American kids at his school. Multiple sociological studies show that teachers initially have lower academic expectations of black and Latino children, regardless of socioeconomic status. Meaning that when Andre walks into a class on the first day of school, his teachers are likely to assume that he will not perform as well other children in the class. Andre has skipped a grade in school, so we know he's smart. He'll quickly dispel a teacher's negative assumptions. But he still would've had to deal with those initial assumptions and would have had the burden of "proving" to his teachers that he's academically competent. Children of most other races don't begin the school year with that burden of proof.

 

I spent half of my schooling in a white private school. I know quite a few black people who were in elementary school while I was in high school who would never have experienced any kind of struggle until they hit college, and maybe not even in college since they all seem to have gone to college with the people they grew up with. They were literally born into the school, they've had the same friends for 25+ years, their teachers knew them since they were in pre-school, so they wouldn't have experienced this bias.

 

My teenage cousins, attend a diverse public school, I can tell that they and their friends (of all races) just don't run into some of the issues with race that the past generations do. They know enough to know that they may encounter racist people out in the real world. But they aren't in the real world. Right now, the world they're in treats them fairly, so it's not an issue that they ever really need to consider or articulate.

 

I really can't get too upset about a sheltered, immature child not being able to fully comprehend something they've never had to experience outside of just hearing about it.

 

I'm just tired of wanna be exceptional black folks thinking they're the only ones who are proficient at SAE. We get it, you (general) like to read. Guess what? So do a lot of us. Some of us even have graduate degrees and speak SAE perfectly and still have never been mistaken for white or told we talk or act white. So please spare me the YouTube diatribes furthering this stupid myth that black people mock intelligence because it just ain't true.

 

I have too many black friends like myself, who experienced the exact same mocking from other black kids to say that it's a myth. The YouTube diatribes come from real experiences. If there are people who never did it or who never experienced it, they're lucky. It sucked to feel less-than with black people and less than with white people, just from being the person you are. But it is very true that some black people mock some other black people's educational success.

 

ETA: The mocking for me at least was from teens and young adults. Kids are dumb. It happens. Although I have a 50-something year old relative who still uses "oh you guys got your degree like them rich white people" as a go-to insult.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JinNashville

[ridethemaverick]

I don't know how to say this correctly, but for anything that "matters" they're white. Due to wonderfully sweet and ignorant friends in college, I wound up being having access to a white sorority/fraternity system website. I used to read it like you would watch a horror movie. The rule for the acceptable people was that everyone counted as white except blacks. Anyone with Middle Eastern heritage and International students probably would have been out too, but that wasn't much of an issue back then.

A lot of this has to do with how you are perceived. Italian, Jewish, Asian and Armenian people, etc. just aren't seen as a threat or less than in the same way that black and sometimes brown people are. No matter what cultural traditions they do at home, they can "pass" in streets and in the workplace.

I spent half of my schooling in a white private school. I know quite a few black people who were in elementary school while I was in high school who would never have experienced any kind of struggle until they hit college, and maybe not even in college since they all seem to have gone to college with the people they grew up with. They were literally born into the school, they've had the same friends for 25+ years, their teachers knew them since they were in pre-school, so they wouldn't have experienced this bias.

My teenage cousins, attend a diverse public school, I can tell that they and their friends (of all races) just don't run into some of the issues with race that the past generations do. They know enough to know that they may encounter racist people out in the real world. But they aren't in the real world. Right now, the world they're in treats them fairly, so it's not an issue that they ever really need to consider or articulate.

I really can't get too upset about a sheltered, immature child not being able to fully comprehend something they've never had to experience outside of just hearing about it.

I have too many black friends like myself, who experienced the exact same mocking from other black kids to say that it's a myth. The YouTube diatribes come from real experiences. If there are people who never did it or who never experienced it, they're lucky. It sucked to feel less-than with black people and less than with white people, just from being the person you are. But it is very true that some black people mock some other black people's educational success.

ETA: The mocking for me at least was from teens and young adults. Kids are dumb. It happens. Although I have a 50-something year old relative who still uses "oh you guys got your degree like them rich white people" as a go-to insult.

