PODCAST S02.E02 Go Pirates!: Say, What's Different About You?

[Primetimer]

The bus driver's daughter convinces the Mars family to take on yet another consuming case in S02.E02.

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[Primetimer]

But Duncan just has the one, again, some more, as we collect the most important screengrabs from 'Driver Ed.'

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[Libby521]

The body on the beach is not the driver!

[John Ramos]

The body on the beach is not the driver!

SPOILER

[BBHN]

Quote

Kevin Smith: meh. Sweatshirt: yes please.

So much awesome in one sweatshirt.

Quote

Upset about Ed's death, or having to wear this hiddy cardigan?

So much fug in one cardigan.

Quote

Giving new meaning to the term "sporting some wood."

Wood sporting wood. He's just like Groot! Except, even Groot had more charm, depth, and range of emotions...

[Affogato]

These are interesting screen grabs, an improvement ver the last set. Variety in topic and tone. Good job. I enjoyed them. 

The porsche getting hit is inevitable. 

Veronica is still learning how to manage people. 

How do parents and children interact physically without looking squicky after puberty? Awkward handshakes?

Edited December 9, 2017 by Affogato

[Hotaru]

The issue with Duncan is not just wooden acting.

It's absolutely horrendous writing that is ruining Veronica's character too. Duncan is never made to face any consequences for his actions. No, Sarah, it's not because he is supposed to be bland nice guy, because Duncan did maybe 2 nice things in the course of his run on the show. 

Then I have issue with you, @Sarah D. Bunting, totally ignoring the fact that Veronica is a rape victim! Of course, she has issues with sex! Of course, Logan would not pressure her. Everything we know about Logan tells us that he doesn't value sex very much and that he has enough of emotional intuition to know that sex is complicated for Veronica. And honey, Veronica doesn't remember her rape(and yes, Duncan did rape her, there is no other plausible explanation, but I'll save my preaching on this subject) or "sex" with Duncan, why would she treat her pathetic sex with Duncan as anything but their first time?

8 hours ago, John Ramos said:

SPOILER

This is not a spoiler John, I've never heard anyone think that body is Ed the driver of the bus until I listened to your podcast! I don't know why you would conclude that at all, this is on you not on @Libby521!

[Clare]

It's so different to watch Jackie now.  I love Tessa Thompson.  I remember originally hating her.  I have to admit now if I was trying to order coffee and the barista was behind the counter having a conversation with her boyfriend how annoying that would be.  Jackie's not wrong LOL. 

I love Logan getting his groove on with Kendall,  those scene made me laugh.  You are right,  he's definitely the product of two actors.  He's enjoys the messy situations.  JD and KB have nutso chemistry though.  The scene at the hotel in the hallway was hotter than the sex scenes with their partners.

Even though I've watched this season before I don't remember all the specific of the mystery.  I'm totally blank on how the motorcycle gang and the overall mystery tie together.  Can't wait to get into it more. 

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Hotaru said:

The issue with Duncan is not just wooden acting.

It's absolutely horrendous writing that is ruining Veronica's character too. Duncan is never made to face any consequences for his actions. No, Sarah, it's not because he is supposed to be bland nice guy, because Duncan did maybe 2 nice things in the course of his run on the show. 

Then I have issue with you, @Sarah D. Bunting, totally ignoring the fact that Veronica is a rape victim! Of course, she has issues with sex! Of course, Logan would not pressure her. Everything we know about Logan tells us that he doesn't value sex very much and that he has enough of emotional intuition to know that sex is complicated for Veronica. And honey, Veronica doesn't remember her rape(and yes, Duncan did rape her, there is no other plausible explanation, but I'll save my preaching on this subject) or "sex" with Duncan, why would she treat her pathetic sex with Duncan as anything but their first time?

This is not a spoiler John, I've never heard anyone think that body is Ed the driver of the bus until I listened to your podcast! I don't know why you would conclude that at all, this is on you not on @Libby521!

This is the thing that probably interests me about Veronica Mars, more than the show. The feeling that I'm watching a different show than other people and yet, oddly, am confident I'm watching the show on the screen (understanding that I can be wrong about this and that, but pretty sure I'm getting the gist). 

