S02.E06: The 20's

[Pallas]

On 11/5/2017 at 10:07 PM, maddie965 said:

That scene is the most perfect definition of what the show is about. 

On 11/6/2017 at 3:09 AM, GSMHvisitor said:

Mine too. I absolutely loved that scene.

Me three, and I just watched it again. I'd forgotten that it begins with Uncle Kevin's coming to his niece's room to apologize for making a crack about death, that scared Annie. We've now seen more of this side of Uncle Kevin, throughout his life. His jokes are observations pushed to the extreme: sharp, observant, gimlet-eyed and undeceived, like a film noir detective. "Dad's trying to keep Kate from feeling too fat, and you're trying to keep Randall from feeling too adopted. Meanwhile, where's Kevin? Oh I know: Kevin's dead."  To me, this is not so different from Kevin's "Randall's finally got the chance to make his move," as Randall shares popcorn solicitously with their mother in a movie theater on the night Kevin's father moved out of the house after weeks of silent fighting with the mother who'd left town the night before, and her return at dawn (so now she's going to be the only one we live with?), because things somehow got worse, overnight. 

Kevin really is the high school quarterback who -- when his parents know he's in his room with the door locked, not doing his homework -- is drawing, not playing video games. He has an actor's ability to take a character and twist the context 45 degrees in either direction, and see what that looks like. What happens when the screws are tightened, or what happens when you break the seal.

What's intriguing about the flashbacks to son-and-brother Kevin during Uncle Kevin's voice-over is that each brief clip resolves a scene we've seen before and thought we got. At the pool, not-dead Jack stands waist-deep and tosses a football to also-not-dead Kevin, all alone in the shallow end. Later, Rebecca sitting at the edge of the pool, near Kate, tosses the ball to Jack, now crouched chest-deep, who lets it bounce off his hands and is immediately attacked by both boys, one over each shoulder. Back home in the fall, we see the family watch the Steelers score or win: the first thing the two exuberant boys do is madly swat each other with their Terrible Handtowels. Meanwhile Kate and Jack hug, Rebecca opens her arms and the much-closer Randall embraces her, and Kevin sees...his father look for him and reach out, not turning back to Kate until he sees that Rebecca has reached out too, and Kevin has already jumped into a three-way hug with his mother and brother. 

Some of the images for Kevin's narration aren't Kevin's (the flashforward to Randall after William's death) and other are imagined (Kevin's great-grandfather arriving in the U.S. as an immigrant, carrying a flattened rugby ball in his suitcase). But the memories set in the pool and home in Pittsburgh on two afternoons just before and after he turned ten, are his, and genuine. Kevin knows, whether or not he remembers, that this too was us. Some things don't need a twist.

[possibilities]

Kevin thinking he could become an actor based on his looks, and not having taken any acting classes even after a year of no auditions, was so extremely obnoxious, it colors everything else about him. It's a lot like Kate thinking she could start a singing career in her late 30s, after never having sung in public at all, or focused in any way on her singing, until a few months earlier when she reluctantly sang one song at a nursing home because her boyfriend pressured her relentlessly. It's out of touch with reality and stunningly entitled, in a way that to me is really extreme, even for TV.

[Crs97]

Personally, I think the shopkeeper's advice would have been more realistic and reassuring if he had said, "Children don't need to know the meaning of life when they're born.  They just need to know that you will feed them and protect them and most of all love them.  Can you do those things?  Then you are ready to become a parent.  The rest of it all . . . Well, you will grow and learn together and from each other."

[Dejana]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

Kevin thinking he could become an actor based on his looks, and not having taken any acting classes even after a year of no auditions, was so extremely obnoxious, it colors everything else about him. It's a lot like Kate thinking she could start a singing career in her late 30s, after never having sung in public at all, or focused in any way on her singing, until a few months earlier when she reluctantly sang one song at a nursing home because her boyfriend pressured her relentlessly. It's out of touch with reality and stunningly entitled, in a way that to me is really extreme, even for TV.

Well, they are the children of Rebecca, who seemingly spent her twenties as a full-time lounge singer in Pittsburgh and was disappointed her professional musical career hadn't gone anywhere. As the kids grew up, it doesn't sound as though she pursued more casual performing outlets, like singing at weddings on weekends or a church choir, before she landed the gig with her ex's band. Maybe the entitlement and poor work ethic are genetic?

