Let's have a do-over! How The Americans might have been written better...

[Umbelina]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I always thought the biggest thing about EST for Philip was that it was about how you are a person outside of the roles that you play, since Philip often seemed to lack exactly that--he didn't know who he was. He couldn't be completely honest in the group but I think he was trying to do that privately to figure that out.

Yes, I agree, he really was trying, but he was hamstrung by the lies, and by Elizabeth's refusal to see anything "true" or for that matter "false" about her beliefs.

I know it didn't work for the writers, but I really wish Philip had dumped her, left with both kids, sent her a message to run back home because he was going to defect in two days.  I really think his obsession with her ruined his life, and his children's lives. 

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

20 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think the show is next to perfect but the only think I would have done a little differently was make Paige more advanced in her training.

But she was advanced. She was working alongside Marilyn etc. It's what they mostly do. She was working jobs.

Yes, compare her to Hans, she was right on schedule, but she just sucked.  I still wonder if the writers just gave up on her seeming competent, and went with the actress's skills, being idiotic and incompetent?  The ending would work either way.  Maybe they just threw the fans a bone, and essentially said, "Yeah, no Russian soul here, no super girl who can do anything, no brilliance, just a spoiled American brat."  OR, they just didn't want to deal with Paige actually reading newspapers, or asking intelligent questions about the situation in the USSR, or having even a slight qualm about betraying her country?

They could have, obviously, since this was a super short season.   That would have taken thought, care, and effort though.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, compare her to Hans, she was right on schedule, but she just sucked.  I still wonder if the writers just gave up on her seeming competent, and went with the actress's skills, being idiotic and incompetent?  The ending would work either way.  Maybe they just threw the fans a bone, and essentially said, "Yeah, no Russian soul here, no super girl who can do anything, no brilliance, just a spoiled American brat."  OR, they just didn't want to deal with Paige actually reading newspapers, or asking intelligent questions about the situation in the USSR, or having even a slight qualm about betraying her country?

They could have, obviously, since this was a super short season.   That would have taken thought, care, and effort though.

Paige was a little like a student who wasn't ever held back and now she's a junior in high school who can't read. (That sailor description is about that basic.)

To me it seems like they always planned to wind up where the did with her spy-wise, though. At least I don't think they ever had any plan for Paige to be some successful triumph for the second gen illegal program. There's just so much about her in S6 that's consistent with her in previous seasons. In fact, I find it harder to even imagine a storyline for her if she was written as a competent, committed spy. People often suggested stories like Paige killing Stan when he got too close or siding with Claudia but that always seemed like replacing Paige with some character from a different story in terms of what she was doing. I can't really think of anything in her story that laid the groundwork for that. Not because she never showed any intelligence, but just what motivated her and what she was searching for.

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige was a little like a student who wasn't ever held back and now she's a junior in high school who can't read. (That sailor description is about that basic.)

To me it seems like they always planned to wind up where the did with her spy-wise, though. At least I don't think they ever had any plan for Paige to be some successful triumph for the second gen illegal program. There's just so much about her in S6 that's consistent with her in previous seasons. In fact, I find it harder to even imagine a storyline for her if she was written as a competent, committed spy. People often suggested stories like Paige killing Stan when he got too close or siding with Claudia but that always seemed like replacing Paige with some character from a different story in terms of what she was doing. I can't really think of anything in her story that laid the groundwork for that. Not because she never showed any intelligence, but just what motivated her and what she was searching for.

I agree, but honestly, never reading a paper, not noticing the sailor  or warehouse people died while she was there?  Never questioning a single thing about her own treason or the conditions of the soviet union?

Strains credibility just a lot too far for me. 

They had time to do that, they just didn't wanna.

