S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Francie]

23 hours ago, MrsR said:

They're the French. The flowers represent the Fleur de Lis. The food, the fashion, the flowers, I've always seen them as the French thus I never expected them to be good fighters.

 

The water that Jaime fell into was a pond, a watering hole. The army was stopped to rest and water the horses and army. That's why they had to scramble and fetch their weapons. 

 

Yes, Tyrion could have been there to see the battle. Absolutely. Generals and advisers often were on hand to watch from a distance. Even stranger was that here were people picnicking and watching during Civil War battles.

Every manor house had to provide a certain number of men to the Earl or Baron at any given time. These men would have come from the working classes and would have been regularly trained as archers or had support skills,(blacksmithing, animal support, cook. etc.)  Every man in England at one time was required to have archery training. They could also be foot soldiers but less so, as they needed more training in hand to hand. Cavalry on the other was highly trained and expensive. Professionals.

 

Richard III directly charged Henry VII at the end. It was his undoing.

 

PS: It was Bronn who rescued Jaime. He saw the riderless white horse, and it was a rider on a white horse who saved Jaime.  He needs Jaime alive to collect his castles.

According to the New York Times article, which is here https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/arts/jamie-lannister-nikolaj-coster-waldau.html , the water Jaime fell into was the Blackwater Rush.  It may be at the estuary part, which, given how close they were to King's Landing, seems likely.

So, after being nearly hit with dragon fire (and all its smoky aftermath), it seems that Jaime just fell into salt water.

Let that sink in.

13 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

I really don't think it's Jon's pride that's stopping him from bending the knee just like it wasn't Mance's pride that made him refuse to follow Stannis.

Dany's not just asking him to bend the knee. She wants his support while she first tackles Cersei -- and then she'll her attention to the WW. And Jon is screaming as loudly as he can, "There's no time for that." He doesn't have time to wait while Dany plays the Game of Thrones.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The North are clearly not taking it seriously since the idea of their King kneeling to her is more important than her providing the help that they need.

Or at least that's the argument that Jon is making every time he refuses to bend the knee. 

I think the North are most definitely taking it seriously.  For all the other reasons everyone else has stated, plus they all said so in the town hall meetings in the first two episodes.  They are training their men/boys AND women/girls, and they wouldn't do that if they weren't taking it seriously.  They now see Wildlings practically as equals, and they didn't protest that much when Jon said he had to go get the Dragonglass from Dragonstone.  What they did NOT tell him he could do, was bend the knee!  It's not Jon's pride preventing him from bending the knee, it's the fact that all of the Northerners CHOSE him, and they did not choose to bend the knee to Dany.  He's not going to do anything that he thinks his people don't want him to do; it's not his decision to make.  Sorry, but I completely disagree on your interpretation of Jon's argument for not bending the knee.

[Francie]

Oops -- double post. Dracarys!!

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie

[Katsullivan]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

Dany's not just asking him to bend the knee. She wants his support while she first tackles Cersei -- and then she'll her attention to the WW. And Jon is screaming as loudly as he can, "There's no time for that." He doesn't have time to wait while Dany plays the Game of Thrones.

No, she doesn't. Dany literally tells him when he approaches her court: "I have 3 Large Dragons and 2 Bad-ass Armies. I don't need anything from you so WTF is your attitude, Mister?"

OK, maybe not literally :P . 

If anything, the longer Jon takes to make a credible case, the longer Dany's war with Cersei is and the less the chance of her army or dragons  being available to him.

He is really  not helping his case in this and it shows. 

Of course, the entire writing for this is bullshit so I guess I can't blame Jon for plot-induced stupidity.

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think the North are most definitely taking it seriously.  For all the other reasons everyone else has stated, plus they all said so in the town hall meetings in the first two episodes.  They are training their men/boys AND women/girls, and they wouldn't do that if they weren't taking it seriously.  They now see Wildlings practically as equals, and they didn't protest that much when Jon said he had to go get the Dragonglass from Dragonstone.  What they did NOT tell him he could do, was bend the knee!  It's not Jon's pride preventing him from bending the knee, it's the fact that all of the Northerners CHOSE him, and they did not choose to bend the knee to Dany.  He's not going to do anything that he thinks his people don't want him to do; it's not his decision to make.  Sorry, but I completely disagree on your interpretation of Jon's argument for not bending the knee.

Once again, you're assuming that Dany has the audience's perspective and is using this to inform her decisions. Dany doesn't know any of this. All she's hearing is that Jon needs her Army+Dragons for this war but he's not willing to pay a price for it because "The North won't let him." Then gee, maybe the situation isn't  as dire as he's making it sound since the North are being picky about the matter. Or maybe it is, but they have a Plan B that can work without her Dragons+Army.

Either way, he's not communicating any sense of urgency to her and she can't be expected to make any other kind of decision based on what she knows (not on what we know as the audience, once again!).

[sumiregusa]

Speaking to the whole issue of "bend the knee"-gate...

At this point, I think it's hard to stand behind either Jon or Dany without looking like an apologist for either of them. On the one hand, Jon is telling nothing but the truth about the AOTD and the White Walkers and he's just trying to give someone he wants to ally with fair warning of what's about to happen to all of them if they don't stand together. On the other hand, Dany is the one who was exiled from her home and scraped tooth and nail to return for what is "hers" only to have someone demanding her support without offering anything in return. Also the start to their negotiations was a true stalemate since neither of them intended to back down. Where I stand with it now is that Dany is the one offering at least something, and Jon still has yet to offer anything.

Dany came out the gate sounding pretty entitled and very obviously rubbed Jon and a lot of people (myself included) the wrong way. On top of that, she has refused to let him return to Winterfell so he's basically a prisoner (which I think he kinda likes but that's another kinky discussion for another kinky day). That being said, she isn't the audience, she doesn't have all the facts, she hasn't seen the dead army with her own eyes. Tyrion was right to take Jon down a notch and remind him of what his requests actually sound like to someone trying to be pragmatic about the situation. From that, we saw Dany accept Tyrion's advice and let Jon take what resources he needs without hindrance.

