A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I'm still wondering what their Plan A was when they thought they'd still have Emma. The way they left it at the end of the season, there was a lot of ambiguity. We just knew there was a curse, Henry didn't have his memories, and his family needed him. But there were a lot of other plots they could have done from that springboard. Did they always plan Hyperion Heights, or was there some other way his family needed him, like going on a quest with Emma, Hook, and Regina to save the (offscreen) Charmings? Was Hook always going to be Wish Hook, or did that just come about as a way to keep Colin without breaking up Emma and Hook?

I'm sure Emma and Hook would have gotten together in HH, just like David and Mary Margaret. But, there'd be a lot of angst over Cursed!Emma being married to Cursed!August. (or worse - Roni.)

Edited November 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Plans? What plans? Here is Adelaide Kane discussing her knowledge or rather lack thereof about Ivy's being awake (bolding mine):

EW: Drizella is actually awake! Did you know this twist in advance?
ADELAIDE KANE: No. No. No. I had no idea. I probably would’ve approached the previous episodes a little differently, but I’m kind of glad I didn’t because it gives me a really wide range of what’s she putting on and what isn’t she putting on, like what from the last four episodes was actually genuine and then what was just an act? Was it all an act? Were there moments of real genuine emotion and feeling and backstory there or has she just been full of sh— this entire time?

See it's impossible for the audience to know what was real or not because the actress didn't know and thus, there is no looking at previous appearances to gather clues. She was playing it entirely straight. She even says she would have played it differently. I know that she follows that by saying she's "kind of glad" that she didn't know, but her mentioning that there is no way of telling when she's being sincere or not just shows how dumb it is not to tell the actor major details like this. But wait there's more she doesn't know (again the bolding is mine):

EW: Now knowing that she’s awake, can we trust anything she says?
ADELAIDE KANE: I probably wouldn’t, but then I wouldn’t have trusted her before I knew she was awake. But I do think that she’s not one-dimensional. All of this pain comes from somewhere. This motivation isn’t just coming out of thin air, nobody’s evil for the sake of being evil. There was a path that led her down this road, and whether it was a path of her choosing or whether it was one she was forced into or been manipulated into, remains to be seen. I don’t even know at this point.

So she didn't know her character was awake and she doesn't know her motivation. I don't think she even knows who cast the curse. She doesn't have a grasp of the character she's playing without this information. They seem to be going script to script and as the actress has more knowledge about it, the character will start acting differently even though she should be acting exactly the same. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

28 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But, there'd be a lot of angst over Cursed!Emma being married to Cursed!August.

OMG!!! You are sooooo right. Thanks for leaving, JMo!! I could not have handled it. Or more sleeping-with-other-people-while-cursed scenarios.

26 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

They seem to be going script to script and as the actress has more knowledge about it, the character will start acting differently even though she should be acting exactly the same. 

That's exactly what happed with the Zarian reveal. The Marian actress, Christie Laing, was playing it straight until the reveal episode, where she suddenly added signs that she was a shady charatcer. It just made it even more obvious how messed up the writing for that part was!

Edited November 11, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

53 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's exactly what happed with the Zarian reveal. The Marian actress, Christie Laing, was playing it straight until the reveal episode, where she suddenly added signs that she was a shady charatcer. It just made it even more obvious how messed up writing was!

And it shows that they haven't learned a thing.  Or more precisely, they still don't see that Zarian "twist" as problematic in any way.

 

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

Plans? What plans? Here is Adelaide Kane discussing her knowledge or rather lack thereof about Ivy's being awake (bolding mine):

EW: Drizella is actually awake! Did you know this twist in advance?
ADELAIDE KANE: No. No. No. I had no idea. I probably would’ve approached the previous episodes a little differently

I really can't help but laugh at this point.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Camera One

[hockeycat400]

I'm dealing with this season.  Overall it's not terrible.  (Full disclosure:  I will watch this show no matter how bad it gets, as long as Colin's on.)  

The new characters...so far I am liking (or at least accepting) most of them.  However, I absolutely cannot stand Jacinderella.   I don't know if it's the writing, her bad acting, or the severe lack of chemistry with Henry...it's probably a combination of all three.     I actually find myself rooting for Victoria when she has an argument with Jacinderella.    Ugh.    I keep asking myself if it's too late to change Henry's TL to Tiana.