I'm not saying the mocking doesn't happen. The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence. When minorities (all minorities do this, not just black folks) mock their peers for talking/acting white, they are criticizing that person for distancing themselves from their community. Because they are kids, they can't articulate the nuances so they insult you broadly. It's not your educational success or proficiency at speaking standard English that is the issue, it's that you have separated yourself from them (go to white schools/have class with the white kids) and don't know how to code switch.

I'm fine with people speaking about the pain of being mocked. I just wish people would talk about the REAL issue. Adults should be able to pick up on the nuances.

[LJonEarth]

I'm not saying the mocking doesn't happen. The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence. When minorities (all minorities do this, not just black folks) mock their peers for talking/acting white, they are criticizing that person for distancing themselves from their community. Because they are kids, they can't articulate the nuances so they insult you broadly. It's not your educational success or proficiency at speaking standard English that is the issue, it's that you have separated yourself from them (go to white schools/have class with the white kids) and don't know how to code switch.

I'm fine with people speaking about the pain of being mocked. I just wish people would talk about the REAL issue. Adults should be able to pick up on the nuances.

 

Ah, thank you for clarifying. I had something similar written, but erased part of it because I'd gone way past TL;DR.

[PRgal]

I'm not saying the mocking doesn't happen. The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence. When minorities (all minorities do this, not just black folks) mock their peers for talking/acting white, they are criticizing that person for distancing themselves from their community. Because they are kids, they can't articulate the nuances so they insult you broadly. It's not your educational success or proficiency at speaking standard English that is the issue, it's that you have separated yourself from them (go to white schools/have class with the white kids) and don't know how to code switch.

I'm fine with people speaking about the pain of being mocked. I just wish people would talk about the REAL issue. Adults should be able to pick up on the nuances.

 

Then it isn't just a "minority" thing (which I take it as "non-white"), but immigrant/non-WASP, period.  This criticism from the older generation happens to children of European immigrants as well. 

 

Why do (non-immigrant) black people mock intelligence?  Why not mock, say, food (Chinese immigrants do that..."Chicken feet?  She'll never eat that.  She's jook sing ("hollow bamboo" or not one (Chinese) or the other (WASP))!  At least food is more about one's palate, which can be "different."  I mean, I like kale on pizza). And how common is it for the kids to mock their parents?  The FOB (Fresh off the Boat (or immigrant)) thing is common in (many) Asian communities.

Edited October 20, 2014 by PRgal

[Mozelle]

Then it isn't just a "minority" thing (which I take it as "non-white"), but immigrant/non-WASP, period.  This criticism from the older generation happens to children of European immigrants as well. 

 

Why do (non-immigrant) black people mock intelligence?  Why not mock, say, food (Chinese immigrants do that..."Chicken feet?  She'll never eat that.  She's jook sing ("hollow bamboo" or not one (Chinese) or the other (WASP))!  At least food is more about one's palate, which can be "different."  I mean, I like kale on pizza). And how common is it for the kids to mock their parents?  The FOB (Fresh off the Boat (or immigrant)) thing is common in (many) Asian communities.

 

I ride with ridethemaverick on this when she calls the bolded thought a myth. This question doesn't make much sense to me because it's a not a "black people mock intelligence" issue. Many an '80s teen movie has been made dealing with teens being teased for being nerds and having their heads in the books. That's universal as one of the wells that people, regardless of ethnicity, go to. 

[ridethemaverick]

Then it isn't just a "minority" thing (which I take it as "non-white"), but immigrant/non-WASP, period. This criticism from the older generation happens to children of European immigrants as well.

Why do (non-immigrant) black people mock intelligence? Why not mock, say, food (Chinese immigrants do that..."Chicken feet? She'll never eat that. She's jook sing ("hollow bamboo" or not one (Chinese) or the other (WASP))! At least food is more about one's palate, which can be "different." I mean, I like kale on pizza). And how common is it for the kids to mock their parents? The FOB (Fresh off the Boat (or immigrant)) thing is common in (many) Asian communities.

Again, black kids DO NOT mock intelligence. That is a myth. They mock what they perceive to be their peers separating themselves. This mainly happens in predominately white schools where high achieving black children are separated from their average peers. Those kids spend far more time with white kids and get labelled for that. You won't see this in predominately black schools beyond maybe some "nerd" teasing which occurs across race among American students.

[C0mputerGeek]

I'm not saying the mocking doesn't happen. The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence. When minorities (all minorities do this, not just black folks) mock their peers for talking/acting white, they are criticizing that person for distancing themselves from their community. 