It goes even a step further just this last episode when Jon showed her the cave drawings. He's trying to find whatever nuggets of information he can to strengthen his case and prove to her that the reasons for needing her support go beyond both of them. Dany was unequivocally receptive and started to better understand why Jon is being so adamant about not surrendering the only card he has to play. Jon's point about the Northern Lords is well taken and he is only trying to advocate for their interests and maintain their autonomy. Even still, Dany's point about what it's going to take to secure her support is even more well taken.  Jon's refusal to bend the knee is becoming less and less about what he won't do for the good of his people and more about a lack of trust in his own abilities to lead. The Northern Lords didn't even want him to go to Dragonstone at all but he made the decision to go and they could either choose to fall in line or not. Agreement isn't a prerequisite for obedience and if they chose to raise up a king that they trust and believe in, then they have to go ahead and trust and believe in him. It seems like the Northerners are adjusting to the idea that Jon is their leader more than even Jon is himself, which is very true to his character anyway. He's the reluctant hero. 

Besides what it says about Jon's belief in himself, Dany even went so far as to say she would fight for him, not just with him or alongside him. For all HER pride, she is starting to see how much she is underestimating what should be their common enemy and she wants him to know that she believes what he is telling her, to the point that she showed borderline submission to the idea and to what he is asking of her. What Jon is missing out on is another chance to prove that he can make his own decisions if it's the right thing to do. Asking someone for everything and giving up nothing is not an alliance, whether his cause is just or not. Of course who sits on the throne seems like a nonsense thing to worry about in the face of so much horrific danger, but if Jon truly believes Dany's help will give them a fighting chance, if not give them a loose victory, she has the right to worry about what comes after the long fight just as much as he does. 

TLDR; IMO, neither of them is wrong, and especially from what WE know Jon is even less so, but it's called compromise for a reason.

Edited August 8, 2017 by sumiregusa

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Of course, the entire writing for this is bullshit so I guess I can't blame Jon for plot-induced stupidity.

May I ask what you DO actually like about this show then?  Sorry, but I think I only ever read complaints from you. :-)

[DarkRaichu]

7 hours ago, dr pepper said:

Speaking of Jaime, how come defrocked Maester Da Vinci hasn't made him a mechanical appendage yet?

He is too busy making scorpions/ballistas?  Either that or Cersei never told him to make Inspector Gadget type of hand for Jaime :P

 

23 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I rewatched the episode (most of it), and Randall Tarly did indeed say that "all the gold is safely through the gates at King's Landing."  So Dany did not burn the gold.  However, I still strongly believe that she burnt everything else, including all of that grain that the Tarlys and Bronn forced the farmers to harvest.  Yes, Tarly mentions how long the caravan is and Jaime says they are stretched thin, however they all appear to be in camp together at that time.  They are spread out over the field next to the Blackwater.  Tarly also says that they need to get the tail over the Blackwater Rush - which tells us that they are not far from King's Landing at all.  He must have rode ahead with the gold and come back again (since he's alone and on a presumably swift horse, this makes sense).  I don't believe there is much food left, presuming all of this is gone.  If the farmers of the Reach were harvesting, there's nothing left to harvest.  So I maintain that Dany is an idiot for destroying a vast majority of the food supplies.

This AND the Iron Bank guy (Mycroft :P ) said they have been paid IN FULL.  How could Cersei manage to pay off ALL her debt without gold from Highgarden??

Edited August 8, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[MrsR]

31 minutes ago, Francie said:

So, after being nearly hit with dragon fire, it seems that Jaime just fell into salt water.

Well it looked like a lake. Drogon flew over a still lake. (Awesome shot of the wake caused by his tail)  Blackwater Rush is described as a fast moving deep river (thus the Rush part of the name) with treacherous currents.

And the loot train was stopped for rest. You wouldn't water your horses with salt water. So while they were near Blackwater Rush they weren't on Blackwater Rush.

31 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by MrsR

[FnkyChkn34]

15 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

This AND the Iron Bank guy (Mycroft :P ) said they have been paid IN FULL.  How could Cersei manage to pay off ALL her debt without gold from Highgarden??

Mycroft and Cersei are talking in the beginning of the episode, and they say that he will be paid off in full.  Cersei says the gold is still in transport and Jaime is seeing to it personally.  So Mycroft doesn't have the gold yet but he will.  Then do we see Mycroft again?  I don't think that we do.  I stopped my re-watch right before the Dothraki attack, and I think the battle is the last scene of the episode.  

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm still patiently waiting for the show to figure out a reason for Tom Hopper to suddenly be sporting sleeveless armor.  As much as I loved Black Sails, it was always amusing to see that show configure ways for all the men around him to be swashbuckling in full frock coats while he was forever going about in shirt sleeves rolled all the way up to his shoulders to show off his best assets.

Well, just in case, you can always feast your eyes on the sleeveless Dothraki on the long stairway on Dragonstone.  They looked pretty great the other night, and as for looks, out-brooded King of the Broody, Jon Snow.  I noticed the Dothraki on last night's (4th) rewatch.  Those guys are hawwwt.

[FnkyChkn34]

24 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Once again, you're assuming that Dany has the audience's perspective and is using this to inform her decisions. Dany doesn't know any of this. All she's hearing is that Jon needs her Army+Dragons for this war but he's not willing to pay a price for it because "The North won't let him." Then gee, maybe the situation isn't  as dire as he's making it sound since the North are being picky about the matter. Or maybe it is, but they have a Plan B that can work without her Dragons+Army.

Either way, he's not communicating any sense of urgency to her and she can't be expected to make any other kind of decision based on what she knows (not on what we know as the audience, once again!).

No, I'm going by what Jon has actually told her.  He told her that his men wouldn't approve of him bending the knee.  He's told her of the urgency - she said bend the knee and he said there's no time for that, there's not time for any of it.  That's when he called them all children playing a game while the WW are prepping to destroy them.  He has said everything you think he hasn't said...

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Mycroft and Cersei are talking in the beginning of the episode, and they say that he will be paid off in full.  Cersei says the gold is still in transport and Jaime is seeing to it personally.  So Mycroft doesn't have the gold yet but he will.  Then do we see Mycroft again?  I don't think that we do.  I stopped my re-watch right before the Dothraki attack, and I think the battle is the last scene of the episode.  

I stand corrected.  I thought the conversation between Cersei and Mycroft was after the gold had arrived

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

No, I'm going by what Jon has actually told her.  He told her that his men wouldn't approve of him bending the knee.  He's told her of the urgency - she said bend the knee and he said there's no time for that, there's not time for any of it.  That's when he called them all children playing a game while the WW are prepping to destroy them.  He has said everything you think he hasn't said...

