The Soviet Union is No More: Casting News, Story Arc Info

[Addlepated]

Can someone remind me about the listings that appear on the IMdb site.   I know that in the past, I have checked them to see if a certain actor showed up as appearing on a certain episode.  Sometimes, there was no listing that the actor would appear in those future episodes, but in fact they later did appear and the info was updated and the info made current.  My question is what about the opposite?  What if IMdb DOES list the actor as appearing in certain episodes.  Does that mean that they will or could it be a fake out?  IMdb list Alison Wright as appearing in ALL of the remaining episodes this season.  Is this accurate?  Could she be in a dream sequence? Or does she survive to the last episode.  How is that possible?  Just wondering.   

It's my understanding that IMDB is kind of like Wikipedia - anyone can edit it.  Take anything you read there with a shaker of salt.

[sistermagpie]

LOL! When I saw the reference to Better Call Saul I thought, "Claudia's back?"

 

Glad to see we finally get a real KGB heavy hitter too, I wonder who the contact from CENTER is, and if he wants Philip's ass in Russia for a little talk (at the very least) as well as Martha?

 

 

There does seem to be a time jump after next week. It'd be interesting if next week they shipped him off and he was back long before The Day After!

Edited April 26, 2016 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

Who was the person who got hit in the head with a bottle in the previews?  The second time I watched it, it looked like an African American female standing in a kitchen.  Who is it?  The plant worker who Elizabeth worked for money a couple of seasons ago?

[Moose135]

23 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Who was the person who got hit in the head with a bottle in the previews?  The second time I watched it, it looked like an African American female standing in a kitchen.  Who is it?  The plant worker who Elizabeth worked for money a couple of seasons ago?

Yes, that's who it looked like to me.

[SunnyBeBe]

Hmm.....I wonder what happened to bring that thing back into the forefront.  Or, I guess it could be someone else completely.  

[Anela]

I thought this was just for casting news.  Does anyone know what the "patty" operation is? I hope it isn't what I think it is. :( It's from a description from an upcoming episode. 

[sistermagpie]

On 5/2/2016 at 8:25 PM, Anela said:

I thought this was just for casting news. Does anyone know what the "patty" operation is.

It's just the operation Elizabeth is running with Mary Kay and Young Hee. Her name is "Patty" when she does that in that character.

Anybody else see the pictures from next week (David Copperfield?).  My guess is the time jump takes place mid-episode, because Pastor Tim's wife Alice is very pregnant. It also looks like they're going for Fall.

[TimWil]

I believe rumors that Agent Gaad is toast as of the next episode and the time jump will give us his first look at his successor in the job.

[Inquisitionist]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 at 9:17 PM, sistermagpie said:

There does seem to be a time jump after next week. It'd be interesting if next week they shipped him off and he was back long before The Day After!

Sorry, I missed the clue that there's a time jump.  What's the basis for this?  Thanks!

[scartact]

1 hour ago, Inquisitionist said:

Sorry, I missed the clue that there's a time jump.  What's the basis for this?  Thanks!

The implication of the time jump is because this week's episode title is based on a TV special that aired April 1983, while the following episode is named after a TV movie that aired November 1983.

[Umbelina]

http://www.vulture.com/2016/05/americans-showrunners-david-copperfield-episode.html

Long interview with the showrunners.  This is the part I think may be quite a spoiler, at least, if they still intend this type of show ending.
 

Quote

 

Let’s talk about the time jump. The show is pretty fascinating in the way it deals with time because it can move quite slowly over the course of a season, then it can suddenly spring months ahead, like it did in this episode. What is your general philosophy in dealing with time? And what was behind the jump here?

JW: I think to a certain degree, our philosophy is to be true to our story and what our story dictates. We’ve found that our story itself has more philosophy than we do. Or we should say, our story has its own plan. And our story tends to move slowly through time. It tends to want to be told in almost real time, so that very little time passes between episodes and over the course of the season. Usually we get through a couple of months. Then also, because of the way our seasons end, it becomes very hard to cast any time between seasons.