Who ran these studies and with whom did they speak? I have been put down by black/white/brown/whatever for being "educated" and "uppity" more than once. In fact, one of the teachers in my high school had something rather not positive to say about my going away to college.

 

I find it so fascinating when people study black people and tell me how my own experiences are/are not valid.

[Mozelle]

I don't think that's what studies do, though. They typically look at a group as a whole and find repeating patterns. It doesn't mean that if your experience doesn't fall within that repeating pattern your experience is invalid. My male cousin has been lucky enough not to have ever been stopped and frisked (and he's a black man living in L.A.). It also doesn't mean that he gets to be all, "Well, I've never been stopped and frisked, so..."

 

I'm always linking something or quoting something, so why stop now? *grin* Jamelle Bouie had something earlier this month in Slate appropriately titled "Talking White." Here are some choice excerpts:

 

In interviews, white students describe ostracism from peers and apprehension from parents who want to avoid the perception of “elitism” that comes with children in gifted programs.

 

Again, none of this is to deny the reality of racialized ridiculing. It happens—I've experienced it—and it’s painful. But it isn’t a feature of black culture. Rather, it arises from a mix of factors, from social status to the composition of the school itself. As the sociologists note in their conclusion, stigmatization for whites and blacks seemed to come from the “perception that the low-status student was attempting to assume the characteristic of the ‘other,’ especially an air of superiority or arrogance.”

 

 

He goes on to circle back to the Facebook video that went viral of the girl getting upset about "talking white" and the like and adds:

 

If her peers have mocked her for “talking white,” it might have less to do with her use of Standard English overall and more to do with its use in an unusual setting. Remember, for many Americans, Standard English is only used in formal settings—business and school, but not home. By forgoing the vernacular in informal speech, she might come across as elitist, in the same way it might seem pretentious to purposefully use professional jargon when talking with a nonspecialist.

 

In other words, she isn’t being mocked for the English as much as she is for her refusal to code-switch and use informal language for an informal conversation. That might be unfair—let’s say you can’t actually speak the vernacular!—but it’s not evidence of pathology.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Mozelle

[ribboninthesky1]

Thanks for sharing the link to that article, Mozelle. I agree, studies aren't designed to capture all experiences - more to identify trends and, in this context, macrobehavior. Studies don't invalidate individual experiences.

 

I noted this as well:

 

Across schools, the general pattern was this: “Acting white” accusations weren’t attached to academic performance and rather were a function of specific behaviors. If you hung out with white kids and adopted white fashions, you were accused of “acting white.” Smart kids were teased, but no more than you’d see in any other group.

 

In my childhood, I was often one of the few black kids in "advanced" classes.  But I primarily socialized with other blacks - often during class, outside of class, and outside of the school environment.  I got along fine with my white (and few non-black) classmates, but we weren't friends.  We didn't hang out together outside of class or school events.  The black kids who were accused of "acting white" were almost always the ones who primarily socialized and identified with their white classmates.  I'm not saying that was right, but it goes back to ridethemaverick's point of kids (and hell, even some adults) not understanding the nuances of social development.

 

In my experience, there was never any ostracizing of black kids from the overall group solely due to academic achievement.  Yes, there was the teasing, but most of the time, it was a source of pride (i.e. being smart wasn't just a "white" thing). 

[C0mputerGeek]

If the point of the study is to find repeating patterns, then the comment that, "The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence," is completely inaccurate, no? Both you and ridethemaverick stated this is a proven myth. Now you are trying to say that it is a repeating pattern?

 

In my experience, there was never any ostracizing of black kids from the overall group solely due to academic achievement.  Yes, there was the teasing, but most of the time, it was a source of pride (i.e. being smart wasn't just a "white" thing). 

Then my experience would be different from yours and thus not a "myth."

[BoogieBurns]

What other social/race issues do you want to see on this show?

 

Mine for sure is the natural hair discussion. Especially since Bow and Zoe are rocking natural hair. (Diane's has been in a bun, so I don't know what her hair looks like.) 

[Mozelle]

If the point of the study is to find repeating patterns, then the comment that, "The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence," is completely inaccurate, no? Both you and ridethemaverick stated this is a proven myth. Now you are trying to say that it is a repeating pattern?