I'm sure someone else has mentioned this, but her speech to him is the exact speech he gave to Mance after he was captured...sorry, rewatched it last night :)

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

No, I'm going by what Jon has actually told her.  He told her that his men wouldn't approve of him bending the knee.  He's told her of the urgency - she said bend the knee and he said there's no time for that, there's not time for any of it.  That's when he called them all children playing a game while the WW are prepping to destroy them.  He has said everything you think he hasn't said...

So? I don't get the point you're making because I already said this:

Quote

All she's hearing is that Jon needs her Army+Dragons for this war but he's not willing to pay a price for it because "The North won't let him." Then gee, maybe the situation isn't  as dire as he's making it sound since the North are being picky about the matter.

If the North aren't taking the matter seriously enough, then why should Dany? See my CalExit example.

 

28 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

May I ask what you DO actually like about this show then?  Sorry, but I think I only ever read complaints from you. :-)

I think the show was fine when they had book material to mine from but with every season since they've gone off-script (and even before, see: Sansa's Rape), they've been doing an increasingly shitty job to the extent that they can't even keep continuity from one episode to the next.

However....

It's the closest thing I'll ever get to a conclusion of a story I started reading 21 years. So I'm stuck with it.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It's the closest thing I'll ever get to a conclusion of a story I started reading 21 years. So I'm stuck with it.

[super small voice]GRRM was in NYC meeting with his publisher[/super small voice]

I know it means nothing.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, Katsullivan said:

So? I don't get the point you're making because I already said this:

If the North aren't taking the matter seriously enough, then why should Dany? See my CalExit example.

 

I think the show was fine when they had book material to mine from but with every season since they've gone off-script (and even before, see: Sansa's Rape), they've been doing an increasingly shitty job to the extent that they can't even keep continuity from one episode to the next.

However....

It's the closest thing I'll ever get to a conclusion of a story I started reading 21 years. So I'm stuck with it.

The North aren't "being picky" and neither are the North "not letting him."  He made the decision for them that since they chose him, he's not going to betray them by surrendering to someone else.  There's a difference in what we're both saying; I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.  It would as if the elected President of the United States unilaterally decided to surrender to Finland so all Americans are now Finnish subjects.  Um... that's not what anyone elected him to do!  (First I was going to use Canada, but that sounds like a good idea, and then I was going to use Russia, and that sounds too much like the truth, so yeah - Finland.)

And I'm sorry that you're so disappointed.  I don't think the continuity is so awful, and I for one am still enjoying the show immensely.  I think the showrunners are still doing an exceptional job, and they are actually cleaning up a few of GRRM's mistakes, IMO.  (For example, doesn't GRRM describe Bran as practically growing roots and becoming a tree?  I'm glad he's still mostly human in the show; makes more sense.)

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

Francie, I like your theory about an argument between Dany and Missandei concerning legitimacy. That would be an interesting scene.

Minor nitpick from someone who watches and enjoys the opening credits. Why is Pyke in the credits? We haven't even been there this season.

I've been wanting Jaime dead since episode 1, season 1.

Dany left Daario behind in order to find a good political match. However, when she meets Jon, who rules the largest Kingdom in Westeros and is allied with the Vale, which has a large cavalry, she refuses to even consider forming an alliance with him. She only holds Dragonstone and Casterly Rock right now so she's not in a position of great power. Sure, she has three dragons but we know she won't use them to lay waste to the Seven Kingdoms and I'm not sure they're going to be enough for her to win the Iron Throne.

I really hope Dany will turn her attention North sooner rather than later. Because her dragons would be really useful against the army of the dead and she wouldn't have to worry about killing her own subjects. I also think that Jon is entirely focused on the threat of the Night King and he will never risk his army in the war against Cersei. It's not what he promised to his people.

Jon did point out that the northern lords wouldn't follow a southern ruler but he also failed to mention that they were against him meeting her and that they really, really don't trust her. I think the Northerners would turn their back on Jon if they felt he betrayed them by joining a foreign leader. The North has been through a lot and Dany being allied with the Greyjoys isn't going to endear her to them.

Last we saw them, they were protecting the cave where Bran and Co. were staying and they gave up their life trying to help them escape. So in the show we know that they had a change of heart at one point about fighting their own creation.

That point where the CotF and the First Men agreed to join forces was some 8,000 years ago, during the semi-mythical Long Night, after the CotF realized they'd loosed WMD's on the world and couldn't control them....the WW's were killing everyone.  That  is the basis for the legend of Azor Ahai, he of the flaming sword, created by stabbing his wife, Nissa-Nissa through the heart.  Azor Ahai ended the long night, and perhaps had something to do with the name of the Stark Castle, Winter fell.

The CoTF and the First Men made the formal Pact on the Isle of Faces, an island in the middle of a lake, just north of Harrenhall (so-called because there were many weirwood trees there, into which many faces were carved, in celebration of the pact).  The Isle of Faces is considered to be haunted these days, and no one in the book has ever been there, or mentioned anyone who has ever been there.....except for Lord Howland Reed of Greywater Watch, Ned's pal who slayed the greatest knight ever, Arthur Dayne, at the Tower of Joy.  Howland Reed (Meera's dad), is the only living man who knows of Jon's true parentage....and we likely will see him again.  And perhaps discover that the CotF, who likely have one last enclave left, are holed up at the Isle of Faces.

Rewatch the scene at the Dragonstone cave this episode, to check the cave drawings out carefully.  You can tell the men are the First Men, because they have bronze weapons in hand.  The Pact was made prior to the later Andal invasion of Westeros.  The Andals were never part of the pact, and basically they attempted to exterminate the CotF and the First Men as well.  The fierce Andals drove the last of the CotF into hiding, and more-or-less conquered Westeros by intermarriage after winning one territory after the other, and changed the religion of Westeros to worship of the Seven, obliterating most of the worship of the Old Gods.  Only a few of the families in Westeros are of "pure" blood of the First Men, the Starks, and a few other northern families.  And the Thenn, who decamped and have been living north of the Wall for the last 8,000 years, the only "wildlings" who kneel.

After the CotF and First Men made their pact, Brandon the Builder, with the help of the CotF, and giants, mammoths, and massive assistance of magical spells, created The Wall.  And Winterfell, with its gigantic underground system of crypts, and a heart tree as ancient as the one as the 3ER's Beyond the Wall.  Brandon the Builder also built Storm's End, also believed to be a magical castle, as it has withstood both multiple seiges and hurricane type storms that would have torn most structures to bits.  In fact, the only way an invader has ever been able to get in was done by none other than Ser Davos, with Melisandre, to birth her shadow baby, killing Renly.  But they had to sneak in through an old seaside cave, a part of the castle that was never magically warded. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Normades]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Pretty much isn't quite good enough.  Root and stem, root and stem.