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 10:29 PM, hellmouse said:

4. Stan's circle of friends:

• Renee. She either is just Stan's new girlfriend/wife, or she has meaning to the larger spy story. They make us think the latter because Philip suspects it. Renee's behavior with Stan is similar to how Philip & Elizabeth act with their marks. But it's entirely possible that she is just a benign presence re: spying. If so, I wish they had made her seem more like a real person and less like someone playing a mark. Maybe even have less of her altogether. TBF, it's hard to judge without having seen the end. Maybe they will pull it off in a satisfactory way. 
• Amador. He is killed before the emotion of his death was earned, IMO. They have to create his relationship with Stan through flashbacks. It's not convincing, especially since it spurs Stan to murder Vlad as revenge. How long has Stan even worked with Amador? It just seems OTT. And I suspect if the writers could do it over, that they'd be able to fix this one fairly easily. 
• Gaad. His death was so bizarre and unexplained. It's the kind of thing that would make me think the producers had a problem with an actor and needed to get rid of him. But I don't think that was the case. I just wish it had had some greater repercussion. It would have made more sense if Stan wanted to murder someone as revenge for Gaad, rather than Amador. 

1. I suspected Renee straightawy whereas I never suspected the girl in the bus  as nobody could have known that Paige would be in that bus whereas it would have easy to arrange a chance meeting in the gym that Stan used and Stan and his likes well known because of Nina. Most of all, Renee was simply too good for Stan as she would have easily got a better "catch" than a divorced FBI-agent.

However, it seemed such a waste to put an illegal as 0Stan's girlfriend. Was it to warn P&E in time if Stan become suspicions? That didn't happen. To have her an easier access to the FBI - that was left open.

2. To me, Amador's death was emotional although now I think of it, his character has earlier been completely different than in Stan's flashbacks. But just that was so moving: a man who seemed only be interested to fuck so many women as possible and had treated Martha badly, was convinced that he would never become a traitor because shame wasn't an option to him - and he kept his word: died heroically and even left his ring as a clue (of course we don't know if he had endured torture). In the same time, it was ironical that he caused his death himself by stalking Martha and trying to use his position as the FBI to harm her new boyfried without realizing that he was a Soviet spy and too dangerous a adversary to fight alone.

As for killing Vlad as revenge, I think it could be well explained that Stan was new in the contra-spy department.   

3. The writers really left Gaad's death without a proper result except Arkady's expulsion. It was odd that Stan never suspected that he had given Philip information about Gaad's journey which probably led to an attempt to turn him and his suicide.

Yet, I believe that Stan had experienced so much after Amador's death and Nina's fate, that he was no longer willing to a personal revenge that could lead to a spiral of vengeance that nobody could control.       

[Chaos Theory]

See I disagree about Paige completely and think people have her in reverse.  We all see Hans being taught how to be a spy.  Elizabeth teaches him what to do and even has him follow Martha.  We never actually see Elizabeth do much teaching beside some basic fight training and watching Russian tv.  It would be like having someone go from grade school and ask them to take a college class and then call them stupid fir failing.    Every time Paige wanted to learn something or do something or even wanted to or could have been instructed on something her parents treated her more like a child then a spy in training.  Yes she was going to make mistakes but that is how we learn.....but no one ever bothered to tell her how to be better.

P&E spent a lifetime learning how to be spies.  How much education was put into their lessons?   None was put into Paige’s and yet she is still be blamed for not self learning?  

Edited December 4, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

See I disagree about Paige completely and think people have her in reverse.  We all see Hans being taught how to be a spy.  Elizabeth teaches him what to do and even has him follow Martha.  We never actually see Elizabeth do much teaching beside some basic fight training and watching Russian tv.  It would be like having someone go from grade school and ask them to take a college class and then call them stupid fir failing.    Every time Paige wanted to learn something or do something or even wanted to or could have been instructed on something her parents treated her more like a child then a spy in training.  Yes she was going to make mistakes but that is how we learn.....but no one ever bothered to tell her how to be better.

P&E spent a lifetime learning how to be spies.  How much education was put into their lessons?   None was put into Paige’s and yet she is still be blamed for not self learning?  

When P&E began their life and work as spies in the US, they had been taught and trained for years. They must already have been good - otherwise they had been caught years ago.

Spies or soldiers can't afford to "learn by making mistakes" in real situations - it can cause death to them or for others.

Paige had no abilities to be a spy and she should never have allowed participate in real operations.   

[Chaos Theory]

15 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

When P&E began their life and work as spies in the US, they had been taught and trained for years. They must already have been good - otherwise they had been caught years ago.