I remember when we started this show we thought, boy, it would be great to end the series with a collapse of the Soviet Union. Which would’ve meant it would’ve been a ten-year show. And after we passed just two years in three seasons, we were like, “Well, that’s going to be tough.”

JF: We called John Landgraf and said, “Look, we need 16 seasons.” (Laughs.)

 

Right after that though, they begin to talk about the time jump this time.  They really could end it that way if they choose to, which would be kind of fantastic really.  Even if it was more of "Where are they now?" or "5 years later" and a 10 minute scene about that at the end.

[mattie0808]

I remember when we started this show we thought, boy, it would be great to end the series with a collapse of the Soviet Union.

More than Stan finding out about his neighbors, more than almost anything else, I just flat-out NEED to see Elizabeth's reaction to the collapse of the Soviet Union. They can send all of the characters through a wormhole to do it, or have the last defense contractor mark actually be creating a time machine instead of missile defense, I don't care. Wherever she is in her life and whatever she's doing at that point, I absolutely HAVE to see it, lol. Hell, do two jumps, to the beginning of the end of the Warsaw Pact with the Revolutions of 1989, and then to the dissolution of the Soviet Union itself in 1991.

[crgirl412]

5 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

 

More than Stan finding out about his neighbors, more than almost anything else, I just flat-out NEED to see Elizabeth's reaction to the collapse of the Soviet Union. They can send all of the characters through a wormhole to do it, or have the last defense contractor mark actually be creating a time machine instead of missile defense, I don't care. Wherever she is in her life and whatever she's doing at that point, I absolutely HAVE to see it, lol. Hell, do two jumps, to the beginning of the end of the Warsaw Pact with the Revolutions of 1989, and then to the dissolution of the Soviet Union itself in 1991.

Me too!!  I want to see Gabriel's, Claudia's and especially Elizabeth's face.  I want to know IRL what the sleepers did when it happened.  I can't even imagine what they felt.  I wonder if anyone has written a book?  I'll so some research.

[scrb]

Yeah it sounds like the show runners have a specific endgame in mind.

Even before the fall, Gorbachev was a huge figure across the world.  How would they not have a strong opinion about him and the changes which were going on in the late '80s in their motherland?

Maybe they could have a montage like the ending of Six Feet Under, where you see them reacting.  Probably when the Berlin Wall came down, Elizabeth had a stroke, couldn't speak any more.

[scrb]

It's interesting that every Soviet character seems to think of the Afghanistan war as a horrible thing that exacts a heavy toll on their families.  Oleg loses a brother and Tatiana may have a brother called up while Philip had his son called to duty.

One of the missions the center sends Philip and Elizabeth on involves penetrating the CIA agents involved in the planning and aid to Afghan resistance.  Philip kills off mujahideen who've come to American to get US support for their war against the Soviets.

Yet in the US, that war was widely seen as Soviet aggression against a defenseless country, which is how Carter organized the olympic boycott.  We wished for the Soviets to suffer the same fate as we did in Vietnam.  I didn't see any of the Rambo movies but at least one of them involves killing Soviets in Afghanistan.

None of the Russian characters express any opposition to the war, other than how it may not be worth the sacrifices of their family members.  Of course there wasn't going to be strong anti-war opposition that would be anything like the anti-war movement in the US.  But it's interesting divergence in how the Soviets and Americans saw the same event differently.  Kind of like the Reagan assassination attempt, which made the Soviets fear a coup and a more aggressive successor possibly launching a war against the USSR -- Philip and Elizabeth had to find out if the US was going to launch a war.

[madam magpie]

Expressing concern about the ethics of the war in Afghanistan would be to question the govt. Good Soviets (and scared Soviets) didn't do that. Communism was to be spread throughout the world. But losing people close to you would wear on anyone, and even if you supported the idea of spreading communism with war, you might not want your kid or brother on the front lines. Also, comparatively speaking, Soviet casualties in the Afghan war were a lot lower than ours in Vietnam. I think it would be more comparable to our recent Afghan/Iraq invasions than Vietnam, actually (though I believe the Soviets lost more people in Afghanistan than we have).

[scrb]

I didn't articulate it well.