The Baratheon's being pretty much, but not quite good enough wiped out doesn't address my question as to why a stag would appear on KL.  It seems no one considers Cersei a Baratheon, including Cersei herself. 

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

Minor nitpick from someone who watches and enjoys the opening credits. Why is Pyke in the credits? We haven't even been there this season.

Because they Greyjoys are playing a prominent role, and that's where they are from?  Easier to include Pyke than show a moving ship, maybe.

Just now, Normades said:

The Baratheon's being pretty much, but not quite good enough wiped out doesn't address my question as to why a stag would appear on KL.  It seems no one considers Cersei a Baratheon, including Cersei herself. 

I agree, and questioned that as well.  But it might be that they have to still consider her a Baratheon somehow because otherwise, what claim to the throne does she have?  She has it now because she is/was the mother of "Baratheons." 

[Katsullivan]

14 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And I'm sorry that you're so disappointed.  I don't think the continuity is so awful, and I for one am still enjoying the show immensely.  I think the showrunners are still doing an exceptional job, and they are actually cleaning up a few of GRRM's mistakes, IMO.  (For example, doesn't GRRM describe Bran as practically growing roots and becoming a tree?  I'm glad he's still mostly human in the show; makes more sense.)

I think Bran growing into a tree to replace the One-Eyed raven who had been a tree makes sense. The show makes changes like this due to: contract reasons (having to keep the actor on the show episode after episode, see: Alfie Allen's "Reek arc") and budget reasons: for the CGI and needing the Bran actor to stay in the same set with the other actors and save money on logistics and even more CGI.

 

14 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

The North aren't "being picky" and neither are the North "not letting him."  He made the decision for them that since they chose him, he's not going to betray them by surrendering to someone else.  There's a difference in what we're both saying; I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.  It would as if the elected President of the United States unilaterally decided to surrender to Finland so all Americans are now Finnish subjects.  Um... that's not what anyone elected him to do!  (First I was going to use Canada, but that sounds like a good idea, and then I was going to use Russia, and that sounds too much like the truth, so yeah - Finland.)

(LOL @ Canada sounding like a good idea and Russia being too soon.)

 

 

But let's work with that parallel:

Was the United States recently a vassal nation to Finland that seceded? Was the secession a mutual decision or did the USA just say "Nope, we're declaring a Revolution against ...."

 

Wait a minute.

Let's use something closer to true history to get some real perspective.

The American Revolution.

The recently "minted" USA asks the United Kingdom to send soldiers and weapons to fight an alien invasion. 

Meanwhile, UK is currently fighting a war against ... say, France or some other country in Europe.

But the USA is like: "Nope, that war doesn't matter. We need your soldiers and weapons now. You need to leave your war with Europe and come and help us fight off these aliens."

UK: So... you're asking us to put ourselves at risk for your Protection. Does this mean you're going to become a colony again.

USA: I don't understand the question.

UK: (looks at the camera like in The Office).

 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

[super small voice]GRRM was in NYC meeting with his publisher[/super small voice]

I know it means nothing.

Hope is all we have.... :)

Edited August 8, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

That point where the CotF and the First Men agreed to join forces was some 8,000 years ago, during the semi-mythical Long Night, after the CotF realized they'd loosed WMD's on the world and couldn't control them....the WW's were killing everyone.  That  is the basis for the legend of Azor Ahai, he of the flaming sword, created by stabbing his wife, Nissa-Nissa through the heart.  Azor Ahai ended the long night, and perhaps had something to do with the name of the Stark Castle, Winter fell.

The CoTF and the First Men made the formal Pact on the Isle of Faces, an island in the middle of a lake, just north of Harrenhall (so-called because there were many weirwood trees there, into which many faces were carved, in celebration of the pact).  The Isle of Faces is considered to be haunted these days, and no one in the book has ever been there, or mentioned anyone who has ever been there.....except for Lord Howland Reed of Greywater Watch, Ned's pal who slayed the greatest knight ever, Arthur Dayne, at the Tower of Joy.  Howland Reed (Meera's dad), is the only living man who knows of Jon's true parentage....and we likely will see him again.  And perhaps discover that the CotF, who likely have one last enclave left, are holed up at the Isle of Faces.

Rewatch the scene at the Dragonstone cave this episode, to check the cave drawings out carefully.  You can tell the men are the First Men, because they have bronze weapons in hand.  The Pact was made prior to the later Andal invasion of Westeros.  The Andals were never part of the pact, and basically they attempted to exterminate the CotF and the First Men as well.  The fierce Andals drove the last of the CotF into hiding, and more-or-less conquered Westeros by intermarriage after winning one territory after the other, and changed the religion of Westeros to worship of the Seven, obliterating most of the worship of the Old Gods.  Only a few of the families in Westeros are of "pure" blood of the First Men, the Starks, and a few other northern families.  And the Thenn, who decamped and have been living north of the Wall for the last 8,000 years, the only "wildlings" who kneel.

After the CotF and First Men made their pact, Brandon the Builder, with the help of the CotF, and giants, mammoths, and massive assistance of magical spells, created The Wall.  And Winterfell, with its gigantic underground system of crypts, and a heart tree as ancient as the one as the 3ER's Beyond the Wall.  Brandon the Builder also built Storm's End, also believed to be a magical castle, as it has withstood both multiple seiges and hurricane type storms that would have torn most structures to bits.  In fact, the only way an invader has ever been able to get in was done by none other than Ser Davos, with Melisandre, to birth her shadow baby, killing Renly.  But they had to sneak in through an old seaside cave, a part of the castle that was never magically warded. 

I do think we will see Meera again -- and I certainly hope it involves her dear papa.  Holding my breath that the casting for Howland will measure up to all my curiosity and hopes.

And of course buried amongst that much discussed litany of titles is one that gets overlooked -- Queen of the Andals.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I actually found the entire thing, from his choosing to stay with his troops to making that seemingly suicidal charge, very much in character with book Jaime.  How many times both in book and show are we told that he thinks before he acts, that he's impulsive to the point of sometimes being foolhardy, that he's fierce and brave as hell as a fighter?  It's only after he loses his sword hand that he has to face the reality that those things don't work for him anymore because he can no longer back them up.  But now they're in a desperate situation where they're all likely to be killed anyway so he might as well take that infinitesimal chance that he can land that charge and stop the carnage.

