S05.E15: Rise and Shine

[mascan42]

Is anybody else concerned that the show seems to have been reduced to reusing the same three sets over and over again? Those corridors have been redressed about a dozen times, to little effect - it all looks the same.

[Lobsel Vith]

8 minutes ago, Froippi said:

Honestly this a very big risk one i’m Not sure I agree with we know how long it can take Robin to predict the future it can be days or weeks just saying and i’m Not saying to Trust Fitz either but if she thinks it’s going to go any faster with Robin she has another thing coming plus she does not have any patience she needs things done now and it’s how things work with Robin 

Comparative to letting Fitz out, however, I'd argue it's much safer.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Comparative to letting Fitz out, however, I'd argue it's much safer.

My money's on Fitz.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Gothish520

[Lobsel Vith]

5 minutes ago, mascan42 said:

Is anybody else concerned that the show seems to have been reduced to reusing the same three sets over and over again? Those corridors have been redressed about a dozen times, to little effect - it all looks the same.

I agree that it's becoming more obvious that the budget was downgraded this season, which is probably why the pods were stretched out this season (so we have two instead of three, which likely makes it easier to reuse the same sets).

[Raja]

1 hour ago, mascan42 said:

Is anybody else concerned that the show seems to have been reduced to reusing the same three sets over and over again? Those corridors have been redressed about a dozen times, to little effect - it all looks the same.

I thought last season was it so it is all bonus content to me, just above fan films on YouTube. Since I am old enough to barely get a picture on a small screen and still loving Blake's 7 while noticing the cut budgets, aside from flaming Ghost Rider, over the past two years the 75 year old base look isn't a  show stopper 

[Froippi]

2 hours ago, mascan42 said:

Is anybody else concerned that the show seems to have been reduced to reusing the same three sets over and over again? Those corridors have been redressed about a dozen times, to little effect - it all looks the same.

Well this is what happens when your budget is cut this is the consequence and I think it will be cut further if renew next season 

I still believe Fitz and Daisy were never really friends as much as people want to say otherwise heck they barely talk

Edited March 31, 2018 by Froippi

[Sandman]

19 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

Found it interesting that Gemma kept talking about having a daughter. You could have a son an still have a grandson.

Except that Deke has already told her about his mother talking about her (Fitzsimmons) parents.

If this episode was meant to make me think of Hale as interesting, or as anything other than a massively stupid, self-deluded hag, it was a spectacular failure. How does Hydra still exist, when it's clearly made up entirely of jackbooted morons (to borrow Henry Jones, Sr.'s phrase)?

And speaking of self-delusion, for both Simmons and Yo-Yo to conclude that time paradoxes make them invulnerable strikes me as alarmingly dumb.

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

Except that Deke has already told her about his mother talking about her (Fitzsimmons) parents.

If this episode was meant to make me think of Hale as interesting, or as anything other than a massively stupid, self-deluded hag, it was a spectacular failure. How does Hydra still exist, when it's clearly made up entirely of jackbooted morons (to borrow Henry Jones, Sr.'s phrase)?

 

Well, I mean the Empire/First Order are hilariously incompetent and it's a bit of a trope to make your "evil empire"/bad guys totally incompetent so you don't have to write your heroes to be smart. They will just defeat them through their incompetents, etc.... Also, not loving how the show is (yet again) trying to devel deeper into the psyche of the Hydra member and trying (in my opinion) make her into some sympathetic villain. When you have Nazis, why try to make them all sympathetic? I am surprised that there wasn't a flashback of Whitehall's time being recruited by Hydra or something, yet. 

Quote

And speaking of self-delusion, for both Simmons and Yo-Yo to conclude that time paradoxes make them invulnerable strikes me as alarmingly dumb.

In my opinion, it's because back in Season 3 Fitz explained how he believed that spacetime works and he claim that everything is happening (right now) and that the future can't be changed- thus everything is kind of predetermined. Simmons seems also to believe this (after all if she thought that there were choices to be made she might not choose to be with Fitz) so the idea of hearing that she is going to have a kid and then the kid is going to have Deke just makes her think that everything will be fine and that she will live at least long enough to have a kid with Fitz (if she isn't already pregnant).  Knowing how this show loves its, "all visions must come true" motto I won't be surprised if they stick to this and have Simmons live long enough to have  a kid with Fitz, because having a kid with a guy that can at any moment give into his "Doctor" persona at any given time, must be a really thrilling thing for her to look forward too. 

 

In my opinion, a good writer would subvert this and maybe try to use this to say that things would work out differently (afterall Deke is in the past, where he doesn't belong, but Fitz and Simmons must assume that everything that happens, has already happened so Deke now belongs in the past right now) and with Yo-Yo I think that she believes this as well. Even though Dr. Strange has already proven that the future isn't a predetermined thing by changing events at the end of Dr. Strange with the Time Stone,

 

 

but I don't think that this show is unmoving on this idea (even though, IMO, they had in the past kind of went back on what the show said about a lot of things, IMO) or maybe they are just going to toy with this idea, but who knows? Maybe they will have a different ending than this one? Also, why is Deke in the past with them, story structure wise?

Edited March 31, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Sandman]

It's just that I feel certain the writers will find some way to subvert the idea that time is immutable, just enough for the hubris implied by "... It means you and I are invincible" to bite somebody in the ass. 

[TVSpectator]

41 minutes ago, Sandman said:

It's just that I feel certain the writers will find some way to subvert the idea that time is immutable, just enough for the hubris implied by "... It means you and I are invincible" to bite somebody in the ass. 

Yeah, sure, sure..... I am a betting that they maybe are able to change the future but Simmons already had a cop-out death in Season 4 final and I won't put it past the writers to repeat it. Also, we all know that the main characters have plot armor so a Simmons' death probably won't happen and they will probably end up having a kid. Maybe she will reveal to Fitz that she is already pregnant by the end of this season or something?