I just meant it was striking how the Russian characters seem to approach the war with dread because of the relatives involved, whereas outside the Eastern Bloc, that was was widely seen as the evil empire (not in the Ronald Reagan sense but more like an archetypal overpowering evil, like the empire in Star Wars) crushing a smaller, poor country.

Just the perceptual difference is remarkable, like the way Philip and Elizabeth believed, as did their minders, that the assassination attempt on Reagan could lead to a coup and an attack by the US.  For all the years they lived here, they seemed to be be tone deaf to American politics and whether Americans would be that belligerent.

[madam magpie]

31 minutes ago, scrb said:

I didn't articulate it well.

I just meant it was striking how the Russian characters seem to approach the war with dread because of the relatives involved, whereas outside the Eastern Bloc, that was was widely seen as the evil empire (not in the Ronald Reagan sense but more like an archetypal overpowering evil, like the empire in Star Wars) crushing a smaller, poor country.

Just the perceptual difference is remarkable, like the way Philip and Elizabeth believed, as did their minders, that the assassination attempt on Reagan could lead to a coup and an attack by the US.  For all the years they lived here, they seemed to be be tone deaf to American politics and whether Americans would be that belligerent.

Perception is always the tricky part of history, though, isn't it? I mean, lots of people thought our wars in Iraq were justified, for instance, but lots of others (in and outside the US) saw them as a bigger country picking on a weaker one. 

I think a lot of people did initially freak out when Reagan was shot and thought something huge might be coming. Wasn't there all kinds of rumor and speculation about whether he'd died already? And then he waved from his hospital window to show everyone that he hadn't been killed? Or do I remember that wrong?

I do think you're right that Elizabeth sees possible coups/uprisings in American culture where there would never be any. That came up in one episode early on, and Philip said as much. (I forget the details.) It's a nice touch on the part of the writers because on some level, of course she'd be like that. She comes from a country set up via a coup in recent memory, and her cultural understanding of Americans has never been quite right. Philip's much better at that.

[Moose135]

11 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I think a lot of people did initially freak out when Reagan was shot and thought something huge might be coming. Wasn't there all kinds of rumor and speculation about whether he'd died already? And then he waved from his hospital window to show everyone that he hadn't been killed? Or do I remember that wrong?

Certainly there was much concern over the shooting, but I don't remember rumors about Reagan dying - there were early, erroneous reports about Press Secretary Jim Brady dying that afternoon, but I don't remember the same about Reagan.  I do remember him waving from the window, but that was more to show the public he was doing well, not so much that he was alive at all.

[madam magpie]

8 hours ago, Moose135 said:

Certainly there was much concern over the shooting, but I don't remember rumors about Reagan dying - there were early, erroneous reports about Press Secretary Jim Brady dying that afternoon, but I don't remember the same about Reagan.  I do remember him waving from the window, but that was more to show the public he was doing well, not so much that he was alive at all.

There was a whole thing where the Sec of State proclaimed that he was in charge, though, instead of the VP and even though no one invoked the rules of succession. That fueled the conspiracy freak-out about a coup. It didn't last long, of course, because we don't do coups, but I could see why the Soviets would have been on high alert as a result.

[BW Manilowe]

19 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Perception is always the tricky part of history, though, isn't it? I mean, lots of people thought our wars in Iraq were justified, for instance, but lots of others (in and outside the US) saw them as a bigger country picking on a weaker one. 

I think a lot of people did initially freak out when Reagan was shot and thought something huge might be coming. Wasn't there all kinds of rumor and speculation about whether he'd died already? And then he waved from his hospital window to show everyone that he hadn't been killed? Or do I remember that wrong?

I do think you're right that Elizabeth sees possible coups/uprisings in American culture where there would never be any. That came up in one episode early on, and Philip said as much. (I forget the details.) It's a nice touch on the part of the writers because on some level, of course she'd be like that. She comes from a country set up via a coup in recent memory, and her cultural understanding of Americans has never been quite right. Philip's much better at that.