Spies or soldiers can't afford to "learn by making mistakes" in real situations - it can cause death to them or for others.

Paige had no abilities to be a spy and she should never have allowed participate in real operations.   

But that is kinda my point.   Would we expect P&E to be super spies without any training?    Why do we expect that from Paige?  

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

See I disagree about Paige completely and think people have her in reverse.  We all see Hans being taught how to be a spy.  Elizabeth teaches him what to do and even has him follow Martha.  We never actually see Elizabeth do much teaching beside some basic fight training and watching Russian tv.  It would be like having someone go from grade school and ask them to take a college class and then call them stupid fir failing.    Every time Paige wanted to learn something or do something or even wanted to or could have been instructed on something her parents treated her more like a child then a spy in training.  Yes she was going to make mistakes but that is how we learn.....but no one ever bothered to tell her how to be better.

P&E spent a lifetime learning how to be spies.  How much education was put into their lessons?   None was put into Paige’s and yet she is still be blamed for not self learning?  

 

Another issue with the 3 year time jump.

We only got to see Elizabeth grooming her before the time jump, and fight training.  Not "parents" by the way, it was only Elizabeth, Philip didn't want Paige anywhere near the KGB, he was not involved at all.

However, since she was now out on "missions" as a lookout, driver, etc.?  It's simply logical to assume that Elizabeth brought Paige along much as she did Hans, only without the objectivity needed to actually train and evaluate her progress.  We also saw a few scenes with Paige/Elizabeth talking about how Paige disregarded or broke her "training" rules.  There was another Hans like scene when Paige was supposed to be able to notice things around her, and she couldn't even get the name tag right on the navy guy, so yes, Elizabeth had trained her, as she did Hans, with the many scenes of him having to know what everyone on the street was wearing, license plates, etc.  Elizabeth's wording was nearly identical with Paige and Hans there, and she was very disturbed that even though Paige got much more than a glimpse of that guy, she didn't even get a name tag right.

Either of us could be correct, the show didn't bother with any pesky details about anything in the final season.  They took the easy way out, Paige not reading newspapers, or educating herself about the Soviet Union, or even have a moment of reflection about betraying her own country, or all the dead bodies turning up whenever she was out on a "mission."

I assumed she'd been trained all along, because that's what Philip and Claudia and Elizabeth implied in conversation, and certainly Elizabeth did by including her in missions, even dangerous missions, involving murder.

Rather than deal with that though, the writers chose "edgy" bullshit like hole digging that went on forever, watching what grow, and completely dark scenes because they thought it was cool, and it was much easier than dealing with the logical progression of Paige's training, or what a (hit us over the head with it some more) "very smart Paige" would actually be doing.

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

But that is kinda my point.   Would we expect P&E to be super spies without any training?    Why do we expect that from Paige?  

See above, that 3 year time jump covered a multitude of complicated things the writers had no interest in fleshing out.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

On 12/4/2018 at 8:25 AM, Chaos Theory said:

See I disagree about Paige completely and think people have her in reverse.  We all see Hans being taught how to be a spy.  Elizabeth teaches him what to do and even has him follow Martha.  We never actually see Elizabeth do much teaching beside some basic fight training and watching Russian tv.  It would be like having someone go from grade school and ask them to take a college class and then call them stupid fir failing.    Every time Paige wanted to learn something or do something or even wanted to or could have been instructed on something her parents treated her more like a child then a spy in training.  Yes she was going to make mistakes but that is how we learn.....but no one ever bothered to tell her how to be better.

P&E spent a lifetime learning how to be spies.  How much education was put into their lessons?   None was put into Paige’s and yet she is still be blamed for not self learning?  

 

With Hans we see, like, one scene of Elizabeth having him describe people on the street as training. After that we just see him working. Following Martha is work. Acting as lookout is work. Elizabeth and Philip are relying on him as a spy just as she does Paige and Marilyn in S6. That means he's ready to work.

With Paige we don't see a scene where Elizabeth is having her describe people but we know she got this same training because we see her knowing how she's supposed to describe the sailor. (We also see her repeat things she learned in class for Claudia and Elizabeth.) The fact that Paige is on the job means she got the same training as Hans--we came in around the same level as both. Just as we know she graduated from high school since she's now in college.