Edit:

Maybe Deke will die in a way to redeem himself and/or Fitz will be the one to have the sacrifice but the way the writing is I would bet it's Deke.  Also, wouldn't Virgil also be a grandson of Fitz and Simmons? Or is he like Deke's half-sibling or step-brother or what? I am under the impression that he was Deke's brother. I am also under the impression that Deke's mother was murdered by the Kree, so Simmons and Fitz already know that their daughter will be murdered. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[blueray]

I don't recall him being related to Virgil at all, he knew him and didn't really like him at all. Of course Virgil was like killed in one of his first scenes. I think he was friends with Tess but I could be wrong.

[CaptainTightpants]

On 3/30/2018 at 10:04 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I like Daisy being pissed at Fitz still. No matter what he says, it IS different than Daisy turning on the team.

The only time I recall Daisy actually turning on the team was when she was infected with Hive. Which was in no way her fault. 

When she went vigilante it was to save inhumans from the Watchdogs and she didn't harm SHIELD at all that I remember. So I'm calling dirty pool in May and Fitz acting like she has something to apologize for here. 

23 hours ago, Froippi said:

Yea but going after Robin is not a good move either cause honestly this could lead to whatever happens to Polly

Nonetheless I'm happy about this development because it will hopefully bring Hunter back into the mix. I'd also like to know why the 3 of them aren't still at lighthouse where they are supposed to be waiting out the end of the world. 

21 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I'm the only pointing out that Fitz's presumption that speaking to a woman is impossible is simply ridiculous.

Exactly! I hate to say it out loud as previously Fitz has been a perennial favorite of mine but he sounds like a rapist in this episode. His reasoning of "I asked, you said no, so I did it anyway, I don't need your forgiveness, just your trust" was very, very twisted. Daisy is the most emotionally invested member of the team in my opinion. If he had leaned on her trust and their friendship and said "I know this scares you but you need to trust me on this" I could see her going along with it.

Of course it doesn't make for good TV conflict. So we are getting DarkFitz instead. 

As an aside, I have recently started rewatching the series from the beginning and the evolution of Fitz is more marked than with anybody else. Very, very good acting by IDK but I hope they balance his character out soon because I'm not getting behind this version. 

13 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

When the episode ended on Simmons telling Fitz "we're invincible", my first thought was : One of these two people is going to die.

Yep. That is what I'm expecting too. 

9 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Fitz deserved the quaking, but I am glad he threw Daisy's past misdeeds in her face. I love Daisy, but as has already been said, she went off the rails a few times.

Daisy has definitely been prone to emotional and impulsive decision making, but I can't recall any instance where she actually harmed anyone in SHIELD. (except for the Hive thing which she gets a pass on). Even when she joins SHIELD under false pretenses at the beginning it is only to gain access to the database to find info about her parents. She never intended to cause harm to anyone. 

So in this instance, May and Fitz can both suck it as far as I'm concerned. Daisy has solid reasoning here. 

I forgot to say how happy I was to see Talbot! I hope we get to have him for a  few episodes, he always adds something to the mix. I hope he gets back to himself and comes up swinging with his mustache bristling!

Edited April 1, 2018 by CaptainTightpants

[Froippi]

14 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

The only time I recall Daisy actually turning on the team was when she was infected with Hive. Which was in no way her fault. 

When she went vigilante it was to save inhumans from the Watchdogs and she didn't harm SHIELD at all that I remember. So I'm calling dirty pool in May and Fitz acting like she has something to apologize for here. 

Nonetheless I'm happy about this development because it will hopefully bring Hunter back into the mix. I'd also like to know why the 3 of them aren't still at lighthouse where they are supposed to be waiting out the end of the world. 

Exactly! I hate to say it out loud as previously Fitz has been a perennial favorite of mine but he sounds like a rapist in this episode. His reasoning of "I asked, you said no, so I did it anyway, I don't need your forgiveness, just your trust" was very, very twisted. Daisy is the most emotionally invested member of the team in my opinion. If he had leaned on her trust and their friendship and said "I know this scares you but you need to trust me on this" I could see her going along with it.

Of course it doesn't make for good TV conflict. So we are getting DarkFitz instead. 

As an aside, I have recently started rewatching the series from the beginning and the evolution of Fitz is more marked than with anybody else. Very, very good acting by IDK but I hope they balance his character out soon because I'm not getting behind this version. 

Yep. That is what I'm expecting too. 

Daisy has definitely been prone to emotional and impulsive decision making, but I can't recall any instance where she actually harmed anyone in SHIELD. (except for the Hive thing which she gets a pass on). Even when she joins SHIELD under false pretenses at the beginning it is only to gain access to the database to find info about her parents. She never intended to cause harm to anyone. 

So in this instance, May and Fitz can both suck it as far as I'm concerned. Daisy has solid reasoning here. 

I forgot to say how happy I was to see Talbot! I hope we get to have him for a  few episodes, he always adds something to the mix. I hope he gets back to himself and comes up swinging with his mustache bristling!

 

The only thing I have a issue with in this post is that Daisy and Fitz were never really Friends idk why people don’t see it specially after season 1 & 2 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Froippi

[TVSpectator]

18 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Daisy has definitely been prone to emotional and impulsive decision making, but I can't recall any instance where she actually harmed anyone in SHIELD. (except for the Hive thing which she gets a pass on). Even when she joins SHIELD under false pretenses at the beginning it is only to gain access to the database to find info about her parents. She never intended to cause harm to anyone. 