[KingOfHearts]

Tremaine, Alice, Rumple, Lucy, Ivy, Mophead, and Regina have all been woken up to some capacity. It's not much of a curse, is it? Henry, Murderella, WHook, and Tiana are the only ones still left in the dark. I don't understand the point of giving everyone cursed personalities when they're either awake or just carbon copies of their former selves.

Edited November 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

15 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Tremaine, Alice, Rumple, Lucy, Ivy, Mophead, and Regina have all been woken up to some capacity. It's not much of a curse, is it? Henry, Murderella, WHook, and Tiana are the only ones still left in the dark. I don't understand the point of giving everyone cursed personalities when they're either awake or just carbon copies of their former selves.

At this point, it's like they're planning to wake one person an episode, and then they'll figure out what to do in the second half?

[Camera One]

I just realized the last time we got a cooking montage (before the beignet one), was Regina making that apple turnover.  Why did Regina chop up the whole apple?  I would have frozen some for future use.  Unless she made enough turnover for her other fav's in the town like Mary Margaret, David, Grumpy, Granny, etc.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

32 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think that, increasingly, it was a mistake to make this new revival such a copy of season 1. Now that we already saw season one, we can constantly compare it to this season...and see how it falls so short. Charming and Snow were epic. We saw their love in the flashbacks, and their pain at being separated in the present. Here, we see some awkward flirting in the past (between thefts and murder attempts) and more awkward flirting in the present. Epic?

Yeah, inviting comparisons to their most successful season was a recipe for disappointment. Either they needed to up their game and top season one, or they needed to put some truly surprising twist on the season one formula, and it needed to be evident from the start because they can't expect the audience to stick around to wait for some twist at the end. Making the series be in the city instead of a small town isn't enough of a twist. Hyperion Heights is so blah. It's possible to frame a city in a way that makes it seem like something in a fairytale, as we saw in the way they filmed Portland in Grimm. But Hyperion Heights has less charm and personality than a generic Hollywood back lot street scene. It's not really the kind of neighborhood that tends to get gentrified. Those neighborhoods are more colorful, have interesting old buildings that can be renovated into expensive apartments or lofts, have some kind of street life. This neighborhood is too bland for anyone to bother gentrifying it. There's nothing in it to make someone say, "Hey, if you fixed up this building, it would be really nice."

And then there's the situation around apparently repeating the Dark Curse. Let's face it, the Dark Curse has always been a bit of a handwave plot device to put fairytale characters in modern America. As a means of revenge, it's pretty lame. In Regina's case, she sent her enemies to a world with air conditioning and indoor plumbing, to live mildly unsatisfying lives without realizing that they were being tormented or remembering what they lost, while she lives a monotonous Groundhog Day existence. But at least they bothered setting it all up. Rumple was the one who wanted the curse cast and tricked Regina into thinking it would give her what she wanted. She didn't know what she would really be getting. It was also a last-gasp, last resort, Hail Mary pass at getting her revenge. She'd already made multiple attempts at getting Snow killed, only to fail. She'd labeled Snow an outlaw bandit, and the people sided with Snow. She'd tried the sleeping curse, and it was broken. She fought a war and lost, ending up losing her position (so why do they still call her Queen? UGH!) and was magically prevented from harming Snow in that world. Snow had won and had her happily ever after. Only then did Regina resort to the curse. It did take all season to get all that information, but we knew in the pilot that there had been a sleeping curse and that Snow had won, so we got that sense of desperation to begin with.

With Drizella, it makes a lot less sense. She was getting revenge on her mother, but the curse made her mother wealthy and powerful and in control, with Drizella/Ivy as her assistant, under her thumb. Victoria still has her memories and is still working toward raising Anastasia. It doesn't look much like effective revenge. While her motivation is a bit sympathetic, she jumped straight to the Dark Curse without trying anything else. She didn't try siding with or helping the resistance movement, didn't try bringing down her mother in any other way, didn't interfere with her raising Anastasia. It would have worked better if we'd built up to her deciding to cast the curse rather than her just jumping straight to it. And then it must have taken about ten years for her to get around to casting it, unless there's something about Lucy we don't know, like she isn't actually Henry's daughter, like Ella got pregnant when she was younger, her stepmother gave the baby away, and now Henry helps Ella find her again, and she now looks to him as a father.