It was in the episode which included the Reagan shooting, which also included 1 of Elizabeth & Philip's first attempts to be together after they realized they had real feelings for each other. They, for some reason, decided to go to a hotel to consummate things & when they went downstairs to check out afterwards, special news coverage of the shooting was on a TV in the lobby. Elizabeth thought there was gonna be a US government coup because of General Alexander Haig's (then the Secretary of State, but still often also referred to by his military title of "General") statement to the press that he was "in control, here, at the White House" after the shooting as then Vice President George Bush, Senior, was on a trip to Texas (I think), for a speech or something, at the time of the shooting. He was on his way back to DC in Air Force II, but hadn't yet arrived. Since the USSR often/normally changed governments via military coups, the statement made by a (former) US military General after the shooting, & its wording, made Elizabeth think a military coup was in progress involving the US government. Philip later assured her there wasn't.

[madam magpie]

2 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

It was in the episode which included the Reagan shooting, which also included 1 of Elizabeth & Philip's first attempts to be together after they realized they had real feelings for each other. They, for some reason, decided to go to a hotel to consummate things & when they went downstairs to check out afterwards, special news coverage of the shooting was on a TV in the lobby. Elizabeth thought there was gonna be a US government coup because of General Alexander Haig's (then the Secretary of State, but still often also referred to by his military title of "General") statement to the press that he was "in control, here, at the White House" after the shooting as then Vice President George Bush, Senior, was on a trip to Texas (I think), for a speech or something, at the time of the shooting. He was on his way back to DC in Air Force II, but hadn't yet arrived. Since the USSR often/normally changed governments via military coups, the statement made by a (former) US military General after the shooting, & its wording, made Elizabeth think a military coup was in progress involving the US government. Philip later assured her there wasn't.

Right! Yes, I remember now.

Haig...that was the Sec of State. I'm so bad with names. This show is harder than War and Peace for me sometimes. (OK, not really. But still!)

[JennyMominFL]

On 5/8/2016 at 4:57 PM, scrb said:

I

Yet in the US, that war was widely seen as Soviet aggression against a defenseless country, which is how Carter organized the olympic boycott.  We wished for the Soviets to suffer the same fate as we did in Vietnam.  

 

My professor in my last cold war class said that Russians often called Afghanistan the Soviet Vietnam

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

My professor in my last cold war class said that Russians often called Afghanistan the Soviet Vietnam

They kind of called that out on the show when somebody--Claudia or somebody?--said they (the Americans) wanted to make if their (the Russians') Vietnam.

[scrb]

Well if the US was aiding the mujahideen by the time depicted in the show, it probably was like that, though doubtful they had the level of casualties the US did.

[Umbelina]

Oh holy shit those previews!

The Pastor's wife isn't so dumb after all, they left a letter, and if anything happens in Africa it goes to the authorities?

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The Pastor's wife isn't so dumb after all, they left a letter, and if anything happens in Africa it goes to the authorities?

Always wondered if she was the smart one. Is it just her who wrote the letter re: Tim?

I love how that guy is always so accidentally annoying. Of course his wife gets pregnant after years of marriage just when he might get killed. Of course he'd go off on a mission trip and disappear. Though my guess is he'll come back safe and sound but obviously with this kind of threat they have to do something.

[Umbelina]

I missed the other previews I was so shocked by that first one!

So they haven't bought any of it, and feel powerful enough to threaten Philip, and have covered their asses with the letter as well.  Just...WOW.

I guess Paige's little act wasn't enough, or watching "The Day After" made them wake up?

[Umbelina]

The previews.  Holy crap, is the pastor already missing?  The dumbo wife only made a tape, but it doesn't say that it's in safe hands or a safety deposit box to be opened if she dies (too?)  Are they really going to have to choose about killing a pregnant woman as well?  Or just raiding her house to find the tape and scaring her shitless.  Because even if the Pastor "missing" doesn't mean dead, and he comes back, that kind of scare isn't going to go away for her.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

I am amused the writers saw fit to make Alice pregnant and very pregnant at that.  There is no way P & E will take down a very pregnant woman.  I just can't envision it.  I guess it will be played out depending on what is going on with Pastor Tim.  Alice has made assurance plans, but the problem is that she has tipped her hand.  I guess she doesn't think P & E have the capability to search her home and church to find what she has prepared.  Is there more than one copy?  I wonder if this crisis is really something that P & E were no part of.  If so, Paige will sense it.  Maybe, this will be the time that Paige steps forward and develops a plan for taking care of Alice and Pastor Tim and she will play the major role.  Maybe, she has developed some spy skills and she'll be able to resolve it.  