Understand, I'm a Veronica and Logan shipper in the context of the show, I just think it is a tragedy--and not a tragedy where I feel like taking sides and defending one or the other. I just don't think there is any way to get them together without changing them into different people. At this time. And I'm a little shaky on ten years later, but Logan being gone most of the time during the books helps, I guess.

Duncan actually faces the consequences of his actions:

Spoiler

He is forced to become a fugitive, raising a child. Them's some mighty fine consequences.

I doubt Duncan would have been convicted of rape, and there are often in rape laws, even fairly enlightened ones, provisions to help someone who may be unable to judge if consent has been given. On the other hand, yeah, Veronica is moving on by telling herself she wasn't raped and this is one way to do it. I think it is something she'd do.

Veronica didn't have sex with Duncan when Lilly and Logan were getting it on, was a virgin prior to Shelley Pomeroy's party, doesn't have sex with Logan during their brief period of togetherness in season one , waits to get it on with Duncan until the bus crash makes her determined to take life in both hands.

Spoiler

later doesn't have sex with Piz in season 3. I suspect she has sex with Logan sooner than she wants between season two and three because she thinks he is experienced and requires it and she is too insecure to talk to him about her needs (and he probably isn't asking). 

Her not having sex with Logan isn't his emotional sensitivity, which is questionable:

Spoiler

In the movie it is pretty clear he has gone through therapy and learned not to trust his first responses. Check out how he looks when she throws herself at him just before they have sex, for one example. How hesitant and puzzled he is during the car ride. This makes sense given his background, but emotional intelligence is not his strong suit at any point in the show. Logan's first responses are fight and flight, lash out or run into a bottle. He has to learn to work around them.

It is her insecurity and her nervousness about that kind of intimacy.

Although wonderfully funny it seems to me Logan's zingers in the hall way are really a return to Logan the bully, only this time his attack on her sexual insecurity, considering he knows about the rape, is pretty nasty. It may be the worst thing he has done to her, because now he knows enough about her to hurt her badly. It is also understandable given that she hurt and abandoned him AGAIN and he is too wounded to pay attention to anyone except himself, which only gets worse as the life hits keep coming. Logan is a mess.

Yes, Veronica is as well, but she has more emotional support from others and isn't afraid to take what she can get, even from Duncan. 

Spoiler

But looking forward this is the set up for why she leaves him over Madison, why Madison's jibes hurt Veronica so much, why she wants real intimacy and conversation and not just sex and likely went into a sexual relationship with him before they'd achieved real intimacy. I'm not saying this isn't normal teenage stuff. 

Logan is a much more interesting character if he isn't perfect, I'm not sure, I'm honesty not sure why anyone would want to trade that character for a cardboard cutout of the perfect boyfriend. Which is what Duncan is, because of his imperfections as an actor, not wood but a standee in his scenes, but one Veronica responds to as a boyfriend.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Affogato

[Affogato]

I guess I should add a few more things.

I like Jackie and enjoyed seeing more of Wallace doing what he learned from Veronica. I guess there were issues with Percy Daggs which may have limited how much they used him, which is too bad. 

I thought the dead man with her name on his hand was pretty creepy. 

I look forward to Duncan's departure further on in the season, although actually this is a really bad thing for Logan. Duncan's relative impassivity allows him to weather Logan's behavior and remain his friend. 

[Clare]

Good photos, Deputy Sacks isn't new though.  He was in several episodes in Season 1.

Dick at the shooting range cracks me up.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Clare

[spaceghostess]

Stellar Picture Show, particularly the call out re: Duncan's Kitschy-Souvenir Highlights of Italy diorama, which I never before noticed, but now need to know WHY. Other notes: Jackie's hair is on point and Duncan's expressions in the Java the Hut stills are classic woodtastic.

Also, am I the only one who's always found Lamb distractingly good looking? It is my no-longer-secret shame.

[Picture It. Sicily]

I guess I should add a few more things.