When they're so obviously paralleling the two seasons, it's way too easy to compare, and so far, the comparisons have fallen short.

[Rumsy4]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And then it must have taken about ten years for her to get around to casting it, unless there's something about Lucy we don't know, like she isn't actually Henry's daughter, like Ella got pregnant when she was younger, her stepmother gave the baby away, and now Henry helps Ella find her again, and she now looks to him as a father.

That would certainly be one way to explain the lack of ageing of the adults, without another Realm-hopping.

[Camera One]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And then it must have taken about ten years for her to get around to casting it, unless there's something about Lucy we don't know, like she isn't actually Henry's daughter, like Ella got pregnant when she was younger, her stepmother gave the baby away, and now Henry helps Ella find her again, and she now looks to him as a father.

I can totally see A&E stealing that idea and using it to write out Jacinda and Lucy in such a way that it's still a "happily ever after", maybe even revealing Lucy's real father and Jacinda's real true love, so Henry isn't obligated to stick around.  They need to do something right away, not wait until the Season 7 finale for this.  At the same time, Victoria needs to have a permanent migraine and someone needs to push her off a cliff since she is failing just as much as Cinderella, if I can use the words from the older, far superior Lady Tremaine.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Perhaps Lucy is a product of the curse, and if it breaks she disappears or dies.

[Rumsy4]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Perhaps Lucy is a product of the curse, and if it breaks she disappears or dies.

We saw her at the end of Season 6, though, pre-curse. I'm more and more convinced she was adopted by Henry and Jacinda. Ten years is too long for them all to be stuck in Alt!EF before coming to HH. 

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

At the same time, Victoria needs to have a permanent migraine and someone needs to push her off a cliff since she is failing just as much as Cinderella

She is not good. She doesn't have presence, and her motives and actions don't seem to match up all that well. I really hope Ivy gets her revenge on her mother soon so we can all move on. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Rumsy4 said:

We saw her at the end of Season 6, though, pre-curse. I'm more and more convinced she was adopted by Henry and Jacinda. Ten years is too long for them all to be stuck in Alt!EF before coming to HH. 

Meh. I forgot about that. That flashback at the end of S6 really ruins a lot of the mystery surrounding Lucy's character. I think it's silly that A&E would cast an actress with the same ethnicity just so people would believe Jacinda is her biological mother, only for Lucy to be adopted. However, that's exactly something they would do.

[Rumsy4]

It would be funny if the only reason Henry and Cinderella got together was becasue they wanted to be Lucy's parents. Because I'm not seeing any believable romantic chemistry between the two.

[ParadoxLost]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Meh. I forgot about that. That flashback at the end of S6 really ruins a lot of the mystery surrounding Lucy's character. I think it's silly that A&E would cast an actress with the same ethnicity just so people would believe Jacinda is her biological mother, only for Lucy to be adopted. However, that's exactly something they would do.

I'm a believer in the adoption theory.  But I suppose its possible that Cinderella had a child that was stolen from her by evil stepmother (or she gave up the baby to protect her) and Henry is the step parent while Jancinda is the biological parent.

I think that may be more likely at this point.  

But I may be grasping because its a reasonable way to get a do over on Henry's true love and explain Cinderella's disinterest in Henry.

Just to make my head explode with timeline nonsense, Gideon will end up as the biological father.

Edited November 14, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Gideon will end up as the biological father.

That would be something... :-D

[Camera One]

The problem with Henry adopting Lucy outright is there would be no way to get Lucy and Jacinda off the show without making Henry look like a jerk stepfather.  I suppose they could kill off Jacinda and keep Lucy on, but that might be too sad since this show is all about hope.  Or maybe they could have Henry go with Jacinda to the End of Realms and spend an episode there, they lived a full life together but Authors never die, so problem solved.

[ParadoxLost]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The problem with Henry adopting Lucy outright is there would be no way to get Lucy and Jacinda off the show without making Henry look like a jerk stepfather.  I suppose they could kill off Jacinda and keep Lucy on, but that might be too sad since this show is all about hope.  Or maybe they could have Henry go with Jacinda to the End of Realms and spend an episode there, they lived a full life together but Authors never die, so problem solved.

Unless the biological father returns and it turns out he and Jacinda are true love, and he did not leave them intentionally, and Henry selflessly steps aside to let them be a family.