Maybe, she'll go into labor and die in childbirth. Paige intercepts the letter to the authorities and Pastor Tim never returns.  I would put this on Speculation, however, you have to discuss a Spoiler to discuss it. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Because even if the Pastor "missing" doesn't mean dead, and he comes back, that kind of scare isn't going to go away for her.

Yeah, my instinct is that Pastor Tim is "missing" simply because of something silly he did or something like that, but unfortunately Alice has just made it clear that their half-measures don't work because of it. I'll bet she's been wanting Tim to call the authorities the whole time--especially since she's pregnant now.

[Umbelina]

Well, there is that thing Gabe says in the preview, and yes, it could be misdirection, but I think this story needs to come to a head.  It's time.

If Gabe and Center killed the dude (totally possible) then they may already have a plan for preggo wife as well.  I doubt Philip even reported that very threatening (at least to a spy) conversation the Pastor had with Philip at that party, right after THE DAY AFTER aired.  If he did though?  I'm sure the KGB is pretty tired of fucking around with a potentially extremely dangerous, and of zero operational use know-it-all naive Pastor and his blabbermouth wife.

I'm shocked they are still alive. 

Maybe they'll save the baby though.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If Gabe and Center killed the dude (totally possible) then they may already have a plan for preggo wife as well.  I doubt Philip even reported that very threatening (at least to a spy) conversation the Pastor had with Philip at that party, right after THE DAY AFTER aired.  If he did though?  I'm sure the KGB is pretty tired of fucking around with a potentially extremely dangerous, and of zero operational use know-it-all naive Pastor and his blabbermouth wife.

You'd think they'd be smarter about it then, though. Why kill him and let his wife find out about it? If they're going to kill her too they should kill her at the same time. They gave her a chance to not only call the FBI right then but make a tape that could be anywhere.

Gabriel and Elizabeth are I assume talking about Young Hee. He's telling her she's done the hard part by sleeping with (or seeming to sleep with) Don and she's saying the hard part is hurting Young Hee using that.

Love that Paige is still not quite getting it, asking her parents if "we might have to leave" means that her parents will leave. Like...how is she picturing that working? Is she already planning to live independently with her parents sending her money or something? Does she think they're just talking about going away temporarily? Does she think foster care is no big thing?

Or does she still not get her life's potentially about to disappear?

[scrb]

There's no way to continually portray P & E sympathetically if they're merely killing to preserve their cover, as opposed to self-defense or whatever.

Elizabeth said more than once that her work is making the world better.  How is killing innocent people doing that?  Because the US is up to so much no good that she has to do whatever it takes to give her country the edge to fight against the US?

How can they be shown to be decent human beings just fighting for a cause they believe in if it requires them to kill so many bystanders?

It's like jihadists rationalizing the killing of anyone who's not only not Muslim but a member of a specific sect of Islam where all the true-believers think they're waging holy war on all the non-believers.

Philip has some PTSD about his childhood murder but what about the dozens of other bodies since that time?  The thing is, many of his murders were committed with his hands, making them much more personal and intense acts than say US soldiers being in fire battles with modern weapons in Afghanistan and dealing with PTSD for years.

If Elizabeth isn't feeling at all broken from all the killing she's done or the disconnected honeypot sex, what does it say about her?

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

You'd think they'd be smarter about it then, though. Why kill him and let his wife find out about it? If they're going to kill her too they should kill her at the same time. They gave her a chance to not only call the FBI right then but make a tape that could be anywhere.

Maybe they thought his death was arranged in a way that would look completely accidental to his wife?  But you are right of course, they would probably take them both out at the same time.  I'm glad it's finally coming to a head though! 