I read Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's NY Times interview and it seems like he has a good handle on the character as he's being written for the show.  I'll also give him full marks for being able to properly convey the wonder and horror and every other emotion that goes with them in reacting to a CGI dragon that wasn't actually there.  That's one of the usual excuses we get for why Emilia Clarke is such a wooden actress, that she spends so much of her screen time reacting to inanimate object stand ins for the dragons. 

An excellent point.  With all of the standing around and dumb stuff the show runners have had Jaime do for the last few seasons (i.e. that horrid buddy show with Bronn to Dorne, which paid off with "bad pussies"), Nikolaj hasn't been much extended in the acting department (well, except not to laugh at such bad writing).

But this season, he's stepped it up and is killing it!  In his scenes with Euron, you can see all of his emotions flash across his face, and we saw that again last night as he realized what was happening (dragons, deadly cavalry charge, fire everywhere, downed dragon).  It was a brilliant bit of acting.  Even his disgust at some of Bron's flippant comments....and Jaime's annoyance at Bronn's mocking references to the aristocratic way of doing things, were magnificently displayed.  I hope to see an  Emmy in the future for Nikolaj, he deserves it.  As much as I love Lena Hedy, her character is so full of opportunities for great acting, that even a mediocre actress could play Cersei pretty well, although Lena Hedy makes Cersei certifiably bat-shit crazy (although she IS driving me nuts with her pronunciation of terminal "t" this year, "enemies to the East-tah, enemies to the West-tah").

[Normades]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I agree, and questioned that as well.  But it might be that they have to still consider her a Baratheon somehow because otherwise, what claim to the throne does she have?  She has it now because she is/was the mother of "Baratheons." 

Thanks @FnkyChkn34!!  Her being a mother to Baratheon's is the only possible explanation I could come up with because if we use the logic of marriage, Sansa is not Lady Stark, but Lady Lannister/Bolton.  I would think with such rabid, picky fans (myself included) they would be really careful with little details.  Anyway with all the "Baratheon" kids being dead, it still hits me wrong. 

I agree with your take on Pyke's inclusion.  I always look forward to the changes on the "game board" so I was excited to see it.  

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

Dany left Daario behind in order to find a good political match. However, when she meets Jon, who rules the largest Kingdom in Westeros and is allied with the Vale, which has a large cavalry, she refuses to even consider forming an alliance with him. She only holds Dragonstone and Casterly Rock right now so she's not in a position of great power. Sure, she has three dragons but we know she won't use them to lay waste to the Seven Kingdoms and I'm not sure they're going to be enough for her to win the Iron Throne.

That's on the shitty writing not Dany. She returns to Westeros with political marriage in mind but she never brings it up in season 7. Tyrion doesn't suggest it. Neither does Varys. Olenna, etc don't mention it. It's a plot point that the show has completely dropped because I suppose they realized it was too obvious that Dany had only one real "offer" and that was Jon and they needed to go Hollywood meet/cute/hate-to-love romance trope with them. 

It's the same reason why Jon's never brought up Aemon Targaryen to Dany or why Dany has forgotten the visions she had in the House of the Undying: lack of continuity and D&D wanting to write their silly fanficcy plots.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Wait a minute.

Let's use something closer to true history to get some real perspective.

The American Revolution.

The recently "minted" USA asks the United Kingdom to send soldiers and weapons to fight an alien invasion. 

Meanwhile, UK is currently fighting a war against ... say, France or some other country in Europe.

But the USA is like: "Nope, that war doesn't matter. We need your soldiers and weapons now. You need to leave your war with Europe and come and help us fight off these aliens."

UK: "So... you're asking for our Protection. Does this mean you're going to become a colony again."

USA: "I don't understand the question."

In this example, I think you may have it backwards.  Or, I completely don't understand your example.  Dany wants the throne because her family had it 20 years ago.  Cersei has it now, and Dany wants it back.  Wouldn't Cersei be like the founding fathers of the USA who are new to ruling, and Dany, as the UK, says no - we want you back?  Then Jon is the Louisiana Purchase.  He wants Dany's help because she has the best resources, but he's like, "meh, we're all good here being independent but the Pirates of the Caribbean (White Walkers) are killing us."  So what Dany/UK should do is take care of the imminent threat - the threat that wants to kill everyone no matter who they pledge allegiance to - and then worry about taking back the USA/Westeros.  Cersei/USA will still be there when the WW are dead.  

And, Dany wasn't actually at war or engaged in any battles with Cersei until just the past two weeks.  It's not like she's been fighting them from the beginning and had allies die at the Battle of Blackwater Bay or at the Red Wedding.  She just jumped in now.  She could have listened to Jon first when he was pleading his case.  (And he does have something she needs - he controls nearly half of Westeros; she should have helped him first and then he'd be more keen on bending the knee.  Yes, I like Jon better and my bias might be showing through, but she is too stubborn for her own good.)

OK, I've confused myself.  :-)

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Dany acts as if she's owed allegiance by the North on account of the vow that Jon's ancestor made to her ancestor a whole bunch of generations ago. The problem for Dany is that things have changed. Drastically. She might be claiming the title of Queen of Westeros, but until her backside is planted on the Iron Throne and she controls more than a single area and is able to hold it, she's nothing more than a claimant (in the way that Stannis and Renly were). The Targ dynasty was overthrown a generation ago. There are a whole lot of people living in Westeros who never knew life under the Targs.

The North has claimed its independence under Robb and he reality is that there is no one in the south with the strength to bring them to heel. At this point, Dany is not in any position to do anything more than make demands for Jon to "bend the knee" before she even considers what he's telling her. She's lost a huge chunk of her allies and what forces she currently has are tied up in the fight with Cerci. She's got no men that she can afford to send North, especially with Winter arriving there. Sure she's got dragons, but as others have pointed out, she's got to be riding one for them to be of any use so while they can be considered weapons of mass destruction, their usefulness is actually a bit limited. Short of holding Jon hostage, she really doesn't have the kind of leverage that she's acting as if she has.

And yeah... having allied with the Greyjoys isn't going to win points at Winterfell.