At this point, neither Lucy/Henry as father/daughter or Jacinda/Henry as true love is working so if they don't oversell the flashbacks too much, they could write them out.

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

At this point, neither Lucy/Henry as father/daughter or Jacinda/Henry as true love is working

I agree. I don't buy Lucy and Henry's supposed child-parent relationship either. At most, he seems like a concerned acquaintance. 

[KAOS Agent]

Bringing this over from the spoiler thread:

Quote

The male representation this season sucks.

I've wondered why they didn't add at least one new male recurring character this season and I've settled on the idea that they needed/wanted Henry to be the romantic male lead and adding a hot, charismatic side character from the start might pull interest from his "epic" romance with Cinderella. West is serviceable and good looking, but he's not going to set the world on fire even if the storyline was truly epic. He doesn't have that it factor. They are also hampered by the idea that the audience has spent six seasons seeing Henry as a kid and it's hard to make the jump to seeing him as a hot romantic lead. They needed to limit his competition in show. Both Hook & Rumpel have love interests even if Wish!Hook is technically a free agent, so they aren't a problem. But let's say they introduce a really hot Flynn Ryder in the premiere and the audience sees him sparking with Jacinda and Ivy and Sabine and Regina. That could be a problem because their central romance is eclipsed by this new character's insane chemistry with everything that moves. 

However, Henry/Cinderella has largely fizzled with the audience and Cinderella is widely disliked, so why not introduce something new and set up a hot male villain and have him hook up with Ivy for a villainous power couple? Or add a gray character who works in the police department with Weaver & Rogers. Bring back the S1 mystery aspect and let the audience try to figure out if he's a fairy tale character or not and if he is, which one he is. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

In Season 7, we have 7 new female characters (so far): Jacinda, Victoria, Ivy, Lucy, Alice, Tiana and Mophead.

It is in the returning character arena where there are 3 "legacy" male characters vs. only 1 "legacy" female character.

In Season 1, we had 6 strong characters who took up the main screentime - Snow, Emma and Regina on the female side, and Henry, Rumple and Charming on the male side, so we got to know them very well very quickly.  In Season 7, there are 11 characters with varying amounts of screentime.  Even if you deduct Alice, Tiana and Mophead (since they are clearly supporting), that still leaves 8 main characters vying for screentime.  Add to that we had two episodes dealing with wrapping up Emma and Belle's storylines, and the seventh season spreads all the characters pretty thin.

As you said, Andrew J. West is fine, but he doesn't have Emma's presence as a main protagonist, nor Charming's presence as a love interest, and he's supposed to be a combination of those two characters.  Jacinda is supposed to be the new Snow, and Victoria is supposed to be the new Regina, and no more needs to be said about those two.  Lucy doesn't have the vulnerability and the sadness of Henry.  Rumple is Rumple except we're bored of him by now, and Mophead is intriguing but doesn't hold a candle to the imp.  So on every single count, it's a pale imitation all around.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Camera One

[Mitch]

11 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

However, Henry/Cinderella has largely fizzled with the audience and Cinderella is widely disliked, so why not introduce something new and set up a hot male villain and have him hook up with Ivy for a villainous power couple? Or add a gray character who works in the police department with Weaver & Rogers. Bring back the S1 mystery aspect and let the audience try to figure out if he's a fairy tale character or not and if he is, which one he is. 

 

That is what the show has always missed...a villain power couple..(no A & E...Rump and the EQ and their "Always had a thing" thing doesn't count..) I thought they were going to do that with the EQ and Hyde... and they dumped that.  If the villains team up its always a case where they end of trying to screw the other out...why not have a villain couple with the same agenda..who are really into each other? Why do the villains all have to be from their realm...why not have a bad guy from the LWOM who discovers Ivy's secret and he wants to bring magic here so he can harness it for his own evil ends...if they are going in a different direction..and I think it was time they did..lets really go balls out and do something different, no the same old same old in a "urban" hood this time. 

Besides, I always thought Regina should find love with a no nonsense guy from this world, who isnt interested in telling her she is bold and audacious but is still into her. Maybe a cop who discovers something is amiss in his old neighborhood which he comes back to after a few years.

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I thought they were going to do that with the EQ and Hyde... and they dumped that. 