I like Jackie and enjoyed seeing more of Wallace doing what he learned from Veronica. I guess there were issues with Percy Daggs which may have limited how much they used him, which is too bad. 

I thought the dead man with her name on his hand was pretty creepy. 

I look forward to Duncan's departure further on in the season, although actually this is a really bad thing for Logan. Duncan's relative impassivity allows him to weather Logan's behavior and remain his friend. 

What issues? Can you elaborate?

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, Picture It. Sicily said:

What issues? Can you elaborate?

I’m not remembering the source but remember it seemed credible.

removed actual rumors because I normally don’t gossip and can’t remember source. Not a huge deal anyway. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Affogato

[KAOS Agent]

Wallace disappeared from episodes for budgetary reasons. Rob Thomas said during the summer between S1 and S2 that one actor's episode order had been lowered from his 22 in S1 due to budgetary constraints and it was later revealed to be Percy Daggs. The actor was only contracted to be in 16 episodes in S2 (the 30 seconds he appears in one episode turned that into 17). It's the same reason Logan disappeared for multiple episodes in S1. Jason Dohring was only contracted for a certain number of eps. They didn't have the budget to put him in more, so he was conspicuously absent from episodes where you would expect to see Logan such as "Like a Virgin"

In a Zap2It interview during S2 Rob Thomas said, "People should understand that we're very happy with Percy Daggs and Wallace Fennel. In a perfect world where we had 'Lost's' budget, you'd see him in every episode." The link to the interview is no longer active, but the TWoP boards were awesome about posting this information at the time and the boards for this show are still accessible if you know where to look. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I think we mentioned this in passing in S1 podcasts -- that a given character "should" show up but doesn't, or that we haven't seen Weevil in what seems like months. On other shows there's some room for speculation but here it's usually a budget/contract thing.

[BBHN]

Weevil was definitely someone who should have been a recurring character...which, he kind of was, in the end.

[John Potts]

Love seeing Wallace getting into some private dick action (and maybe in private getting... nevermind). Good to see that, while he may be Veronica's bitch, he has been paying attention!

I wasn't sure if we were meant to think that (Big) Dick Casablanca suspected Logan was screwing his wife and that he was not so subtly warning Logan off. Given his later actions, I'd guess not, but it seemed that way at the time.

The inter-Season timeline seems incredibly vague (and yet packed). So apparently, after the S1 Finale, V started a relationship with Logan (but they never slept together, which surprises me) until he was arraigned (is that the right word?) and the case against him dismissed. Then we have a class war in Neptune, V dumps Logan, Duncan starts stalking her and then they start dating (apparently behind her dad's back... for some reason). Meanwhile, Keith has (ghost) written a book which has been published and he's now touting on local talk shows. Meanwhile Haaron has been languishing in jail awaiting HIS trial for murder/attempted murders but despite having access to millionaire lawyers he's not made bail... is that right? It seems like there's a whole load of offscreen action that could easily have been elaborated onscreen which would have been better than the way the bus crash mystery was dealt with his Season (I know, everyone's a critic and how many shows have I written, but still!).

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Wallace disappeared from episodes for budgetary reasons. Rob Thomas said during the summer between S1 and S2 that one actor's episode order had been lowered from his 22 in S1 due to budgetary constraints and it was later revealed to be Percy Daggs. The actor was only contracted to be in 16 episodes in S2 (the 30 seconds he appears in one episode turned that into 17). It's the same reason Logan disappeared for multiple episodes in S1. Jason Dohring was only contracted for a certain number of eps. They didn't have the budget to put him in more, so he was conspicuously absent from episodes where you would expect to see Logan such as "Like a Virgin"

In a Zap2It interview during S2 Rob Thomas said, "People should understand that we're very happy with Percy Daggs and Wallace Fennel. In a perfect world where we had 'Lost's' budget, you'd see him in every episode." The link to the interview is no longer active, but the TWoP boards were awesome about posting this information at the time and the boards for this show are still accessible if you know where to look. 