 

 

Daisy got Tripp killed because she decided to run into the Inhuman Tenegerris Room (or whatever it was officially called on the show) when Raina took her to the sunken Inhuman city that was below San Juan in Season 2. Daisy also didn't follow Mack's wishes, in Season 3, and when ahead and "talked" to the one man she found on the internet and suspected that he can "give" her info on the Watchdogs' HQ. Also, she brought Fitz along and during her "talking scene" (which wasn't really a talk but threatening to inflict pain on him with her powers) Fitz held a gun to the guy's head so he couldn't run out of his truck. This all lead to Fitz (about mid-way through the episode) to get Howard Stark's exploding gloop stuck to his neck and they had to find a way to get it off before he explodes.  She also held Fitz by his neck (nearly choking him to death) when she was under HIve's control. 

4 minutes ago, Froippi said:

The only thing I have a issue with in this post is that Daisy and Fitz were never really Friends idk why people don’t see it specially after season 1 & 2 

 

No, all of Coulson's team members were supposed to be all friends by the end of Season 1 (minus of course Ward). Especially Daisy and Fitz- I mean Fitz even hid Diasy's test results from Simmons in Season 2 after she became an Inhuman and in Season 1, Daisy was the only one who, Fitz, told that he was secretly in love with Simmons. Seems like there were friends. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

4 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Daisy got Tripp killed because she decided to run into the Inhuman Tenegerris Room (or whatever it was officially called on the show) when Raina took her to the sunken Inhuman city that was below San Juan in Season 2. Daisy also didn't follow Mack's wishes, in Season 3, and when ahead and "talked" to the one man she found on the internet and suspected that he can "give" her info on the Watchdogs' HQ. Also, she brought Fitz along and during her "talking scene" (which wasn't really a talk but threatening to inflict pain on him with her powers) Fitz held a gun to the guy's head so he couldn't run out of his truck. This all lead to Fitz (about mid-way through the episode) to get Howard Stark's exploding gloop stuck to his neck and they had to find a way to get it off before he explodes.  She also held Fitz by his neck (nearly choking him to death) when she was under HIve's control. 

No, all of Coulson's team members were supposed to be all friends by the end of Season 1 (minus of course Ward). Especially Daisy and Fitz- I mean Fitz even hid Diasy's test results from Simmons in Season 2 after she became an Inhuman and in Season 1, Daisy was the only one who, Fitz, told that he was secretly in love with Simmons. Seems like there were friends. 

I mean I get what your saying but I never got the impression after season 2 they were friends 

[Chaos Theory]

I am really looking forward to Fitz and Deke’s next scene together.

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, Froippi said:

The only thing I have a issue with in this post is that Daisy and Fitz were never really Friends idk why people don’t see it specially after season 1 & 2 

I would say that they were. We don't get to see the team really hang out because they're constantly in life and death situations, especially Fitzsimmons, but Fitz and Daisy were friends. Fitz was the one to help Daisy in season 2, when she was called Skye, with her Inhuman powers and was completely supportive of her. Season 4 even had him feel very betrayed by Daisy leaving the team to be a vigilante. Of course, I always felt like Daisy and Fitz's friendship could have been developed way more than it was, but I never doubted that they were friends, even when Daisy was off with whatever love interest she was shoved with in seasons 3 and 4, or when Fitz was dealing with some life and death crisis with Jemma. 

3 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am really looking forward to Fitz and Deke’s next scene together.

Same here. Actually, we didn't even get to really see much of Jemma's reaction after Deke told her, so I'm looking forward to Deke's scenes with his grandparents. I want to see how things change between them, and when everyone else finds out. I can't imagine the reaction being as hilarious as Fitz's. 

[Froippi]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I would say that they were. We don't get to see the team really hang out because they're constantly in life and death situations, especially Fitzsimmons, but Fitz and Daisy were friends. Fitz was the one to help Daisy in season 2, when she was called Skye, with her Inhuman powers and was completely supportive of her. Season 4 even had him feel very betrayed by Daisy leaving the team to be a vigilante. Of course, I always felt like Daisy and Fitz's friendship could have been developed way more than it was, but I never doubted that they were friends, even when Daisy was off with whatever love interest she was shoved with in seasons 3 and 4, or when Fitz was dealing with some life and death crisis with Jemma. 

Same here. Actually, we didn't even get to really see much of Jemma's reaction after Deke told her, so I'm looking forward to Deke's scenes with his grandparents. I want to see how things change between them, and when everyone else finds out. I can't imagine the reaction being as hilarious as Fitz's. 

I guess but I still believe they were never friends I might be the only one that thinks that but I will stand behind that 

[CaptainTightpants]

22 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Daisy got Tripp killed because she decided to run into the Inhuman Tenegerris Room (or whatever it was officially called on the show) when Raina took her to the sunken Inhuman city that was below San Juan in Season 2. Daisy also didn't follow Mack's wishes, in Season 3, and when ahead and "talked" to the one man she found on the internet and suspected that he can "give" her info on the Watchdogs' HQ. Also, she brought Fitz along and during her "talking scene" (which wasn't really a talk but threatening to inflict pain on him with her powers) Fitz held a gun to the guy's head so he couldn't run out of his truck. This all lead to Fitz (about mid-way through the episode) to get Howard Stark's exploding gloop stuck to his neck and they had to find a way to get it off before he explodes.  She also held Fitz by his neck (nearly choking him to death) when she was under HIve's control. 

No, all of Coulson's team members were supposed to be all friends by the end of Season 1 (minus of course Ward). Especially Daisy and Fitz- I mean Fitz even hid Diasy's test results from Simmons in Season 2 after she became an Inhuman and in Season 1, Daisy was the only one who, Fitz, told that he was secretly in love with Simmons. Seems like there were friends. 