 

I don't feel the aftershow segments for TIU are required viewing or tend to be contradictory of the episodes themselves, as I have with some other shows. Sometimes the segments or interviews make me reevaluate what the show presented (these forums show how perceptions can differ!). And I agree that some viewers were maybe, let's say, distracted as they watched, and may have missed certain developments even if the show presented them clearly enough.

[GSMHvisitor]

7 hours ago, Pallas said:

 

Me three, and I just watched it again. I'd forgotten that it begins with Uncle Kevin's coming to his niece's room to apologize for making a crack about death, that scared Annie. We've now seen more of this side of Uncle Kevin, throughout his life. His jokes are observations pushed to the extreme: sharp, observant, gimlet-eyed and undeceived, like a film noir detective. "Dad's trying to keep Kate from feeling too fat, and you're trying to keep Randall from feeling too adopted. Meanwhile, where's Kevin? Oh I know: Kevin's dead."  (To me, this is not so different from Kevin's "Randall's finally got the chance to make his move," as Randall shares popcorn solicitously with their mother in a movie theater on the night Kevin's father moved out of the house after weeks of silent fighting with the mother who'd left town the night before, and her return at dawn -- so now she's going to be the only one we live with? -- because things somehow got worse, overnight.) Or, paraphrasing: "Dad. Buy a clue. I can get all the candy I want. Kate can't. Not from anyone but you." 

Kevin really is the high school quarterback who -- when his parents know he's in his room with the door locked, not doing his homework -- is drawing, not playing video games. He has an actor's ability to take a character and twist the context 45 degrees in either direction, and see what that looks like. What happens when the screws are tightened, or what happens when you break the seal.

What's intriguing about the flashbacks to son-and-brother Kevin during Uncle Kevin's voice-over is that each brief clip resolves a scene we've seen before and thought we got. At the pool, not-dead Jack stands waist-deep and tosses a football to also-not-dead Kevin, all alone in the shallow end. Later, Rebecca sitting at the edge of the pool, near Kate, tosses the ball to Jack, now crouched chest-deep, who lets it bounce off his hands and is immediately attacked by both boys, one over each shoulder. Back home in the fall, we see the family watch the Steelers score or win (it looks unexpected or suspenseful): the first thing the two exuberant boys do is madly swat each other with their Terrible Handtowels. Meanwhile Kate and Jack hug, Rebecca opens her arms and the much-closer Randall embraces her, and Kevin sees...his father look for him and reach out, not turning back to Kate until he sees that Rebecca has reached out too, and Kevin has already jumped into a three-way hug with his mother and brother. 

Some of the images for Kevin's narration aren't Kevin's (the flashforward to Randall after William's death) and other are imagined (Kevin's great-grandfather arriving in the U.S. as an immigrant, carrying a flattened rugby ball in his suitcase). But the memories set in the pool and home in Pittsburgh on two afternoons just before and after he turned ten, are his, and genuine. Kevin knows, whether or not he remembers, that this too was us. Some things don't need a twist.

That's some nice insight. I'm gonna move this discussion to the Kevin thread.

[methodwriter85]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:17 PM, Dejana said:

Well, they are the children of Rebecca, who seemingly spent her twenties as a full-time lounge singer in Pittsburgh and was disappointed her professional musical career hadn't gone anywhere. As the kids grew up, it doesn't sound as though she pursued more casual performing outlets, like singing at weddings on weekends or a church choir, before she landed the gig with her ex's band. Maybe the entitlement and poor work ethic are genetic?

They have very, very loudly hinted that Rebecca comes from an affluent background. She's from Connecticut, Working Class Jack has always seen Rebecca as being out of his league, her mother seems like she would belong in the DAR with Emily Gilmore, and they had maids. Maids back in the 50s/60's didn't necessarily mean you were rich, but you probably had to be at least upper middle class for one..

Rebecca was probably a Daddy's girl who had a doting if very busy father, and who didn't mind when Rebecca spent her college days and early 20's living the carefree hippie lifestyle that he likely bankrolled. Probably because he figured she would eventually marry the "right" kind of guy. (If we do ever see Rebecca's father, I'm nominating Mark Harelik. He plays upper middle class dad's well.) So yeah, Rebecca has a bit of that spoiled brat streak inside of her, and it makes sense she passed that on to Kate and Kevin.