 

Then my experience would be different from yours and thus not a "myth."

 

Well, you made a statement about how these studies invalidated your experience. My response was that studies look at repeating patterns, on the macro level, as ribbon pointed out. It doesn't mean that on a case-by-case basis your experience is going to mirror that. On the macro level, it is a myth that there's some sort of black cultural bias that classifies speaking properly as "talking white." Just like Jamelle Bouie said:

 

Again, none of this is to deny the reality of racialized ridiculing. It happens—I've experienced it—and it’s painful. But it isn’t a feature of black culture.

 

"It isn't a feature of black culture" is the crux of the issue. That's what I was getting at, and it's pretty much what you wrote earlier when you shared that:

 

I have been put down by black/white/brown/whatever for being "educated" and "uppity" more than once.

 

Which, interestingly enough, Jamelle also addressed in the excerpt I quoted.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Mozelle

[ridethemaverick]

If the point of the study is to find repeating patterns, then the comment that, "The myth, which has been proven to be a myth by several studies, is that black people mock intelligence," is completely inaccurate, no? Both you and ridethemaverick stated this is a proven myth. Now you are trying to say that it is a repeating pattern?

Then my experience would be different from yours and thus not a "myth."

Anecdotes are not data. Your one experience does not prove black people as a group mock intelligence. If what you say is true (that you were truly ridiculed for being smart), I'd consider you an outlier. I suspect it's more nuanced than that but eh, I wasn't there.

Thank you Mozelle.

[Kromm]

I don't know how to say this correctly, but for anything that "matters" they're white. 

This is ONLY true when they conform.

 

Take the Jews--since this is one of the easier examples to illustrate.

 

When they look like this, they're easy to pick out and punish for what they are.

 

 

It's when they started appearing like this that it didn't happen the same. (I'm using this picture of someone mixed-ethnicity on purpose, because the point isn't just that he's not "jewey" in how he's dressed, but also that the Jews started interbreeding with the non-Jews)

 

[Rinaldo]

What other social/race issues do you want to see on this show?

I think they could do a funny, insightful job with the idea of swimming lessons for the family, for safety's sake. The show is perfectly poised to give us a three-generations point of view with no preachiness: Pops saying "that's just not something we're good at," the kids and Bow being all for it (or maybe one of them already swims or is on a team), and Dre absolutely in favor of the idea in theory while feeling conflicted because he never learned and still has unwanted vestiges of his father's attitude.

[ribboninthesky1]

What other social/race issues do you want to see on this show?

 

Mine for sure is the natural hair discussion. Especially since Bow and Zoe are rocking natural hair. (Diane's has been in a bun, so I don't know what her hair looks like.) 

 

Diane's hair looks pressed to me, but it will be interesting if they address it.  The natural hair discussion could be funny and insightful, though I wonder if they'll acknowledge that Bow being biracial and embracing her natural hair is often very different from someone with two black parents, and therefore a different texture, embracing their hair.  It's one of the things I thought was interesting in Bow's response to Dre's "you're not really black" comment.  It was something like, "tell my hair and ass that" and I thought, "I'll give you the ass, but the hair...eh, not necessarily."

 

But mostly, I'm just grateful that the biracial actress is actually playing a biracial character. I'd like to meet Bow's parents.  My assumption is that her dad is black, and mom is white (or at least non-black). I'd like to know if my assumption is correct or wrong.    

Edited October 25, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[mojito]

 

Diane's hair looks pressed to me, but it will be interesting if they address it.

Which would be another aspect of a family swimming show. You know, teach America the expression of wet pressed hair "going back". Always loved that expression.

 

Also the question of bone density/center of gravity/center of buoyancy as factors in swimming. Some people take strokes and glide across the water and others would sink if they didn't keep moving. The athletic Andre could be bummed that despite knowing how to swim, he has to take 3 strokes to Bow's 1. (Speaking from experience here....) There can be a racial component in the science of swimming.

 

It was something like, "tell my hair and ass that" and I thought, "I'll give you the ass, but the hair...eh, not necessarily."

Tee-hee. Of course, when you consider that women always seem to want someone else's hair, I'm sure Bow would have had her moments of wishing her hair was straighter.

 

 

Andre, on the other hand, seems to equate being black with his less advantaged upbringing.