I'll never be over this!! @KingOfHearts will understand. :-p

14 minutes ago, Mitch said:

Besides, I always thought Regina should find love with a no nonsense guy from this world, who isnt interested in telling her she is bold and audacious but is still into her.

The problem is, then Regina wouldn't be interested in him. But I agree that Regina's romantic partner should be someone she hasn't victimized in some way. So, someone from another Realm (like Hyde) or the Real World. 

[InsertWordHere]

Oh man, Hyde and the long-haired Regina had so much potential. Another lost opportunity. Villain power couples can be so much fun, just look at Spike and Dru from Buffy. 

[jhlipton]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

In Season 7, there are 11 characters with varying amounts of screentime.  Even if you deduct Alice, Tiana and Mophead (since they are clearly supporting), that still leaves 8 main characters vying for screentime

It doesn't help that they are doing "centrics" which focus on just one character.  One of the many things Brooklyn 99 does well is changing up the teams, so A and B, C and D, and E and F work together one week, then A and C, B and F and D and E work together the next.  How the teams work together gives insight into all the characters.

[KAOS Agent]

S1 used the centric format and they still managed to develop the main characters as well as flesh out many different side characters. The leads included Emma, Henry, Regina, David, Snow & Rumpel. Raphael Sbarge was also a regular in S1 and Archie had his centric early on. We knew all of their basic stories by episode 6. But let's examine how big the Once community was at that point. Recurring characters we knew included Graham, Ruby, Granny, Grumpy, Geppetto, Sidney, Whale & Kathryn. These characters inhabited a community and we saw them frequently as they were woven into the stories being told. They weren't the focus, but that's a large group of characters that the audience knew. They didn't show up for one episode never to be seen again. Even those one and done characters gave us the impression that this was a town filled with fairy tale characters. Remember trying to sell candles to Jack Sprat? Small touches like this did not require a big budget, but still added to the overall idea of the curse.

This season has Regina, Hook, Rumpel, Henry, Cinderella, Lucy, Tremaine, Ivy and Tiana as the mains, but where is the rest of the community? Mophead & Alice are the only two I can think of and they don't interact with all of the characters as part of Hyperion Heights. S1 would have had recurring characters buying dinner at Mr Clucks or grabbing drinks at Roni's. We'd see them out and about even though they aren't a part of the main story. Snow & Whale went out to dinner at Granny's where Ruby was working. I don't even think Ruby had lines during the date, but she was there right where you'd expect her to be. This season they can't even manage to integrate the main characters stories with each other much less add others. Thus, we're stuck thinking that there's only like ten people involved in this curse.

[Katherine]

I've barely watched this season. I have all the episodes recorded, and I've skimmed some of them, but this season seems like a bit of a chore to watch, which is sad considering how much I used to obsess over the show. I'm relieved that they gave Emma and Hook their happily ever after, but at the same time, it does make me feel much less invested in Whook's story. I like the idea of him having a daughter, but it isn't enough to hold my interest, considering this is a completely different character than the one I've been watching for six seasons.

I almost wonder if it would have been better if they had found a way to separate Captain Swan for the season and then somehow show them being reunited in the finale. I get that this would have been difficult without a guaranteed appearance from Jmo in the finale, but I think they could've found a way around it. I still like the idea of some type of time travel, Fringe type final season where things go wrong in the premiere, and Hook spends the season trying to fix them and ends up going back in time and correcting that moment (so he is reunited with Emma in the finale). Then again, I would've been nervous that the writers would somehow mess it up and leave Captain Swan up in the air, so I think overall I'm good with how they handled it. But I can't stop wondering what casual viewers who missed episode 7×02 and/or the wishverse episode are thinking during Whook scenes. They must be so confused about why he suddenly has a daughter and why there's no mention of Emma.

Also, I know there have been a lot of posts here trying to figure out the timeline, but  what's the consensus on whether the show will clearly explain it at some point? Is there any hope that the timeline actually makes sense? Or are the writers going to ignore it completely and let it remain a total mess? 

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, Katherine said:

But I can't stop wondering what casual viewers who missed episode 7×02 and/or the wishverse episode are thinking during Whook scenes. They must be so confused about why he suddenly has a daughter and why there's no mention of Emma.