Note that Randall seems to have reverse entitlement, where he assumes he has to fight very hard to even be considered good enough. In this episode, he can't just be a new father. He has to be the BEST new father, or else it all goes to shit. Of course, that comes from feeling like he has to be the Model Minority, and needing to justify his place in his adopted family on a subconscious level.

Edited November 7, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Crs97]

50 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

So yeah, Rebecca has a bit of that spoiled brat streak inside of her, and it makes sense she passed that on to Kate and Kevin.

I need an example of her spoiled brat streak.

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

I need an example of her spoiled brat streak.

Okay, not so much spoiled brat, but entitled. As Dejana talked about earlier-

Quote

Well, they are the children of Rebecca, who seemingly spent her twenties as a full-time lounge singer in Pittsburgh and was disappointed her professional musical career hadn't gone anywhere. As the kids grew up, it doesn't sound as though she pursued more casual performing outlets, like singing at weddings on weekends or a church choir, before she landed the gig with her ex's band. Maybe the entitlement and poor work ethic are genetic?

[MaryPatShelby]

On 11/5/2017 at 7:59 PM, Blakeston said:

The night Jack died, we saw him comforting the family by saying something like, "I'll get some pillows."

 

I still maintain that  we do not know for a fact that this was the night Jack died; it was the night their house burned down and at this point, at Miguel's, they did not know their father was dead (if he even was).  The kids were house-burned-down upset, not the-greatest-father-of-all-time-is-dead-upset, and Miguel wasn't emotional at all as he would have been had Jack died.  IMHO.

[debraran]

31 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I still maintain that  we do not know for a fact that this was the night Jack died; it was the night their house burned down and at this point, at Miguel's, they did not know their father was dead (if he even was).  The kids were house-burned-down upset, not the-greatest-father-of-all-time-is-dead-upset, and Miguel wasn't emotional at all as he would have been had Jack died.  IMHO.

I agree, I love the show, but the writers seem to want this to be more of a series of twists and not just good writing. Doing it for the sake of the twist, is different than just having one in the story for effect.  I feel the fire as the producers alluded too, is part of it, they keep saying "an aspect of it" because it's a series of things. Whatever it is, and it's a doozy I'm sure,  please make it believable. I feel the same with Kevin's addiction, it's easy to get information on getting pills and laws, don't just let him have a bottle without showing how he was able to get it. They are so addicting especially to someone who is predisposed to it. His fear of taking it, I saw in a friend of mine who turned down a tooth implant because he knew if he took pain pills, he'd relapse and didn't want to go through the steps again since it was optional surgery.

The pillows just meant they were hunkering down for the night, and Mom wasn't there. Miguel  might have been being strong but yeah, didn't seem upset (yet) Maybe they didn't know about Dad yet.

Edited November 12, 2017 by debraran

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I still maintain that  we do not know for a fact that this was the night Jack died; it was the night their house burned down and at this point, at Miguel's, they did not know their father was dead (if he even was).  The kids were house-burned-down upset, not the-greatest-father-of-all-time-is-dead-upset, and Miguel wasn't emotional at all as he would have been had Jack died.  IMHO.

While I concur that there are levels of upset, people react differently, and shock can dampen the expression of grief. I think other scenes surrounding that one imply that it is the night he died, but it definitely isn't a fact at this point.

In the case of Miguel, I don't think his behavior can be a case for or against it being the night of Jack's death. Some adults keep it together in front of children, and some just keep it together until they're in private. It often gets mistaken for lack of feeling or emotion.

[debraran]

I think there was a scene where you see Kate looking at Kevin with his girlfriend in car. I thought "if" she drove there alone, that was odd, I hope not. Time will tell, but maybe Miguel drove her. If my house burned or my dad died, or both, I wouldn't be driving very well to go find my brother.  That's an accident waiting to happen.

This looks like Randall has a book or something on his lap

Edited November 12, 2017 by debraran

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I think there was a scene where you see Kate looking at Kevin with his girlfriend in car. I thought "if" she drove there alone, that was odd, I hope not. Time will tell, but maybe Miguel drove her. If my house burned or my dad died, or both, I wouldn't be driving very well to go find my brother.  That's an accident waiting to happen.

This looks like Randall has a book or something on his lap

Looks like the spine of a photo album to me. Who's the girl next to Randall?

[debraran]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Looks like the spine of a photo album to me. Who's the girl next to Randall?