PRgal, black Americans don't have a history like you do. We know nothing about our African roots (we aren't even sure of our country of origin), we don't even know of our American roots because of families being broken up and sold. So all we have to go on is our experience in the 149 years since emancipation. Those were not the best of years. We don't have many upbeat, magical tales and songs to fall back on. What Dre's trying to hold onto is the struggles he and his family have known. For him, it's all he has. For some of us, we're okay with not holding onto that stuff.

 

Edit: 149 years since the end of the Civil War.

Edited October 27, 2014 by mojito

[Empress1]

Is the eldest daughter's hair natural?

I was just talking with a friend who wears her hair natural (as do I). Her stepdaughter started wearing her hair in an Afro and her mother and grandmothers are not supportive (one grandmother says she looks like a lesbian). It would be interesting to have the show tackle that.

As sort of a subset, I'd like to see them address the use of the term "good hair," because it's alive and well.

[BoogieBurns]

Is the eldest daughter's hair natural?

 

The girl who plays her, Yara Shahidi, wears her hair natural. I guess the question would be if the character Zoey is in the same boat. The actress is half Iranian, although her hair looks a lot like Tracee Ellis Ross'. 

[ribboninthesky1]

Tee-hee. Of course, when you consider that women always seem to want someone else's hair, I'm sure Bow would have had her moments of wishing her hair was straighter.

 

As sort of a subset, I'd like to see them address the use of the term "good hair," because it's alive and well.

 

This makes me wonder how Bow grew up - if she was surrounded by primarily blacks, I guarantee she would have have received the good hair "compliment." If she grew up around primarily whites or non-blacks, I could see her possibly having a complex about her hair. As much as I'd like to see these issues explored, I have to admit that I'm not optimistic about it.  The show is centered around Andre.  Then again, there are several episodes to go, so it's possible that we'll get more from Bow and her background. 

 

PRgal, black Americans don't have a history like you do. We know nothing about our African roots (we aren't even sure of our country of origin), we don't even know of our American roots because of families being broken up and sold. So all we have to go on is our experience in the 149 years since emancipation. Those were not the best of years. We don't have many upbeat, magical tales and songs to fall back on. What Dre's trying to hold onto is the struggles he and his family have known. For him, it's all he has. For some of us, we're okay with not holding onto that stuff.

 

One thing I can relate to is the internal struggle of being the "in-between" generation (Gen X?): knowing enough about what happened and how family lived before and during the civil rights movement, coming of age in "integrated" school environments yet, outside of that, still de facto segregation and the soft bigotry of low expectations, increased opportunity for post-secondary education, living a higher quality life than your parents, possibly other family members, and the cognitive dissonance of black pride while eschewing some traditions. It's a tight-rope, and I think somewhat distinctive from immigrant (even black immigrant) or 1st generation experiences, especially because many black Americans don't have a "home" country to call back to. The United States, for better or worse, IS our home country.  

[mojito]

 

This makes me wonder how Bow grew up - if she was surrounded by primarily blacks, I guarantee she would have have received the good hair "compliment."

I got that compliment, too, but still would've liked to have had "gooder" hair!

[Trini]

mojito said:

Also the question of bone density/center of gravity/center of buoyancy as factors in swimming. Some people take strokes and glide across the water and others would sink if they didn't keep moving. The athletic Andre could be bummed that despite knowing how to swim, he has to take 3 strokes to Bow's 1. (Speaking from experience here....) There can be a racial component in the science of swimming.

Are you serious? Has someone actually linked race to swimming ability?(/the factors you mentioned?)

Edited October 27, 2014 by Trini

[Kromm]

Are you serious? Has someone actually linked race to swimming ability?(/the factors you mentioned?)

Personally, I don't find the idea impossible, even if the concept of someone thinking this had to be scientifically investigated seems pretty offensive. I suppose if it's linked to some study of swimming as a survival skill that's one thing, but if it's more like "why are black people faster and taller" and that whole rabbit hole of generalizations (which often is used to cast them as less intelligent), then... ick. Edited October 27, 2014 by Kromm

[Empress1]

I got that compliment, too, but still would've liked to have had "gooder" hair!