That is basically my point. Any harm resulting from Daisy's actions in the past has been unintentional on her part. She didn't set out to harm Tripp or Fitz. 

While Fitz straight up knocked Daisy out, strapped her to a table like livestock and performed life threatening surgery on her while she was begging him to stop. Her harmed her on purpose.

And did everybody else just decide to forget that he programmed his robo-minions hold Jemma and Deke at gunpoint while he went all Dr. Evil on Daisy? Why isn't May mad about that?

I do miss the cast interactions from earlier seasons. The Fitz and Daisy friendship was much more developed in seasons 1-3. I was hoping a smaller budget would get us back to more character driven story arcs, but so far we are doing apocalypse on a budget instead. 

[Froippi]

9 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

That is basically my point. Any harm resulting from Daisy's actions in the past has been unintentional on her part. She didn't set out to harm Tripp or Fitz. 

While Fitz straight up knocked Daisy out, strapped her to a table like livestock and performed life threatening surgery on her while she was begging him to stop. Her harmed her on purpose.

And did everybody else just decide to forget that he programmed his robo-minions hold Jemma and Deke at gunpoint while he went all Dr. Evil on Daisy? Why isn't May mad about that?

I do miss the cast interactions from earlier seasons. The Fitz and Daisy friendship was much more developed in seasons 1-3. I was hoping a smaller budget would get us back to more character driven story arcs, but so far we are doing apocalypse on a budget instead. 

Where did it say it was life threatening I only know it could paralyze her 

[Bubbles]

4 hours ago, Sandman said:

And speaking of self-delusion, for both Simmons and Yo-Yo to conclude that time paradoxes make them invulnerable strikes me as alarmingly dumb.

I'm not convinced yet that Simmons actually believes that as opposed to seeing it as a potential way to give Fitz some hope and nudge him back towards the light. 

[TVSpectator]

14 minutes ago, Bubbles said:

I'm not convinced yet that Simmons actually believes that as opposed to seeing it as a potential way to give Fitz some hope and nudge him back towards the light. 

No its pretty self-delusional to think that she is safe because she is going to have a kid in the future. These people literally time traveled and they think that it can't  all be undone? And Simmons is supposed to be a Doctor Who fan too. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[kitlee625]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

It's just that I feel certain the writers will find some way to subvert the idea that time is immutable, just enough for the hubris implied by "... It means you and I are invincible" to bite somebody in the ass. 

The writers have lampshaded it enough times that I feel like this "invincible" idea has become Chekov's gun. It has to go off at some point this season. Also, what I don't understand is, aren't they actively trying to change the future and prevent the planet from blowing up? So if that's their goal, they can't take anything about the future for granted.

Edited April 1, 2018 by kitlee625

[Sandman]

9 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

The writers have lampshaded it enough times that I feel like this "invincible" idea has become Chekov's gun. It has to go off at some point this season. Also, what I don't understand is, aren't they actively trying to change the future and prevent the planet from blowing up? So if that's their goal, they can't take anything about the future for granted.

It seems to me that the team will be at cross purposes from here on: Simmons, it seems, would be invested in a future that includes Deke, and implies Fitz's recovery; this is precisely the future that Elena seeks to prevent. And by working to rescue Coulson, May and Daisy may be assuring the destruction of all. I don't care whether Hale may be involved or not.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Sandman

[blugirlami21]

Hmmm, not sure about the Fitz and Daisy never being friends thing. He's always been very supportive of her especially when they found out she was inhuman and Simmons was not supportive at all. He also had a massive crush on her season one which a lot of people forget, I know I did lol. I wouldn't say they're bffs but they're friends imo anyway.

I have to say I don't think Fitz is evil in general or for what he did to Daisy. Every one of them has gone off the rails at some point or another. Daisy kind of gets a pass from me for the HIVE thing. She was under his influence but she was still Daisy. And she came quite close to killing both Fitz and Mac when they tried to "rescue" her. 

Fitz now reminds me of when Jemma was missing and he was willing to do whatever it took to get her back. That single mindedness has always been there, sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. His behavior in the framework just allowed that part of him to flourish without Jemma there to counteract it and now it can't be reburied.  

Idk with everything that has happened and will happen in shield this just seems like an unpleasant bump in the road rather than something to angst about. Maybe Daisy will forgive Fitz and maybe she won't. There always seems to be one person who turns on the team every season and maybe I'm just unfazed by it at this point.

Edited April 1, 2018 by blugirlami21

[Ceindreadh]

On 31/3/2018 at 4:54 AM, Lobsel Vith said:

Robin is psychic, and Fitz is almost entirely untrustworthy and nearly killed Yo-yo, Mack, Simmons, and Daisy. I'm not sure why turning to someone who can see the future is worse than trusting a guy who is giving in to his inner Nazi.

Daisy appears to have decided that getting information that could potentially save the world, outweighs any risk to an individual person. Wherever Robin is now, she’s likely to be put in more danger by Daisy making contact with her.

Daisy has presumably decided that the end justifies the means at least when she’s the one putting people in danger  

(for the record I still think Fitz should have just laid out his logic for the team and let them guilt Daisy into having her powers restored to seal the rift)

[tessaray]

This was a weirdly paced episode.  The Destroyer of Worlds twist should have had more of an impact than it did. 

I actually liked Ruby for a split second, with her "Hell no, what kind of BS test is that?" scene.  Though if teen Hale's story was supposed to inspire sympathy for her, it didn't work very well. Any twinge I felt at the breeder moment was more than outweighed by the whole Hydra thing.  I know that Hydra is part of the show's (and Marvel's) mythology but I don't care and probably never will.  I didn't mind it in Agent Carter, so maybe it's just the execution?

Poor Talbot. The line about SHIELD not coming was gutting. 