That's a good point.  Though Whook hasn't really mentioned the daughter since 7x02 and most of his scenes are present-day in Hyperion Heights on the missing persons case.  Viewers who missed 7x02 would actually have zero indication that the guy we're seeing is not Real Hook.

[Rumsy4]

55 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Also, I know there have been a lot of posts here trying to figure out the timeline, but  what's the consensus on whether the show will clearly explain it at some point? Is there any hope that the timeline actually makes sense? Or are the writers going to ignore it completely and let it remain a total mess? 

I think we all pretty much know the writers are never going to explain the timeline. Because they can't. 

[Camera One]

From the Spoiler thread (but without spoilers)

8 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Honestly, I haven't followed season 7 news very closely.... I hope he gets to show more of a fun side some other way, then. I remember liking Hook as a character and enjoying his story even before he got together with Emma, so it would be nice if the writers used Whook as an opportunity to explore some of the non-Emma related things that made Hook a fun and compelling character. As it stands right now (from the limited bits of the season I've seen), there hasn't been much in the way of giving Whook characterization beyond his seach for his daughter. While I loved CS, because of all the obstacles they faced (particularly in the last two seasons), Hook tended to be kind of gloomy and grumpy, and we didn't always get to see his lighter side or his character development beyond his relationship with Emma, IMO.

So far, the Whook stuff in Hyperion Heights feels like he joined the cast of a really boring cop show.  That whole tattoo with a wheel thing is not intriguing at all.  They're not successful at building a compelling mystery with actual clues that make sense.  

None of the characters are really having much fun.  Which is on par with the show in recent years.   I suppose it's good they're not in dire life-and-death situations every week, and it's sad that they needed a brand new cast to provide that.  

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching clips from S3, and just scene-by-scene the tone is so different. S7 is depressing, not just because its dark, realistic, or serious, but because there's so little... hope. There's nothing to wish for. Belle's dead, Cinderella is a murderer at heart, Rogers is actually old fat Hook who never found love like Emma, Regina's life has been reduced to hovering over Adult!Henry, and if the curse breaks something "bad" will happen. The only really "hopeful" thing in the whole season so far is WHook looking for his daughter. There's nothing else to root for, which is a shame because I'm not invested in WHook's storyline at all. I think the missing daughter plot is generic and contrived. It was just thrown in there so his character would have a motivation.

Edited November 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

There's nothing else to root for

Totally rooting for Rumple to die. And go to the Bad Place. 

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The only really "hopeful" thing in the whole season so far is WHook looking for his daughter.

That's an excellent point. WHook reuniting with his daughter is pretty much the only good result to expect with the breaking the Curse. (Many of us would cheer if Jacinda died, but that's not what the writers intended). Everything else is gloom and doom, as usual. The Show has turned completely bleak over the last couple of seasons. There's very little spark of hope or humor, coupled with a complete lack of payoff for the depressive storylines.  

[cappoe]

On 11/11/2017 at 2:34 PM, Camera One said:

At this point, it's like they're planning to wake one person an episode, and then they'll figure out what to do in the second half?

Probably because they know the show is ending they'll now have to rush to the finish line.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

At this point, it's like they're planning to wake one person an episode, and then they'll figure out what to do in the second half?

You know, they could probably circumvent the consequences of breaking the curse by just waking each person one at a time. 

[Mabinogia]

I think we're supposed to be rooting for Henry and Murderella to get together so Lucy gets her family back but since I can't stand Lucy or Murderella I am actually rooting for Henry to get together with pretty much anyone else including his own mother. I think we're supposed to be rooting for Victoria to be defeated but since I don't actually know what evil thing she's actually doing I don't know what I'm meant to be rooting for. I'm rooting for Ivy. Not sure what the deal with Rumple is. I kind of try forgetting he's on the show. 

So, in closing, what I am hopeful for is that Henry meets someone new, or falls in love with Ivy, Tiana, Regina, Alice, Rapunzel, the witch in the tower, Whook, Zelina, anyone who isn't that boring, whiney void. Other than that, my hope is the show is cancelled, freeing up some of these actors to do anything else. 

[cappoe]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

 

So, in closing, what I am hopeful for is that Henry meets someone new, or falls in love with Ivy, Tiana, Regina, Alice, Rapunzel, the witch in the tower, Whook, Zelina, anyone who isn't that boring, whiney void. Other than that, my hope is the show is cancelled, freeing up some of these actors to do anything else. 