The hairdresser working at the chair next to the guy who did my big chop said it to me. "I wasn't sure what it would look like when you said you wanted to cut it all off, but you got good hair, it's okay." I was like, um, what? Thanks? And this was seven years ago, so pretty recent. I have had many people make comments akin to "well, it's ok that your wear your hair natural, it's 'good.'" I even feel weird saying that, because people have interpreted it as bragging. As far as I'm concerned, "bad hair" is that shit in the spray can, or this INSANELY OBVIOUS toupee one of my (white) coworkers used to wear.

It would be interesting to come at the debate from the other side, if one of the kids wanted a relaxer (Andre used to have one - Bow found it in the garage!).

[Mozelle]

The "good" hair issue is still very interesting. I've heard it been likened to the new brown paper bag test when you're talking the new natural hair renaissance.

My last relaxer was almost four years ago, and when I made the decision that I'd no longer relax my hair, I was all up and through YouTube looking for tips on styles and products. A lot of popular YouTubers at the time I started researching were the girls with looser curls (e.g., those with hair like TER and Yara Shahidi). It still is the case.

I'm now reminded of that moment on Girlfriends when Toni's mom made a statement about Toni and Todd having good-haired babies.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Mozelle

[Driad]

 

About swimming -- here's a New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/11/opinion/water-damage-more-blacks-lack-swimming-skills.html?_r=0

 

Excerpt: "A 2010 study by the USA Swimming Foundation and the University of Memphis reported that nearly 70 percent of African-American children do not know how to swim. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, African-American children between the ages of 5 and 14 are almost three times more likely to drown than white children."

[Kromm]

 

 

About swimming -- here's a New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/11/opinion/water-damage-more-blacks-lack-swimming-skills.html?_r=0

 

Excerpt: "A 2010 study by the USA Swimming Foundation and the University of Memphis reported that nearly 70 percent of African-American children do not know how to swim. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, African-American children between the ages of 5 and 14 are almost three times more likely to drown than white children."

 

I believe the study, but I think the cause is socio-economic.  Swimming pools, even community pools, are expensive.  Urban areas have far less of them.  While we can't generalize that African-Americans = Urban, it accounts for a big part of that figure. Summer camps are another route to learning swimming.  Less African-Americans go to summer camps.  And there's likely a knock-on effect to some degree.  Being told that swimming isn't a "black thing" likely has a generational effect on interest in it.  It was like that with Tennis before a lot of prominent African-American tennis players popped up.

[Mozelle]

I think the cause is socioeconomic as well for the reason you stated, Kromm. If there is less access to pools the chances are that a black person will likely not learn to swim. (And yes, I know that not all black people live in areas with fewer resources, but plenty do.)

I only learned to swim at seven because of my summer weeks spent at an LA Boys and Girls Club where we went to a neighborhood pool on a weekly basis.

[Rinaldo]

Well, that ongoing discussion and investigation is why I thought it would be a good topic for the show to take on. Judging from what black friends have told me, there's likely to be disagreement even within a family, with all sides maintaining that there's scientific evidence supporting their point of view. And even where the socioeconomic argument no longer applies, as with the Johnson family, old parental (and grandparental) feelings don't instantly change. Or so it seems to me.

[BoogieBurns]

You can also see that the Johnson's have a pool, in the second episode when Junior talks about Helen Mirren. I would say the topic of swimming will definitely be explored. 

[Jade Foxx]

Here's an article which highlights *some* physical differences between swimmers and runners.

 

In the record books, the swiftest sprinters tend to be of West African ancestry and the faster swimmers tend to be white.

[mojito]

You can look at this link. When it is suggested that that body build is a factor in the ability to swim well, most people don't have a problem. When you then talk about racial groups and their tendency towards certain body builds, people start getting bent out of shape. Bone density/muscle density vs fat and center of gravity/center of buoyancy are factors in floating. This is why I suggest it as a topic for the show.

 

I was looking at the older girl's hair on the show. I think she would have an issue with her hair "going back" if she were thrown in a pool. Not back, back, but back enough to ruin her 'do.

Edited October 28, 2014 by mojito

[ribboninthesky1]

Are you serious? Has someone actually linked race to swimming ability?(/the factors you mentioned?)