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Gabriel and Elizabeth are I assume talking about Young Hee. He's telling her she's done the hard part by sleeping with (or seeming to sleep with) Don and she's saying the hard part is hurting Young Hee using that.

Yeah, you are right, oops.  Although, why would pretending to sleep with Don be "the hard part?"  Sorry, but the hard part definitely seems ahead of her!

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Love that Paige is still not quite getting it, asking her parents if "we might have to leave" means that her parents will leave. Like...how is she picturing that working? Is she already planning to live independently with her parents sending her money or something? Does she think they're just talking about going away temporarily? Does she think foster care is no big thing?

Or does she still not get her life's potentially about to disappear?

She is just that stupid.  I'm not sure how I feel about the way they are portraying Paige, at first I thought, "oh come ON now" because at 15, I was much smarter and more informed, so I thought they were dumbing down the character.  Then I read an interview with the actress and realized, "yup, some 15 year olds really have no clue whatsoever."

Quote

Elizabeth said more than once that her work is making the world better.  How is killing innocent people doing that?  Because the US is up to so much no good that she has to do whatever it takes to give her country the edge to fight against the US?

How can they be shown to be decent human beings just fighting for a cause they believe in if it requires them to kill so many bystanders?

Elizabeth believes that the United States is dangerous to her people and her country, so yes, she will do whatever it takes.  It's a "cold" war, but it's still a war.  As far as "killing so many bystanders" yes, they've killed a few, how many innocent bystanders did our bombs kill?  As she pointed out, we are the only nation to ever actually use nukes.  On civilians.

I think we've seen both Philip and Elizabeth suffer the same side effects soldiers in all armies may suffer after killing people.  In their minds, they ARE soldiers too.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She is just that stupid.  I'm not sure how I feel about the way they are portraying Paige, at first I thought, "oh come ON now" because at 15, I was much smarter and more informed, so I thought they were dumbing down the character.  Then I read an interview with the actress and realized, "yup, some 15 year olds really have no clue whatsoever."

That's good to know because yeah, there are times where I think...well, now she's figured it out. Only to see that she still doesn't get it. Like she'll say something this clueless. Then Elizabeth lays out what she's going to do last episode and some people think she's just being a terrible mother. Or they think it's P&E who are clueless for not seeing how this is too hard for her. As if there's some alternative. 

That's interesting about interviews--do you mean Holly Taylor thinks Paige is being reasonable in her reactions? It's funny because sometimes people go on and on about how smart Paige is--and in many ways she certainly is, she probably gets good grades--and yet she's also so naive. Also I remember one person saying that who seemed to think she was much smarter than her parents and I was thinking wow, you know, her parents seem like they were very accomplished by her age. She's now 16, the age when they were recruited. I'll bet their life was more rigorous than even Paige when she's volunteering at church and also doing her homework!

[madam magpie]

I think that if, when I was 15, my mother told me she was actually a Soviet spy but that she didn't do bad stuff, I'd have believed it. It would be unfathomable to me, even now, that my mother stalked, kidnapped, and murdered people. It would also have been completely out of my frame of reference that we'd have to disappear completely ever. So I don't think it's at all strange or dumb that Paige doesn't grasp the intricacies of all of this.

What I have always struggled to buy, though, is that she told someone outside her family. I would have been way too scared for that.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

 

I think that if, when I was 15, my mother told me she was actually a Soviet spy but that she didn't do bad stuff, I'd have believed it. It would be unfathomable to me, even now, that my mother stalked, kidnapped, and murdered people. It would also have been completely out of my frame of reference that we'd have to disappear completely ever. So I don't think it's at all strange or dumb that Paige doesn't grasp the intricacies of all of this.

 

It's not that part--it's totally normal for her to not be able to picture her nice parents doing anything like that. (And let's face it, plenty of spies DON'T do that so she's not dumb at all to not think they're assassins.)

It's that she seems to not get the danger of telling other people or what it would mean for your parents to be outed as Russian spies. They told her flat-out that they will go to jail, but she doesn't seem to get that Pastor Tim or Alice might make that happen and that this would mean the end of her own life as she knows it. Even in the previews it seems like she's back to coming to terms with who her parents are or might stand for. So when Philip says the might have to leave she doesn't get what he means. She has moments of panic like in Chloro...the quarantine episode when her parents actually break routine and don't come home. But then she's back to the whole thing being a chore for her.