Well at least you'll get that this season.

[Camera One]

Adam has been avoiding direct contact on Twitter lately, but he took time to reply to this....

@butroniii  Nov 14

Is enma giving her baby to Regina

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA

Replying to @butroniii  Who’s enma?

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:56 PM, KAOS Agent said:

S1 used the centric format and they still managed to develop the main characters as well as flesh out many different side characters.

I think it helped that even when the backstory was very centric, the present day story tended to be more of an ensemble thing, or at least we had Emma, our central character, interacting with just about everyone in most episodes. She lived with Mary Margaret, she worked with Graham, she met up with Henry, clashed with Regina, had to deal with David, ate at Granny's and ran into Ruby there, etc. Even in a centric without any of the other characters (other than Rumple) like Archie's, that present-day story involved the entire town and moved forward the curse plot and the Emma vs. Regina clash, in addition to Archie's personal growth. Even when there were subplots like the David and Mary Margaret affair, they tended to tie back to the curse and involve a lot of other characters -- that affair came about because they were resisting the cursed memories and Regina kept throwing in things to keep them apart. Emma got dragged into the drama, and the whole town ended up taking sides.

Compare that to Rogers' search for the missing girl. It doesn't seem to be related to the curse, since WHook was already looking for his missing daughter. Rogers thinks Victoria has something to do with hiding the info, but WHook didn't seem to connect Lady Tremaine to it, so maybe there's nothing there. He's not really working with anyone else to find her. He and Henry haven't become friends who hang out at Roni's and talk about the case, none of the other characters are helping him, he's hiding his work from Weaver. It's about the only story line in the show right now in which someone wants something and is taking logical steps toward getting it, and it's utterly isolated from everything else going on in the show.

What we need are those tertiary characters, who could essentially be familiar extras, and that shouldn't strain the budget. They've got people playing cops in the police station, so those people should be the king's guards or Lady Tremaine's goons in the flashbacks. Jacinda has a boss and a co-worker, so those actors should also play roles in the fairytale world. There are occasionally other people in Roni's, and we should see them in flashbacks. We should see the other resistance members in Hyperion Heights, or maybe see signs of them. There should have been a shoe store where that old man worked, for instance.

It would also have helped if, say, Jacinda and Sabine were waitresses at Roni's instead of being off in other jobs. That gives a reason for everyone to be hanging out in one place together and would mean all the characters would interact. Rogers could chat with the others about his case, and it would have established enough of a relationship with Jacinda that we could see how he would have been able to help her get the truck.

[daxx]

25 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It would also have helped if, say, Jacinda and Sabine were waitresses at Roni's instead of being off in other jobs. That gives a reason for everyone to be hanging out in one place together and would mean all the characters would interact

OUAT the cheers edition. 

[Shanna Marie]

16 minutes ago, daxx said:

OUAT the cheers edition. 

Or Granny's 2.0, like when Ruby worked there, so there were two recurring characters on staff, and then everyone else hung out there. It's weird to have a restaurant/bar be the central meeting area for the show and have a major character work at another restaurant.

[KingOfHearts]

I think it's all made more complicated by the fact Alice and Tiana are new characters we've never seen on the parent show. The writers are not fully committed to the alternate universes idea. If they were, we'd see Ashley bump into Jacinda or there'd be more than one alternate counterpart for a character. There's no reason for the Alternate Forest even to exist other than "we're running out of Disney icons". Why couldn't Tiana be from Enchanted Forest Prime? Or heck, even the Wish Realm? Instead of the whole Clorinda thing, why couldn't Drizella be Ashley's step-sister? Or better yet, Anastasia's from OUATIW? The writers are focusing on characters that weren't even fleshed out in the first place. You don't absolutely need the Alternate Forest for this storyline to work. You just need better planning.

If the writers were going to use WHook anyway, why didn't they just focus S7 on the Wish Realm? Wish!Rumple could have cast some new curse or even Wish!Regina, since according to A&E she's still alive and banished somewhere. As much as I despised the Wish Realm, it still makes more sense than another AU altogether. It still has a lot of potential.

Edited November 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

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It would also have helped if, say, Jacinda and Sabine were waitresses at Roni's instead of being off in other jobs.