I was also considering Missandei's little speech about how Dany earned the loyalty of former slaves like her and while I'm still not loving the "white savior" feel of the whole thing, it shows a really marked contrast in Dany's behavior. How much actual freedom Missandei of the Unsullied have (in their ability to walk away from Dany if they choose) is a debatable point, but she made a huge deal about how Dany had become the Queen that they follow by choice. It's a very marked contrast to her demanding loyalty from Jon, for whom she's done absolutely nothing and shows little interest in the serious issue that Jon is presenting to her. That to me doesn't make Dany "better" as a prospective ruler - she's got just as much a sense of entitlement (if not moreso) than everyone else who claimed to be the rightful ruler of Westeros. If anything we're seeing that the "rightful" ruler is just the person who manages to wrest and hold power at a given moment.

You are exactly correct about Dany being stubborn and demanding Jon bend the knee is in clear contrast to her former behavior.  She is not approaching Jon as his liberator, nor as his conqueror, and particularly NOT as a potential ally, which is stupid on her part.

He came to her as an equal, to ask for her help in HIS war, yet she demands he bend the knee, over and over  Dany is stubborn and implacable where Jon is concerned.  (To create tension, because, bad writing).

Judging by her hair color, Dany may be part Swedish.  As my mom used to say about my dad....."you can tell a Swede, but you can't tell him much!".    (Okay bad joke, but it fits!).

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That's one of the usual excuses we get for why Emilia Clarke is such a wooden actress, that she spends so much of her screen time reacting to inanimate object stand ins for the dragons. 

Emilia is not a wooden actress and I dare anyone to show the kind of affection she showed to whatever CGI puppies she carried in her arms in the earlier seasons when the dragons were babies. The show hasn't done Dany's character any favors - they've traded a lot of nuances with big bombastic stage pieces, e.g. her "desert madness" at the end of Dance with Dragons, or how when Dany rides Drogon for the first time, she's saving him not the other way around.  

Emilia has delivered solid gold with the material she's been given. In the last episode alone, we watched her go from giggly with Melisandre, to awed (and slightly horny) with Jon in the cave, to irate and suspicious at Tyrion, then pensive after talking to Jon, to Fire-and-blood at the battle field, to fear when Drogon was hit, to Spite when she nearly took out Bronn, to fear again when Jaimie charged her. And half of those scenes were with her on top of a rocking horse. 

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

That's on the shitty writing not Dany...

(I don't mean to pick on you, but you bring up good points I like to discuss.) :-)

I never understood this argument.  The characters ARE the writing.  The writers create the characters.  The characters are fictional.  So... yeah.  It's on Dany, because the writers wrote her that way.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In this example, I think you may have it backwards.  Or, I completely don't understand your example.  Dany wants the throne because her family had it 20 years ago.  Cersei has it now, and Dany wants it back.  Wouldn't Cersei be like the founding fathers of the USA who are new to ruling, and Dany, as the UK, says no - we want you back?  Then Jon is the Louisiana Purchase.  He wants Dany's help because she has the best resources, but he's like, "meh, we're all good here being independent but the Pirates of the Caribbean (White Walkers) are killing us."  So what Dany/UK should do is take care of the imminent threat - the threat that wants to kill everyone no matter who they pledge allegiance to - and then worry about taking back the USA/Westeros.  Cersei/USA will still be there when the WW are dead.  

And, Dany wasn't actually at war or engaged in any battles with Cersei until just the past two weeks.  It's not like she's been fighting them from the beginning and had allies die at the Battle of Blackwater Bay or at the Red Wedding.  She just jumped in now.  She could have listened to Jon first when he was pleading his case.  (And he does have something she needs - he controls nearly half of Westeros; she should have helped him first and then he'd be more keen on bending the knee.  Yes, I like Jon better and my bias might be showing through, but she is too stubborn for her own good.)

OK, I've confused myself.  :-)

Not to undercut what you said, but I do think you're glossing over a little piece of Dany's likely perspective a bit.  Cersei is the sister of the knight who slay her father, and likely more importantly, widow of the King who both rebelled against her father, slayed her brother -- and quite significantly, sent assassins after her. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Not to undercut what you said, but I do think you're glossing over a little piece of Dany's likely perspective a bit.  Cersei is the sister of the knight who slay her father, and likely more importantly, widow of the King who both rebelled against her father, slayed her brother -- and quite significantly, sent assassins after her. 

True, but if the WW kill them all first, then what was the point of any of it? ;-)

[FemmyV]

On 08/07/2017 at 5:39 AM, TarotQueen said:

My take on this is that LF is just recycling an old trick here, trying to instigate a new Stark/Lannister confrontation because that's in his interests.  It worked with Cat and Tyrion the first time right?  The 'someone very rich' was just so heavy handed on his part that I thought he had to intend to single someone out, and this is what I got from it.

Apologies if someone else has gotten there first in the five pages between the quoted post above and where this one will end up ...

Maybe he's heard about Bran's visions and is trying to direct them KL's way

[Hana Chan]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

True, but if the WW kill them all first, then what was the point of any of it? ;-)

And that's what it all really boils down to, isn't it. As Davos said, in the end it's not going to matter what corpse is rotting on the throne when the White Walkers make it past/through/around the Wall. 

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

 

And yeah, I'm going to bring up that dirty word - fanfiction - and say this is exactly where this "adaptation" shows it ass. Dany is a Targaryen and she's had Targaryen dreams and visions of this Approaching Doom. The show even pays homage to that during her sojourn in the House of the Undying. But somewhere along the line, D & D lost track of their continuity. Considering that they can't even remember that Missandei mentioned the Prophecy of the Prince/Princess that Was Promised in the last episode, maybe we can't blame them. 

 

Alas, D&D and staff can't keep track of continuity issues within one episode.

Rewatch Arya's scenes this episode.  Left handed Arya shows up at the Winterfell gate with Needle on her left hip (she fights left handed).  It stays on her left hip, through the crypts, and seeing Bran.

Then she shows up in the courtyard, all niced up with clean clothes and a new dagger.  And voila, Needle, her primary weapon, is magically on her right hip (for an easy draw for a southpaw), and the catspaw dagger is on her left hip, her back-up weapon.  So, continuity error, unless Arya, having rejoined the aristocracy, now has a personal dresser to place her weapons appropriately on her person.