It reminds me of a comedian once who was talking about falling asleep at the wheel and how it's so scary but then you do it again thirty seconds later.

[madam magpie]

I do think she's not scared enough, but I'm not sure why that is. It may be that she doesn't want to see it. The idea of losing her parents or family or life she knows for good would, I think, also be unfathomable. And if they are what they claim (good people working for world peace who happen to be Russians), why should she be scared? They kind of muted the danger by lying about what they're really doing, which I get but also sends mixed signals.

That said, I was scared of everything and kept lots of family secrets and never would have told, so Paige's reaction is hard for me. I'm not sure it's dumb, though.

[Umbelina]

I should qualify what I said up there, yes, I was much smarter than Paige about many things, but I was still a normal 15 year old naive idiot about many other things, including sex.  I just read a lot, and had a tougher upbringing than Paige.  Frankly, if my parents had told me they were Russian spies, I might have simply walked to the nearest FBI office and turned them in, although, I didn't trust the FBI either, so there is that.

Nah, my concern for my younger brothers and sisters would have prevented me, I wouldn't have wanted to see them in Foster Care, which is why I wouldn't be blabbing that information to anyone, at all, ever, until I was 18 and legally able to get custody of them.

Anyway, I know I would be thinking of things like that, while Paige is just so over the top naive it rubs me the wrong way.  Are kids like that?  Sure, some of them, and Paige is apparently one of those.

[Umbelina]

Is that the Pastor in a cell somewhere, not dead, but perhaps captured?

That could keep his wife alive and silent.  "Tell, and he's a dead man."  Still, that seems overly generous of the KGB, and also a dangerously loose end to keep Mrs. Pastor alive and uncaptured.

[albaniantv]

Maybe the portrayal of Paige as knowing one day and naive the next and definitely not having the same big picture as adults is realistic for some teens. It's pretty accurate for the ones I am around right now --bragging about speed of their cars one day, blown away by a play about concussion the next day, annoyed by their grandfather with Alzheimer's repetition at night, then kind to him the next morning, sneering at people with low paying jobs one day, thrilled they were hired by Safeway the very next day!!!. They go in/out, in/out like lightbulbs and their big picture, if they actually have one (some research shows even 17 year olds have under-developed brains) is not as filled in a map as we would like. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Is that the Pastor in a cell somewhere, not dead, but perhaps captured?

I think that may be an old picture of him from a previous episode, like where he's in his office at night and that's why it looks blue.

 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Anyway, I know I would be thinking of things like that, while Paige is just so over the top naive it rubs me the wrong way.  Are kids like that?  Sure, some of them, and Paige is apparently one of those.

And Pastor Tim and Alice don't seem to be helping.

[SunnyBeBe]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that may be an old picture of him from a previous episode, like where he's in his office at night and that's why it looks blue.

 

 

Oh, I thought the scene with Pastor Tim showed him sitting at a table in an interview room, like he was being questioned.  But, who want to question him?  The KGB knows he's a huge risk and if it wasn't for P & E would have taken him and Alice out long ago. 

Maybe the only way out, short of killing them both, after the baby is born, I hope is to have some fake FBI agents show up and talk to them in a top secret way and explain that P & E are undercover agents of the US government and are so secret that Paige was not even told the truth.  And that Alice and Pastor Tim have to play along with this story for everyone's safety.  

[Umbelina]

I'm bringing this here, even though it's only from previews, so not really a spoiler, more speculation. 

Looks like Don may call Elizabeth's bluff next week.  I hope so.  I still don't see how "I'm pregnant" is going to successfully lead to "Give me the level four access codes" without Don turning her in.  Is he smart enough to not threaten her with that, and simply do it?  Again, I hope so, because if he threatens her he's a dead man.  

So, he turns her in, but somehow Hans or another observer from the team Gabe is putting together (that was a clever little drop in this episode) notice something odd about things, maybe see an FBI presence around Don, or the times change on the observation teams--anyway, SOMETHING to warn Elizabeth off but it's a very close call?