That's a girlfriend Milo and the producer keep bringing up in interviews. She's Randalls girlfriend and part of the "how Jack died" episodes along with the dog and Kevin breaking his leg. I think with her, it's more she's not int he picture yet, so when she is, you know it's getting closer.

[Dejana]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Looks like the spine of a photo album to me. Who's the girl next to Randall?

She hasn't been shown in any other scenes. Common guesses were Randall's girlfriend at the time or Miguel and Shelley's daughter.

[Pallas]

On 11/6/2017 at 5:17 PM, Dejana said:

Rebecca, who seemingly spent her twenties as a full-time lounge singer in Pittsburgh and was disappointed her professional musical career hadn't gone anywhere. As the kids grew up, it doesn't sound as though she pursued more casual performing outlets, like singing at weddings on weekends or a church choir, before she landed the gig with her ex's band. Maybe the entitlement and poor work ethic are genetic?

I don't know. I didn't have the impression that Rebecca sang for her supper before she married Jack; I thought that she sang nights and weekends while working some job that paid the bills. After Rebecca and Jack were married, she was excited just to get a paying gig at their local bar, so I don't think she'd previously been supporting herself as a singer. I imagine we'll learn why she's in Pittsburgh (my guess is, she attended Carnegie Mellon, with its excellent performing arts program, and remained a few years after graduating: then met Jack). 

But before Rebecca was a full-time mother, she had jobs, not a career. Not a career that she believed was worth trying to meld with child-raising; not a career that would earn more than it cost in child care for three pre-schoolers. So I don't question her work ethic as much as I assume Rebecca lacked the drive to have to perform for a living -- before all else -- or the focus to discover a workable alternative career, and pursue it. As Rebecca grew up in the the 50's and 60's and right through graduating college in 1972, it would not have been a given that she would go on to pursue a career before homemaking. Her time in the job market was meant to be her last phase in the marriage market. I see this as reflecting the prevalent one-earner household of the time -- a combination of widespread middle class privilege, and male supremacy -- and not Rebecca's feeling of personal entitlement. 

I also don't question her work ethic in regard to singing, once she ruled out a life as a singer. Singing for a hobby -- paid or unpaid -- may not have been important to her. Jack worked more than full-time throughout their marriage, and neither Jack nor Rebecca had any extended family available nearby. While the kids were young, Rebecca may (unconsciously) have felt she didn't have the right to ask Jack to care for them when she went out nights and weekends to rehearse and perform with a wedding band, or even the one night a week with a church choir, along with the hassle of getting the family to church early every Sunday. Given her perfectionism and anxiety, Rebecca may also have found it hard to let anyone else take charge of the kids -- especially Jack, who as their father, went through two extended phases of problem drinking, one of which she let herself acknowledge as it was happening. 

Rebecca didn't schedule weekly time out of the house, away from her job and out of reach, while the kids were growing up. Many first-time moms were and are the same. And Rebecca was a first-time mother of triplets. First-time mother of a baby born dead. First-time adoptive mother. First- time white mother of a black son. Then first-time single mother of teenagers. Most of all, Rebecca was a first-time mom with all three kids, forever. She never had the chance to re-do any age or phase, knowing what she'd learned about children, life and herself.

[millennium]

On 11/1/2017 at 12:03 AM, VioletNevermind said:

This was the first episode that truly irritated and bored me.  I’m still all about Tuesday nights and I won’t give up on the show, but a few things are really working my nerves.  First, the long, meaningful speeches have got to go, or should at least be scaled back.  I’m capable of understanding that the characters are feeling and expressing strong emotions without being forced to listen to a breathy soliloquy, usually delivered by a well-meaning Rebecca.  If I’d played a breathy soliloquy drinking game during tonight’s episode, I’d have been drunk off my ass by the third commercial break.  By the time we got to the scene with Rebecca “introducing herself” to Baby Randall with a Shakespeare-caliber speech, I was beyond finished.  

I adore Randall (the character and the actor behind him), but really, writers?  He delivered his own daughter right at the cusp of a full-on emotional breakdown?  Come on.  Randall is most definitely the cream of the Pearson crop, but his ongoing deification is getting to be a bit much.

Kevin.  I still don’t care one bit about his story.  His attempt to steal his roommate’s part was classic Kevin.  No surprises there at all.  

Kate.  She slept with a married man in her 20’s.  Not a great thing to do, of course, but it happens.  Other than that, I do not care.