[Katsullivan]

17 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In this example, I think you may have it backwards.  Or, I completely don't understand your example.  Dany wants the throne because her family had it 20 years ago.  Cersei has it now, and Dany wants it back.  Wouldn't Cersei be like the founding fathers of the USA who are new to ruling, and Dany, as the UK, says no - we want you back?  Then Jon is the Louisiana Purchase.  He wants Dany's help because she has the best resources, but he's like, "meh, we're all good here being independent but the Pirates of the Caribbean (White Walkers) are killing us."  So what Dany/UK should do is take care of the imminent threat - the threat that wants to kill everyone no matter who they pledge allegiance to - and then worry about taking back the USA/Westeros.  Cersei/USA will still be there when the WW are dead.  

 

But why should the UK want to save the Louisiana Purchase from the Pirates of the Caribbean if Louisiana is not a UK colony? And if Louisiana is that desperate for the UK help (for a situation that mind you, the UK only have Louisiana's word even exists) --- why the heck won't Louisiana agree to be a colony to get this much-needed help?  

Like, all you're doing is giving examples for why Jon's argument that he can't bend the knee, even if it would cost him Dany's help, don't make any sense and take the steam out of his ARMAGEDDON! warnings.

(Heck, even the show acknowledges this when Jon says "we're wasting time!" and Tyrion replies "it takes 5 seconds to bend the knee" and we get a convenient interruption.) 

 

17 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And, Dany wasn't actually at war or engaged in any battles with Cersei until just the past two weeks.  It's not like she's been fighting them from the beginning and had allies die at the Battle of Blackwater Bay or at the Red Wedding.  She just jumped in now.  She could have listened to Jon first when he was pleading his case.

Technically, Jon arrived after her allies's ships were attacked by Euron so time-wise, Dany's war with Cersei had already began.

Psychologically, you can argue that the Targaryens have been at War with the Baratheon Dynasty (which is Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne) since Robert's Rebellion.

Either way...

 

Quote

(And he does have something she needs - he controls nearly half of Westeros; she should have helped him first and then he'd be more keen on bending the knee.  Yes, I like Jon better and my bias might be showing through, but she is too stubborn for her own good.)

Jon has something that Dany can take. In war between the Northern Army vs 3 Dragons+Dothraki+Unsullied, the outcome is clear.

Heck, all she has to do is fly her dragons to Winterfell and torch it from the Sky.

Of course, Dany would prefer it if he pulled a Torrhen Stark and bent the knee and spared the casualties.  

Jon has no advantage in this situation. He has nothing to offer, and he has nothing to threaten her with. 

Dany is being almost annoyingly generous in her dealings with her enemies and would-be enemies this season. 

 

17 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

OK, I've confused myself.  :-)

LOL! 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Neko]

Okay, it wasn't stupid for Jaime to charge a fire-breathing dragon full-on.  I take it back. ;)

Perhaps I should clarify: I actually still kind of like Jaime and I want him to be redeemed, I just think he's made a TON of stupid choices lately, and it's hard to watch just how stupid he can be when we know he can be better than that.  Both Olenna and Tyrion, two of the smartest people on this show, have called him a fool.  His sick obsession with Cersei (won't call it love) has completely blinded him, and it's so disappointing to watch.  But, I'll ride it out because I still love the show and I actually trust D&D when it comes to redeeming characters, and what-not.  Maybe I'm  the fool. IDK.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Sweet Summer Child

[stagmania]

48 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

[super small voice]GRRM was in NYC meeting with his publisher[/super small voice]

I know it means nothing.

He was there to discuss the 4 prequels he has in the works. :/

[Katsullivan]

19 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

(I don't mean to pick on you, but you bring up good points I like to discuss.) :-)

I never understood this argument.  The characters ARE the writing.  The writers create the characters.  The characters are fictional.  So... yeah.  It's on Dany, because the writers wrote her that way.

(Thank you. I'm enjoying this, too.)

It's not Dany if Tyrion isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Davos isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. (Hey, gurl, my boy Jon here is single. Why don't we make love not war and we both get what we want?) And Varys isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Olenna, that oh-so-famous match-maker (she got her grand-daughter married to not one, but three Kings) isn't mentioning one.

So unless, we're arguing that every character on the show is suffering amnesia or forgetting the way this world works - and not just Dany even though she clearly knew that when she banished Daario to Mereen a few days ago (which is how long the Narrow Sea crossing takes) - then it's the writing, not the characters. 

3 minutes ago, stagmania said:

He was there to discuss the 4 prequels he has in the works. :/

Stab me in the heart, will you.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I know Jon is being called KitN, but isn't he also the king of the Vale or is that not a thing? When the north named Robb king, the territory also included the riverlands. Just something that's been nagging me. 

I don't think he is considered to be King of the Vale.

In the War of the Five Kings, House Tully and House Frey were already sworn bannermen  of House Stark, although the Riverlands (as is the Vale) were autonomous regions, and had previously sworn fealty to the Iron Throne.  House Tully is the Lord Paramount in the Riverlands (Frey's being a vassal of House Tully, and thus also sworn to support Tully causes).  Tully's joined Robb because family ties.  Frey was reluctantly enjoined...a mistake as it turned out.

Same deal with the Vale.  LF is Lord Regnant of the Vale.  A fact which Bronze Yohn Royce hates, hence, Lord Royce is hanging around Winterfell to keep an eye on LF.  The Vale remained staunchly independent during the Wot5K, even though Catelyn implored her sister to help House Stark's cause.  LF & Royce call Jon "Your Grace" out of courtesy.  I think the title of "King" of the Vale won't be settled until after the various factions in the current "war of succession" is complete.  Just my take.

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, stagmania said:

He was there to discuss the 4 prequels he has in the works. :/

*throws glass of wine against the wall* (it's water in a bottle and it's still on my table)

I enjoy the side material a lot, but I want Winds. I might actually cry if we ever get a release date on that.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It's OK. :)

It's not Dany if Tyrion isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Davos isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. (Hey, gurl, my boy Jon here is single. Why don't we make love not war and we both get what we want?) And Varys isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Olenna, that oh-so-famous match-maker (she got her grand-daughter married to not one, but three Kings) isn't mentioning one.

So unless, we're arguing that every character on the show is suffering amnesia or forgetting the way this world works - and not just Dany even though she clearly knew that when she banished Daario to Mereen a few days ago (which is how long the Narrow Sea crossing takes) - then it's the writing, not the characters. 

Stab me in the heart, will you.

Maybe she doesn't know yet that Jon is her only option?  Maybe it's a bit quick to rush into marriage?  Or maybe she's saving herself for Robin Arryn. ;-)

Prequels?!?!  I agree.  Why do we need prequels when the series isn't done yet??