I knew that   I got this somewhere else., I wasn’t assuming on the basis of his trip to Chicago. I understand the contractual stuff  damned if I can remember where  

I don’t think Thomas gives away much information and says what people want to hear, Compared to some other show runners. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

Love seeing Wallace getting into some private dick action (and maybe in private getting... nevermind). Good to see that, while he may be Veronica's bitch, he has been paying attention!

I wasn't sure if we were meant to think that (Big) Dick Casablanca suspected Logan was screwing his wife and that he was not so subtly warning Logan off. Given his later actions, I'd guess not, but it seemed that way at the time.

The inter-Season timeline seems incredibly vague (and yet packed). So apparently, after the S1 Finale, V started a relationship with Logan (but they never slept together, which surprises me) until he was arraigned (is that the right word?) and the case against him dismissed. Then we have a class war in Neptune, V dumps Logan, Duncan starts stalking her and then they start dating (apparently behind her dad's back... for some reason). Meanwhile, Keith has (ghost) written a book which has been published and he's now touting on local talk shows. Meanwhile Haaron has been languishing in jail awaiting HIS trial for murder/attempted murders but despite having access to millionaire lawyers he's not made bail... is that right? It seems like there's a whole load of offscreen action that could easily have been elaborated onscreen which would have been better than the way the bus crash mystery was dealt with his Season (I know, everyone's a critic and how many shows have I written, but still!).

Veronica doesn’t jump into bed with people fast, she needs a push with Duncan  ( life is short)  

I think Keith knew she was going out with Duncan, he was just commenting on the sex, staying out all night.  She’s 18. Some of that puzzled me. Also even odder when she was 19. We never heard anything about rules, it was just ‘my expectation is when you are under my roof you will comport youself as if you are fifteen’. I think it was more Veronica than Keith, more POV that’s what she heard. In the books she moves out pretty quick.  

Duncan was doing his daily reading in the hut when Veronica was going out with Logan. overlap  

The season doesn’t start on the first day of school, a little extra time  for everyone to notice the changes in Veronica  

aarons trial makes no sense, no way  

 

I 

[Rikke]

Regarding the dead guy in the end. He is the guy in the grief porn screen cap in the picture show. He lights Veronica's candle in that scene if I remember correctly and he is wearing the same clothes when the body washes up, so I never once thought he was the driver. Also interesting uniform for a bus driver if it was the case. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Rikke

[Hotaru]

On 12/9/2017 at 6:44 PM, Affogato said:

This is the thing that probably interests me about Veronica Mars, more than the show. The feeling that I'm watching a different show than other people and yet, oddly, am confident I'm watching the show on the screen (understanding that I can be wrong about this and that, but pretty sure I'm getting the gist). 

Understand, I'm a Veronica and Logan shipper in the context of the show, I just think it is a tragedy--and not a tragedy where I feel like taking sides and defending one or the other. I just don't think there is any way to get them together without changing them into different people. At this time. And I'm a little shaky on ten years later, but Logan being gone most of the time during the books helps, I guess.

Duncan actually faces the consequences of his actions:

  Reveal hidden contents

He is forced to become a fugitive, raising a child. Them's some mighty fine consequences.

I doubt Duncan would have been convicted of rape, and there are often in rape laws, even fairly enlightened ones, provisions to help someone who may be unable to judge if consent has been given. On the other hand, yeah, Veronica is moving on by telling herself she wasn't raped and this is one way to do it. I think it is something she'd do.

Veronica didn't have sex with Duncan when Lilly and Logan were getting it on, was a virgin prior to Shelley Pomeroy's party, doesn't have sex with Logan during their brief period of togetherness in season one , waits to get it on with Duncan until the bus crash makes her determined to take life in both hands.

  Reveal hidden contents

later doesn't have sex with Piz in season 3. I suspect she has sex with Logan sooner than she wants between season two and three because she thinks he is experienced and requires it and she is too insecure to talk to him about her needs (and he probably isn't asking). 

Her not having sex with Logan isn't his emotional sensitivity, which is questionable:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the movie it is pretty clear he has gone through therapy and learned not to trust his first responses. Check out how he looks when she throws herself at him just before they have sex, for one example. How hesitant and puzzled he is during the car ride. This makes sense given his background, but emotional intelligence is not his strong suit at any point in the show. Logan's first responses are fight and flight, lash out or run into a bottle. He has to learn to work around them.