I'd love to see a potential asset turn into bad news, and I think Don is a VERY likely candidate for that.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'd love to see a potential asset turn into bad news, and I think Don is a VERY likely candidate for that.

Yeah, like I find myself picturing--with no idea how this would happen or anything--Elizabeth being distraught over hurting Young Hee and the whole thing just leading to a clusterfuck where William is killed or whatever too. So two friendships with one stone!

[Umbelina]

Well, that's the other thing.  William seems ripe for defecting, or simply running.  He is SO over this shit, he may not like the Americans but he's not too keen on the Russians either.  He strikes me as a pragmatic guy, and also, considering he hasn't done much of anything for 25 years, a good candidate to actually get a deal from the Justice Department.  He hasn't killed anyone, or turned anyone, but he has information to offer, and he's smart enough to offer it for a specific payoff and relocation.  They would try to turn him though, but I think he's the kind that would just tell them no, but here's what I can give you.  Would he give up Gabe to be out of this once and for all?  Probably.  He still doesn't really know the Jennings cover names, but he's seen them both in various disguises and he does know they are married.

Heck, did Philip tell him he has two kids?  I can't remember.  That would be bad for the Jennings.

I think it's too soon for them to be caught, but I think this may be a very close call with Don, one that they escape, but barely.  They would also have a much better description of Elizabeth, since Young Hee and her family have spent so much time with her.  I'm sure by now Young Hee knows everything from her dress size to the precise color of her eyes, and any other moles or marks on her, shoe size, heck!  She could even have her fingerprints if Elizabeth doesn't catch on until after a few more home visits.  Or Don could have collected them from her glass at dinner, etc.

I really hope we have two more seasons, but we may not.  The rope for the nooses has been purchased, if not knotted yet.

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Would he give up Gabe to be out of this once and for all?  Probably.  He still doesn't really know the Jennings cover names, but he's seen them both in various disguises and he does know they are married.

I don't know if he would. Under the right circumstances maybe, but he's been doing this for 25 years and hasn't defected yet. Wouldn't it just give him more stress?

[hellmouse]

William has seen both Elizabeth and Philip out of disguise. He knows they have two kids. I think he even knows their names. It would be bad!

I am curious about the title of the final episode - persona non grata. The internet tells me "In diplomacy, the term persona non grata (Latin, plural: personae non gratae), literally meaning "Person of no Status" refers to a foreign person whose entering or remaining in a particular country is prohibited by that country's government."

Could that refer to Don - maybe the level 4 access gets traced back to him and he gets sent back to Korea? 

Or maybe Oleg? Maybe Stan threatens him?

I do think that pregnancy is higher stakes than sex, but I still don't see how it leads to level 4 access codes. "I'll have an abortion if you give me codes to get access to your lab." It just doesn't make sense to me. But this show always surprises me. 

[Umbelina]

He saw them out of their disguises during the whole bio sickness thing, right?  I'd forgotten that, and that he knows their real names.

He just seems overly ripe for the picking to me, he's spent 25 years basically trying to do nothing, but he's not living comfortably either, his place is covered in plastic, hardly the American Dream luring him.  It just feels like he's over it, and if he could get out of both sides of this cold war, he'd jump at that.  Because his "crimes" are just about non-existent, I could see that happening.

Lots of wild cards in the air right now for the Jennings.

• Pastor and his wife know, and could expose them at any minute, and what's more, she could, even if the Pastor gets into a legitimate car accident and dies.
• William's loyalty is wavering, and he didn't seem that interested in this new op to begin with.
• Don may use his, no doubt extensive security training to spot Elizabeth's ploy her, in fact, I can't see him logically doing anything else.
• Stan's going to be on a focused tear now, because of Gaad, meanwhile, next week he meets the Pastor/Wife at dinner, AND his kid is now getting close to both of the Jennings kids.  Also, the FBI has Philip's prints now right?
• Paige just made it abundantly clear that she is extremely unhappy at the idea of "running" to live in Russia.