Rebecca.  The makeup and costuming teams continue to do a really subpar job with her looks as her age changes through various decades.  The scene with 2008-era pregnant Beth was just plain confusing.  She looked like her present-day early-30’s self, but without makeup.  This show is ambitious with the ever-changing timeline, so I’m willing to overlook it. 

The best part of this episode was the much-needed break from Toby and his jackassery.  His performances last week, sweeping everything off the desk to have sex with Kate and his “We’re pregnant!” dance routine in the restaurant, brought me to my absolute Toby limit.  I think I’ve reached it every week, but each episode pushes me a bit farther.

I just read this and realize that I sound super grouchy, so maybe my Halloween sugar high has just worn off and the episode was really great.  Either way, I am cautiously optimistic about next week.

(Oh, and Larsons?  Fuck you.)

Just loved this post.   It isn't only the soliloquies, it's the sappy folk music in the background.   It's like thirtysomething in that regard, but on overkill.  Looking at you, Ken Olin.

OF COURSE Randall's baby had to be delivered anywhere but in the hospital.   Has a study ever been conducted to determine the ratio of America babies born outside of the hospital on TV versus babies born outside of a hospital in real life?  Because it seems to happen a whole hell of a lot on the other side of the screen. 

I'm watching this series for the first time just to see what all the fuss was about these last six or seven years.   I don't get it.   The Walking Dead has been described as "torture porn" and "violence porn."   This show is tearjerker porn.   The overarching story line of The Mysterious Death of Saint Jack -- a guy so fundamentally flawed yet so fuckingly wonderful his wife and grown children can't get over his death almost ten years later -- throws a shroud of maudlin over this show that no scene can escape. 

The scripts seem written by an algorithm that knows exactly when to inject a hot shot of schmaltz, with absolutely no dosage limits.  That's the only reason why some of these people -- who are not real people at all but caricatures of different human types -- can be truly awful yet loved unconditionally within this artificial, upper middle class, diverse-but-not-really-diverse world.  

Kate suspected the guy was married but she slept with him anyway because the world hasn't been fair to her.   But then again, what would you expect from an entitled egomaniac who tells her mother "your existence is my problem."  Kevin dicks over his friend without regret.  Randall makes the pregnancy all about him, like Beth is just some appliance with a timer that's about to go off.   Every scene with Randall is like he's immersed in an isolation tank of self-discovery; everyone else is incidental.   Then of course there's Saint Jack, who wasn't above plotting to rob a bar several episodes back (which might have gotten that bartender killed) because he was unhappy about being rolled at a poker game he was WARNED ABOUT.  Saint Jack who tells the office homewrecker that she's "embarrassing me, and embarrassing yourself" (said no man ever), but who has a collection of secrets and lies stored away in the garage and is curiously portrayed as some kind of dad-hero for deciding to let his own father die miserable and alone.  Saint Jack who deliberately torpedoed his wife's pathetic substitute for her dream of a singing career (yeah, show, Jack had to give up some of his dreams too but it wasn't anything Rebecca DID to him -- it doesn't make them even, no matter how Rebecca tried to rationalize it afterwards) and then wriggles out of responsibility by announcing he's an alcoholic.

Then there's Toby, the not-funny, always overbearing guy who has to make EVERY situation about himself, whether it's wearing an obnoxious LOOK-AT-ME  outfit to Kevin's play, making family gatherings a quest to make Rebecca like HIM, or publicly acting out his own personal music video inside the diner to "celebrate" the pregnancy (I know, I know, he's supposed to be happy rather than narcissistic but that's not how it comes off) regardless of whose lunch he disrupts or how much of a mess he makes.   Toby the pig who just assumes Kate wants to fuck on his desk.   If I knew someone like Toby, who apparently can't let three sentences go by without grasping for a joke, any joke,  I would be highly concerned that he is overcompensating for some deep-seated psychological problem. 

But hey, it's all good because you got folksy music and intimate close-ups and you know how to really lay it on thick when it comes to death and love and broken dreams and kids and what have you, don't you, show?  You know where all the buttons are. 

I've read in a lot of places that this show makes people cry.   I feel bad for them because I suspect maybe they head into the show wanting to cry.  Lord knows there's enough in life to cry about.   But the way this show has mapped all that out and shamelessly exploits it from one episode to the next is kind of revolting.

Edited June 2, 2022 by millennium