[MisterGlass]

I agree with getting Robin back and asking for her help.  She and her mother are under the protection of Shield because Robin is already under threat.  She has visions whether or not she is asked to have them, and her mother consented to her involvement in Enoch's plan.  It will be May that spends the most time with her given what she knows about their possible future.

Agree with everyone commenting on the Checkov's gun of invincibility.  Not gonna work out well.

I enjoyed seeing Talbot again.

Good work on young Sitwell - I knew instantly who that was supposed to be.

[TVSpectator]

16 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

The writers have lampshaded it enough times that I feel like this "invincible" idea has become Chekov's gun. It has to go off at some point this season. Also, what I don't understand is, aren't they actively trying to change the future and prevent the planet from blowing up? So if that's their goal, they can't take anything about the future for granted.

 

There were a lot of things lampshaded on this show that never came to be so I won't be surprised if that was to be taken literally and that nothing will happen to them. This show has also toyed with Checkov's gun but has never pulled the trigger, IMO. 

15 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

Hmmm, not sure about the Fitz and Daisy never being friends thing. He's always been very supportive of her especially when they found out she was inhuman and Simmons was not supportive at all. He also had a massive crush on her season one which a lot of people forget, I know I did lol. I wouldn't say they're bffs but they're friends imo anyway.

 

2

Well, IMO, it was dropped because of the Fitz Simmons shippers and the writers started the "will they/won't they" plotline that lead to Simmons losing not one but two love interest through death (Trip and Will)- and totally forgetting about them, wanting to leave Will on that planet all lone when she thought that he was still alive, totally changing Simmons' personality to "wow I suddenly love Fitz and want to be in a romantic relationship with him even though I spent the past 3 seasons actually tyring to avoid that",  Fitz suddenly being secertly in love with Simmons and not  able to tell her even though they have been close friends for 10 years at that point, Fitz somehow telling Daisy that he is in love with Simmons even though he barely knew her at the time, etc...

Quote

 

I have to say I don't think Fitz is evil in general or for what he did to Daisy. Every one of them has gone off the rails at some point or another. Daisy kind of gets a pass from me for the HIVE thing. She was under his influence but she was still Daisy. And she came quite close to killing both Fitz and Mac when they tried to "rescue" her. 

Fitz now reminds me of when Jemma was missing and he was willing to do whatever it took to get her back. That single mindedness has always been there, sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. His behavior in the framework just allowed that part of him to flourish without Jemma there to counteract it and now it can't be reburied.  

Idk with everything that has happened and will happen in shield this just seems like an unpleasant bump in the road rather than something to angst about. Maybe Daisy will forgive Fitz and maybe she won't. There always seems to be one person who turns on the team every season and maybe I'm just unfazed by it at this point.

 

 

 

What he did to Daisy is evil though so, I would say actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter, we get that the "Doctor" is supposed to be Fitz's evil side but overall if he did have some kind of control over things that don't excuse what he did as not being evil. Sort of like how Deke shouldn't be excused for selling Daisy into slavery nor working with the Kree (who also killed his mother- Fitz and Simmons' future daughter)- actions of the characters, IMO, speak louder than what they said on the show. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

I never saw this love for Daisy that Fitz was suppose to have for Daisy I doubt Daisy would have felt the same way.

 

He did acknowledge to Simmons he was in love with her at the end of season 1.

 

It did sorta of feel like Simmons had a thing for Tripp but had no way of knowing for sure so just assume it was a crush more than anything serious since it never got explore 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Froippi

[TVSpectator]

39 minutes ago, Froippi said:

I never saw this love for Daisy that Fitz was suppose to have for Daisy I doubt Daisy would have felt the same way. 

 

Well they had a good pairing but wasn't  official. Whatever was build up in Season 1 was quickly swept under the rug for his sudden undying for Simmons. Although the writing has always implied that they were all friends.

 

Quote

He did acknowledge to Simmons he was in love with her at the end of season 1.

Yeah  he dropped that ball at the bottom of the ocean and Simmons said she doesn't love him (and felt bad about). Then in Season 2 we learn that Fitz got brain damage, because of that whole ocean thing, and ( the real and not Fitz's hallucinated Simmons, also known as "Phantom Simmons")  Simmons left him for 6+ months while Fitz had a mental breakdown, still rejected his advances (while the others started to push them to hook up) when she came back, flitered with Trip, Trip suddenly  died, then after all that Fitz begging to have one date with Simmons she got sucked into the Monolith and met Will, allegedly fell in love with Will (and clearly) slept  with him within 6 months, then came back to Earth and (and guess) got PTSD, then told Fitz about Will, and then decided to work to rescue him ( while Hunter's advice was to leave Will on that planet and the writing destroy the character for me) only to say that they shouldn't rescue Will because IT was too scary for them (which destroyed Simmons' character for me), etc....

Quote

It did sorta of feel like Simmons had a thing for Tripp but had no way of knowing for sure so just assume it was a crush more than anything serious since it never got explore

And that is what I mean that they fucked up that relationship. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Jack Kerouac]

I find it interesting that they are holding Fitz 'prisoner,' considering none of them are actually law enforcement personnel. They have absolutely no authority whatsoever to hold ANYONE prisoner, nor to do anything they are actually doing. Regardless, good interactions this episode.

Daisy, with her stupidity and emotional childishness (and I like her) has placed every team member in danger multiple times and should just shut it. Yup, performing surgery on someone against their will is pretty terrible. Fitz has laid out his justifications for it (she would have said no, the rift was about to start affecting the town above them, etc.), so they are kind of at an impasse. It doesn't help that Fitz is justifying his actions through logic and Daisy can't even spell the word.