It is her insecurity and her nervousness about that kind of intimacy.

Although wonderfully funny it seems to me Logan's zingers in the hall way are really a return to Logan the bully, only this time his attack on her sexual insecurity, considering he knows about the rape, is pretty nasty. It may be the worst thing he has done to her, because now he knows enough about her to hurt her badly. It is also understandable given that she hurt and abandoned him AGAIN and he is too wounded to pay attention to anyone except himself, which only gets worse as the life hits keep coming. Logan is a mess.

Yes, Veronica is as well, but she has more emotional support from others and isn't afraid to take what she can get, even from Duncan. 

  Reveal hidden contents

But looking forward this is the set up for why she leaves him over Madison, why Madison's jibes hurt Veronica so much, why she wants real intimacy and conversation and not just sex and likely went into a sexual relationship with him before they'd achieved real intimacy. I'm not saying this isn't normal teenage stuff. 

Logan is a much more interesting character if he isn't perfect, I'm not sure, I'm honesty not sure why anyone would want to trade that character for a cardboard cutout of the perfect boyfriend. Which is what Duncan is, because of his imperfections as an actor, not wood but a standee in his scenes, but one Veronica responds to as a boyfriend.

I disagree that they need to become different people, if I thought that I would never, ever ship them. They need to go to therapy and learn to deal with things in a healthy way. They don't need to become different people, who they are is compatible. BTW in the movie it's obvious they both went through a lot of therapy and they didn't change who they are as people, they work because they both grew up and healed from the tragedy that was her teen years/90% of his life. 

Your comments at times make me think you don't understand the way storytelling works. 

Spoiler

Running away doesn't work as a consequence in the context of the story. It's a hero's goodbye. He gets to be mourned, noble savior and Veronica's star-crossed love. Besides, for him as a person, I don't think it's a bad thing. He gets to have an excuse for not fulfilling his parent's expectations, he gets to go live in Australia as someone else and have unlimited resources to do what he wants (including order a hit).

Btw I never said that Duncan would be convicted of rape(and especially not in the land of Brock Truner). That doesn't mean what he did wasn't rape. Without including spoilers for this season, we know that Veronica was unconscious before Duncan came into the room(Dick, Beaver and Sean).  We know that Carrie saw them in bed and I quote:"She sad you were naked and on top of me." What in that specific wording indicates consciousness from Veronica? We know Duncan remembers everything that happened that night which indicates that he was less affected by the GHB than the considerably smaller Veronica. We know that Duncan thought Veronica was his sister. We know that Veronica was virgin with no plans to change that fact soon(Homecoming episode). We know that he literally left her unconscious on bed and ignored her when he saw her next. The only account that claims Veronica consented is Duncan and he has every reason to lie and we have every indicator that he is lying. I don't know how much you know about metabolism of GHB in human body but there is no chance that Veronica could appear even remotely sober after she already fell unconscious from the drugs. Best you can do is few seconds of half-mast eyes and slurring speech. If one person is drugged unconscious and another is drunk and wanders into the room and has sex with their unconscious body, that's rape. Having sex with unconscious person is not something you can do unknowingly. So yeah, in most jurisdictions it wouldn't come to indictment but it was still rape.

On 12/11/2017 at 6:47 PM, Affogato said:

Veronica doesn’t jump into bed with people fast, she needs a push with Duncan  ( life is short)  

I think Keith knew she was going out with Duncan, he was just commenting on the sex, staying out all night.  She’s 18. Some of that puzzled me. Also even odder when she was 19. We never heard anything about rules, it was just ‘my expectation is when you are under my roof you will comport youself as if you are fifteen’. I think it was more Veronica than Keith, more POV that’s what she heard. In the books she moves out pretty quick.  