 

I have to be honest - I'd never heard about the "blacks don't/can't swim" thing until I started reading online forums several years ago.  I grew up working class in the deep South, and socialized with kids from "da hood," yet it was rather standard for black kids to swim.  It gets hot as hell in SW Georgia, and you best believe we were trying to find a pool to play and keep cool in during the summer.  I also attended a HBCU in Atlanta in the late 90s, and again, never heard about this.  There was (and is) a running joke about black women not wanting to get our hair wet (which is another way to introduce black women's attitudes about hair into the show).  But as kids, when you're not as self-conscious about that? The girls were right there in the water.  I'm also curious if this myth (yep, that's what I'm calling it) persists among blacks with Caribbean roots?

 

I'm almost always skeptical of studies (especially singular ones) that encourage a negative perception about minorities in the US.  Especially when I read obscure stats like "nearly 70% of African American children and nearly 60% of Hispanic children have low or no swim ability, compared to 40% of Caucasians." I read the 2010 study linked above, which was a follow-up to a 2008 study.  Nothing about the study convinced me that this was a common experience among the overall black population - maybe inner city blacks, but most blacks aren't from the inner city.  But if there is some additional, peer-reviewed research I'm missing that replicates the results of that study, I'll gladly read it.

 

I'm not opposed to the hypothesis that there is a physiological component, but I don't think the research is there.  Blacks not having a strong presence in Olympic or professional swimming doesn't mean that blacks in general don't or can't swim, especially since I suspect the under-representation is due to cultural barriers, much like sports such as tennis or gymnastics or golf were (and still are, though less so now).             

 

In any case, I've never believed the myth, but if the show explores it, it'll be interesting to see what angle they take.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[Trini]

 

I'm also curious if this myth (yep, that's what I'm calling it) persists among blacks with Caribbean roots?

Nope, says this person Trinidadian heritage. We're from the islands, as in, surrounded by water!

Edited October 29, 2014 by Trini

[Trini]

You can look at this link. When it is suggested that that body build is a factor in the ability to swim well, most people don't have a problem. When you then talk about racial groups and their tendency towards certain body builds, people start getting bent out of shape. Bone density/muscle density vs fat and center of gravity/center of buoyancy are factors in floating. This is why I suggest it as a topic for the show.

Okay, thanks. When you first mentioned a "racial component" I was worried; body builds make a lot more sense.

[BoogieBurns]

I also attended a HBCU in Atlanta in the late 90s, and again, never heard about this.  There was (and is) a running joke about black women not wanting to get our hair wet

 

Did you have a lot of pool parties in college? I went to an HBCU as well, and pool parties never involved anyone getting in the pool. Maybe a couple of guys would jump in. But usually people didn't even dress in swimsuits because a pool party wasn't for swimming. I always wanted to swim, but then I'd be that girl at the party. I like swimming a lot more than I like my hairstyle.

[mojito]

Not pool parties in college, but beach gatherings (I was in the Caribbean). Back then, most women wore their hair natural.

 

Something I remember, and I think this was with Stateside, not West Indian women, was the unwillingness to go pools or beaches because they didn't want to get DARKER.

 

Trini, I'm glad you caught my drift. I was trying to carefully word what I wrote to avoid being jumped on for saying that black people can't swim, the fate, no doubt, of others who have tried to put forth theories on physiques and the physics of swimming. I had a friend who was a lifeguard, but he could not float.

 

The Netherlands had a black female swimmer swim for them a couple Olympics back. She was from one of the ABC islands. I think it was Aruba.

[PRgal]

I suspect the under-representation is due to cultural barriers, much like sports such as tennis or gymnastics or golf were (and still are, though less so now).             

 

In any case, I've never believed the myth, but if the show explores it, it'll be interesting to see what angle they take.

 

I think the cultural barriers, at least now, has more of either historical (especially regarding golf and tennis) or just something that the older generations don't "get."  I don't think Asians not playing hockey (I'm in Canada, so I have to bring this up - LOL!) is necessarily due to historical segregation, since there were relatively few Asians in Canada when the NHL was white-only compared to today.  None of the full-Asian kids I went to school with had parents who were born in Canada - the parents mostly came as adults or younger teens.  Therefore, they wouldn't have grown up watching hockey, so the kids don't play, even though the kids took skating.  Of course, size may be an issue, too.  I mean, a 5'8" or 5'9", 150-160 lb Asian being bodychecked by a 6'1", 200 lb player...ouch.  Probably reason why there aren't a lot of Asians in football.