Of course, leave it to Daisy, the worst leader ever, to run off, ignoring everyone's advice, just so she can put a child in danger on the off chance she can get some information out of her. Way to go, being the SHIELD that protects everyone! Everyone except for Robin, that is. I just wish they would write Daisy so that she actually has a brain instead of emotionally lashing out all the time. Leaders use their minds, not their feelings to make decisions.

[TVSpectator]

22 minutes ago, Jack Kerouac said:

I find it interesting that they are holding Fitz 'prisoner,' considering none of them are actually law enforcement personnel. They have absolutely no authority whatsoever to hold ANYONE prisoner, nor to do anything they are actually doing. Regardless, good interactions this episode.

Daisy, with her stupidity and emotional childishness (and I like her) has placed every team member in danger multiple times and should just shut it. Yup, performing surgery on someone against their will is pretty terrible. Fitz has laid out his justifications for it (she would have said no, the rift was about to start affecting the town above them, etc.), so they are kind of at an impasse. It doesn't help that Fitz is justifying his actions through logic and Daisy can't even spell the word.

Of course, leave it to Daisy, the worst leader ever, to run off, ignoring everyone's advice, just so she can put a child in danger on the off chance she can get some information out of her. Way to go, being the SHIELD that protects everyone! Everyone except for Robin, that is. I just wish they would write Daisy so that she actually has a brain instead of emotionally lashing out all the time. Leaders use their minds, not their feelings to make decisions.

I agree that they all have done horrible to shitty things that led them to be all assholes ( and I so want Simmons to be a Skrull and the real Simmons being locked in a Skrull prison) but locking Fitz up while he can snapped into his Dr. Scottish Mengela persona was probably for the best, IMO. Also what he did to Daisy was torture and evil. There really is no excuse for what he did ( and also no excuse for Deke selling Daisy into slavery and/or working with the same Kree that murdered his mother and almost getting humans of the lighthouse wiped out ) and at least Radcliff had volunteers for his first round of experiments , under Hive, and both experiments could be said he was forced to under threat of death from Hive ( then again Radcliff was kind played up as a guy that wouldn't mind what he was doing in the first place) Then again Fitz didn't ask for consent he just went ahead and did something evil to Daisy. This time, Daisy isn't being the big asshole here, IMO. Not only that but having Simmons trying to make excuses up for him is actaully kind of bad.

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Froippi]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Well they had a good pairing but wasn't  official. Whatever was build up in Season 1 was quickly swept under the rug for his sudden undying for Simmons. Although the writing has always implied that they were all friends.

 

Yeah  he dropped that ball at the bottom of the ocean and Simmons said she doesn't love him (and felt bad about). Then in Season 2 we learn that Fitz got brain damage, because of that whole ocean thing, and ( the real and not Fitz's hallucinated Simmons, also known as "Phantom Simmons")  Simmons left him for 6+ months while Fitz had a mental breakdown, still rejected his advances (while the others started to push them to hook up) when she came back, flitered with Trip, Trip suddenly  died, then after all that Fitz begging to have one date with Simmons she got sucked into the Monolith and met Will, allegedly fell in love with Will (and clearly) slept  with him within 6 months, then came back to Earth and (and guess) got PTSD, then told Fitz about Will, and then decided to work to rescue him ( while Hunter's advice was to leave Will on that planet and the writing destroy the character for me) only to say that they shouldn't rescue Will because IT was too scary for them (which destroyed Simmons' character for me), etc....

And that is what I mean that they fucked up that relationship. 

 

Ok yea she said that in Season 2 but never really said she didn’t love him just never seen him like that romantically 

 

To add to this Fitz almost basically wanted nothing to do with Simmons most of Season 2

Edited April 1, 2018 by Froippi

[Lobsel Vith]

39 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Well they had a good pairing but wasn't  official. Whatever was build up in Season 1 was quickly swept under the rug for his sudden undying for Simmons. Although the writing has always implied that they were all friends.

You have a fair point. Elizabeth Henstridge has said that Iain and her were playing their scenes as brother and sister, and that they were doing so right up until the very end of the season, where they were surprised to learn that the writers decided to turn the relationship romantic (she even referred to it as "incestuous", which makes sense since they were envisioned as a brother-sister duo based on the brothers from Ocean's Eleven). I know Chloe Bennet said in one interview that being paired off would make them both uncomfortable because of their real life semi-brother-sister relationship (and she jokingly said they wanted them paired off because of that).

40 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Yeah  he dropped that ball at the bottom of the ocean and Simmons said she doesn't love him (and felt bad about). Then in Season 2 we learn that Fitz got brain damage, because of that whole ocean thing, and ( the real and not Fitz's hallucinated Simmons, also known as "Phantom Simmons")  Simmons left him for 6+ months while Fitz had a mental breakdown, still rejected his advances (while the others started to push them to hook up) when she came back, flitered with Trip, Trip suddenly  died, then after all that Fitz begging to have one date with Simmons she got sucked into the Monolith and met Will, allegedly fell in love with Will (and clearly) slept  with him within 6 months, then came back to Earth and (and guess) got PTSD, then told Fitz about Will, and then decided to work to rescue him ( while Hunter's advice was to leave Will on that planet and the writing destroy the character for me) only to say that they shouldn't rescue Will because IT was too scary for them (which destroyed Simmons' character for me), etc....

It comes across like the Nice Guy Trope, which seems almost intentionally given how they spent almost the entirety of season two having her not be interested in Fitz (to the point where she tells Bobbi she's never viewed him romantically while we see her show a clear interest in Trip) but then does a 180 during the season finale, which almost makes me wonder if the writers ended up changing their mind from their original intention (they were flipping some tropes, like with Ward starting off as the stoic white action hero, only to turn out to be the villain, but FitzSimmons is very much the common Nice Guy trope in how it was approached by the writers).