The only opportunity we get to see Paige trying to learn things as a spy in training is in S6 and yes, Elizabeth does blatantly lie to her about whether or not spies use sex and whether she murdered the General (Philip tries to be truthful with her about that). That's on Elizabeth. Oh, and her not telling her that losing her ID was not okay or that she got the name wrong was also bad--also on Elizabeth.

But those things aren't directly related to the rudimentary mistakes Paige is making in S6. She is told that blowing her cover and leaving her position can get people killed. She's obviously been taught how to get a description of people because she does it. This isn't a grade schooler failing a college class, it's a college student making grade school mistakes. 

On 12/4/2018 at 10:15 AM, Chaos Theory said:

But that is kinda my point.   Would we expect P&E to be super spies without any training?    Why do we expect that from Paige?  

We don't. The story in S6 isn't that she's being expected to be a super spy without any training. It's about how she ought to have minimal competence after the training she's had and she'd doesn't, which is why it's irresponsible to have her working. (Really, she sometimes falls below even where she should be without any training.)  It would be like saying that Philip and Elizabeth are super spies because they never say "Da" when they mean yes. That's not super spy, that's just spy.

The show even, imo, underlines this idea in the scenes where she does get corrected because of the way she dismisses the criticism and gets defensive. These aren't technical mistakes or stuff you have to learn from experience. They mostly all come down to understanding you're a spy.

Edited December 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On ‎4‎.‎12‎.‎2018 at 8:15 PM, Umbelina said:

Philip didn't want Paige anywhere near the KGB, he was not involved at all.

Well, he was a bit involved. Philip was present when Elizabeth told Paige (as they both believed at that time) about how the US wanted to poison the wheat and starve the USSR and again present when Paige asked about the matter and Elizabeth who had learned the truth lied about it. And Elizabeth and Philip brought Paige to meet Gabriel.

Of course one can understand that Philip who was always loyal to his wife didn't want to disagree with Elizabeth in front of Paige, but when he silently let her lie to their daughter, he was also responsible in indoctrinating Paige. 

[Roseanna]

I think that the Soviet agriculture expert Alexei Morozov in S5 should have given some detailed criticism against the Soviet economic system instead of only nagging "all was bad there" - a method that makes people always shut their ears. I don't mean that he should have given a lecture but make such remarks as how much vegatables were raised privately versus collectively or how much food was spoiled during delivery.

When Elizabeth and Philip had spent an evening with Morozovs, not only Elizabeth but also Philip began to remember how bad it was after the war - as if it were a defence that it was still bad after over 40 years after that.   

[sistermagpie]

46 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Of course one can understand that Philip who was always loyal to his wife didn't want to disagree with Elizabeth in front of Paige, but when he silently let her lie to their daughter, he was also responsible in indoctrinating Paige. 

I think there's also two things there that get combined. One is wanting Paige to be a spy, which Philip doesn't want. But the other is wanting Paige to understand them and respect what they do. I think the two get mixed up with both parents, undermining both of them. Philip undermines his goal of keeping her out of the KGB; Elizabeth undermines her goal of making Paige full KGB. Maybe because both of them are conflicted. Elizabeth doesn't really want Paige to know all about her or be exactly like her. Philip really doesn't want Paige to know all about him or reject him completely.

29 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I think that the Soviet agriculture expert Alexei Morozov in S5 should have given some detailed criticism against the Soviet economic system instead of only nagging "all was bad there" - a method that makes people always shut their ears. I don't mean that he should have given a lecture but make such remarks as how much vegatables were raised privately versus collectively or how much food was spoiled during delivery.

 

Did he not say at least a little of that? I thought he did say something about the bad delivery system. Philip, at least, did listen to him enough to question why the USSR couldn't make their own wheat, since they obviously have the land for it. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Well, he was a bit involved. Philip was present when Elizabeth told Paige (as they both believed at that time) about how the US wanted to poison the wheat and starve the USSR and again present when Paige asked about the matter and Elizabeth who had learned the truth lied about it. And Elizabeth and Philip brought Paige to meet Gabriel.