[dragonsbite]

11 hours ago, Willowy said:

All I could think about when Bran gave the dagger over to Arya is "KEEP IT, MAN!"

He's going to need it when TNK reaches out those icy fingers to grab him. Or come on, at least make sure he's got several dragonglass daggers under those furs. 

His comment that the dagger is "Wasted on a cripple." is neither true, nor accurate. If anyone needs VS or dragonglass protection, it's someone who's especially vulnerable to attack from the dead.

I think he saw that Arya needs it. The look on his face and the way his hand paused as both she and he held the dagger during the hand-off made me think some vision hit him at that moment. Perhaps he saw some of the things she's done. But perhaps he saw some future event that she'll do with the dagger.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't have an awesome memory but this was a very dramatic sequence in season 3. You see Roz shot with arrows, Sansa crying with Shae as Littlefinger leaves on his ship, and Jon and Ygrette reaching the top of the wall and they kiss. All with that monolog which they used in the ad campaign.  I think it was a far callback. 

"Chaos is a Ladder" came from the same episode as the wildings reaching the top of The Wall.

The episode was called "The Climb".  The writers planted LF's line "Chaos is a Ladder" to not only reinforce the importance of the "climb" to the top of The Wall, but to use it to pay off a scene (this one) in a later episode.  Unfortunately, it was so much later that casual viewers didn't remember it.  Only us ASOIAF geeks knew exactly what it was about....kind of like the call-back to Stannis The Grammar Nazi's fondness for "fewer", which had me howling in laughter.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Well it looked like a lake. Drogon flew over a still lake. (Awesome shot of the wake caused by his tail)  Blackwater Rush is described as a fast moving deep river (thus the Rush part of the name) with treacherous currents.

And the loot train was stopped for rest. You wouldn't water your horses with salt water. So while they were near Blackwater Rush they weren't on Blackwater Rush.

Some of the limitations of filming. They needed a body of water that they could have 2 stuntmen fall into, and needed a huge piece of land with a slope.  

I wouldn't rule out that there was a lake or pond by the Blackwater Rush and that's where the scene starts. But they were by the Blackwater Rush, or near enough that in the heat of battle, that's the body of water Jaime was by when he was nearly dracarys-ed.  Perhaps we'll get confirmation next episode.  I have a feeling Bronn will be pulling Jaime out on the far side of the bank of Blackwater Rush, and that allows them to get away (Dany being distracted, etc.). 

[stagmania]

12 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

*throws glass of wine against the wall* (it's water in a bottle and it's still on my table)

I enjoy the side material a lot, but I want Winds. I might actually cry if we ever get a release date on that.

Completely with you. If he ever drops off a finished manuscript for Winds we'll know right away, because the publishers are gonna freak. 

12 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Prequels?!?!  I agree.  Why do we need prequels when the series isn't done yet??

Here's my armchair psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. 

I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by stagmania

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Completely with you. If he ever drops off a finished manuscript for Winds we'll know right away, because the publishers are gonna freak. 

Here's my armchair psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. 

I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay. 

I once watched 12 minutes of a Twilight movie.  Those are 12 minutes of my life I'm never getting back. ;-)  

He should write faster.  Or, he shouldn't have sold the rights to it to be made into a show yet, because he had to have known that it would pass him.  I hope he changes his mind and starts writing again.

Edited August 8, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Fix typo

[dragonsbite]

3 hours ago, Normades said:

I liked him too!  Just have to say I laughed like hell over the "Didn't they teach you that at fancy lad school?"  I hope to work that into a conversation someday soon!  

I used it that evening in a Facebook response to a friend. </ostentatiously polishes nails on sleeve>

[Katsullivan]

14 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Or maybe she's saving herself for Robin Arryn. ;-)

OMG! I just spat out my coffee! 

4 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Here's my armchair psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. 

I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay. 

OMG, that sounds true --- depressingly true.

[HLucrezia]

20 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

But why should the UK want to save the Louisiana Purchase from the Pirates of the Caribbean if Louisiana is not a UK colony? And if Louisiana is that desperate for the UK help (for a situation that mind you, the UK only have Louisiana's word even exists) --- why the heck won't Louisiana agree to be a colony to get this much-needed help?  

I'm very cautiously sticking my nose into the fray here (and watch me fall flat on my face as I do so)

But I think the why is the argument "If you don't help us stop our mutual enemy HERE where we have best chance of stopping them at all they will go THERE and kill you too". In this scenario the UK fighting on the Louisiana Purchase's soil would be an advantage to the UK as it poses the least risk the UKs people and assets. Those Pirates are a mutual enemy who will not stop with the Louisiana Territory. 

That said, you're right to point out that Dany doesn't really have enough proof to simply commit her army but I think allowing Jon to bring back proof, or sending an emissary to the North to find proof or at least as reasonable as demanding Jon bend the knee. I'm not saying that it's wrong of Dany to want Jon to the bend the knee. Of course she does. She has made no secret of the fact that she is there to conquer and claim but there are other options that are equally as reasonable and if Jon is telling the truth they are worth considering. 

[stagmania]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I once watched 12 minutes of a Twilight movie.  Those are 12 minutes of my life I'm never getting back. ;-)  

He should write faster.  Or, he shouldn't have sold the rights to it to be made into a show yet, because he had to have known that it would pass him.  I hope he changes his mind and starts writing again.

Ha! Definitely not a recommendation to read those books, just a comparable author situation.

And yeah, this is obviously different in that buddy did it to himself. But in the early seasons he seemed confident that he'd finish before they lapped him. Know thyself, George. 

[Francie]

10 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Completely with you. If he ever drops off a finished manuscript for Winds we'll know right away, because the publishers are gonna freak. 

Here's my armchair psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. 

I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  The show has played a huge role in his writer's block. 

I wish he would just own up to it, and just publish his outline as to what happened with each character. Wrap up the Westerling subplot, etc. 

I get the feeling that he means to come back to WoW and ADOS, but I truly hope he has a back up plan in case he doesn't get back to them.  

If the prequels are recent history and explain some of the events affecting today, I wouldn't mind. That's most of what I'm interested in -- Summerhal's destruction, the Aerys/Tyrion/Stefan friendship, etc. But if these prequels are about the life and times of Old Valyria, I'll take a hard pass.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie
Because autocorrect sucks