[Froippi]

42 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I agree that they all have done horrible to shitty things that led them to be all assholes ( and I so want Simmons to be a Skrull and the real Simmons being locked in a Skrull prison) but locking Fitz up while he can snapped into his Dr. Scottish Mengela persona was probably for the best, IMO. Also what he did to Daisy was torture and evil. There really is no excuse for what he did ( and also no excuse for Deke selling Daisy into slavery and/or working with the same Kree that murdered his mother and almost getting humans of the lighthouse wiped out ) and at least Radcliff had volunteers for his first round of experiments , under Hive, and both experiments could be said he was forced to under threat of death from Hive ( then again Radcliff was kind played up as a guy that wouldn't mind what he was doing in the first place) Then again Fitz didn't ask for consent he just went ahead and did something evil to Daisy. This time, Daisy isn't being the big asshole here, IMO. Not only that but having Simmons trying to make excuses up for him is actaully kind of bad.

 

If you think Simmons was going to abandon him you had another thing coming though  their all spy’s they double cross even each other 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Froippi

[tessaray]

Hopefully they find a way to fix Fitz's shattered psyche but I'm not very confident that's what they have in mind.  For one, Fitz doesn't seem to be terribly bothered by what he did to Daisy.  Before he started operating he was obviously torn (literally, in two) but once he made his decision, it changed something in him.  Just thinking about the horrified Fitz as he came out of the Framework to the cold Fitz who challenged Daisy in this episode - that's an arc I didn't see coming.  Kind of season six Buffy-ish, both revolting and riveting at the same time.  

[TVSpectator]

9 minutes ago, Froippi said:

If you think Simmons was going to abandon him you had another thing coming though  their all spy’s they double cross even each other 

It won't be the first time that the she left him. She left him when he had brain damage for 6+ months.

[Froippi]

21 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

It won't be the first time that the she left him. She left him when he had brain damage for 6+ months.

Yea but after that comment she made in the last episode does not make it sound like someone who is going to leave someone 

[TVSpectator]

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

Yea but after that comment she made in the last episode does not make it sound like someone who is going to leave someone 

But she already left Fitz and Abandoned Will on that planet- it would be totally in character for her to do it.

Edited April 1, 2018 by TVSpectator

[TVSpectator]

3 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

You have a fair point. Elizabeth Henstridge has said that Iain and her were playing their scenes as brother and sister, and that they were doing so right up until the very end of the season, where they were surprised to learn that the writers decided to turn the relationship romantic (she even referred to it as "incestuous", which makes sense since they were envisioned as a brother-sister duo based on the brothers from Ocean's Eleven). I know Chloe Bennet said in one interview that being paired off would make them both uncomfortable because of their real life semi-brother-sister relationship (and she jokingly said they wanted them paired off because of that).

It comes across like the Nice Guy Trope, which seems almost intentionally given how they spent almost the entirety of season two having her not be interested in Fitz (to the point where she tells Bobbi she's never viewed him romantically while we see her show a clear interest in Trip) but then does a 180 during the season finale, which almost makes me wonder if the writers ended up changing their mind from their original intention (they were flipping some tropes, like with Ward starting off as the stoic white action hero, only to turn out to be the villain, but FitzSimmons is very much the common Nice Guy trope in how it was approached by the writers).

I have heard the story how they were instructed to play their characters like they were brother and sister and that it was changed to Fitz being romantically interested in Simmons and Simmons playing like she wasn't aware/not interested in him. I also heard once that Ian De Caestecker doesn't (or didn't) want Fitz to have any children and the writers promised him he won't but apparently, that was either not true or the showrunners lied to Ian De Caestecker (since they have given him a future kid and a grandson). But yeah, in my opinion, things were changed because the showrunners only responded to the shippers' desired to have them hooked up and be a couple and to just write it, in my opinion, in the worst way possible.

 

As with Ward, he was a face-heel turn trope down to the wire, IMO.

Quote

This is the Evil Counterpart to the more common Heel–Face Turn and is generally found in a story with Black and White Morality. The many reasons and the probability for a turn are listed in the Sorting Algorithm Of Face Heel Turning.In a world full of Brainwashed victims, they may be the one who appears to be but really is Not Brainwashed.The term "Face Heel Turn" comes from Professional Wrestling, in which a "good" wrestler (a face) is occasionally tempted by The Dark Side, or just gets fed up, and becomes a heel. Magazines and other promotional material from the various wrestling "leagues" frequently comment on various wrestlers' changes in "alignment" (in wrestling's fictional plotline known as kayfabe) nearly as frequently as they actually cover events in the ring themselves. (They even use phrases like "Face Heel Turn", though the shorter "Heel Turn" is more common.)A wrestler's heel turn is often a sign that he or she is about to see his or her popularity skyrocket. Indeed, it is very common, once they have turned, to remain heels for their entire careers. Heels that become really popular may end up "naturally" becoming faces again, but it is just as likely for heels to be beloved because they are heels. In fact, as paradoxical as it might seem, a heel turn can help an otherwise despised wrestler become likable: fans may well resent a face character, and may be better able to relate to a character who is profoundly flawed in one way or another. (After all, that's what satire is all about.)

2

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceHeelTurn

 

Edit:

 

Formatting, spelling, and also putting links in this. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by TVSpectator

[SnoGirl]

22 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

The only time I recall Daisy actually turning on the team was when she was infected with Hive. Which was in no way her fault.  

 

Well...Ive been rewatching the show too and there was this time when Daisy turned her back on Shield and choose the Inhumans over them. She attacked May with her powers. Coulson ended up losing his hand amd Jemma was scooped up by the rock at the end of that story. Skye also tried to warn her hacker boyfriend that Shield was coming for him in Season One which betrayed Shield and really pissed off Ward. Also, got a handful of Shield agents killed bc that’s when Scorch went off the rails.