Edited October 29, 2014 by PRgal

[Rinaldo]

It does seem (personal anecdotal observation, obviously) that if one searches for collegiate swim team photos online, more schools than not will have at least one player visually identifiable as black (admittedly some may be foreign-born, a different cultural background). I venture to say that that wouldn't have been as true even 10 years ago. And I'll venture further that the Cullen Jones example will make a further difference in college team makeup, ten years down the line. Of course not everyone is destined to be Olympic-level, but that's true for all of us.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Rinaldo

[OnceSane]

As a child, I did competitive swimming for a number of years (as well as a few years later for the high school team). My sister's and I were usually the only black children on our team (a team which had at least 75 kids), and were many times the only black people present (aside from my dad). I never thought much of it as a child, because I was usually one of the few black people around. I grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood, so it was my normal. I was also usually the only black girl (or POC) on my soccer teams.

[SimoneS]

 I'm also curious if this myth (yep, that's what I'm calling it) persists among blacks with Caribbean roots?

 

I can say confidently it does not. I sure that people can find pictures of people of African descent swimming the tons of Caribbean beaches across the island nations. That this myth exists in America reflects how ingrained racial stereotypes are in society when it comes to intelligence and physical ability of specific ethnic groups.

 

Homo sapiens evolved on the African continent. Consequently, modern day African peoples have the greatest genetic diversity of all human populations. So if there is any correlation in genetics/physical ability and a given sport, then this genetic type would exist in some people of African descent. 

[ribboninthesky1]

Did you have a lot of pool parties in college? I went to an HBCU as well, and pool parties never involved anyone getting in the pool. Maybe a couple of guys would jump in. But usually people didn't even dress in swimsuits because a pool party wasn't for swimming. I always wanted to swim, but then I'd be that girl at the party. I like swimming a lot more than I like my hairstyle.

 

I wasn't much of a party-goer, so I can't speak to that at length.  I recall going to a couple, and it was mixed - some people were in the water, and some were not. And I agree about swimming, I can always wash and style my hair later.  I love the water! 

 

Nope, says this person Trinidadian heritage. We're from the islands, as in, surrounded by water!

 

I can say confidently it does not. I sure that people can find pictures of people of African descent swimming the tons of Caribbean beaches across the island nations. That this myth exists in America reflects how ingrained racial stereotypes are in society when it comes to intelligence and physical ability of specific ethnic groups.

 

Thanks.  I suspect the swimming myth is a case of one facet of black experience (i.e. inner city living in the continental US) being extrapolated to the overall population because so much of TV (whether news, scripted, or reality) over the past decades honed in on that slice of life.

[ridethemaverick]

Interesting, the diversity of experiences. I didn't know about the black people/swimming thing until I was an adult. I grew up in a middle class black area and my neighborhood had a pool and a swim team. Everyone on the team was black and their matches were usually against other black teams or black and white teams. I'm in the south and a lot of our subdivisions have pools so I didn't know a black kid who didn't swim or at least play in the water every summer.

I now know a lot of black folks who don't swim though, including my husband, who grew up in a very working class area. From my anecdotal experiences, I would guess SES is a factor.

[jhlipton]

 Probably reason why there aren't a lot of Asians in football.

 

Unless you count Samoans or other Islanders, who tend to have different body sizes than East Asians  (I don't think there are many "Middle Eastern" Asians in football, but that maybe a cultural thing (it being made with a pigskin and all).

[BoogieBurns]

I'd also like to see them talk about first names. I know the pilot had a short scene about "Andy" not being short for "Andre". But, I want to know the story behind the name Rainbow, and also why they chose Jack and Diane for the twins. 

[ribboninthesky1]

Also, is Zoey a common name for black female teenagers? I thought the kids' names were subtext into the "Black-ish" theme.

[BoogieBurns]

Only Zoey I can think of is Zoe Kravitz. So, no. None of their names are typical outside of Andre.

[mojito]

Diane isn't common anymore, but there were plenty of black and white Dianes born in the 1940s and 1950s.

[Rinaldo]

And I would say that the "ish" in the title signifies uncertainty about where to walk the line between "typical" (which could be read as embracing one's heritage) and not (being one's own individual person, whatever that may be). Which is one of the things the series is about, and one of the most universal things about it (whatever one perceives one's minority or outsider or special status to be).