Of course one can understand that Philip who was always loyal to his wife didn't want to disagree with Elizabeth in front of Paige, but when he silently let her lie to their daughter, he was also responsible in indoctrinating Paige. 

No, he wasn't involved.  He did not want, or ever help promote Paige being in the KGB. 

Telling your hysterical daughter, who flat out tells you she knows you are lying to her, and needs the truth who YOU are, in no way, at all, means you want her to do the same thing.

As a matter of fact, Philip was actively against it all along, and remained so.  The fact that he (yet again) wimped completely out and caved for Elizabeth enough to not interfere with Elizabeth's plans doesn't mean he ever supported it.  Philip would chop off his own penis if that's what Elizabeth wanted, she ruled that roost completely.

[Roseanna]

On ‎18‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 8:28 PM, Bannon said:

The key to making Larrick a longer lasting and more fully developed arc would be to not write Larrick as a villain, but rather a complicated, conflicted gay man with exceptional skills, living in an era where the society which highly valued his skills, still oppressed and threatened him, forcing him to be faced with awful dilemmas. All the while being the most formidable target P and E ever would face. I think the writers just scratched the surface with this arc, and that's regrettable.

I can't feel any sympathy towards Larrick. I understand how hard his postiton as a gay man in the army was in the 80ies, but he had an options: to inform on the KGB agent and leave the army or commit a suicide and leave a letter to the FBI. Yes, this options demanded sacrifices from him, but wouldn't just that mean to be a soldier? It was sheer self-deception to continue as a soldier while giving information that would endanger his comrades. (Besides, his task to teach the contras - people who killed Lucia's family - was morally at least dubious.) 

[Dobian]

I'm actually watching for the first time and just started season 5, so avoiding reading here too much so I don't hit spoilers.  This one has been on my list to watch for a couple of years now, and finally got to it.  I have not been disappointed.  I think it's great, and seasons 3 and 4 are my favorites so far.  Some of my favorite characters include Martha and Oleg.  I thought Richard Thomas was great, and only wished they had given him a little more to do.  The series has so many great supporting actors like Frank Langella and Margo Martindale.  Sometimes things get a little bit disjointed like when they had to keep jumping back to Russia to wrap up the Nina story, which dragged on a little bit too long.  But overall, it's been pretty amazing, and I haven't seen a show with this many WTF moments since Breaking Bad.  I spent my teen and young adult years in the 80s, and love all the pop culture references.  Not just obvious things like the music, but they went the extra mile to show the evolution of the video games Henry played, David Copperfield on TV, Stan taking the Russian defector woman to see Tootsie at the movies, Paige wearing an Esprit shirt, etc.  Russell and Rhys did an impressive nuanced acting job in their roles.  Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.

[Roseanna]

21 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I spent my teen and young adult years in the 80s, and love all the pop culture references.  Not just obvious things like the music, but they went the extra mile to show the evolution of the video games Henry played, David Copperfield on TV, Stan taking the Russian defector woman to see Tootsie at the movies, Paige wearing an Esprit shirt, etc.  Russell and Rhys did an impressive nuanced acting job in their roles.  Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.

I would love if anybody would be so kind and make a list of the music references, because I didn't recognize all of them. 

[Chaos Theory]

I know one of the sticking points for people was that P&E were given all the assignments.  Maybe have them work with that family in season two for a bit longer and maybe later dig into if the 2nd gen program was actually feesable or actually just a pipe dream from a group of Russian bureaucrats who didn’t comprehend that even Russian spies loved their children.  

[Domestic Assassin]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I would love if anybody would be so kind and make a list of the music references, because I didn't recognize all of them. 

This should help.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

Not just obvious things like the music, but they went the extra mile to show the evolution of the video games Henry played, David Copperfield on TV, Stan taking the Russian defector woman to see Tootsie at the movies, Paige wearing an Esprit shirt, etc. 

In my re-watch (so far I'm still on season 1--I hope you join in the convo when you're done!) I realized I'd forgotten one of my all-time favorite 80s references and lines. When Gaad's told that they were following Joyce on the street and then she just disappeared (because the KGB grabbed her) Gaad says, "She disappeared? Is she Doug Henning?"

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said:

This should help.

Thank you!