I’m getting real nervous about this storyline. If this is the end of the show, I don’t know if I can stand it ending with Dark Fitz. Fix the timeline Shield! Save Talbot, you’re his only hope!

The best two parts of this show were Fitz’s reaction to Deke (it literally looked like his brain could not compute the information given to him) and Talbot. Poor poor Talbot. I hope they rescue him.

Edited April 2, 2018 by SnoGirl

[Froippi]

I am getting that feeling that Dark Fitz is on the rise and no more good guy Fitz 

[Chyromaniac]

On 3/31/2018 at 1:34 PM, mascan42 said:

Is anybody else concerned that the show seems to have been reduced to reusing the same three sets over and over again? Those corridors have been redressed about a dozen times, to little effect - it all looks the same.

Yet Ollie, Kara & Barry are still amazed at the breadth and variety of locations in the SHIELD-verse...

[TVSpectator]

4 minutes ago, Froippi said:

I am getting that feeling that Dark Fitz is on the rise and no more good guy Fitz 

Pfft...they won't do it, IMO. They had better storylines that were ended way too shortly and/or missed total good opportunies. Also forced happy endings is what I think is going to happened.

[Lobsel Vith]

2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Well...Ive been rewatching the show too and there was this time when Daisy turned her back on Shield and choose the Inhumans over them. She attacked May with her powers.

 

To put that in context, Daisy thought Gonzales' people tried to murder her mother, and Gonzales' team had attempted to murder her earlier that year. It's not as if she had no reason to think that Gonzales' people would try to harm Inhumans.

Additionally, since Daisy didn't torture anyone in a sadistic manner the way that Fitz did, bringing up her past doesn't put her on the same level as what Fitz did. What Fitz did was a hollow attempt to try and put them on the same level - in short, he pulled a Ward. Fitz also knows Daisy is willing to put her life on the line for others - when Fitz jumped into the portal of the monolith without warning anyone, Daisy risked her life to keep it open to make sure Fitz and Simmons could make it back. It's not as if Daisy is a stranger to him or anything like that; he's known her for years, after all.

2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Skye also tried to warn her hacker boyfriend that Shield was coming for him in Season One which betrayed Shield and really pissed off Ward.

 

Ward's opinion means nothing. I could care less about what the guy who threatened to rape her thought.

Now, she did warn Miles, she did so because she thought he was innocent. She was wrong - no question about that, but it's not like she warned him knowing he was guilty.

2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

I’m getting real nervous about this storyline. If this is the end of the show, I don’t know if I can stand it ending with Dark Fitz. Fix the timeline Shield! Save Talbot, you’re his only hope!

 

I'm pretty sure Fitz's actions will be handwaved like Deke's were. Most of the people in the episode showed more concern for Fitz than his victim, after all, so I doubt they're going to turn him into a villain when they're already working on moving past what he did.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Lobsel Vith

[Froippi]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

To put that in context, Daisy thought Gonzales' people tried to murder her mother, and Gonzales' team had attempted to murder her earlier that year. It's not as if she had no reason to think that Gonzales' people would try to harm Inhumans.

Additionally, since Daisy didn't torture anyone in a sadistic manner the way that Fitz did, bringing up her past doesn't put her on the same level as what Fitz did. What Fitz did was a hollow attempt to try and put them on the same level - in short, he pulled a Ward. Fitz also knows Daisy is willing to put her life on the line for others - when Fitz jumped into the portal of the monolith without warning anyone, Daisy risked her life to keep it open to make sure Fitz and Simmons could make it back. It's not as if Daisy is a stranger to him or anything like that; he's known her for years, after all.

Ward's opinion means nothing. I could care less about what the guy who threatened to rape her thought.

Now, she did warn Miles, she did so because she thought he was innocent. She was wrong - no question about that, but it's not like she warned him knowing he was guilty.

I'm pretty sure Fitz's actions will be handwaved like Deke's were. Most of the people in the episode showed more concern for Fitz than his victim, after all, so I doubt they're going to turn him into a villain when they're already working on moving past what he did.

I'm still trying to figure out why we even bother putting the team through Trauma if its just going to be handwaved like that its almost like why bother 

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

I'm still trying to figure out why we even bother putting the team through Trauma if its just going to be handwaved like that its almost like why bother 

Because that what the show does? I guess the writers/showrunners all think that it makes good TV but showing it/have the characters do it and not follow through with it ( by either not showing the consequences and/or show/Tell things in a timely maner. Or even just handwave away) does not, in my opinion, make good TV. Tell you the truth I think it doesn't  even make good fiction.

Edited April 2, 2018 by TVSpectator

[Ceindreadh]

11 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

It won't be the first time that the she left him. She left him when he had brain damage for 6+ months.

You mean the time she went undercover with Hydra to try and save the world from them?  Yeah, that's being a terrible friend right there (sarcasm)

[kitlee625]

10 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Pfft...they won't do it, IMO. They had better storylines that were ended way too shortly and/or missed total good opportunies. Also forced happy endings is what I think is going to happened.

Agree with this. There should be some kind of fallout from Fitz going all Evil Fitz back there, but I doubt the show will go that way. Already the writers are moving back towards Good Guy Fitz, with everyone (aside from Daisy) defending him last episode. I see it as similar to Deke, where he's done a lot of bad stuff back at the Lighthouse, but now that he's a FitzSimmons descendant and part of the gang, he's a Good Guy. Does anyone else also think that his characterization changed a lot over these past episodes? Obviously he's got the fish out of water thing going on, but he seems a lot goofier and dorkier these past few episodes.

Edited April 2, 2018 by kitlee625