I fully expected that when we got the first photos of the season.  There are so many silos of characters who have not interacted with each other, even the ones who supposedly see each other a lot.  We still haven't had a single scene with Victoria and Lucy at home, for example.  

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If the writers were going to use WHook anyway, why didn't they just focus S7 on the Wish Realm? Wish!Rumple could have cast some new curse or even Wish!Regina, since according to A&E she's still alive and banished somewhere. As much as I despised the Wish Realm, it still makes more sense than another AU altogether. It still has a lot of potential.

It was because A&E wanted less "baggage".  They didn't want to build on the existing Cinderella (or Alice, or any other future repeats they dredge up in the future).  They wanted to start from scratch.  If anything, Whook and the Wish Realm were things that they were forced to revisit because Jennifer Morrison left.  Up to now, in Season 7, everything except Whook is all about this Brand New Realm of Story that is inhabited by NuCinders, NuAlice, etc.  It still makes no sense why Whook's daughter would be in this New Realm.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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It was because A&E wanted less "baggage".  They didn't want to build on the existing Cinderella (or Alice, or any other future repeats they dredge up in the future).  They wanted to start from scratch.  If anything, Whook and the Wish Realm were things that they were forced to revisit because Jennifer Morrison left.  Up to now, in Season 7, everything except Whook is all about this Brand New Realm of Story that is inhabited by NuCinders, NuAlice, etc.  It still makes no sense why Whook's daughter would be in this New Realm.

Well, there was that Rumpbelle episode with Gideon and 

Spoiler

we're getting Zelena and Robyn back.

You're right in that they wanted to start from scratch, but I really don't think viewers can understand what's going on so far without the "baggage". It doesn't feel as much like a reboot to me as much as like retreading but this time sucking ten times more. It's a watered down version of what the show's been doing for the past four seasons. 

It's funny that the marketing department kindly reminded us in the 7x06 promo that Regina was the Evil Queen. If you hadn't seen past seasons, you'd be wondering how Henry's mom or Roni could be so terrible. You'd wonder what the Dark Curse is and what all it entailed. Since Lucy told us Hyperion Heights was cursed, wouldn't it be kind of a bombshell to find out Regina cast one of her own years ago? I feel like that would be an important part of the backstory, because without it Ivy wouldn't have been able to cast her own. (And we wouldn't have the HH premise.)

Edited November 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Well, there was that Rumpbelle episode with Gideon and 

I think for A&E, the returning characters are exceptions.  They love writing another sob story for Rumple.... their concern is not with new viewers not knowing the background. 

Their concern is not being bothered to revisit things that originally bored them   Thus, they mainly wanted a do-over with their non-returnees, like Cinderella, or Alice.  They want total freedom when they want to re-do some boring hero character again, and you can get that in a Brand new "Realm of Story".

Edited November 17, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I'm especially confused by the Hook/Rapunzel encounter in the promo. I don't know how it could fit into everything. If Rapunzel is Mophead, how could this happen years ago unless it's Hook Prime? Is this Regina or Clone Queen? How does WHook's lover and his daughter work into it? My head hurts.

I think the two hours will mostly just be a waste of time. The story will only move forward in the last five minutes.

[Rumsy4]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

If Rapunzel is Mophead, how could this happen years ago

It's all fake memories, but real people. Except for Snow and Charming. It's so funny how they died. Lolz. 

[Camera One]

We haven't had one scenes where we see how Whook interacted with Regina and Henry, with them knowing he's actually not Real Hook but someone else.  It surely couldn't have been automatic trust?  It's ridiculous how they totally skipped over that and in Episode 3, we had the three of them walking into that Resistance Camp.  

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We haven't had one scenes where we see how Whook interacted with Regina and Henry, with them knowing he's actually not Real Hook but someone else.  It surely couldn't have been automatic trust?  It's ridiculous how they totally skipped over that and in Episode 3, we had the three of them walking into that Resistance Camp.  

Henry: "I need you to get rid of Fake Hook. He won't shut up about his daughter."
Regina: "Well, I could send him on a pointless quest to get a fake Macguffin in a distant realm."
Henry: "Like what?"
Regina: "I don't know. An enchanted frying pan in French Rapunzel's tower or something."

Edited November 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

And why on earth does WHook care about the resistance??! Maybe the naval recon mission was just a dumb excuse he knew those idiots would buy, and he's off looking for his daughter.