Duncan was doing his daily reading in the hut when Veronica was going out with Logan. overlap  

The season doesn’t start on the first day of school, a little extra time  for everyone to notice the changes in Veronica  

aarons trial makes no sense, no way  

 

I 

That overlap of Duncan coming to The Hut and sitting in Veronica's section and reading while she was with Logan is called stalking. What would you call when and ex boyfriend of yours comes to your workplace every day for no reason and stares at you? This dismissing of Duncan's actions as benign or even desirable is a real problem for the show because they aren't. If you put it in context of real situation, it's borderline criminal. And the way he treats Veronica when they actually get together is emotionally abusive. Duncan is not just benign bland perfect boyfriend and treating him as such is a dangerous for real young women watching. 

As someone who still lives with her single father at 27(it's not that abnormal in Croatia), the difference between a parent and roommate is that parent is still authority to you, no matter how old you are. Even when I turned 18 my father still wanted me to let him know with who and where I'll be overnight. The roommate would only care that you aren't home that night, not where you are and what are you doing. It's not a matter of "acting like you're still fifteen" it's a matter of "I still feel responsible for your well-being and care that you are safe".  When you are adult and move back in(like in the movie), it's more complicated because that authority and concern feels restricting. She moves out fast because it's easier than establishing so many new parameters to their relationship(the working together is already a large adjustment). Me and my father have readjusted to the fact that I'm an adult too by acknowledging that he can't forbid me things or punish me anymore but he has the right for explanations and opinions on my choices. Keith and Veronica are still finding their balance in the books!

I can buy Aaron's situation. It's not the most realistic but it's not the biggest suspension of disbelief this show has asked of me. I think of it as: sure, Aaron has bunch of money but Kanes have more and a more direct influence on judge in the case, so Aaron gets no bail.

[Affogato]

36 minutes ago, Hotaru said:

 

That overlap of Duncan coming to The Hut and sitting in Veronica's section and reading while she was with Logan is called stalking. What would you call when and ex boyfriend of yours comes to your workplace every day for no reason and stares at you? This dismissing of Duncan's actions as benign or even desirable is a real problem for the show because they aren't. If you put it in context of real situation, it's borderline criminal. And the way he treats Veronica when they actually get together is emotionally abusive. Duncan is not just benign bland perfect boyfriend and treating him as such is a dangerous for real young women watching. 

As someone who still lives with her single father at 27(it's not that abnormal in Croatia), the difference between a parent and roommate is that parent is still authority to you, no matter how old you are. Even when I turned 18 my father still wanted me to let him know with who and where I'll be overnight. The roommate would only care that you aren't home that night, not where you are and what are you doing. It's not a matter of "acting like you're still fifteen" it's a matter of "I still feel responsible for your well-being and care that you are safe".  When you are adult and move back in(like in the movie), it's more complicated because that authority and concern feels restricting. She moves out fast because it's easier than establishing so many new parameters to their relationship(the working together is already a large adjustment). Me and my father have readjusted to the fact that I'm an adult too by acknowledging that he can't forbid me things or punish me anymore but he has the right for explanations and opinions on my choices. Keith and Veronica are still finding their balance in the books!

I can buy Aaron's situation. It's not the most realistic but it's not the biggest suspension of disbelief this show has asked of me. I think of it as: sure, Aaron has bunch of money but Kanes have more and a more direct influence on judge in the case, so Aaron gets no bail.

did I quote or respond to you? Sorry I guess :-)

yeah Aaron shrug. You don’t sound like a lawyer either.

Yeah the daughter living at home thing would make more sense if Keith did much hands on parenting. as a general rule you’re correct,  it just is jarring  not because it isn’t reasonable, because it seems out of place to me.

To display a general garment I just walked out of the Shape of Water. A love story. Guillermo del Toro was also heard to comment on one of his other movies, PacificRim, that little girls need to know that not every story is a love story. 

I think Veronica Mars isn’t really a love story. I think them getting together is a noir ending. It may work long term but I suspect she just is mostly single and fighting for justice and he’s on a boat with his navy equivalent of his ‘09er group.

But I hope not of course.

Heres an interesting article about people’s perceptions of a tv character compared to what the character actually is (it is about the original Star Trek, not Veronica Mars):

http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/columns/freshly-rememberd-kirk-drift/